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Like I said before, we'll see what happens. There is no way Lexus is going to charge the same money for the LS compared to the next S-Class, that would kill one of their longest running themes, being cheaper than a Mercedes. Sure they'll increase prices for 2007. They base LSxxx will probably be a 60-65K car, but you can bet the next S-Class won't even be close to that, unless they sell the next generation S350 here, which they might. If the LS truly sold for S-Class prices there wouldn’t be anything to debate about sales. Such a thing would mean that one car is better suited to the market in most peoples mind, whether ir be reliablity, options or whatever. That said, you’ll be waiting a long time for a LS to base at 77K.
"Never presume to speak for everyone but I speak from personal experience and experience from friends/family and from reviewing these and other boards with numerous Merc reliability complaints. Its no secret even to those blinded with admiration."
This is what everything goes back to reliability. You think I don't know about this? You think I believe that it doesn't exist? Really now.
"Value is intrinsic to the car itself not related to 'the price difference between two cars'. I do not understand what you are trying to distinguish here Merc perhaps this is where we run afoul."
Probably so. I think that such a huge price difference is integral in making the value argument to most people.
M
If the LS truly sold for S-Class prices there wouldn’t be anything to debate about sales. In your/this case I would agree.
Such a thing would mean that one car is better suited to the market in most peoples mind, whether ir be reliability, options or whatever. Might you insert prestige' for whatever? Point taken?
That said, you’ll be waiting a long time for a LS to base at 77K. The longer the better! The way that Lexus has gouged on the 2006 GS though, you will not have your precious $10-14K buffer to argue in '07 with the LS. Yes, we will see...
Probably so. I think that such a huge price difference is integral in making the value argument to most people. Generally speaking, content and performance being a wash, then I would agree lower price means better value.
The prestige argument is bunk imo. Period.
You and I will have to agree to disagree on the definition of "value". There is no written standard for what "value" is. It is what each buyers sees it to be.
M
What is "bunk" about prestige? Do you doubt that prestige is something people are willing to pay for? Or is it that you doubt that prestige could be "worth" 5-figures to the average S-buyer? Or what?
No, don't doubt it at all. Question is how do you measure this? How do you who thinks a car is more prestigious and how many bought that car because of this. Prestige imo isn't as high up on the scale as other things like performance, safety, styling, reliability, comfort, room etc. Its a perception not something you can measure from car to car by just looking at them.
"Or is it that you doubt that prestige could be "worth" 5-figures to the average S-buyer?"
Nope, don't doubt that either for a buyer looking at a 100K S-Class. The "average" S-Class isn't a "5-figure" car though.
"Or what?"
Bingo! Let me be clear here. I think the theory about "prestige" canceling out a 12-20K price difference for the average buyer is bunk. The only way for this theory to be true is for every buyer to be able to afford both. Problem is we don't have a way of knowing what percentage of buyers can or can't afford either car.
M
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/050503/auto_sales.html?.v=6
Just as we can't measure how important price is to the average S or LS buyer. I mean, do we know for a fact how many potential S buyers bought an LS because they could afford an LS but not an S? No. Just as we don't know for a fact how many potential LS buyers chose to buy an S because the LS wasn't prestigious enough for them.
The best sign that in this price category, prestige could be worth 12-20k? The base LX costs 10k more than the base TLC. There are some equipment differences (worth $3k to me as an LX owner, but that's imho). But the LX sells 50% more units than the TLC (1q05). Surely that's a sign that Lexus could raise LX prices (I would guess to 15-20k over the TLC imho) and still sell the same number of units as the TLC. In other words there is actual evidence that at the LX/TLC level, the prestige factor is indeed worth at least 10k.
So while we can't directly measue the impact of either price or prestige, it is indeed possible that at the S/LS level, prestige could be "worth" the 12-20k you keep talking about.
http://www.prnewswire.com/
Another good site is here.
http://wardsauto.com/
Not so, not every buyer has to be able to afford both for the theory to be true. The theory could be true if the number of buyers who buy an S over an LS because of prestige exceeds the number of buyers who can afford the LS but not the S.
Lexus + 0.6%
MB -7.3%
BMW +.005%
Audi -0.5%
BMW did see a 9-10% drop in car sales and about a 30% rise in suv sales which offset it. MB saw a noticable drop in E-class sales but probably due to cannibalization by the CLS. If you add CLS to E-class, as I would, than that group is +10%.
Didn't get the others but this is the thrust of the forum anyway.
"Just as we can't measure how important price is to the average S or LS buyer."
" I mean, do we know for a fact how many potential S buyers bought an LS because they could afford an LS but not an S?"
"Just as we don't know for a fact how many potential LS buyers chose to buy an S because the LS wasn't prestigious enough for them."
The first two are just spins on what I've said all along, of the circular talk society ilk. The last one is just plainly the same thing you've been trying to say and I still think its nonsense. Price is real thing that makes a difference. Prestige is just a perception and it depends ultimately what the buyer can afford in the first place. Prestige means absolutely nothing, nada unless the buyer can afford either car, which goes back to your points 1 and 2. Back to square one it seems!
The LX and TLC is both a good and bad example. Its a good example because its the same truck being sold to those fooled into thinking they're getting some exclusive for that Lexus badge, yes that is Lexus' prestige at work on those who want a Toyota product either way.
Its a bad example because their price gap isn't nearly as large as the S vs. LS and the TLC is dud anyway. I don't ever remember it selling in any great numbers until it got its wood trim and "L" badge.
"So while we can't directly measue the impact of either price or prestige, it is indeed possible that at the S/LS level, prestige could be "worth" the 12-20k you keep talking about."
Repeating this doesn't make it so. I guess you'll never understand that to some that prestige you speak of simply can't be afforded.
M
The 3-Series is so important to BMW because if it weren't for their SUV sales they would have come up short big time. The 5-Series has outsold the E-Class for the second straight month and it appears that its because of the CLS, but some of that is no doubt due to all the new competition in the segment, mainly the A6 and GS. The Infiniti M doesn't seem to have done a thing to the 5-Series as 5-Series sales have actually increased! That is amazing. What I was shocked to see at MB was the increase of the S-Class and G-Class, two of the senior most models they have at this point. Naturally the SLK and M-Class were way up over 4/04.
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/05/03/058090.html
I don't think anyone here is disputing that hybrids will be hot or that Toyota is way ahead on that front, but to me this GS450h makes the current GS430 look pointless. That GS460 had better be some kind of improvement over the GS430 otherwise Lexus will be killing off one of its own models.
Also, the Chrysler side of DCX is on a roll also, with the Chrysler division itself doing extremely well. Toyota isn't the only regular brand doing well. GM is lost, and Ford is somewhere in the middle.
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/05/03/058093.html
M
The after-sales loaners etc. are worth something...but are paid for not in the 7k upfront but with higher service prices, imho. My local Lexus dealer charges $90-95 for a simple oil change. Denny Clements made a speech awhile ago saying that Lexus dealers have the highest profitability in the US. I believe that's coming primarily from service.
Now that the S350 is available at dealers, we won't have to scrounge around for sales data showing how it is selling vs the S500. With a $21k price difference fewer people can afford the S500, so it will just have to sell fewer units than the S350, right? Who cares what the real numbers are?
You have to add the CLS sales to the E IMO in evaluating that segment, But the dropoff in BMW car sales has to have them a bit perturbed in Germany. BMW is also doing some real attractive lease programs right now on the 5. They seem to have real low lease prices every year in this April-May time frame.
Lastly - is it just me or are others noticing the slugfest in advertising on 24 between Lexus, MB and BMW. I'm still bothered by the terrorists driving LS430 and GS cars.Ford and Lexus seem to be the cars on this years show run.
The new M-class, which I percieve as having gotten favorable reviews in the autorags, in April still sold 58% less units than the segment-leading RX330 (and to be conservative here I have excluded the RX400h from the comparison).
The new GS, on the other hand, in April trailed the segment-leading 5-series by a lesser amount, 30%.
Maybe another sign that MB's quality issues are having some impact...
Not that I want to re-ignite this ever revolving arguement, but just curious - what does an RX330 with the basics - leather, roof, navigation, 6-disc - price out at? An M-class with that gear on it would be $46k-ish.
I have sun roof, heated seats, CD changer, GPS, and 4 Wheel Drive.
With both cars priced about he same would that shoot a hole in Mercs...It's the price theory...if the RX 330 outsells the M class.
Also, in the SUV market, there are more middle income, discount motivated buyers, and if what you say is true, and Lexus carries a 12-15% markup, which I would find easy to believe since it shares platforms with the camry, rav-4, highlander, and ES, then they have more room to negotiate. And I can promise you, even if it's not the way you think, lots of people in this tier of the market will buy the choice B car, if they're getting the bigger discount on that car. Just today I lost a deal on an ML500, to a cadillac SLR, which in mine and his opinion is an inferior vehicle which will also depreciate much quicker.
That's exactly how I feel about MB. Management promises notwithstanding, I wouldn't buy one in year one due to quality concerns.
On another note, I'm surprised that there isn't much discussion here of the Bentley Continental and that there is absolutely no mention of the Arnage. For those that don't want to spend more than 200K on a new Arnage, a MY2000 Arnage is in the same price range as a new S Class and probably has more reliabilty, more distinction and perhaps a lower cost per mile (because the big hit has already been taken). The three to five year old Bentleys that I have seen have very low (e.g., 10,000) miles on them and would be a great daily driver for the person that spends S Class money.
Hype or fact is always in the eye of the beholder...
..... but to me this GS450h makes the current GS430 look pointless. That GS460 had better be some kind of improvement over the GS430 otherwise Lexus will be killing off one of its own models.
Toyota plans to make hybrids as common as, say, an option you choose at the dealership, like a CD changer, moonroof, Nav, etc... So get used to hybrids as commodities in the US market. Now that Toyota plans to build a hybrid Camry in their Kentucky plant, look out ! Cheaper to build (local) and cheaper to purchase, they will become the de facto default choice of buyers, given the economics of benefit-to-cost considerations.
OTOH, Lexus plans to make the hybrid versions of their products the *premium* model. So consider a GS460 with 350/350 HP/TQ, and priced at, say $55K base. The GS450h, churning out about 360-375HP/400 Ibft of torque will be priced $5-10K higher (base). The catch: Higher mileage, less pollution, cleaner environment for everyone (especially our kids and seniors), and of course MUCH FASTER than a comparable naturally-aspirated V8 GS460.
I'm not going to take my LS to ZipLube even if it is less expensive. When I purchased the LS, I made a decision to use the Lexus Service at least until the warranty had expired. I knew the cost would be more than the GMC Yukon that I was driving, but I considered the increased cost was part of the "Pursuit of Perfection".
I guess you do. The S350 is a last minue addition and isn't going to just soar past established models in the last 7-13 months of the current S-Class. Mercedes didn't even tell anyone that the S350 was coming, heck I didn't even know until I checked their website. They aren't even promoting the car, its a place holder.
"The new M-class, which I percieve as having gotten favorable reviews in the autorags, in April still sold 58% less units than the segment-leading RX330 (and to be conservative here I have excluded the RX400h from the comparison)."
So what? Talk about hype. The ML just came out during the month of April, like towards the middle. They wouldn't have had that many built to outsell the segment leader in the introductory month.
M
Why would they be worried about a dropoff in sales when their main car, the 3-Series is doing a model change over? This is what happens all the time. Nothing for anyone to worry about. The 5-Series was way up and come this month the newly facelifted 7-Series goes on sale. Not that this applies to you in particuar, but this board never seems to be able apply basic logic to sales numbers. If they drop its a crisis and if they don't shoot through the roof there is a problem, yet all of this only applies to BMW, MB and Audi, not any of Lexus' previous duds. A vehicle comes out in the middle of the month and yet its supposed to overtake or catch the existing sales leader, yet because it doesn't there is an issue. Totally Ridiculous.
M
So in other words the GS450h makes the GS460 pointless then. Good luck on the GS450h producing those kind of hp numbers. When a company says "over 300" they usually mean like 320 or so. The hp/torque numbers your guesstimating aren't going to make the GS450h that much fast than the regular GS460. If the GS450h is only 5-10K more why would I want a GS460? The rest reads like like Lexus Service Announcement.
M
http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cfm/newsid/2050502.003
That article is really starting to get me excited about the upcoming E320 CDI. Sounds like MB has a real winner on their hands. Unfortunately I can't get it here in MA because of the emissions laws. I wonder if it is possible to sneak a used one in somehow. I can't imagine MB discounting this car too much because of the limited numbers. What is the typical discount on a MB car? (I know this varies from model to model) When buying a Lexus I wouldn't even consider it unless I'm getting 10% off. When I was shopping for the S430 the guy was only giving me about 5-6% off on a new one, and even less on a used one.
The 5-10K Premium on a GS hybrid is crazy...I'd pay 3K maybe for the hybrid drivetrain..Maybe that is where the market exists for a gasoline GS460. 5-10K is a pretty significant amount especially in that price range. If they can manage to sell the hybrids at a 5-10K premium, then Toyota must be laughing all the way to the bank.
SV
That's odd, on another Edmunds board someone posted:
Yeah I'm reading in other MB forums that the new ML is due like on March 19th or so?
merc1, "2006 Mercedes-Benz M-Class" #18, 13 Mar 2005 6:33 pm
Guess who posted it? Some fellow named merc1. Guess that Germans-are-supermen attitude caused a little mixup on the dates?
If you want to let the M-class season a little before seeing if it has re-captured segment leadership, fine by me. We'll check again down the road.
Hard to say what the discount is on a Benz until you talk specific models. AMG and hard to get models are less so than final run models of course.
M
Either way it still doesn't make a bit of difference as there is no way the ML is going to catch the sales leader in 40 days or so on the market. To even suggest that there is a problem because it didn't is like I said - ridiculous. The ML will probably never sell in the volumes of the RX anyway, I really don't expect it too. Doesn't mean its a failure either.
M
?
A year ago, the GS trailed the then-leading E by 90% in units. Now it trails the leading 5-series by a more respectable 30%.
A year ago, the ML trailed the RX by 75%. Now it trails by 58% (not counting the RX400h).
Seems to me that the new GS (which also became available in March) is being better received than the new ML. If I were MB I'd be worried and thinking that maybe the reliability concerns are having an impact on the buying public.
It's just another pointless DaimlerChrysler marketting exercise in absurdity, just like winching a Jeep up the side of a building and call it "off-road."
If the GS were given out FREE, you wouldn't take one, so .....
The rest reads like like Lexus Service Announcement.
Sometimes I wonder why we even bother to debate anything if you take a condescending attitude to anything you disagree with. Feel free to disagree, but be respectful. Is that too much to ask ?
When you were busy analyzing these numbers did you take into account that GS was as dead as dead can be this time last year, only selling 522 units compared to the ML's 2028. Seems to me that sales had no where to go but way up since nobody was buying the old GS in April of 2004. The GS had a lot more ground to cover than the ML did seeing as how the ML was selling a more even rate. It hadn't yet dropped off the market like the GS did.
BTW, who said that reliabilty concerns don't have an impact on the public? Of course they do, you can see that on other boards here on Edmunds where prospective MB buyers mention that as a concern. So your point is again what?
What I took issue is all this nonsense about people caring about what a CEO says or what a company's profits were last quarter when the go to buy, not reliability "concerns".
M
If the GS were given out FREE, you wouldn't take one, so .....
Correct! I'd flatbed it to the nearest Mercedes, BMW, Audi or Infiniti dealer.
M
There is a nissan dealer nextdoors to us, and the other day I held up a photo of the new GS next to the maximas there on their lot...I still maintain that from a side profile especially, they look a lot alike.
Any of those dealers you mentioned would be thrilled to take that GS off your hands...The sales numbers are indicating they are very popular and probably in short supply...That lucky Mercedes dealer that gets it will not have any trouble moving that GS at a nice profit.