High End Luxury Cars

michael_mattox · March 2005

Stroudman:

I thing the GS is a Beautiful Car...but Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...Sales will determine if the public like it or not.

ljflx · March 2005

Weren't you shopping for a car? Did you ever buy?

blckislandguy · March 2005

Stroudman, your concise bullets were a nice change from the multiparagraph, dense tomes that preceded you. I truly don't have a clear idea where they stand on the points they raised. Maybe not so incidentally, I agree with all of your points and liked the sociology. I wouldn't want to have a customer base composed of Tri Delts and mid-20's people working in financial services. They will turn on a dime to the Next Coolest Thing.

stroudman · March 2005

Just wanted to stir things a little-

-these are just my opinions on the topic, so of course they're subjective.

- insofar as showing off wealth is concerned, I actually think the majority of guys whose goal is using a car to those ends will purchase an exotic, such as a ford GT, lambo, etc, and have it dripping with bling. Most of the people I sell an S-class to are simply looking for the largest, smoothest riding vehicle their budget will allow.

-whether the GS sells well or not, it's design signatures, IMHO, are right off the current maxima.

-I think hybrids that breach the 100k dollar range will likely only offer a unique drivetrain, at the cost of overall driveability, but we'll see...

-Those gen-Y kids are a pretty fickle crowd. The sad thing is they're driving around in cars it should take years of hard work and good descision making to earn, when most of them haven't worked a day in their young lives.

-the es330 is a better equipped and more refined car than the C? The last I saw of it, it was a camry with a brace connecting the front strut towers, and has others (mostly mercedes-benz) to thank for every feature it offers. But I agree there are other boards for the lesser cars.

ljflx · March 2005

Have you seen the GS in person? I don't see the Maxima in that car at all.

stroudman · March 2005

Nope, just on the TV, so I might be way off. But I believe, with exception of the 2nd gen SC430, there is not a lexus design that isn't significantly derivative of some other's design.

ljflx · March 2005

Disagree completely.

michael_mattox · March 2005

Stroudman:

Just curious, as good a salesman as you seem to be ...Are you still able to sell as many S class Mercedes as you say 5 years ago...Our has all the mechanical and electrical problems caught up with you guys.

princeabubu · March 2005

You must have me confused with someone else. I'm the tender young age of 18. The only thing I've been shopping for as of late is accesories for my iPod.

stroudman · March 2005

As far as how good a salesman I am, I'll leave that to my clients to defend.

I think the S-class sells as well as it always has, overall, but I work out of a small market that's fairly conservative. The irony of the whole quality/reliability issue is that the word has traveled slowly. Nowadays, the cars are as reliable as they've been in the 5 years I've sold them, but the "conventional wisdom" says my product is bad now. Mercedes still has a way to go towards getting their act back together, and I think they've made some poor decisions, but I have much more faith in the product than I did two years ago. My biggest worry right now personally is that some of my best techs, whom I rely on heavily, are going to leave because they're not busy enough. and no, I'm not just saying that.

-ljflx - That's fine...

michael_mattox · March 2005

Stroudman:

That is great...It is always a good thing for the customers when the mechanics don't have enough work.

Who are the guys going to...When the best one's leave they always have jobs lined up?

dwongswong · March 2005

I'm looking for a good used car, which I will purchase between June and December. I'm looking at these three: 2004 Audi A8L, 2004 Lexus LS430, and 2005 Acura RL (all will most likely be certified). I love the A8L but worry about the quality. The LS430 is nice but kind of bland looking. The RL looks a little bit nicer than the LS430 and has AWD, which I like. Which will be the best for my money, since I plan to keep it for 5-6 years?

paldi · March 2005

Phaeton.

michael_mattox · March 2005

If You like AWD and the looks of the RL...You have answered your own question...The RL is a quality Machine...Very Reliable (Like the LS) it is just not quite as UP SCALE. but it costs less.

carnaught · March 2005

All of your choices are good. The RL is a very nice automobile but realize it has a small interior. Based on the three Acuras I bought new, it will be reliable but will be prone to interior rattles and buzzes. That personally drives me crazy. Due to depreciation issues, I'd consider leasing the Audi.

blckislandguy · March 2005

Stroudman, what is the best year in terms of reliabilty vs. price to buy a used S Class? The majority of new E Class cars in New England are now AWD. Is the S Class buyer going for AWD in the same percentage (or do they all go to FL)?

dwongswong · March 2005

I originally ruled out the Phaeton because of the black plastic lower body panel. The picture you posted has a monochromatic look. I like it but not sure what year that is? If that is a 2005 W12, it may be out of my price range.

paldi · March 2005

That is a 2004 V8 with the black lower panels painted silver to match the rest of the car. Looks super! The owner tried it after I prepared several photoshops showing how it might look. Owner says he paid $250.00 and all the black parts were removed prior to painting. Wish I had better photos.

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paldi · March 2005

Here's the same car at the dealer that sold it with 500 miles on it a few months ago for $49,000. Great deal, don't you think? Glad he had the lowers painted. It transforms the car! Oh, we also discovered you can lower the Phaeton 1/2" to 1" using software. Dealer can do it in 30 minutes.

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garyh1 · March 2005

Interesting quotes from MB's Cordes in a Q&A interview with Edmunds:

"One of Mercedes-Benz's key brand values  quality  is suffering. How are you addressing this issue?
It is true, we have been having problems in this area. It has almost become negative PR for the brand. But we are going to fix these flaws, because we really do care about our core competence. Quality must come first, no question about it. It is an essential investment in future profits. How are we going to handle this matter? We will bring already delivered problem cars up to date, and we are going to implement even stricter quality controls, from the drawing board to the assembly line.

So most of the flaws are homemade?
No, quite the contrary. Look, for instance, at COMAND [Cockpit Management and Data system] or SBC [Sensotronic Brake Control]. Our biggest headaches are electronic glitches. That's why we are going to have a word with our suppliers, but at the same time we are also introducing new test and validation procedures.

Would a no-questions-asked three-year warranty not be the most convincing answer?
Such a warranty is already in place in some markets, and we are thinking about introducing it in other countries like Germany, but there is no decision yet. In a way, we'll even go beyond the warranty claims because we feel morally obliged to right the wrongs. After all, customer satisfaction is our top priority.

This is going to cost you.
a three-figure sum in a million euros, I know."

****

This may be the first time I have heard an MB executive admit that the problem is something more than a end-of-assembly-line QC issue. Of course, now it is a problem with their "suppliers". Eventually he may be able to admit that MB itself bears some responsibility! Gee, and just maybe there is some "negative PR" out there about MB reliability????

A basic business rule is that to fix a problem you first have to appropriately define it. At this rate, MB should have the reliability problem fixed within the next decade or two.

Full interview link:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=105036?mktcat=sedans&kw=HTML&mktid- =NL990339&DARTmail

stroudman · March 2005

I live in the south, so I don't see too many AWD cars. If you're looking for the current body style in a used S-class, I'd stay away from the '00 model year, since that was the first year for a hotbed of new technology, and some of them were not good cars. In the 90's car, just make sure it has complete records, and any car you're looking at should be taken to a Mercedes dealer and get a copy of the VMI for the vehicle. It will show anything done to the car through any MB service center throughout it's history, and if there is a lot of visits other than regular maintenence, I would let it pass.

In terms of price, I think if you can find a good copy of the "92-"99 S320, long- or regular wheelbase, that is a car that can be bought at a good price these days($18k -$25k). It's not a very powerful car, but the straight 6 was a great engine as long as the headgasket is changed, and should give you years of good service and a very big, comfortable ride. Most of those cars were free of problems.

stroudman · March 2005

First, for a German to admit they did something wrong is huge. There is a certain level of, oh I don't know, arrogance, there maybe, that slightly cripples the solution process.(nothing against Germans or Germany, I mean the suits at Mercedes specifically). So they have definitely taken a step in the right direction by making that admission, lets see if they can follow it up now by fostering a better relationship with their suppliers by demanding excellence. The newer cars are breaking MUCH less often than they used to, but unfortunately with all this bad press really starting to hit high gear, it will take 99.99%(100 is not the real world) trouble-free product to stop the bleeding.

michael_mattox · March 2005

I don't know what the Sensotronic Brake Control does but it sure sounds like a Safety Issue ..A big one....

Anyone know what the Sensotronic does.

ljflx · March 2005

Had dinner with some friends Saturday night and someone brought another couple along. These people had a 2000 SL500 with electronic problem after electronic problem and just dumped it after 31K miles for an XKE. Final straw was when the AC failed completely and Benz wanted $4K to fix it. Car stickered at $89K and he paid $87K and the AC fails so quickly. Imagine laying out that type of cash and your AC fails and a bunch of folks in cars 25-30% of the price idle up to you with perfectly functioning units. Guy is steamed at MB and told me I'd be nuts to want an SL as current gen also has plenty of woes. Person also has lots of problems (again electronics) with a 2002 S-class on lease and says MB folks he knows are having plenty of problems as well. I think this MB contagion is pretty widespread. I can't remember the last person who said they had a problem free Benz. This is another one of those long-time MB core customers who can't fathom what has happened to them and is exiting stage right. He will go Lexus or Jag for the family sedan when the lease ends in a few months.

stroudman · March 2005

SBC is a Bosch product. Mercedes has a soon-to-expire exclusivity agreement on them, and they first premiered in the 5th gen sl-class, and are now in the e- and cls-class as well. It's basically brake-by-wire, where the input from the brake pedal tells a computerized braking module to stop the car. It has alot of advanced features, and if the entire system were to crash, there is a mechanical back-up that will still stop the car quite safely. You can even pull the plug under the hood and test it yourself, if you wanted to. The system is noisy, and at first difficult to modulate for some drivers, but it's not dangerous.

michael_mattox · March 2005

Thank you for the response.

syswei · March 2005

Au contraire, the defective ones did prove dangerous in that some vehicles required greater than normal distances and greater than normal force applied in order to stop:
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/recalls04/mercedes_recall.html

stroudman · March 2005

The few people who encountered an issue with SBC got to learn firsthand what the system felt like in mechanical, or back-up mode which, compared to conventional braking, did require longer distances and greater force. As far as I know, there weren't any cases of catastrophic brake failures with SBC as the culprit. I could be wrong.

ljflx · March 2005

They have just bit off more than they can chew while they tried to redefine themselves. Smart is a failure to date, Maybach is below expectations (this brand would't be profitable if it exceeded expectations anyway, but it's small), MB just is lacking the ability to lead in non-engineering automotive tasks and then you have the Chrysler deal. That was a lot to handle and they are not a volume crew. Look at Toyota and how it hits it just right on these big issues. A bigger success with Lexus in year one than was expected in 1990 and a bigger than expected success right off the bat with Scion now. The volume guys will always nail expansion better than a boutique guy in any heavy manufacturing industry. Again - its the way business works.

Is he being honest - yes - given he can only say so much. As was pointed out - what he said was a big admission. One thing though - the quality improvement cost is way off. A million Euros is not even worth a mention. You can bet your life that is a small fraction of the cost and I mean extremely small.

blckislandguy · March 2005

I have only one additonal comment: if he is so morally bound to fix the problems why the footdragging on a worldwide three year warranty? Hello?? A little inconsistency there, Herr Cordes?

PS Did someone above really mean to post that a couple they knew dumped a MB for an XKE for superior reliability?? Maybe an XJ but not the XKE two seater.

denaliinpa · March 2005

boutique brand....MB? if any brand in this thread is a boutique brand it is Lexus. MB's are sold world wide. Lexus's are sold only in the US and maybe now in Japan. isn't MB/ Chrysler the worlds 4th largest automaker?

maxhonda99 · March 2005

"Lexus's are sold only in the US and maybe now in Japan."

Check your facts. Lexus' is sold in Europe although with minimal success. But you also have to remember that MBs sales in Europe are way overblown due to the the huge volume of low-priced benz's they sell with cloth trim, hubcaps, and small engines for taxi duty and to regular consumers. Otherwise, Lexus are sold in the Middle East(a big market), Australia, the Far East(china, Taiwan, Singapore, etc.).

"isn't MB/ Chrysler the worlds 4th largest automaker?"

Isn't Toyota the 3rd largest? or is that 2nd largest?

denaliinpa · March 2005

yeah...Lexus sells 20000 units per year over the entire continent!!! now if that isn't a boutique brand what is? and last i checked MB's are truly sold WORLD WIDE.... yeah...thats just how business works!

oac · March 2005

Its good to have something to beat your chest with, in light of the reality of the MB brand in the market. Don't worry, your MB is puurrfect ! Just make sure MB gives you that worry-free extended warranty. I love my boring, reliable LS. Give me a boring reliable car anyday....

ljflx · March 2005

SL to an XKE? Yep, they want a 2 seater. They had a problem free XKE prior to the horrendous SL experience that was in the family as an owned car. These people are a 3 car family with an SUV, a 2 seater and a large lux sedan. It's exactly where I am headed. They have owned nothing but S-class for the large sedan for the last 20 years though and like many are reading and experiencing the fall off of MB. By the way the SUV is the big Infiniti - also on lease.

pat · March 2005

This might interest you folks: First Drive: 2006 BMW 750i/750Li

merc1 · March 2005

I'm guessing you mean an XK8, not an XKE. One is a classic and the other is a modern day, but still in production classic.

M

ljflx · March 2005

Yes - XKE is just registered in my brain.

So what did you think of that Illini comeback?? I'm pulling for them bigtime.

lovemyclk · March 2005

"A basic business rule is that to fix a problem you first have to appropriately define it. At this rate, MB should have the reliability problem fixed within the next decade or two."

Although most folks think of TPS when they think of the source for Toyota/Lexus quality, I've been told that insiders within Toyota/Lexus will state that their best attribute as a company is "problem solving"!

Until effective problem-solving becomes culturally institutionalized in the German firms (via lean, 6-sigma, etc), quality attainment will remain painful, but not unobtainable. Accepting responsibility for past quality glitches and owning up to the challenges ahead is a great start. I'd like to believe that the trend to top quality rankings is well underway.

As both a MB and BMW owner for years, my ownership experience has been varied. My '99 ML had some issues, but the 2002 has been solid. My former CLK's, C's, and E's have been a joy, for the most part. My '03 530 SP has been the finest car I've owned to date. They all have hit the right buttons when behind the wheel.

I'll never diminish the Japanese products and am damn glad they set the bar at something! If I'm going to be known for something, there are worse things than top quality rankings!

Unabated taking of sides while damning the opposition is as palatable as the tragic Terri Schiavo case, where both sides lose. Even an art critic can live with a Degas and a Picasso in his/her collection, even though the two draw completely distinct emotional reactions.

Just wish the merits of our favorite cars could be debated with a sense of realism and passion to the degree that "different strokes for different folks" becomes the bottom line...

blckislandguy · March 2005

I suspect that many readers of this board are three car, two driver families. Seems once you hit the big 50 that you need the SUV for the boats to antiques to getting to a second home you have acquired, the two seater for summer weekends, and a sedan for whatever. The only variant on this is in the Northeast where it seems that the three vehicle family is into a big SUV (e.g., Tahoe/Denali), a small AWD cross over (e.g., Volvo XC or Lexus 301?), and a BMW sedan. This is not meant as an insult, but I rarely see anyone in a MB sedan who is vigorous and hammer down in the left lane of life.

garyh1 · March 2005

Excellent post, lovemyclk. I hope my slight attempt at sarcastic humor in the excerpt you quoted didn't place me in the camp of those guilty of "Unabated taking of sides while damning the opposition". As someone who until a few months ago had driven only European cars for the last 30 yrs (German cars only for the last 24), and who still owns 2 MBs along with 1 new Lexus, I appreciate the positives and negatives of all these manufacturers' approaches.

In particular, I would like nothing better than for MB to resolve its reliability issues, for BMW to drop its over-quirkiness, for Audi to improve its dealer network, etc., so I could go back to my old buying habits. I was sincerely happy to see Cordes mention that the QC issues go all the way from the "drawing board to the assembly line". Too bad he then seemingly tried to cover up for/placate MB's own engineers by putting all the blame on those pesky outside "suppliers". That was the substantive point I was trying to make-- you can't make a better omelet without breaking some eggs, and Cordes won't truly be able to improve quality if he doesn't focus his own troops on designing reliability directly into the product.

Interestingly, just as you stated you are glad that the Japanese have set the bar for quality, I had previously stated that I was glad MB (and some other Europeans) were around to act as innovators. And hey, maybe someday we will be thanking the Koreans like Hyundai for showing how "high end luxury" only has to cost 20% more, instead of 100-200% more, than "standard". Who knows....but of course, they still won't have MB's "heritage", right merc1?

Wake me up, I must be dreaming.

ron36330 · March 2005

MB manufacturing process is to assemble the car and correct all deficiencies after assembly. This adds to the cost of the car as they sit in post production yards awaiting QC personnel to go through each car making necessary corrections/adjustments.
Lexus builds each car correctly and will stop assembly anytime deficiencies are noted. Hence, they do not constantly repeat the same mistake over and over as does MB. The net result is that it takes fewer people (66 to be exact) to build a LS430 with little or no QC corrections upon completion of the build cycle. Net result is fewer corrections, fewer people required to build the car and a more consistent product with highly satisfied customers.
Yes, I am one of those 3 car, 2 driver families.
Toyota 4-Runner
LS 430 UL
SC430
Ron

designman · March 2005

It is reported that Porsche will show a concept of Panamera, their long-awaited 4-door sedan at the Frankfurt Auto Show this coming fall. The pix shown here are circulating around the internet but they are photochops. I would expect the concept and final version to be quite different even though it will no doubt have the Porsche styling genes that are demonstrated below.

Here's the kicker. Don't be surprised if it shows up hybrid.

Porsche has been dancing with Toyota and has recently announced that they are pursuing a hybrid Cayenne using licensed Toyota technology. Reportedly, the sedan will be using both versions of the Cayenne 4.5 engine, 340hp and 450hp turbo. So, given Porsche's need to economize, parts-sharing fits the picture just as it did with the 911 and Boxster, without which the Boxster could not have been built.

Perhaps more important, there will be new and tougher emission standards in place by the time Panamera is launched. Since Porsche is a performance manufacturer who sells most of their cars in the US, emissions have been a thorn in their side. On top of their Cayenne which is a portly beast that now accounts for more than 50% of their sales, a new conventional performance sedan could negate the emissions benefit of adding a hybrid Cayenne to their fleet, not to mention the increases in engine performance of the 911 and Boxster.

Then there is Toyota who has publicly stated that they want to bring their hybrid technology worldwide. A hybrid performance Porsche would be a coup, a marketing tool for Toyota's brainchild without competing with Lexus. It would be a poster child for their technology.

Lastly, Ferdinand Porsche is credited with being the first to develop hybrid power early in the 20th century. This scenario fits the Porsche heritage and mission like a glove. Mission? You bet. If a 4-second hybrid Lexus is in development for a luxury format, picture that kind of performance on a Porsche suspension.

It is very early in the process for a Porsche sedan. Rumors mean squat. It will gain credence when Porsche announces a commitment to proceed. As we know, showing a concept is not a commitment. But it appears that Panamera is in the think tank and we may know a lot more this fall.

Well, it's just a thought. In any event, you heard it here first.

merc1 · March 2005

Awesome game. I saw just the last half of it while in Detroit.

I'm am betting man so I have a lot riding on this!

M

ljflx · March 2005

So are you betting on your homestate?

merc1 · March 2005

Of course!

M

merc1 · March 2005

"Who knows....but of course, they still won't have MB's "heritage", right merc1?"

Of course not. Mercedes' heritage is the oldest and most grand, now all they have to bring the quality/reliabilty back up to that standard again.

M

footie · March 2005

Everytime I see a post about 'innovation' from European car companies these days, it makes me want to throw up. You'd have to be a car salesman and an asleep at the switch buyer to believe that!

We all know that the European car companies have some work to do getting their cars built right, but personally, I am still waiting for the European car makers like BMW and Mercedes to do something innovative other than develop terrible user-interfaces (iDrive) or add more useless gears to their automatic transmissions.

Sure Mercedes was innovative once, but I think that not only has their quality and reliability suffered, but their ability to innovate in a significant way has fallen by the wayside.

Sure they have lot's of "heritage" from back in the days when they were a high quality and innovative car company, but I don't think so any more.

Toyota and other Japanese owned car companies are ALWAYS ranted about here as being copy-cats and folks that are good at refining and perfecting someone else's technology.

I think that they have taken on the innovators mantle too. The next Lexus 400h and Toyota Highlander Hybrid are to quote Wards:

"For the record, the RX 400h is the first luxury hybrid electric vehicle (HEV) on the market, and the Highlander is the first 7-passenger HEV. Both are full HEVs, in that they can run in electric-only or gasoline-engine-only mode, or both. They also represent the first 4-wheel-drive hybrids, with a third electric motor sending power to the rear wheels."

They will sell everyone they build at list or better to folks in the long lines waiting to buy them.

This isn't derivative technology from Germany. These are independently developed, complete, integrated drive systems. I beleive that German car companies are working on marrying electric and diesel and still trying to figure out how to get some performance out of two low horsepower, high torque engine systems. Duh?

While Toyota was developing these exciting new vehicles, Mercedes has been struggling to build a new ML off of conventional technology and fabricate it in Alabama hoping that it isn't a quality and reliability disaster like the original.

Meanwhile, Infiniti and Acura have redefined what AWD systems are all about while 4matic is still 4 matic and Quattro, though updated, is still all-mechanical.

I think that when we talk about these kinds of vehicles we ought to recognize where the innovation these days is really happening.

Cordes can prattle about all he wants, but the marketplace is the measure of success.

maxhonda99 · March 2005

I don't think I could totally agree with you about Europe not innovating anymore. Because a company like Volvo still innovates many safety advances. And Mercedes has a soon to come out big new innovation-a engine with no camshafts but rather electronically actuated valves.

But I do think people overlook Japanese innovation. Nissan is trying to bring back 4-wheel steering, which if I'm right they innovated originally with super HICAS 4-wheel steering back in the late 80s. Not to mention Honda and it's great new AWD system on the RL and they innovated variable valve timing. And Toyota and HOnda have probably the biggest innovation in years with Hybrid drive systems.

ljflx · March 2005

I'm in your corner on this one. Any one of the 4 teams can win but NC has to be viewed as the favorite with their potential NBA stars. But they are lucky to have survived a few tight games that they could have easily lossed. Should be another fun set of games.

Footie & maxhonda - good points.

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