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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Member Posts: 169
    have i ever called the LS430 a re badged Celsior? i don't recall but if i have i would like to see the number of the post because that would be inaccurate.

    it seems to me that the only way to praise the Lexus LS430 and the Lexus brand is to attack my own personal purchase. I've purchased German and Japanese vehicles and i can certainly see through the smoke and mirrors that is marketing. one thing that i have never been fooled by is the smoke and mirrors of Lexus. they have 4 and only 4 specific vehicles. how on this earth an automobile manufacturer could actually be compared to MB with such a minuscule car line is beyond me. Audi maybe...MB never.

    as for the E class taxi cabs....they are still E classes aren't they. they are a true E class. so what's the problem. they could be "decked out" if the buyer wanted them that way. keep in mind they are not re badged in any way. because they are being used as taxi cabs in some way diminishes them form being a true Mercedes Benz. i don't think so. talk about reverse snobbery and desperation! oh by the way are "European taxi cabs" a brand of automobile?

    the RX330 is a Toyota Highlander and vice versa. go across the street and save some money at the Toyota dealer....then you are a true "thinking man"? the breadth of the MB lineup whether it be the A class or the S class....guess what..they are still MB's....not re badged vehicles. if MB wanted to be like Lexus all they would have to do is re badge a Dodge Durango and they would have a larger suv in their lineup. well...MB doesn't do things that way. they have a brand new G class (designed from the ground up) that will be released this fall that will serve as their full sized suv. and you guessed it...it is a true MB...not re badged with a little wood here and there and the price jacked up. what is the Lexus full size suv?.....a Toyota Land Cruiser masquerading as an LX470.

    can you say with 100% certainty that the Celsior is usually equipped to the levels that the LS430 is in the US? from what i've picked up on other boards it is usually sold in a more spartan form.

    would the A8 i purchased be diminished as a luxury sports sedan if it had the VW logo?
    not in practical terms but in business terms..yes it would. all you have to do is look at the struggle that VW is having selling the Phaeton. the Phaeton is a beautiful automobile but is left hanging mainly because of brand perception. as Lexus was once considered an oddball but persiveered...VW will have to do the same.

    one difference in the Audi lineup of vehicles in comparison to VW is the use of high performance engines that
    are not available in every VW. the similarities
    of Phaeton and the A8 are the awd and the engine. after that they are completely different animals. Aluminum vs Steel. the Phaeton weighs about 1000lbs more. VW and Audi are similar in nature to Lexus and Toyota when it comes to sharing platforms. the main difference that i can see is that from Audi and VW to Lexus and Toyota is this.... the German brands reach much higher with their luxury flagship. one thing i received when i purchased my A8 was a truly unique vehicle. the only production sedan made completely of aluminum. might not mean anything to you but to me it makes the car special...unique.

    hey for 55k the LS 430 is a fine car that is limited in what it offers. at this point in time one fine automobile does not
    make a luxury brand...especially compared to MB. no comparison what so ever.
  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Member Posts: 169
    i buy cars not brand. i've owned BMW's, MB's, Acura's, and now an Audi. so much for brand loyalty huh? after 7 Toyota's i wonder why Lexus has yet to sell me a car?
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Denali:

    You are stretching and clawing at straws now. Seems you cannot see that a luxury brand seller of the *prestige* and status and cache (throw in as many adjectives as you'd like here) of MB has their goods being used as sherpas, diminishes the brand status. That's cool tho'....

    For me, Lexus is a brand I like. They make cars and trucks that fit my lifestyle, at this particular time of my life. Maybe when I turn 50 or something, I may change my lifestyle and go with a Bentley or a Kia.... Who knows ??? Enjoy your A8, it is a testament to your hardwork and success. The A8 is a very fine automobile with a task that may be slightly different from the LS. But both are extremely good and capable cars.
  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Member Posts: 169
    hi oac,

    thanks for the compliment.
    for all the pro MB stuff i've posted
    i should get a free trip to Germany!

    i still don't see how the use of MB's as
    taxi cabs lessens their brand. and do
    taxi cab drivers only use MB's? are E classes
    used as taxi cabs in Japan? if not what
    is used? on a side note last i checked MB was the worlds largest truck manufacturer. does this diminish their image as a luxury automaker?
  • iancariancar Member Posts: 31
    Mercedes trys to sell CLS as a coup and B and R as new "touring sport vehicle". Call me old if u want but a sedan with a sloping back is not a new idea. Good Oldsmobile had tried it in its Aurora a decade ago. Even Infiniti had its "four door coup" as J-series ten years ago. For me, R-class looks just like a good old minivan without a sliding door (which make it more inconvenience) and B-class looks just like a small European coup. Even worse, M-class' option third row seats r gone. Statistic showed almost all cossover with third row seats r blockbuster: XC90, MDX, and SRX. I just cant understand the wisdom behind all these decisions. What MB needs is not about new products, its about quality control and customer services.
  • xkssxkss Member Posts: 722
    because Toyotas don't excite me. The mid 90s Supra was awesome but they killed it.
  • xkssxkss Member Posts: 722
    The 2005 Chrysler 300C SRT-8 seems like a great car (it even has forged aluminum wheels which the new BMW M5 doesn't have...the 89-95 M5 had forged aluminum wheels) but Mercedes-Benz isn't going to rebadge it as one of their cars.

    The new Chrysler 300 uses new parts and parts from the previous Mercedes-Benz E class.
  • xkssxkss Member Posts: 722
    The Mercedes-Benz G class was made for military duty. It is an off-road beast and built like MBs used to be built.
  • xkssxkss Member Posts: 722
    just search google for pictures and information on the Toyota Celsior. It is exactly the same as early Lexus LS.
  • xkssxkss Member Posts: 722
    Because the LS430 lacks a sense of occasion. It isn't unique or special. It is a reliable luxo car to get from point A to point B.
  • footiefootie Member Posts: 636
    So in post 7587 Denalilama said:

    "the RX 300 was created....get this guys off of the Corolla platform!!!". In that same post you declare the " the LX 470, GX, RX....all re badged and underpowered Toyota's. they are in and of themselves not a bad vehicles....but is this a "Luxury Brand"....rebadged Toyota's????"

    In post 8056 (this reply) the RX is now the Highlander.

    Even more oddly, you said the new Audi A8 is made "completely of aluminum". What kind of hyperbole is that? It's got an all aluminum space frame - but does it have an all aluminum engine, gas tank, jack, headlight lenses, windows, seats, CD player?

    World class baloney and a trail of hyperbole.

    There's a big difference between luxury brands and luxury things. Luxury brands work as intended by the seller, while luxury goods work as intended by the customer.

    Remember, Rolex and Mercedes. One great jewelery and a so so watch. The other great jewelry and a so so car. Luxury brands, not luxury goods.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Lexus has a lot of problems according to you...

    It is too inexpensive (you would say cheap)

    it only really has 4 specific models,

    It is related to Celsor,

    it doesn't make stripped down Taxi's for volume,

    It doesn't have 4 Wheel Drive

    It is not made in Germany with all those fine engineers, Mechanical and Electrical....

    YET...IT OUTSELLS MERCEDES IN THE LARGEST LUXURY CAR MARKET IN THE WORLD...How can this be?
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Well mostly right:

    The Lexus LS does get you from A to B...Which compared to some of it's competition is a huge plus in itself...since that is it' primary purpose.

    It is Special in it's Smooth, Quiet ride, Ultra Luxury appointments, Trememdous sound system, comfort and Safety...All in a package that is well priced compared to it's competition and without question the most dependable Luxury machine on the road.

    I am sure you meant to say all of that to be totally accurate in your discription of Lexus Mr. xkss but just assumed we would all know the rest of the story.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Having owned BMW's since 1993, the reason for switching to the Lexus 430 in August is that I no longer have confidence in the former being able to get me from point A to point B.
  • hfanghfang Member Posts: 31
    U(denali) stopped making sense about 300 posts ago.

    1) This whole thing about the value of "rebadging" cars makes no sense at all. The reason that Lexus can take a Toyota, and turn it into a class leader in comfort, ride, and reliability is in part because Toyota makes a great car to begin with. Whether or not you think it's "cool" or "sporting" enough, is purely subjective, and not relevant here. MB can't take a chrysler and turn it into a MB because most chrysler's are crap. Once a pig, always a pig, so don't start talking about how MB doesn't "rebadge" cars. Would it make a difference if Toyota made the LS430 and didn't call it a lexus? Would it no longer be a great luxury vehicle? It would still kick the S430's butt in all the comparison tests whether it was called a Lexus or Toyota.

    2) Making 20 different cars (A, C, E, S, G, ML, CL, SL, SLK, Smart) doesn't make you the "best" luxury car maker. Nor does making the most expensive car in every segment either, which MB certainly does. Nor does taking a single platform/class and putting 10 different engines into it and marking up the price logarithmically. Jaguar has for years made beautiful and expensive vehicles, but I don't think they qualify as a "great" luxury car maker, and their cars aren't top-flight luxury vehicles- overpriced, unreliable, eccentric, cramped, etc. They get crushed in every comparison test published.

    3) If you really believe that if your A8 or S430 would somehow be an objectively inferior car if it was a VW or Chrysler then you have been completely blinded by the marketing gurus at Audi and MB. You'd be paying a premium for what? Badges? Tradition? A policy of non-rebadging? What?

    4) IMHO, the only reason that MB can still sell the S430 is precisely because of people like denaliimpa, who can't see a car for what it is beyond the badge on the hood. And there are plently of people like him, who would gladly pay an extra $15-20K for an, at best, competitive car compared to the LS430. It ain't faster, quieter, sportier, more luxurious, reliable, higher tech, etc than the LS430, but there are plenty of people who are more than happy to give their money away. Which is fine with me, but don't come back here and start telling intelligent people who can make objective decisions about how the S430 has more tradition and has thicker sheetmetal and that MB doesn't rebadge cars and therefore is a "better" luxury car maker and is superior to the LS430.

    To me, what defines a great luxury car maker? A manufacturer (regardless of country of origin, tradition, years in the business, etc) who can make a luxurious, attractive, spacious, safe, w/all the "bells and whistles" and supremely reliable vehicle for a competitive price. You want to spend $15-20K more for a similar car by another manufacturer- no problem- but just admit you spent it on prestige, looks, tradition. Not on a "better" vehicle made by a "better" manufacturer.
  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    Having crossed shopped both and driven both extensively before deciding on the LS, I believe I can give an objective opinion. I rated the drive dynamics of the S430 superior to the LS. This is backed by the consumers report review as well where they rated it the best riding car they ever tested. That's not to say that the LS pales in comparison because it does not. I just prefer the tighter handling, a bit more feedback and a bit more feeling from the steering. I think the LS steering is a bit over boosted. It also tends to lean more in hard cornering and I think it floats a bit more. I also liked the S Class looks a bit more.

    As for value and reliability, I think the Lexus wins hands down. If the MB was as reliable and priced similarly, I would have gone for it.
    The S430 was also missing some nice components that a car at that price should have: Xenon lights, wood steering wheel, blue tooth. I couldn't get over having a car at plus 70K that was a bit stripped down and I wasn't ready to jump to the S500 for the proper bells and whistles. But in the end I went for the LS based on quality and value and the ride is excellent.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Topspin:

    Did you have a chance to test the LS ultra..with the settings of sport handling and power...

    A little stiffer steering, less lean, Quicker out of the blocks...

    If you didn't and you get a chance to give it a try I would love to hear your comments.
  • topspin628topspin628 Member Posts: 373
    No Ultras were available to test when I made my purchase. The dealer told me that they were very rare here in the NE so I just pulled the trigger on the Modern Lux. I didn't want to pay for all the rear seat toys either. But I'm surprised to hear that the steering would offer more feel.
  • hfanghfang Member Posts: 31
    Things like steering feel, ride quality, looks- are pretty subjective. There are many who would say that the 745Li rides better than the MB, Lexus, Audi, etc- but then again, Car and Driver said that "the Lexus ride is unmatched in this group" when compared to the BMW, MB, Jag, Audi, etc. These subjective qualities do not make one manufacturer better than another. But quality, reliability, safety, technology, fuel efficiency, and value do contribute to how good one manufacturer is vs another. And in these areas, Lexus matches or surpasses all of it's competitors. You cannot compare a S500 to the LS430- it's $20-25K more; nor can you compare the SL500 to the SC430- it's also $25K more. The fact that the Lexus can even be compared to another vehicle that costs 30-40% more is a testament to it's greatness.

    I'm not a german auto basher, or lexus aficionado. But my wife and I have owned several of these vehicles- '95 LS400, '97 M3, '00 CLK430, '01 CLK55, '01 M5, '01 A8L and now a GS400/RX330/Boxster S- and while I enjoyed the driving characteristics of the M's and Boxster, I'd be a moron to say that BMW and MB is somehow "superior" to Lexus. Each does things a bit differently and focuses on different buyers, and each does a fine job in their own way. But in terms of a pure "luxury" vehicle, I still think the LS430 is unmatched at it's real-world price.
  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Member Posts: 169
    that's easy michael....price.
    55k compared to 70k
    means a lower car payment.
  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Member Posts: 169
    what's your point?
  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Member Posts: 169
    hey genius....read my post.
    no matter how well a car is
    manufactured the label that is
    placed on the hood of that car
    will in most cases dictate how
    well the car sells in the short
    term at the very least.

    if i can't see beyond the badge
    on the hood why am i driving an
    Audi instead of an MB? i buy cars
    that i like. i don't live in a jdpowers
    manufactured fear when it comes to
    purchasing my vehicles.

    and if you think for a second that
    re badging vehicles doesn't limit and
    diminish the Lexus brand then you are
    only fooling yourself and being a
    Lexus fanboy.
  • hfanghfang Member Posts: 31
    Yes it only diminishes the Lexus brand in the eyes of people such as yourself. You haven't addressed any of my points in my previous posts either. Lastly, JD powers has nothing to do with it. Do you think all the people out there who bought the LS430, RX330, ES330, (way more owners overall than Audi, and more than MB as well) think that their cars are somehow diminished because their vehicles are heavily upgraded versions of Toyotas? They're happy to get highly rated, high quality, ,safe, luxurious, tech-advanced vehicles at a good value. I think most of us think- damn, how does Lexus do it? Now that's the mark of a good luxury vehicle manufacturer!
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Mine cost almost 70k..It is the ultra...So lets compare mine to the 70K whatever that you are talking about...

    I will come out on top...Mine will be faster ...more reliable...and have more luxury features.
  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Member Posts: 169
    not once have i posted that any of the automobiles that Lexus or Toyota sells are
    not good vehicles.

    how does Lexus do it...i think i pointed
    that out in several posts.
  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Member Posts: 169
    are you sure you didn't overpay?
    aren't most LS430's being discounted
    about 7-8k now?
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    My Stars and Garters...Lexus is deminished by what you call rebadging...BUT>>>BUT how can that be the Lexus sells more cars then any other Luxury brand in the biggest market in the world....Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

    This kind of logic Just makes a guys head spin.

    As far as your Audi is concerned...LS is faster the your A-8...and it costs less and it has as many or more luxury features. Ahhhhhhh..Maybe that is why it sells more Luxury cars in the US then Audi...My Head Has Stopped Spinning.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Mine is an 01 The Ultra was really rare then...and maybe I did over pay...Unless I conceder what a similar car equally appointed would have cost me from Mercedes.
  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Member Posts: 169
    michael,

    do you really feel that your rwd LS
    is the equivalent of an awd car?
    and...you feel that your Lexus
    is better equipped? really?

    so the US market is all that matters?
    isn't that a little
    egocentric and self serving.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    We need to back off of the personal comments here ... I'm sure we can keep this conversation focused on the vehicles and stop with the sarcasm about each other, can't we?
  • hfanghfang Member Posts: 31
    Ah, I see that when you have no more bullets in your gun, the name calling starts. I've never called you anything derogatory- just for you to address my points in a logical and systematic way. And now I'm a lexus fanboy? Egads...
  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Member Posts: 169
    i don't have a MB sedan...i drive an
    Audi sedan. my argument and opinions
    when discussing whether Lexus is the
    equal of Mercedes Benz in not biased.
    in my opinion yours is. still...
    i apologize for using the words fanboy.
    it was inappropriate and unnecessary.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    That's enough - keep your comments confined to the cars. Thank you.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Were I live it is better I don't need awd...What do you want to put up for $70,000 and what comes with it....
  • denaliinpadenaliinpa Member Posts: 169
    awd isn't a necessity but it does
    have some advantages. in the
    northeast it enables you use your
    sedan all year round without
    having to worry about weather.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "If quality is lacking then problems can occure anywhere..ABS, ESP, Brake Assist or anywhere else."

    Yet since these items have been on cars from MB and every other brand sold in the U.S. there has been no such reports of anyone ABS, ESP or Brake Assist or anything like these items not working as they should. ABS has been on every car under the sun for at least 10 years or more, yet nothing has ever been shown it failing.

    Again, if you have proof of such a failure, I'd like to read about it, otherwise you're just speculating endlessly about much of nothing, its called hype.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "The poster before attempts to malign the Lexus name without any proof. The only thing those links indicated was that the Lexus performs MARGINALLY worse in rear end crashes, which the tester admits usually aren't serious.

    The "problem" is that he gave the proof and as usual when it doesn't show Lexus in a good light it is glossed over and isn't important.

    "None of you acknowledge that being first in innovation isn't enough to generate profits. Prestige does not equal profits as clearly shown in the MB case. You fail to see the point that no one cares WHO built the thing first.. This is the point you all miss repeatedly.

    Very important word missing here, "you". More correctly you don't care about these things yet MB owners right here on these very boards like the fact that Mercedes was first with a lot of things, along with Volvo and other European cars that pioneered safety in modern cars. These things are part of their lure, like CR and JDP reports are a part of Lexus' twist. Its understandable that you won't care about the safety or prestige viewpoints because they don't apply to Lexus.

    What you miss that nobody here or anyone else walks into a showroom caring what Toyota's profits are. That is absurd to even suggest that. Who cares what a companies profits are as long as they aren't in danger of leaving the market and the buyer with an unservicable car, a postion MB isn't even close to being in.

    Don't no buyers care about profits of the car company they're buying from. They do care about reliability and reputation of a brand, especially a luxury brand. No you can debate which is more important to whom all day long, but people don't care squat about no profits.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "Aha... I couldn't have said it any better than you just did. If the SL is a much better car than the SC, does the higher price of the SL deter its sales ? Nope. See, we do agree...."

    Well we don't really "agree" on anything except the SL being a better car. The SL is a lot newer than the SC430 also.

    "So let us extrapolate. If the S430/500 are better cars than the LS430, regardless of their higher prices, would they not sell better COMBINED than a single engined Lexus LS430 ? But we all know the reverse is the case, right ? So, it must tell you something about the incredible car the LS430 is. That it can single-handedly BEAT all S-class cars COMBINED in units sold. The LS, whether you'd like to admit it or not, is the most popular, most DESIRED mainstream full-size luxury car money can buy. Its higher sales bears this point out. If the MBs were $20K, $30K better (as currently priced), they should clobber the LS in sales."

    I'm sorry but this is bass-ackwards. It completely the 56K sticker of the LS and the 70K+ sticker of the cheapest S-Class. You have no idea what the most "desired" car in the class is, all you know is the best selling one. If price were equal, at least one Lexus fan I've seen would have bought the S, not the LS. You're ignoring price having an effect on sales like all the others here. You're trying to tie that in with whether or not the S-Class is worth the premium, which wasn't my argument.

    BTW, I don't think the S-Class is 20-30K better than the LS430, not at all. Never stated that, someone else may have, but not me.

    I have yet to understand what in the world does profit statements and other corporate matters that are matterless to a buyer factor into this. You mean to tell me that a LS is such a boring, insipid car to the point where you have to bring up profits about a car company to make a case for it? That really gets me excited, thinking about Toyotas profits, if I happen to like their new IS250350 model.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "My point here is that hybrid tech trumps anything else MB has innovated in the last 15 years. Why? Because it is probably the only new technology to come along in the last 15 years (probably longer) that SIGNIFICANTLY IMPROVES BOTH FUEL ECONOMY AND SHEER PERFORMANCE. The fuel savings are a societal and environmental good.

    Who declared this to be fact or even true? The saving lives part is so far fetched and so far into the future to the point that it shouldn't even be argued here, yet. This is all guesswork. There should have been a big IMO at the end of this. Lexus has yet to even sell a single hyrbid vehicle and the Prius hasn't sold in enough numbers yet even make the smallest most minute difference any air quality anywhere at anytime. I'm surprised by all the guesswork here that you're trying to pass off as facts. Most unusual. The part you really don't want to acknowledge is that all the safety work done by MB, Volvo and others have saved lives now for over 30 years in some cases and most of this has been documented, unlike your hybrid theory.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    " dunno what other people think, but if Mercedes can even make their radio or head lamp work perfectly and dependable, how can i trust it can save my life with its airbags and all other advance technologies.

    You seem to be under the assumption that Mercedes is just can't do anything right and on this board, reading these posts its understandable. My first response to this would be that Mercedes pioneered these things during another era when even the JDP and CR survey/chart chasers would have been pleased with Mercedes' performance. My second response would be that these very technologies are not Mercedes' exclusives and haven't been since after the first year they were introduced. In other words they are proven technologies and to imply that such things like airbags and ABS won't because they're on a Mercedes is pure hype and not based on anything in reality. If you have proof of anything like that happening I'd like to read about it.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    "Sometimes in the heat of discussion, we lose sight of the obvious. But note that it is rare to see someone argue here that the LS is safer than the S, or has better driving dynamics, or has more prestige. Nor do you see many people saying the S is really more reliable than the LS, or that its electronics are better, or that you get more bang for your buck in the S. That disagreement may be true in comparing the traits of other cars, but not these two. We just disagree about how to weigh the importance of the different factors, not which car possesses which dominant trait.

    That's why this battle can never be won, nor can anyone be swayed to one side or the other. We in fact probably all agree on the objective factors, we just disagree on their relative importance."


    Exactly! This is what what I was trying to say at the outset of this latest melee which has gone on for about 3 weeks now, much longer than any fallout from anything I've ever stated.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Over the last 98(!) posts I've seen a lot of debate about badging.

    I for one hate rebadging of cars, but in Lexus' defense the LS430 or whatever it is called in Japan is a luxury car by "specification" no matter which baged it is sold under.

    If the badge determined the stauts then the VW Phaeton wouldn't be a luxury car either, and we all know it is. Pure luxury car, period.

    Rebadging to me is what GM is forcing upon Saab with the 9-7x and 9-2x models, see other forums for specifics. Rebadging whether Lexus fans like it or not is the Toyota Land Cruiser and Lexus LX470, other than a few equipment changes they are the same truck. Lexus does at the very least attempt to seperate the GX and ES from their 4Runner and Camry bases. To buy a LX470 is pure badge stuff at work, just as bad any anyone buying a Mercedes because of its badge.

    Saying a A8 is a rebadge Phaeton shows who reads the specs and who doesn't. They don't even share same construction techniques or frame, hardly a "rebadge".

    M
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Regardless of whether issues are speculation or fact, there is an extremely high awareness of safety. Case in point, I know of people who cut down trees because they are afraid of their kids getting concussions from falling nuts. Imagine the dangers of being a Boy/Girl Scout.

    Thus, if a car gets a ton of black dots the seed is planted in the mind—maybe the car's safety features—the airbags—will fail. Dum, da dum dum. It may have little to do with reality but it is probably in the mind of many buyers and I am sure it is what people around here are alluding to.

    Risk management is a big part of today's mentality and black dots are synonymous with risk.
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Merc,
    My point about safety on the LS is that the tests show it to be marginally worse in rear end crashes. It hardly qualifies the LS as an unsafe or shoddily built car as some have said here. The testers admit these rear end impacts rarely result in serious injury. Basically for the typical crash (front, side) the LS performs as well as everyone else.

    You are correct to say Lexus owners value JDP, CR more than prestige. I don't think it's fair to say we don't value safety. The LS performance is comparable, but not superior. My favorite Jaguar (The XJ8) doesn't have many of the features that MB does, but I wouldn't hesitate to buy one.

    I agree with you on the profit part. What I meant to say the strength of Lexus is shown in the profit side of things. You can't argue with success. I wasn't trying to argue that the majority of buyers look up balance sheets. My point was that buyers also don't care who is first to market with various safety measures. I don't even know who invented ABS (MB?) nor do I care. Who was first to market isn't going to influence my decision.

    The reason I almost got the S430 was the sleek profile of the car. Also, after driving a LS for 13 years, I thought it might be worth the change. Like many though, I didn't think the 13K premium was justified. Had it been 2-4K then I would have done it. The clincher was the current quality issues. Once they've cleared that up, I probably will get one, should Lexus continue with these insipid designs. Lexus had it right with the original LS and SC...Why did they change it?!

    I remember in the late eighties, MB used to dominate the JDP surveys. To fall to 31 is quite shocking for a celebrated brand like Mercedes. Was it cost cutting that led to this?

    Sitting in all of these cars (LS, S Class, 7 Series) I feel that they aren't designed to the same specs that their predecessors were. I still see shining examples of original LS400's, 80's S Classes and BMW's all over the place. Somehow with all these electronic gimmicks I don't think these cars will fare as well. Normally I don't trade my cars frequently, but I feel really uneasy about owning a car outside the warranty perioid with such gadgetry. I think the marques are focusing too much on the electronics end at the cost of long term reliability.

    SV
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well of course I didn't say the LS430 was an unsafe car. Truthfully I think the whole thing started when someone else tried to imply the same thing about the A8 and then new MB fans came on board saying that about the LS compared to a Benz.

    My point about things like ABS is that a lot (not all or majority) fans of the Benz marque know these things about their innovations because it is part of MB's heritage. This is part of their lure, just as Lexus will do the same in the history books if and when this hybrid things takes off and they're leading the way. See? The thing I disagreed with you on was "who cares" attitude about such things as who invented/pioneered what, yet German car fans are supposed to care about Toyotas profits and JDP and CR reports instead or the fact that they came up with hybrid tech first.

    The two views don't mix. Never have, never will.

    M
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I agree with you that most people don't car about the car manufacturer's profits (unless the company is seen as possibly going under).

    But on safety I think most people really don't care, when they are shopping for a car, who was FIRST with a particular safety feature. They do and should care about WHAT CAR IS THE SAFEST NOW.

    If a buyer really cares about safety foremost and is trying to decide between an S and an LS, the objective data available are:

    1. IIHS insurance injury loss rankings look better for the LS
    2. IIHS has not crash tested the S, but in comparing the E and GS, the E does better on rear impacts
    3. The LS has rear side curtain airbags but lack rear side door-mounted airbags
    4. CR shows S-class brakes to be less reliable than LS brakes (the S looks average, the LS looks very good/excellent in brake reliability)

    The final point is where reliability may indeed impact safety. Does the buyer want the extra rear airbags, or does he want brakes that are more reliable?

    IMHO looking at all the available objective data, one can't say that the S is safer than the LS. It looks about the same.

    Again I don't see why it should matter to the buyer that MB invented ABS or whatever, as long as the LS has it too.

    Do you still use Visicalc because it was the first spreadsheet? Or do you instead use the best spreadsheet for the purpose?

    Do you pick a brand of cellphone based on who was FIRST with various innovations? Or do you pick based on who offers the best cellphone NOW, based on whatever criteria are important to you?

    Five years from now, if I'm in the market for my second hybrid vehicle and MB makes what in my view is the best for my needs, I'll buy it. I won't care that they weren't first with the innovation.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Silly because two people who pass up MB ownership chances are arguing with a bunch of Lexus folk who buy, have bought and will be repeat buyers in future. Then we have some historic German buyers who have bought Lexus and see/experience what the rest of us always talk about. On the other hand Merc can afford the C-class but says he'll pass on it if buying anew (in the past) so for all his vaunted claims finds other cars better suited in his price range. Meanwhile [denaliinpa] can't handle Lexus success and just flamethrows. At the same time the Lex crowd can't wait to see the next LS and the cars in their group because of the phenomenal ownership experience. Most of us wouldn't even think of switching when we are buying anew. Lawyers would have a field day with this one if it was a court case.
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    So far from what I read: MB used to build the best cars, now it is being surpassed by new comers like Lexus. But MB still can regain its throne by concentrating again on quality, it's that simple.
    Can we talk about something else?
  • vchengvcheng Member Posts: 1,284
    I have had two LS430 cars. My brother has a Mercedes S500, while I now have a VW Phaeton. Who knows what's next? They are all great with different strengths and no real weaknesses. Variety is the spice of life.
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    After owning VW, would you buy Phaeton over LS430 again? I used to own MB, but now Lexus, I won't go back to MB unless their quality improves.
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