High End Luxury Cars

stroudman · April 2005

Not all dealers are the same, but where I work, I view my clients as my employer. I LOVE it when a prospect comes through my door, spends hours of my time getting a very good education on the car, and grinds and grinds on the price, (which at these price points is so tacky) and then the famous words "I'll have to think about it," which is fine. I never lean on anybody. But then they never follow up with me, and become mysteriously unreachable. So a month or two later, I see them pull up on a saturday, when my service lane is closed, with a busted tire or wish to drop the car off for service, a car with a competitor's decal on it. "where's my loaner?" they ask, and I'll need my car back ASAP, they say. The techs and advisors will be back on monday morning, in the meantime (here's the good part), the guy who did nothing for you other than beat my NUMBER is who you'll have to call if you want anything special. Why on earth would I do anything special for someone who wasted my time and expertise, which is just as important as theirs, and wasn't willing to pay me for it?

-shocking isn't it?

denaliinpa · April 2005

i understand this....there is not at this time an LS430 hybrid for sale. what will it cost? how dependable will it be? what will the resale value be? these are all determining factors for any "reasonably intelligent" buyer. isn't it great that the Lexus crowd love to debate the benefits of a vehicle that is not even in production!
talk about logic. would it not be logical to at least see some of these vehicles on the road before we say how great they are :confuse: ?

denaliinpa · April 2005

what safety features are omitted from the S430???
food for thought....it's spelled "brakes".

pat · April 2005

Please keep your comments focused on the vehicles and not each other.

What is it that goes on between a few of you? Lexus and Mercedes-Benz both make outstanding vehicles. Each offers some things the other does not. These things appeal to different audiences - that's what makes the automotive world interesting.

Why this means grown men (I assume??) have to get into a mud-throwing one-upmanship match about which manufacturer is the single gift to the automotive world - to the total exclusion of the other - is beyond me. Each manufacturer has contributed greatly to our automotive world, past and present. Each has its flaws, each has its attributes. Those issues contrast between the manufacturers but do NOT mean either is some kind of pariah in our world ... why keep behaving as though something you don't like about "the other side" makes that manufacturer worthless??

Are there not other "high end luxury marques" to discuss? Does this entire conversation have to be solely a few MB enthusiasts and a few Lexus enthusiasts throwing sarcasm and insults at each other?

Can't it be about what is good about each brand instead of choosing off sides and denigrating the other? Or here is a thought - maybe we could have some thoughtful discussion about what improvements could and should be made on BOTH sides without all the chest-beating, mine-is-better-than-yours-because-I-say-so garbage?

If there is no other territory to cover here, I'd say this discussion has run way past its purpose and it's time to say good night Gracie.

stroudman · April 2005

-Does anyone else think it's ironic that as much bad press as I-drive has gotten, that audi has, and mercedes will have similar systems in their cars? Joe DeMatio of automobile mag equated it to eating a burger, drinking a beer, and talking on the phone while trying to drive, and I would tend to agree. Even if the succeeding versions of it become simpler and more reliable, it's still too much for a driver to deal with, IMO.

-speaking of the four door Porsche, could it be that they will also someday broaden their product line to the point that they're trying to be all things to all people, like benz for example? I would love to see mercedes cut their offerings in half again...3 sedan sizes, a couple of sports cars and wagons, maybe one SUV/crossover, and that's about it. An S-class would cost $150k, and be so well developed and reliable that it would once again dust everything, from every angle possible.

- 7-series update...better, worse, too little too late?

-Does anyone care that Jaguar has one foot in the grave?

-volkswagens' march upmarket is not going to work.

denaliinpa · April 2005

stroudman i have an 05 A8 and so far i really like the mmi. the system is no more distracting than a navigation system. for the items
used most there are redundant controls on the steering wheel so as not to distract you from the road. with all of the electronics now in vehicles it seems to be
almost a necessity to have such systems.

as for the 7 too little too late. i liked the front end better before the update
and the backend still looks the same to me. the interior materials of the 7
are the bright spot of the car along with the new engine.

as for Jaguar the question should probably be does anyone care about Ford.
i do just like i care about GM. i have two GMC's in my driveway.
it is important for everyone in the US to have an interest in seeing these companies flourish. even with the globalism argument and foreign manufacturers with plants in the US i am still biased towards the domestics.

VW will make it with the Phaeton imo as long as they continue with a second
generation and try to keep the price point around 55-60k. that seems to me to be the natural next step in price from a loaded Passat. when it comes to the
Phaeton try to keep in mind it is not just a US market vehicle. the T-reg has
had good sales in the 50k area so it would seem reasonable that the Phaeton would also.

paldi · April 2005

Hard to do that with the Phaeton. Loaded car is sticker-ed at $76,500. That includes the must have options including the comfort package, tech package and stereo upgrade. Personally, I can do without the seat massagers but want the A/C cooling in the seats. Need the power soft-close trunk but might do without the park sensors. DVD Navigation and a phone are both must haves now. I really want a solar sunroof - like you have in the A8! There's not a lot you can leave off and still be in this lux class! Nobody wants a base car...

blckislandguy · April 2005

Stroudman, I'm not as up on the MB line as apparently I should be. Do you mean to say that they offer MORE than "3 sedan sizes, a couple of sports cars and wagons, and maybe one SUV/crossover"? Wow. Talk about line extension and dilution. No focus. Crazy.

Jaguar's present condition surprises me. Unlike MB they have a focused line: three sedans, one with a wagon variant, and a two seater. The product is great, the XJ sedans are 10K-15K less than the problematic Germans, the new sports car looks great, the AWD sedan and now a touring wagon variant are ideal for the Northeast, etc. What's not to like? Yet they can't move the iron. Probably they are hobbled by reliability legacy issues, the lack of a macho, uber sedan image, and as a result low residuals which means higher lease payments in this predominantly lease driven market segment.

Because of this, probably the best deal out there in the high end market is a year old (new alu design ) XJ sedan for maybe 49K or less. Think about it: no reliability problems, no image problems (i.e, the boss arriving in a MB at 9:00 AM), picnic trays in the back seat for those summer jaunts up to the Finger Lakes with Cindy, much better customer service at a much less crowded Service Advisors desk, and a ride that can't be beat. Ask Brock Yates of Car and Driver.

michael_mattox · April 2005

Stoudman:

Because that person bought a car from you...He paid an excessive price for it, he likes good service...and diserves good service. Those are the reasons you should give him good service...If you want a repeat customer.

blckislandguy · April 2005

I don't think Stroudman was referring to a customer. Rather he was referring to an arrogant sort who thought he could get the best of both worlds: a great price and free extraordinary customer service from someone else. Kind of like bringing your clothes purchased at Macy's into Gimbels for free alterations.

xkss · April 2005

The next Jaguar S-Type will likely use the new XJ's aluminum chassis and have styling cues from the 2001 Jaguar R Coupe and the 2003 Jaguar RD-6. I think the grille and headlights need some work, but it looks nice.

The Jaguar Advanced Lightweight Coupe shows what the next XK might look like. The next XK will have to comply with new European pedestrian safety regulations. The next XK will use the new XJ's aluminum chassis which is 40 % lighter and 60 % stiffer than if it were steel. Some people complain how that Jaguar concept looks too much like an Aston Martin, which may be true, but at least the next Jaguar XK will have a new aluminum chassis. One thing I noticed between that Jaguar conept and new Astons is how the rear tappers off like the current XK8 vs. the crease around the rear trunk/window of new Astons. New Astons have a chassis that is NOT shared with Jaguars.

Here is a link to pictures of it. There are also pictures of the Jaguar XKR of Rocketsports Racing that races in the Trans-Am Series which dominated last year. It has 4.5 liters and 650 hp and a 9,000 rpm reline. Its engine is based on Jaguar's 4.2 liter V-8. Jaguar's 4.2 liter V-8 is much better than the old 4.0 liter V-8 which came out with the 1997 XK8.

Also, the link shows a 2005 XK8, but it says it is an XKR (which is false).

http://www.fast-autos.net/features/05naias/jaguar/index.html

Here is the new XJ's aluminum chassis:

The 2005 Jaguar Super V8 weighs over 800 pounds less than a BMW 760Li.

"The complete body with weighs 650 pounds compared with an estimated 1,058 pounds for the same car in steel, 952 pounds for a Mercedes-Benz S-class, and 955 pounds for a 7-series BMW."

- from The Inside Guide to the all-new aluminum Jaguar XJ by Automobile Magazine

Here is an article from wardsauto.com about Jaguar and aluminum. (It mentions a 2010 XK but this article was written before Jaguar announced the X150, the code name for the next XK).

Jaguar Cars Castle Bromwich assembly plant in the U.K. is preparing its case for more aluminum vehicles, having successfully validated the concept with the now-profitable aluminum XJ.

The upfront investment is paying off, says Mark White, Jaguar senior body structures manager for Jaguar and Land Rover Vehicles for Ford Motor Co. The XJ is profitable, he says.

The next step is the business case for future aluminum monocoque Jaguars. Following the brands cycle plan, the next-generation S-Type would be up for consideration first, as an 06 or 07 model, followed by the XK around 2010.

Bromwich assembles the current S-Type and XK, but only the XJ has an aluminum body mated to a steel subframe.

Ford has invested in a dedicated aluminum pressing facility at Bromwich for the XJ. The stamping facility, adjacent to the body assembly line, can handle aluminum versions of the S-Type and XK, should the auto maker go that route in the next-generation.

We have the ability to do all three (cars in) aluminum if the business case is there, White says.

We know what it costs to do it for other models. But if they dont meet the cost target, we wont do it, he says, noting he will have a series of deadlines to meet over the next three years.

The technology is ever evolving, and that plays into the business case as well. We want to develop the technology even further, White says.

The auto maker is identifying where costs are too high and working to reduce them. The goal is to further cut weight (aluminum currently reduces weight 40%-45% over steel); develop an even more efficient aluminum body structure; and improve manufacturing, such as rationalizing some of the 17 different riveting processes.

The rivet process also can be improved from an awkward system of rivets in a long band of tape to a blow-feed operation where they are loaded into a hopper and shot out like a dart gun through an air tube to nearby rivet guns.

Piloted on the long-wheelbase XJ, the process is being validated for future use as well. Switching from a tape feed to blow feed for the rivets will save $25 per vehicle, White says.

Alcan Inc. has been a partner with Jaguar, coming up with adhesive bonding that dramatically increases stiffness, which allows for lower gauge (thinner) aluminum to be used and saving on material cost, says Mike Kelly, Alcan Automotive vice president-global program director.

Alcan also does pre-treatment and pre-lubrication work. Additionally, the aluminum producer developed the just-in-time supply route for the 125 parts it sends to Bromwhich.

Kelly explains the aluminum starts in smelters in Quebec, Canada. Facilities in Western Germany do hot-rolling, and plants in Eastern Germany produce cold-rolled aluminum.

A finishing line does the pre-treatment and pre-lubrication. There is a laser-blank cut-to-length line in the U.K. and a storage facility feeding nearby Bromwich.

In 2003, Alcan supplied Jaguar with 1 million laser blanks, Kelly says."

Here is Mark White

I think Jaguar needs to drop the X-Type. I hope they make a new 2 seater aluminum sports car with styling from the Jaguar F-Type of a few years ago.

pat · April 2005

Please post a link to the article you are quoting so that we're not in any copyright hot water - thanks.

sv7887 · April 2005

Hi All,
As a big fan of Jaguar I can't help but be disappointed with their new XJ. It looks too much like the X-type. It lacks the flair of the old model. Ford hasn't shown alot of wisdom in building a downmarket car that bears a strong resemblance to the Ford Mondeo. No one has been fooled. They simply lack the current generation technology that the other marques have. Also they've had some very embarassing problems with Nikasil coated engines and water pumps that fail without warning. If you look at some Jag formus you'll see what I'm talking about. As a result residuals are terrible.

You can pick up a 3yr old XJ for something in the mid $20K's. With the Select Edition Warranty, it's a good value, but do you want something that could possibly strand you? I've read enough Jag forums to know that they've had hoses suddenly fail and strand the driver. Another issue is upper tensioner chains. You'd think a mass produced car like the XJ wouldn't suffer from these problems.

As much as I love the old XJ, I'm inclined to stick with my LS cars. While the LS lacks the allure of the XJ, it does give you a piece of mind. I've maintained that if Lexus could design cars with a Jaguar flair, they'd sell like hot cakes. I do hope they pull through however, as there is nothing like a Jaguar.

SV

michael_mattox · April 2005

I do know what he is talking about and Personally I expect quality service....The same service as every other customer gets from LEXUS...and they give it to me. And that is the way it should be.

pablo_l · April 2005

As a former huge jaguar fan and customer, I echo your sentiments. When I bought my first Jag in '97, it was my dream car. Customer service was the best I have ever experienced. When I bought my second in '00, they had rolled out the S, and were ready to roll out the X, and customer commitment went down from there. And since there were issues with my XJR, and it is inexcusable to swindle $3k out of customers that just spent $70k on a car -in my humble opinion- they lost me as a customer. I am not *that* emotional about any car or brand. Their ongoing design fiascos -faux classic Brit- show they are headed towards obliteration, sadly. What was once my favorite car brand holds no remote resemblance of desirability for me anymore...

xkss · April 2005

The new Jaguar XJ's 4.2 liter V-8 does NOT have the Nikasil coated engines and water pumps problems of the old 4.0 liter V-8.

The new XJ has a curve in its rear doors that starts at the end, like old Jaguars. The previous XJ didn't have that curve.

The new XJ's outer headlights are bigger than the inner headlights, like the original XJ.

The new XJ's wheels are pushed out to the corners, like the original XJ.

The new Porsche 911 looks good and its styling hasn't changed much over the 40 years.

Here is a 2004 XJR in "Zircon" with the optional 20 inch BBS wheels.

Here is another 2004 XJR.

The new aluminum XJ was tested extensively at Germany's demanding Nurburgring race track.

As to the new XJ's technology.

As I've said before, the 2005 Jaguar Super V8 weighs over 800 pounds less than a BMW 760Li thanks to its advanced aluminum chassis and use of relevant technology.

The new XJR and Super V8 come standard with Brembo brakes which include four-piston calipers.

The new XJ has a ZF 6 speed automatic transmission which I found to be quite responsive when I drove one (a 2004 XJR).

The new XJR has optional 20 inch BBS wheels which are high quality.

The new XJ will be available with Bluetooth next month.

xkss · April 2005

more pictures of the new XJ's aluminum chassis which is 40 % lighter and 60 % stiffer than if it were steel. The new XJ uses magnesium in its seat frames.

oac · April 2005

I sure appreciate the new angle to this forum, and welcome it whole-heartedly. But I am no Jag fan and think Jaguar is well past its glory days with Ford at the helm of affairs. But that new XK concept is a real beaut if they build it "as-is". Saw it at the SD auto show in January, and it got featured in the April MT issue. Real positive styling direction imo.

oac · April 2005

xkss · April 2005

is past their glory days, as is just about every other car maker (except for perhaps Aston Martin). The new 1995-1997 Jaguar XJ is a reliable luxury car. The new XJ has also been much more reliable than the previous XJ while having more quality. That article I posted about Jaguar and aluminum pointed out that the HUGE investment for aluminum Jaguars is continuingly being developed. The next XK will use the new XJ's aluminum chassis which will spread costs. The next S-Type would further spread costs if it used the new XJ's aluminum chassis.

I'm not to sure about the styling of new BMWs. They had record sales last year along with record recalls and service actions. Here is a 2004 BMW 5 series and a second generation M5 which was handbuilt (so was 1st generation) unlike the new V-8 and V-10-powered M5s. All second generation M5s had forged aluminum wheels.

(BMW also built an M5 Touring from 92-95)

Here is a BMW 850CSi (big, fast BMW coupe for the 90s)

Here is a new 6 series

Here is the revised 7 series

Here is the new M6

xkss · April 2005

read this article

Car & Driver picked up their long-term 2004 XJR in the summer of 2004, which was shorty after production of the new aluminum XJ began.

Car & Driver's long-term 2004 Jaguar XJR

Also, the 2005 Jaguar Super V8, the flagship XJ, gets better fuel economy than the BMW 760Li.

pat · April 2005

Those links are not working - I think the ellipsis in the middle of them is the problem. I hope the software here didn't insert it. We've had some issues with links lately ...

stroudman · April 2005

My service dept. and tech's are as good as they come. Our CSI rating stays consistently in the top 10 in our region, which is 6 states. So from that perspective, most folks are happy.

....but, membership has it's privileges.

As I've said before, if you're shopping in this pricepoint, for any brand, that means somewhere, someone is paying you a significant profit, and life is VERY good. If you take up my time and expertise, then take your business elsewhere over the few dollars in net profit Benz places on their vehicle, then you get from me what you paid for. If you're putting more importance on the moment of glory at point of sale, than on the years ahead, then that is what you bought yourself. Again, why in the world would I stay late, provide free transportation, overnight a part or accessory, do anything for a person who put money in someone else's coffers?

michael_mattox · April 2005

I would think the price of membership is simply buying the high priced car in the first place....

It is not the buyers privledge to use the service dept ..it is his right...Quality Service is critical in the high end market...as is Friendly, Accomodating, knowledgable staff from the receptionist to sales to service to management should be the norm and not a Privdledge handed out to a few "Special" customers...Those that can afford your product are all Special.

When those of us who own Lexus talk about the company and the Car ...the service is one of the big reasons we become repeat customers not just the outstanding quality and value of the machine itself.

designman · April 2005

If you take up my time and expertise, then take your business elsewhere over the few dollars in net profit Benz places on their vehicle, then you get from me what you paid for.

I dont understand. When I take my BMW in for service I deal with the service department not salesperson. Haven't had a problem. They also go out of their way to get me the type of loaner car I ask for. I attribute this to the good business practices of the specific dealer. Are you telling us that your service department sucks and clients have to come back to you for support? You expect customers to pay you for this arrangement? I am all for the salesperson making a living, but it sounds like there could be something rotten in Denmark at your dealership and among your competing dealerships. Your gripe should be with MB and the dealership, not the clients.

garyh1 · April 2005

Michael, I think you may be missing Stroudman's point. It's certainly true that anyone can use the service dept of any dealer and deserves to be treated courteously and fairly; I am sure Stroudman would agree on that. But if you want to have a personal advocate in the sales dept. on your side asking for your car to be moved up in the waiting line, or for a free loaner in circumstances in which it is not technically required under the manufacturer's warranty to be provided, etc., then you need to be a customer of the sales dept. That just makes sense. The sales dept. is not paid a salary by the manufacturer-- the salespeople feed their families based on the customers who do business with them; they (usually) are not stockholders of the manufacturer!

In my personal experience, I have had salespeople befriend me even though I hadn't bought a car from them (like when I moved to a new town, etc.), likely with the hope that I would buy my next car from them. But if you shop the car with a salesperson, then go buy it somewhere else, and then come back to the local salesperson and ask for some extra favors, human nature is such that you are likely to note at least a hint of displeasure from the salesperson.

stroudman · April 2005

Thank you, gary, that's all I was trying to say...

michael_mattox · April 2005

garyh:

I understand fully...If I shop with Several Sales people in my area...

1) I am likely to go back to the Dealer I bought from.

2) If I bought from out of the Area and am using the local dealer for service that is potentually considerable income to them...If I dealt with the Sales guy there but bought somewhere else...HE NEEDS to understand I will buy another car someday, My wife and my Daughter will need cars someday....The fact that he or his dealership could not be competitive and provide me the support I needed to get a good price from them the first time around SHOULD NOT MATTER...I will be a buyer again and they are getting another chance TO EARN MY BUSINESS.

pat · April 2005

Folks, let's talk about the cars and the manufacturers here, okay? We've got an entire board dedicated to best (and worst) sales practices at this link: Smart Shopper. Browse through the list of discussions there and continue in any one that seems appropriate.

Thanks!

designman · April 2005

I just took a good look at a CLS that is parked where I work. The interior looks nice although small. MB did another horrible job with lamp design... the same ol' cheese wedges in the back, and a feeble ripoff of the old Porsche L assembly in the front. The exterior shape and surface topography remind me of a banana. This alone is overwhelming. Enough said. I dub this vehicle... The Banana.

stroudman · April 2005

Sorry, I never meant to indicate that benz had several MORE sedans than that, just that that is the most they would offer, with choices in engine and trim, as well. I personally tend to think of mercedes-benz as an entity that has fallen victim to popularity, kind of like a great band that starts getting too big of a following, and playing bigger and bigger venues. There's too many people talking in their ear; "play this arena" and "try to sound more like so-and-so, their records are HOT!" Don't get me wrong, I love their current "sound," I just wish they would regroup and quit trying so hard for the mass appeal, that was never what made them special, and they're not very good at it.

ljflx · April 2005

Great point. I've been saying this for awhile and so has merc1. Great boutiques never become great dept. stores. BTW - I completely side with you on the maintenance issue. In my book it's wrong for the customer to even ask.

dhanley · April 2005

"Also, the 2005 Jaguar Super V8, the flagship XJ, gets better fuel economy than the BMW 760Li."

True. But the 760 is heavier, and has more HP and torque. No bad for 1 less mpg highway, 2 less city.

I agree with your BMW styling comments; i am not pleased with the new look. Jag definitely, IMO, makes a pretier vehicle.

PS: i think we all know what the aluminum frame looks like now.

dave

rcf8000 · April 2005

I got my May R&T today. I was especially surprised that the S500 came in dead last in the rankings, even though it had the best 0-60 time, the best 1/4 mile time, the highest "ride" score, the highest "gearbox" score, the lowest 70 mph noise level, and the highest observed mpg of the 5 cars tested. This is pretty amazing performance for a car that is in its 7th year of production and about to be replaced. The S500 was the only one of the cars with 17 inch wheels; the others had 19s or 18s. Maybe this had something to do with its relatively low handling and braking scores? The S500 also had the second to lowest weight of the 5 cars. Doesn't seem like its an obsolete design to me.

designman · April 2005

Are you going to keep us hanging? Can you give us a synopsis of the results? Just Euro Sedans? Good, that may keep a lid on the Circular Talk Society. Unless of course someone from the Land of the Rising Sun Club launches a missile at Stuttgart.

"Doesn't seem like its an obsolete design to me."

Well we have the RL Large coming out soon. Progress you know.

rcf8000 · April 2005

Ranking from 1st to 5th: 745Li, A8L, XJ8L, Phaeton V8, and S500. The ranking was the same for price-independent and price-dependent.

designman · April 2005

Thanks.

stroudman · April 2005

too tired to indulge it today, daylight savings time has me turned upside down. I will try to strike one blow if I can...

-When you look far and wide enough, you can dig up some dirt on every culture, government, business entity, etc., out there. When it comes to ethics, politics, morals and the like, you can't judge the past in the context of the present.

-I'll say this, as much as I LOVE the CLS, and I do, I am glad they don't offer it in yellow.

xkss · April 2005

No way.

I'm glad luxury cars like the Maserati Quattroporte are made. It isn't just a way to get from point A to point B like a Lexus LS. It has soul in a way that a Lexus will never match. Plus, it is going to be available with a Ferrari V-12 according to autoweek.com

Jaguar should have given Road & Track the new Super V8 to test. The S500 starts at almost $87,000 while the Super V8 starts at $89,995.

"During World War II, the company [Toyota] was dedicated to truck production for the Imperial Army."

from http://www.japan-101.com/business/toyota.htm

stroudman · April 2005

Good God, that is a beautiful car. Have you driven one? When it comes to style, the Italians definately provide lots of "eye."

syswei · April 2005

A real looker, imho. I haven't driven one but if I recall, the autorags didn't like the ride very much.

syswei · April 2005

My parents stayed away from Japanese cars until they were over 60 years old, now they've owned both Acura and Lexus...before that it was various GM, Ford, and even Fiat product (none of which they were terribly happy with)...

...they were in China at the time Japan invaded...

There are people out there who similarly won't buy German product because of the war association.

Time to get over it all, imho. The people working for those companies now are not old enough to have had anything to do with WW2.

oac · April 2005

What happened ?

Anyway, I'm going to try to repost the salient links, again.

blckislandguy · April 2005

Stroudman, you're a good man. Some people just don't understand (and this lack of understanding often is positively correlated with income and formal education) that reciprocity is the basic norm of social life. To have to remind a high income adult of this is absurd.

Attn: Jag bashers: BMW used the Nikasil liners in their 7 Series also a decade or so ago. The results are easily seen on the 7 Series Board where they discuss the lousy V8 engines of the mid-90s.

XKSS, thanks for the great photos and links. The XJ sedan in Zircon looks fantastic and I think given the low MSRP is a good buy.

Now, if Jaguar would just call Haldex (the supplier of the electronic AWD to Volvo) they would have a chance of moving up in the big sedan market and perhaps put to rest that it is a "woman's car". I know I am thin ice when I say this, but a lot of the target audience in the Northeast tend to be males that go into the hospital, plant or office early and stay late. They are now doing this in MB four matics or lux SUVs because 6 months a year you maybe ain't going to get home at 8PM in a rear wheel driver. Say the AWD bumped up the XJ Moroney by 3K. That would still be thousands under a comparable S four matic, there is no 7 Series AWD, and Lexus ? By going AWD with the sedan it would open up the Northeast US market. .

oac · April 2005

The competition

http://q45.spilky.com/cd1989comparison/CD_12_89_Showdown_pg1.pdf

The stats

http://q45.spilky.com/cd1989comparison/CD_12_89_Showdown_pg10.pdf

And the final ratings/scores....

http://q45.spilky.com/cd1989comparison/CD_12_89_Showdown_pg12.pdf

oac · April 2005

Strange coincidence today for me as well. I was driving out of the parking lot of the office and there, in stark contrast to the rest of the car-masses rested a new silver/black CLS500. I stared for a long second to see the *banana-like* impression you alluded to, but alas, what I saw was an Oldsmobile Aurora impersonator ! That car is just not doing it for me. Too much curves, too slopy, too droopy, too.... ran out of adjectives....

What's the point/purpose of the CLS again ? cos I don't get it....

oac · April 2005

I am headed out to Tokyo and S Korea for a couple of weeks in June and should scoop up as much info as I can get on the Lexus launch in Japan, and especially on the new IS/GS/LS/LX and their hybrid variants..... I am so much looking forward to that trip. I have already arranged to arrive 2 days ahead of my business meetings to spend some time looking and nosing around.

stroudman · April 2005

Anyone who wants to complain about droopy front ends needs to direct an equal amount of ire to the new 6-series. Maybe even more...

-the point of the CLS is a more eccentric design statement from Benz, perhaps the same way the 300/magnum are to chrysler-dodge, that also blends practicality (4-doors, big trunk) with emotional elements of an impractical sports car. It has definitely polarized people, they either feel strongly one way or the other about it, but very few are indifferent. You should drive one...

xkss · April 2005

An XJ with awd would be nice, but I'd like a limited-slip differential more and snow tires.

iancar · April 2005

Many people may find this funny. A luxury minivan? Or found the minivan trend had been ended a decade ago. Sorry to say, Japanese companies had brewed this idea for a decade now. Japan's luxurious minivans are now killing the sell of SUV and luring some big sedans buyers. Just back from Japan, I was offered to set inside a honda Elysion (Honda? yes). The interiors are identical to the 7-series and everything inside is exectly what you would expect from a limo. My Japanese friend told me that "SUV have deep deperciation because not many people are looking for them anymore" As a sidenote, Japanese fuel cost about $2.5-3.5 per gallon and SUV are closed to extinction. European fuel cost about $3.5-4.5 per gallon and big cars become harder to find. What about North America? Will the luxury market fall into the same trend? From SUV drop to minivan(or worse, big wheelers to small size luxury)? R-class from MB seems to be a destine loser to me but could this hit the new world as M-class did a decade ago?

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