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Comments
OAC, you are very observant. Yes, I am an attorney by training, but also own and manage a financial services/investment firm. And my investment philosophy tends to run to the "value" side. I guess that predilection is what moved me from a BMW/MB owner to a Lexus owner. :-)
have you ever seen that wedge hit a LEXUS LS in the side?...I though not...But even so you would rather be in the S...
That seems like blind loyality to a Brand name.
I would want to see that wedge hit a lexus before I made statements about which car I would rather be in...
Of course I would also like to find out how many wedge shaped cars there were out there.
do you know how much money and time Lexus spends on Safety testing?...Do you know what tests they use? Do you even know that safety first is NOT their first philosophy..(Lord knows it is not design)
Do you think it makes sense to make these comments without knowing the above?
You are right Lexus is not on the same level as the german automakers....they are on a higher level and going higher yet...With hybred technology just a year and a half away from the LS...it is going to be hard on the Germans to maintain that tiny $30 million profit at Mercedes.
Darn too late he left before I could thank him for his contribution.
I would have thought that a true auto "enthusiast" wouldn't care much about the "badge" or the origins of a car (i.e., whether it has been "rebadged"). I thought all that would matter are the physical characteristics of the car itself...handling, acceleration, styling, etc.
Why should a true enthusiast care so much about what badge is on the hood?
These cars had the reputation of running for hundreds of thousands of miles with only minor service. They also leased at very good rates due to high re-sale. At this time in the LA area there was a shift from Caddy to MB in the high rent district. Having owned 2 Caddies, 2 MB's and 2 Lexus' (Lexi?), I think I can differentiate between perception and reality.
The Caddies were great riding boats whose quality issues as the best of the American cars chased people to imports.
The MB's while very solid and much better build quality, were far from bullet proof. They were a big step up from the American cars and it was true that if you handled the repairs as they came up, you could keep it on the road for many miles.
Lexus cars became the new standard for reliability and to me are about as bullet proof as one can get. I had the original GS300 and only did oil changes for the 60K and 4 years I had it. Absolutely nothing ever went wrong.
In the end I think the bar has been raised significantly as far as quality and reliability go.
MB was reliable in comparison to the playing field in the 80's. They have great driving dynamics and safety.
Lexus is the new gold standard in reliability. It's driving experience is different than MB. It is softer and if I were on a track or making quick turns going for speed, I would prefer to be in an MB or a BMW. But in choosing my LS430 over the S430, which my heart preferred, I couldn't ignore the defects in 2 separate road tests on 2 different cars (a steering wheel that would not tilt due to a blown fuse, and a window that would not open)
The American consumer is just too savvy to continue to buy status alone and I hope that MB improves the quality because it is a great company with a great heritage. They need to remember that in the long run luxury and status will only remain if it is backed up by quality. After all, the higher quality was the catalyst for their growth and the beginning of the status symbol status for MB in America.
fine vehicles and so does Lexus. the only problem i have is that the Lexus "brand" is built on the re badging of Toyota products. i think most posters on this forum would have a big problem if Mercedes Benz sold re badged Chrysler products. this is a big sticking point with me because in my eyes i see a massive difference between MB and Lexus.
a couple of weeks ago i was lurking on Edmund's and i came across this thread. after reading all of the German bashing....MB in particular i couldn't resist jumping in. i hope that the past 30 pages has made more posters aware of what the differences are between Lexus and the German brands. also the importance of MB in the market place...historically and presently.
like i said in my earlier posts...i also own two GMC's...so status is not what drives me when i purchase an automobile.
"Rebadging" may mean less status that building from scratch, but the car itself is no less worthy as a car, and an enthusiast should like it no less.
BTW I actually don't count myself as a true enthusiast.
when MB designed and tested the S class
they didn't design it around the normal
crash testing parameters. when i saw
these photos i was convinced without a
doubt that the S quite possibly the safest
automobile on the road.
this is only my
opinion but i believe that many
of the automakers today design their automobiles
to test well in the test crash that are
currently being used. they design to the
parameters not beyond them. to go beyond those
parameters is what separates automotive
companies.
the person i contacted on the photos emailed me
and said he doesn't have them anymore. maybe
someone else will come up with them. sorry.
The truth is Lexus has replaced MB as the gold standard in build quality and reliability and it just can't be handled or accepted by many people who love the MB name. So they grope and find ridiculous things to bank on. That is the story of the last 250 posts.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/26/business/worldbusiness/26bmw.ht- ml
Last line of paragraph 3 should interest merc1.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/26/business/worldbusiness/26factor- y.html
Maybe someone is getting to Bangle but personally I still think the 3-series has a bad look in its new form. Just not as bad as the 5 or 7. But like the others IMO it's great looking on the front end and then loses it fron the rear seat back.
Let's face it. Toyota put one over on us and it worked.
Link 1
Link 2
(The NY Times website does require free registration to view their site.)
I'm told the link issue will be fixed within a couple of weeks ...
Of course it is. Why do you think they created the separate Lexus badge to begin with. And in spite of the inherent merits of high-end Toyotas, high-end buyers want status to go along with it. Camp Lexus is like the second-born child who wants to prove he's just as good as big brother Mercedes. They know that Lexus has something going, but o-o-o-h they want that recognition. Most of them say they could care less, and indeed this may be the case for some, but I think I have a good idea of who's who around here among the usual suspects ;-) Not that it matters, I just find it to be funny.
Status is no different from money. Many of us know that worshipping the golden calf is not the noblest of endeavors, hence the proclamations "I don't care about status," but deep down inside some do it regardless, and reveal themselves without even realizing it.
"Let's face it. Toyota put one over on us and it worked."
Well, I wouldn't go that far. Going into a Toyota service department is no different from Ford service. In addition to the luxury accoutrements, Lexus service seems to be in class of its own.
" the German lovers base best car emphasis on performance dynamics even though it can't be used 99% of the time. I've been saying that for years. "
Ljflx this is where you really identify your priorities and at the same time vilify those of the German-car buyer. I've been saying the following for years also. The benefits of ANY higher-performance car are 100% available even to super-cautious old ladies who drive well-within the speed limits. A performance car is a safer, more secure car, whether one chooses to exploit the car at its limits or not. My wife knows nothing about cars or performance. However she knows what she simply feels. I submit that there are many German-car buyers who are EXACTLY like my wife. Your 99%-of-the-time thing is simply a convenient rationale for those who neither desire or appreciate the qualities of cars like BMWs. The Lexus buyer is a Lexus buyer. The BMW buyer is a BMW buyer. Never the twain shall meet. And then there is Oac ;-) Personally, I think the BMW buyer is a breed unto itself, especially the 7-series buyer. It's incredible what the latter have had to put up with.
I had a 330i which I loved and was very dependable. My needs changed (a much longer commute) and I decided I wanted a luxury car. That's when I went on the LS, Audi 8, BMW 745 and MB S class odessy. Finally went with the LS430 for what I think is better quality at a lower price. I respect each car for what they bring to the table, sport, luxo, technical goodies etc. But in the end for 60K plus you better get quality and reliability along with the attributes you loved in the car. I would have gone with the S Class if I thought only a few minor issues would come up. But the thought of major repeating problems at that price were enough to turn me away. I don't need every car company to be equal to Lexus in reliability but they should be close at those prices.
"i think most posters on this forum would have a big problem if Mercedes Benz sold re badged Chrysler products. this is a big sticking point with me because in my eyes i see a massive difference between MB and Lexus"
Have you been to Europe ever ? Have you seen the kadzillion stripped-down MBs that litter the Taxi ranks on the streets and airports of Europe ? These cars are as spartan as a Kia ! Vinyly seats, no A/C, no sun/moonroof, steel rim wheels with covers, etc.... have ridden in many many MBs in Europe on business trips, so I know what I am talking about.... These cars are what adds a lot of units sold to MBs worldwide sales. Only here in the US and parts of Asia does MB categorically positions itself as a pure luxury brand.
I'd like to see you in one of these stripped MBs before you start castigating Lexus as re-badged Toyotas. Besides, how can MB be a pure lux brand when it sells the A-class, Smart, and that God-awful G-class ???
Finally, do you recall MBs of the 70's and 80's ? Tell me what luxury features you can point to ? They were not the nicest looking cars on the road. Their claims to fame were their rock-solid build, quality of engineering, safety, and the three-pointed star. Now, the most striking thing about MBs is their exterior styling.... That does not make a luxury car, imo.
"The Lexus buyer is a Lexus buyer. The BMW buyer is a BMW buyer. Never the twain shall meet. And then there is Oac ;-)"
You humor me, my dear Designman. And I thank you for this....
and syswei is right on as well- Denali- why does it matter what the badge says- isn't it what's underneath that counts? Would the LS be an inferior car if it were called a Toyota? Would your A8 be a lesser car if it were a VW? Still great cars with or without the badge-
Anyway, that's a good point about badging. And the A8 is rebadged into a VW, the Phaeton (which doesn't make sense to me). That doesn't make it a worse car at all. Lexus has the LX470 (and soon a JX470 based off of the Sequoia) that is based off of the old Land Cruiser. But it's been changed enough in the smaller dynamics to be a Lexus. And the Maybachs are just rebadged S-Classes stretched, but does that make them bad? bad point, chris. Bad point. Anyway, that's the way GMC works (as far as I can see) From what I've driven of GMC, they seem a lot like Chevys.
OK I'm out
Chris
For me personally, Lexus lacks MB's prestige, but Lexus has "enough" prestige. And I don't think I would buy a R or next-generation G at least in their first year of production, because to me reliability needs to be proven for MB, and this outweighs MB's incremental prestige.
As I said in my last post, I don't count myself as a true enthusiast. And I still don't see why a true enthusiast should care about the badge.
> performance dynamics even though it can't be
> used 99% of the time ..
I'd change that to say "performance car lovers", and it happens to be that a large portion of the luxury car market is performance and "sports" oriented (though I've never understood the latter acronym, it's not like anyone gets any fitter driving a "sports sedan" than a Taurus). The car market *is* irrational. It does appeal to emotion, no matter how much people try to rationalize it away.
The motorcycle market is a nice case study in the irrationality of motor vehicle. Not even the best riders in the world can exploit a 100HP+ sports motorcycle capabilities to the fullest on the road and expect to live. However, the average weekend rider likes to project the image that *he* can. And would never want to admit he can't (and shouldn't if he wants to live) and buy a more rational package based on that fact. Ergo, sharper and sharper packages with 140HP+ and ridiculously radical seating positions dominate the market. And if, like me, you go buy a BMW, which is an utterly satisfying and capable motorcycle (not even remotely a performance leader, though), the other riders just *know* you're boring and slow. No matter if you just trounced them coming up the canyon road when a couple of turns came up...
Same with cars. For some reason people want to project the image they exploit all those horses of the traffic light, and that they know to exploit the limits of the car's cornering capabilities...
Don't get me wrong - I do like some tautness in cars, since excessive roll angles and boat like floating over any ondulation of the surface is a bit too much. But there aren't many cars like that driving around these days. Responsiveness is good. Cart-like connection to every road imperfection is not, though. Engine responsiveness is good, and some decent power needs to be present for that. But bizarre power engineering that needs tobe contunuously reeled in by dynamic aids to protect the integrity of the mechanicals as well as the rider's is a bizarre trend... but the odd thing is, many buyers are intensely irrational and go for it.
I do think Lexus is a balanced, conservative approach to building luxury cars. Load them to the gills, don't go overboard with power or sporty dynamics. Which incidentally used to initially be the Mercedes differentiator against BMW when they first crossed swords, long before Lexus entered the scene. So one could argue that Lexus out-Benzed Mercedes in their traditional approach, emphasizing balance and an overall softer approach combined with a "built to last" label. It's interesting how the new Mercedes has increasingly lost itself in exhuberance, trying to crank out new models as it feels it loses a grip on their traditional bread and butter market segments. I am mesmerized they don't have a "back to basics" initiative going. That they have this paranoid tendency to emphasize tradition and heritage in their advertising while all the while they try their hardest to be a radically different, far more exhuberant and irrational company than they were in those times...
I like quite a few cars in the Mercedes line-up a lot, especially the CL to me has always been among the classiest grand tourers around, and I love GTs. The CLK convertible has a lot of appeal. But I would not buy ther cars these days, I may however consider leasing them. With Lexus, while the design doesn't blow me away, the balance and vault-like solidness of the package impresses, and that is a car I would buy cash. BMW? They've lost their way design wise, their shapes don't do it at all for me, with an odd mix of overly angular and aggressively dynamic and then droopy, sagging shapes thrown in. I also have to admit I like Audis a lot, but than new grille doesn't do it with me. Audi and chrome - who would have thought. Jaguar also has taken a wrong design turn, with all their cars now having become charicatures of traditional British car design, as opposed to pioneering new ground. Remember the XKE. Try something new, but they may have ridden themselves too far into the geriatric choice. One of my favorite brands 10 years ago winds up being the one I'd be least ikely to buy again... strange.
> emphasize reliability, tranquility and comfort
> rather than styles, performance and handling ..
The odd thing is that that was exactly the Mercedes sedan philosophy... until BMW started swaying too many yuppie buyers away from them with sportier dynamics. As BMW rose and rose, Mercedes got lured into increasingly going for the same value proposition. At some point in time, they had abandoned their traditional value proposition so much that there was a market void. Whether it was genius to identify the need and fill it, or whether that was the only philosophy that would have worked for Lexus anyhow and thus they just met a receptive market one will never know. But to me there is little doubt that Lexus did benefit from Mercedes having been lured away from their traditional approach by the more dynamic, flashier BMW challenge.
> .. CLS is the most beautiful sedan ..
They won't sell you one if you call it a sedan in the Merc dealership. They call them "coupes". :-)
vehicles and creating a new brand. it seems to me that when anyone speaks of Lexus automobiles and the brand Lexus they mention the LS430. well guys the LS is a very nice car....but one car does not make a luxury brand. most Lexus automobiles sold in the US are re badged Toyotas. maybe they should be called Lexota's? how's that for "castigating"?
so stripped down E classes are used as taxi cabs. that is nothing new. please explain to me
how this diminishes MB's luxury brand appeal?
as for the A class and smart. what really is the point? why not mention S65, Maybach? for our purposes in this discussion it is what's in the middle that seems to matter most.
you know guys i cross shopped the LS430. so it's not like i hate Lexus! i just find it completely unbelievable that anyone could think
Lexus to be a more substantial and luxury automobile brand than Mercedes Benz.
how this diminishes MB's luxury brand appeal? "
How does the LS430 being a Celsior diminish the LS430's luxury appeal?? AT least the LS430 or Celsior both come decked out with Leather, alloy wheels, power seats, etc.
Your slip is showing. I think many of us buy cars not brand. The latter is what Syswei's whole status issue is about. I find the LS430 a better luxurious car than the S500. The branding is irrelevant to me and on a scale of 1-100, they are both very close to the 100 benchmark. so how can you go wrong if luxury is your choice in either car. So you buy what you think suits you better and/or you have more confidence in. It's really that simple. If pure value was the cause I would never have wasted my time looking into the s-class.
By the way - you are the one who loves the sales count exclusion. Do the taxi cabs count as lux car sales in your view?
Then why, oh why is MB doing so poorly profit-wise? Maybe because it's costs are about equal to it's prestige?
This is "Social Security System Is a Disaster" class math.
"Like No Other", which really means not only can we not build two alike, we don't really know what all is wrong with the one you bought. Sort of like the British cars of the 1970's.
The hype about MB reminds me of tuning into one of those 'infomercials' on Channel 362 and a guy in a white apron is lobbing rib roasts at a coffin sized cooker while the paid audience claps and rants "Set it and forget it".
Fortunately for the stove buyers, their electronics work.
as for the E class taxi cabs....good for MB.
the more MB's on the road the better for MB.
what's the issue? not gussied up enough for
you guys? so all we need now is leather to be a luxury car!!! i guess this means my pickup has
just stepped up the ladder a couple of notches!!well i would be surprised if every
Celsior is optioned with leather in Japan.
A little annecdote that perhaps speaks to the snob appeal that the MB dealers try to cultivate: locally at least the salespeople refer to the E wagon as "The Station"...I guess not so subtly trying to remind people that if you can afford to drive an E wagon then you've really "arrived at your station in life".
Reminds me of the late 80s when Apple management (in the days of John Scully) would keep refering to Macs as "Macintosh" but never ever using the word "the" in front of Macintosh. Kind of like how people refer to God, never using "the". It was as though they hoped that using the English language in that way would improve people's perceptions of the Mac. That's what you get from a marketing-driven CEO...Scully's background was Pepsi...marketing sugar-water to people.
Scully would have done great with MB, sugar water is their forté.
I think my orginal answer was to the point
Celsior is actually a rebadged LS...Hmmmm
Denali- "so stripped down E classes are used as taxi cabs. that is nothing new. please explain to me
how this diminishes MB's luxury brand appeal? "
Maxhonda- How does the LS430 being a Celsior diminish the LS430's luxury appeal?? AT least the LS430 or Celsior both come decked out with Leather, alloy wheels, power seats, etc.
Denali never responds to these queries and can't really see through the smoke and mirrors that is marketing, "image", and prestige. You put down the LS as a rebadged Celsior, but shouldn't you say that a juiced-up american version of the E class isn't just a "rebadged" european taxicab? And if you say more taxicabs are good for MB, then how can you diminish the value of Lexus's best seller, the RX300/RX330? And you're the type of person who would be the first to criticize Lexus if they produced an inexpensive $20K car, and then praise MB for making the A class and Smart cars. Can you really not see the contradictions in your own arguments?
You still didn't answer my other question earlier- would your A8 be diminished somehow as a luxury sports sedan if it said VW on the hood instead of Audi? To me, there's not that much difference between Audi and Lexus. Their cars are generally based, in construction/engines/suspensions/etc, on VW's and Toyotas. The A8 deviates the most from this due to it's aluminum construction. But consider the electronics, transmission, suspension, engines, I believe it is still based in large part on the Phaeton. In any case, imho, aluminum or not, the A8 is still a beautiful, but heavy car with a brittle ride, mediocre steering, and questionable reliability, that costs about $15K more than the L430. I respect that you purchased the A8- it's a fine car- but don't start justifying it to yourself and everyone else by criticizing the LS430, because for every argument you make praising Audi and MB, there's several more that make Lexus look like a far more rational and intelligent, if not as emotional buy-
Well said, indeed !
Since we are talking of re-badged cars, the NA market C, E and S-class MBs are simply Euro Taxicabs decked out with nice amenities and then re-badged as luxury cars !!! Hehehehehehe....