High End Luxury Cars

syswei · May 2005

BARCELONA (Reuters) - DaimlerChrysler is debating whether to abandon its goal to place its Mercedes-Benz brand first in the prestigious J.D. Power and Associates car quality survey, Mercedes chief Eckhard Cordes said on Friday.

"We are carefully analysing whether this is a reasonable goal or not, and then we will answer the question once we have finished our analysis," he told reporters on the sidelines of an industry conference here.

ljflx · May 2005

Therein lies your incredible bias and lack of objectivity which is also why many of us Lexus buyers dismiss your Lexus rant so quickly. You wouldn't even test and enjoy a truly great car which seems to have the best sports/luxury balance in the class. That's a real shame.

I test drove the GS430 yesterday. It is absolutely spectacular and I'm trying to figure out a reason to lease one. Lexus hit it perfect as far as I'm concerned. Driving the car made me realize how easily Lexus could have pushed it further (quite easily) on the sport handling side. But then they would have lost some of that great luxury ride feel. As it is they gave a great and perfect balance to both sides of the fence for a car in this class.

ljflx · May 2005

Interesting - they are probably not seeing the responses they hoped in their own customer survey responses. Seems to imply the chance of victory is a hopeless one. But we all knew that already anyway.

designman · May 2005

Looks like well have another exciting singles match going on shortly. To both of you please make it interesting!

;-)

stroudman · May 2005

We did?

princeabubu · May 2005

I think that first place is an unreasoable goal for Mercedes. I think that JD Power prefers cars that are made to suit Americans tastes. Some of the things that they grade on are as minimal as cup holders... I think that it is also important for Mercedes to work on a better relationship with it's suppliers. They have a huge problem witht that as well...

PS, I have seen a few new GS300, and 430s around town. It looks stunning in person. Bravo to Lexus for creating a good looking car.

anthonyp · May 2005

I thought about the Bentley, didn`t get one because the car would get the usual dings on the highway and that would be too painful....In rethinking the higher priced cars, in my opinion our driving experience has changed mightily in the past thirty years...Imagine a nice Bentley etc. with the picnic table and chairs in the trunk, the rural roads, and trips that took eight hours to go two hundred fifty miles, and the small towns we drove through in those days....I remember a picnic with hard boiled eggs, slaw, fried chicken and salty ham sandwithces... Now it is three and a half hours to go the same distance, and it is on a ribbon of concrete at high speeds. The dignity is gone, along with the pleasure of a beautifully crafted auto that was designed for an era that is also gone...The cars that have taken the place of RR, Bentley etc are designed for this era, and serve us well....For those that are young and want to make a statement, go for it, as for me I lost my youth earning a living. Tony

stroudman · May 2005

Good post, Tony. I have to wonder, at 35, what things as far as memories or experiences, will I treasure or look back on when I'm older. I guess each generation has the moments they hold dear, and the contexts they remember them in. We move too fast nowadays to pay attention to things like the tastes of simple food on a picnic, too caught up in getting there to appreciate the journey. These days it's more about how much a car can allow you to do other things while you're driving than about the special experiences a car can take you to.

00boxsters · May 2005

Tony,

Short of running a marathon or climbing Mt. Everest, what is it that you cannot do now that you would have rather done during your youth? Now you can afford to do it (and likely more) because of your years of dedicated hard work and perhaps appreciate it better due to your past experiences.

As for new lux cars, I think I would miss the Nav systems, safety equipment and efficient performance if I could turn back time. I would not miss the 300 page owners manuals. Funny, years ago I used to park in a spot outside a restaurant so that I might 'watch' my new car as I ate so that it would not get a scratch. As though watching would protect it. After the first month, it just no longer matters as much to me.

sv7887 · May 2005

Anthony,
What an excellent post, a nice change from the norm around here. I have to agree. I can't remember the last time I took a leisure drive anywhere. When I started buying these expensive cars in the early 90's, I thought I'd be taking longer drives and more road trips..I justified buying my '02 LS b/c it had a Navigation System, thinking once again I'd be going on road trips..Instead I put 25K on it in 3.5 yrs driving it to work and back everyday.

As I reflect on your point, I ask, What exactly is the point of a Luxury car these days? I take my LS400/430 to work and back..I simply don't have much time to go for a leisurely drive..Surely I don't need a luxury car for the commute. I think our children's generation may have it right though. My son frequently takes the LS400 on short road trips to New Hampshire, just for the ride. I'd say he gets more use out of it then I do.

Now I wonder, why did I buy it? The original LS that I still have was just a dream car for me...I think I've bought the newer ones just for the sake of keeping a new Lexus around, as I've gotten used to them..There is little excitement now when I drive a new one off the lot. It doesn't compare at all when I drove the 92 LS home back in March of 92. Maybe the "wow" factor is gone from Lexus as I've owned so many. Is this true for anyone else, or is it just me?

SV

hpowders · May 2005

Sounds to me like you are suffering from a bad case of human nature. The insatiability factor. The thrill is in the pursuit. Once you have it, you take it for granted. That old hackneyed phrase is so true. You just can't buy happiness. My son-in-law lives in a 4 million dollar house and has 5 cars, a huge swimming pool, etc; Yet every time I visit, he hardly ever smiles. His wife is the same way and his kids are a mess.
Ya gotta take time to smell the roses.

michael_mattox · May 2005

HPPOWERS:

I love driving my LS...I look for reasons to go on small trips...Mostly the 200 mile round trip to visit friends in Seattle...or drive somewhere with my son to play golf at a new course.

I think we sometimes forget that money is a means to an end, not the end. Yes it is a way to keep score ( I suspect most of us are very competitive)...I was able to retire earily (not nearly as well off as I might have been)...When I remembered why I was working Orginally because I loved what I did (always loved what I did)... but..I had enough to be comfortable and retire and realized it would be nice to have 20-years or so just doing what I wanted, when I wanted, Without the pressure of business. From the day I retired I have never been bored or lacked for something to do...still have a lot left to do that I am trying to find time for.

I guess the Bottom Line of what I am trying to say...When you have enough to be secure and have the things you want and need....YOU HAVE ENOUGH...Enjoy what you have ...Live life your way, not for the company....LIFE IS VERY SHORT.

merc1 · May 2005

I test drove the GS430 yesterday. It is absolutely spectacular and I'm trying to figure out a reason to lease one. Lexus hit it perfect as far as I'm concerned. Driving the car made me realize how easily Lexus could have pushed it further (quite easily) on the sport handling side. But then they would have lost some of that great luxury ride feel. As it is they gave a great and perfect balance to both sides of the fence for a car in this class.

Sorry but after reading that I would say the same bias applies to you, or either you don't understand what a proper sports sedan is supposed to be. The GS was supposed to be a 5-Series fighter and it is not, but of course you find it to be perfect. I'm biased for not liking a GS, yet I'm able to admit and post what I honestly think of every Mercedes, whether it is favorable or not. You on the other hand think that every Lexus product is perfect and that the isolated/sound system/nav combo can't be had anywhere else. This to me is a "shame" imo.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I find the Lexus GX470 and SC430 to be interesting vehicles and if I were a buyer in those markets I'd drove those Lexi, but the GS imo is about the ugliest car in the segment and on other things that appeal to me (not you) the GS is behind the M45, A6, E, and 5-Series. Saying you drove it and you realized how much more "easily Lexus could have pushed it further (quite easily) on the sport handling side" to me shows more bias than anything I've said. You've basically invented an excuse for the car not being sporty enough to challenge the rival Lexus fingered. If I had said something like that about a Mercedes the board would be up in arms about me making excuses for the MB not achieving its goal. How much they could have made it sportier? That sir is an incredible bias. Can't even admit that they failed as a "sports sedan" only to get beat by a fellow Asian brand in that regard.

BTW, I'll be in line to drive the new IS250 like everyone else. Very excited and interested in such a car, but obviously it doesn't apply to this set.

I know you don't care about sport, but that is what Lexus stated for this model. Read the other boards where people don't apply LS430 type thinking to the GS and you'll see they prefer the M45 and the Lexus doesn't cut it. Sure it has all the regular Lexus attributes and that is fine for many (obviously), but as a true sports sedan it doesn't cut it.

Don't cry "your not objective" because I don't think every Lexus is perfect like you do. I've been more than objective here, well most of the time when the bs isn't being layered on too thickly and I think you know this.

M

hpowders · May 2005

I drove the GS430 when it first came out and I too was impressed. The steering was well-weighted and it handled quite well.
I was not impressed by the small sunroof and narrow trunk opening, however.
I will drive one again soon. I have 'til mid-July to make up my mind.
As the linesman in this singles match, ljflx said that the GS430 strikes a perfect balance between performance and luxury. He did not say it was perfect regarding sporty handling. He mentioned that Lexus probably could have done more here but at the expense of the luxury component. 15 love.
On the other side of the court, merc1 is correct. Before the 2006 GS came out, I distinctly remember it being touted by Lexus as a 5 series killer. And that it is not.
Score is 15 all.

vwguild · May 2005

It sounds to me that WWII was not won when you entered this world...me too...

I remember the fantastic wicker "picnic baskets" from Abercrombie & Fitch on Madison Ave., when that was the only store. This is why the PHAETON brings a smile everytime I turn the key. I guess it is the simple elegance and refinement that I respond to the most...A lot of class; without all the flash.

And, Sinatra, Ella, and Brubeck have never sounded better...That I will concede to our currently available technology.

oac · May 2005

The GS was supposed to be a 5-Series fighter and it is not, but of course you find it to be perfect....

Sayz who ?

BTW, what does it mean to be a 5- fighter ?
Does the car have to be the most well balanced car out there ?
Does it have to be the most luxurious car out there ?
Does it have to be the best handling car out there ?
Does it have to be the fastest car out there ?
By what criteria should the GS compete against the 5 series ? Methinks the utlimate competition is in the bottomline, afterall BOTH companies are in the business to make money not just to compete against each other.

...but the GS imo is about the ugliest car in the segment ...

IYO, that is...

Read the other boards where people don't apply LS430 type thinking to the GS and you'll see they prefer the M45 and the Lexus doesn't cut it...

And these boards are an indication of success of a car in the market ??? If that were the case, Ford and GM should be running away and hiding from the rest of the auto manufacturers in the sheer size of the posts about GM and Ford. That many on Edmund's prefer the M45 to the GS430 in terms of sporty handling is NOT an indication that the M is a better car than the GS. IMO, the M45 is better in some areas and short in other areas against the new GS. Same can be said in reverse. What matters is what MOST of the buying public prefer, and that, Merc1, will be determined by the sales volume. Let's wait and see the success factor of both cars in the highly competitive mid-size luxury-sport market before we declare which car is the best.

hpowders · May 2005

The big 3 in the luxury performance category are the GS 430, M45 and 545.
Already it appears that the honeymoon is over on the M35/M45 board. Complaints about various strange noises that seemingly can't be fixed by mere mortal men. Having to send engineers from Japan to investigate. A rear tire blowout after only 2 weeks. Noxious odors. And so it goes.
Recently, I spoke to a relative who has a 2004 5 series. I apparantly hit a nerve when I asked her how the car was behaving. She told me, "I am going back to Acura." as she proceeded to relate one horror story after another concerning her vehicle. Pretty much bears out the CR black circle for reliability.
So basically we aren't given all that much choice. The GS430 may not handle as well as the 545, nor growl like the M45 but it should handle well enough and have sufficient power to pass the others that may be stuck on the side of the road.

ljflx · May 2005

BMW makes their car as a sports sedan. Others, including MB look at is as a car for those who can't reach the next segment up. It has 4 doors and a 190" length which to me makes it a family sedan first and a sports sedan second. If Lexus went all the way on sport handling for the car I wouldn't like it. I prefer luxury first, sport second so it's a perfect car in my thinking. I'm not generalizing for mankind - just for myself. As it is - it has enough sport for 90+% of drivers and still delivers supreme luxury. The car also has phenomenal LS-like build quality. Previous GS cars didn't. That makes it a homerun to me.

hpowders - thanks for clarifying.

ljflx · May 2005

As a person who grew up in Brooklyn - I know what you mean about the old relaxing drives to the country. But these days many of us who own these cars live in the areas we used to drive to. Recently I did a reverse "old days" trip to my old "block" in Brooklyn. It was a great trip.

I enjoy every moment behind the wheel of my car - save the bad rush hour moments. But at those moments I tune out the traffic reports and blast the ML stereo and I'm back in bliss.

oac · May 2005

Excellent points.

Even in the comparos, the 335HP M45 runs to 60 from a dead start in 5.6s. The GS430 with 300HP runs a 0.1s behind. Tell me if you can differentiate b/w the two... In addition, the GS is a far more refined and luxurious car than the M. Sure the M outandles the GS a tad, but the GS looks a world better than the M. There !

Where the GS suffers, imo, is back seat room, and a narrow entry trunk. Otherwise, it is an excellent package.

hpowders · May 2005

I drove the M35 (so called) "luxury" and M45 sport and found the suspensions on both to be quite punishing. I could not get used to the busy display in front of me and I hated the rosewood-looked like thin cardboard. The engine drone would prove quite tiring once the novelty wore off. And now all those complaints on the M board. I don't think so! Also, the M looks too much like an Altima but I actually prefer the look of the Altima! As a matter of fact I prefer Nissan designs to every corresponding Infiniti! The Murano looks much better to me than the FX.
I'll be in Bermuda for a few days "smelling the roses" but when I get back I have an appointment to drive the new 330i and after that I will call Lexus for another drive of the GS 430.
You know, my instincts tell me one could probably make a great deal on an LS 430 this summer.
Although, I am used to driver's cars having BMW 3 series since 1993.
In mid-July, I will see what the leases look like. Perhaps Lexus will come down quite a bit from MSRP on the GS 430 at that time. I wouldn't want to pay more than $750 per month with tax included.
And before I forget, I do like how the new GS looks.

merc1 · May 2005

Hey you can try as you might, but you can't run around the fact that Lexus fingered BMW as the target, and that means a sports sedan. All the profit and sales talk won't erase that Lexus said that the 5-Series (the standard or former standard as a "sports sedan" in the class) was their competition and that on that front it doesn't cut it. Period. Who says? The press has every since it came to market. You'll notice that in tests where sport wasn't the main criteria, the GS did well, like in the Automobile and Edmunds test, but in test where Sport was more of a factor, like in the Road and Track and C&D reviews it got put behind the real sports sedans in the segment the M45 and 545i (except C&D with tested a puny 530i like boneheads). I'm sorry if you're not able to understand that a nice nav systems/stereo and isolation aren't what make a sports sedan.

"Methinks the utlimate competition is in the bottomline, afterall BOTH companies are in the business to make money not just to compete against each other."

That reads like a grand excuse for them not making a sports sedan to challenge the rival they themselves mentioned - BMW. Every car company is out to make money and pointing this out here means what? Nothing out of the ordinary.

That many on Edmund's prefer the M45 to the GS430 in terms of sporty handling is NOT an indication that the M is a better car than the GS. IMO, the M45 is better in some areas and short in other areas against the new GS. Same can be said in reverse. What matters is what MOST of the buying public prefer, and that, Merc1, will be determined by the sales volume. Let's wait and see the success factor of both cars in the highly competitive mid-size luxury-sport market before we declare which car is the best.

You seem to misunderstand me here. I didn't say that the M45 was just an outright better car than the GS. I said that the M is a better sports sedan. There is a difference, that is why I said you can't apply that LS400 logic to the meduim segment and call the GS some type of standard because it isn't. So far that would appear to be the M45 as a sports sedan. Weren't you the one that drove the GS and declared that they missed the mark as a sports sedan or am I making that up? You asked the others to explain to you on the IS board what a sports sedan is, yet you seem to have forgotten what all of us said already. As a sports sedan the GS doesn't cut it against the class leaders in the respect. You ask: "BTW, what does it mean to be a 5- fighter ?" Answer: Infiniti M45.

Since you're bent on making excuses for the GS not being a sports sedan like Lexus said they wanted it to be, you'll revert back to "its selling" and "companies are out to make money". Come on guy time to really get a new line here.

If by chance the IS250/300 don't stack up to the class leaders as a sports sedan, currently the 3-Series and G35, will you say the same thing about the IS too? I mean Lexus is saying the same thing about the IS as they said about the GS: Target = BMW. Yet it means nothing to you as long as the car sells and Lexus makes money. Forget the design brief and/or competition. Amazing denial.

Didn't your guy Clements say that they're staggering engine introductions to be like BMW? So the GS can be in the press throughout the production cycle? Their target in the two lower segments is BMW, not Mercedes.

No one said the car is a failure or anything close to it. It just isn't the sports sedan Lexus promised. Big difference. I mean seriously you don't see the difference here. Read the Automobile compar in which the A6, GS and E placed in that order because they weren't looking for sport as much. Ditto for Edmunds. Then look at C&D and Road and Track. Especially Road and Track. They state that after a while they knew the real sports sedan battle was going to be between the 545i and the M45, not the GS430.

M

merc1 · May 2005

You seem to have missed the point by a country mile here. A sedan's length doesn't deterimine how sporty or what the design brief is. The 5 is the same length and the M is longer and they both more sporting DNA so I don't understand what length has to do with anything here? Are you saying that Lexus isn't capable of making a car of this size sporty enough to match the class leaders in that area? The M45 in particular is both longer and heavier than the GS430 it utterly destroys it as a sports sedan so I guess your theory about length making the GS430 a "family sedan" is correct, but all yours. There certainly is no industry standard anything like that. To make it worse the M45 is even roomier than the GS430 too. I'd say that you're doing more than generalizing though, there is no way to know what 90 percent of the drivers in this segment want.

I must say that was very clever of you to throw MB in there though.

M

michael_mattox · May 2005

One thing that is going unsaid on this board, (maybe because I am the only one who thinks it) or because I have an LS and really like the Lexus product but I have always loved the look of the Mercedes S better then the LS....NOW

Having seen the new GS...The Mercedes look seems dated to me...Maybe I have seen it and liked it for so many years now that I am ready to move on to something different.

Anyone else agree or is it just me....we all do have different tastes

hpowders · May 2005

Upon biking on my regular route through suburban Tampa streets, I always pass a beautiful 2005 silver S class Mercedes parked in a driveway. No doubt about it. One beautiful car. So graceful. A work of art. It's always in the same place. Could the owner be showing off his trophy car?
Also on my bike route, there are several 2004-2005 LS 430's and I don't care what anyone says-that is one good looking car. I get to pass one in silver and one in white. Both beautiful. My heart races like it used to do when I was a kid on a swing.
But that S class. Wow!

designman · May 2005

Yo... Waiter!! I'll have the Strawberries Sauvignon!!

carnaught · May 2005

I can understand that the "M" Infiniti just doesn't appeal to you as simply no one car appeals to everyone. You go on by saying "all those complaints on the M board". Hmmm, there may be one or two complaints from one or a couple of owners, but this is hardly befitting the word "all". Most owners that I am aware of ARE still on their "honeymoon" with their M's, so if you want to continue to put your spin on the car because you don't like it, realize that by saying it doesn't make it so. The M is not for you so simply don't buy it.

With my personal ownership experience now seven weeks including all its gadgets (tech.and journey packages), I can honestly say that the car has been flawless with no squeaks, rattles, malfunctions or issues of any kind. I neither find the ride punishing nor the car loud or harsh in any way, only sporty (strictly MY opinion though).

hpowders · May 2005

Stick around. This may just develop into a doubles match.
What a revoltin' development this is!

hpowders · May 2005

Well thank you very much for telling me I have the priviledge of not buying the M if I don't like it.
I will take advantage of your generous offer. I won't buy it.
Where's the spin? I listed concrete examples from the M35/45 board of M owners who are having problems with their new M's. Strange odors and mysterious noises requiring engineers from Japan to come to the US. because the crack Infiniti service technicians can't figure out what's wrong.
A blowout after driving for only 2 weeks.
Hey, you can't make this stuff go away. It's right there on the M board unless someone has deleted these experiences.
See M35/M45 post #2564. You're a riot Infiniti! A regular riot!

oac · May 2005

Here is the main point you fail to understand:

If Lexus promises a BMW fighter, but delivers an E-class competitor, as long as the product delivered makes them money (profitable), that's all that counts. I would think that is plainly obvious !

Let me draw you a picture here. Everyone knows about Viagra, right ? When VIAGRA came out a few years ago, did Pfizer bother to tell the public that the drug was found by serendipity ? A team of scientists testing a clinical candidate with patients found that the patients were experiencing some *secondary* effect that were *beneficial*. Lo and behold... a class of PDE-V drugs was born with Viagra. And BILLIONS of dollars later, copy cats now flood the market trying to make money in this therapeutic area.

I'll say it again: The bottomline is that the product makes money for the manufacturer, whether/or not it meets the mark with some auto rags or self-appointed enthusiasts. If the GS outsells and out-profits the M, think Lexus will change the game plan ? Nope. No corporate entity will willy-nilly go away from their strength just to satisfy a miniscule amount of the public. Lexus' bread-and-butter is LUXURY, and as long as that is not compromised, they'll continue to beat the crap out of the luxury sedan/truck competition.

esf · May 2005

Everyone still compares cars with BMWs- I'm with you, but from a different perspective. BMWs are not benchmarks any more, exceptions to the new 3. The 3 is still the best in class. But, the 5 lags in several areas: style (of course), power (Will be addressed with the 535/550), luxury, and warmth (the interior is business-like and cold).

I believe that the Audi A6 is the benchmark, with the GS nipping its heels, the M-Series Infiniti closing in, and the Mercedes E-Class not far behind. The BMW does not even make the list, and this is for one reason: The 5 sells itself on performance. If you want a luxury sedan, it's supposed to sell on style, luxury, and performance, not just performance.

It's just not a luxury sedan without the luxury. Slapping a polished slab of wood on the dash doesn't help.

oac · May 2005

With so much talk about the sportiness or lack thereof of the Lexus GS vs its Infiniti competitor, well what are they doing in the market ???

April 2005 sales:

GS300/430 = ~3000 units sold
M35/45 = ~2200 units sold
5-series = ~4500 units sold

So what was that about the GS not been sporty enough ? It is beating the M where it counts, and is getting close to the 5 (with a zillion variants). Oh, the LS sales wasn't bad either against the S and the 7-series. I threw in the Q45 sales just to show that lower-priced or *value-priced* product in this space does not necessarily translate to success, as MB fans often state about the LS... And of course, I expect Merc1 to dismiss all of this as hocus pocus !

LS430 = 2,398 units sold
S-class = 1,451 units sold
7-series = 1,182 units sold
Q45 = 81 units sold

syswei · May 2005

What is it that the GS has failed at? Maybe they failed to make a car you would want, but that's about it as far as being a "failure". Lexus aspires for the brand to be perceived as more sporty like BMW, but when did anyone at the company ever promise to make a GS that would "out-sport" the 5? Please show us a quote stating such a goal, because the only GS goal I have seen in print was this:

"Traditionally, Mercedes and BMW have been the class leaders in sales, consistently maintaining an 18-percent-or-better share of market. Our goal, with the GS is to join the leaders near the front of the pack with an annual share-of-segment of more than 14 percent, while achieving an annual sales rate of about 33,000 units. That's a bold statement and a bold move from our 2004 sales rate of 8,200 units and five-percent share of segment." - Mark Templin, Lexus Vice President, Marketing - March 24, 2005 - New York Auto Show

From the April numbers they are making decent progress. The GS as I stated previously trailed the segment-leading 5 by 30% in April. The ML trailed the RX (not counting hybrid versions) by 58%, which you said "Doesn't mean its a failure"...yet the GS to you is a failure??? And just a few posts ago you called yourself unbiased and objective?

docnukem · May 2005

I guess it all depends on what Lexus meant when they said "5 fighter". If they meant they wanted to challenge the 5 in terms of sport alone, some people might consider it a failure. If they meant that they wanted to steal sales from the 5, then the verdict is not in, yet, but it looks promising. I wonder, though, if Lexus won't end up cannibalizing some of its own sales of the LS and ES.

Personally, I like the GS. It looks much better in real life than in pictures. I happen to think the Infiniti M looks better, though, and that is MHO. While others may disagree, the 5 looks fabulous and still turns my head (I like the controversial look of the 7, too).

The really interesting thing will be to see year-over-year sales one year from now. While the Infiniti can't be compared as it is a completely new vehicle (although as a percentage increase in sales, this would make it the hands-down winner).

mariner7 · May 2005

"Lexus won't end up cannibalizing some of its own sales of the LS and ES."

I'd argue that's happening. If you look at sales figures for March and April, GS increases greatly, but LS, ES and IS all had double digit decreases for both months. If you look at overall Lexus sedan sales, they stay pretty much the same as 2004, in spite of GS. It seems like you have a set of owners who have to have a Lexus, and they decide to buy the shiniest, brightest model.

The picture is different at Infiniti. M is selling way over projections, 40% is what I read. And for both months, G sedan had record sales.

It's a long battle between these two though, the first two months of six, seven years.

greenbelt · May 2005

Maybe this has already been discussed on this board. A friend told me to look at this link in automobile magazine. Does anyone know who Bose is working with besides Lexus? It's interesting to see electronics move further and further into the infrastructure of automobiles.

http://www.automobilemag.com/news/0410_bose/

Seems like to me that this kind of suspension could go a long way towards eliminating the difference between 'sport sedans' and 'luxury sedans', particularly if one had some kind of control over the settings.

brightness04 · May 2005

> except C&D with tested a puny 530i like boneheads

The blame lies with BMW not C&D. 525 and 530 far outnumber 545 on the road. For the amount of money involved, 530 not 545 was the only thing BMW was willing to sell you. C&D explained as much. It's either boneheaded of BMW to charge too much for 545i, or boneheaded of the reader who glosses over the explanation.

> I'm sorry if you're not able to understand that a nice nav systems/stereo and
> isolation aren't what make a sports sedan.

These are not sports sedans, I'm sorry if you are not able to understand that. These are sporty luxury sedans. There are sedans that are far more sporty and cost far less than the 5 series (WRX-STi and Lance Evo come to mind), the likes of which BMW 5 series can not begin to compete unless luxury is a priority consideration. Different people have different takes on their preference on a sporty luxury sedan. By the simple ratio of 525/530 : 545 sold, it should be obvious that most BMW 5 series buyers are more interested in luxury than sportiness.

kdshapiro · May 2005

I agree about the sport on the WRX and EVO. If you are comparing on sport only, then the WRX wins, but as soon as you want luxury, these cars fail miserable compared to any luxo or even entry level luxo car.

BMW is still the benchmark, when respect to the drive. I can't remember the last time I heard some manufacturer saying I want my car to drive better than a "GS".
After driving a BMW, I realize how much I enjoy their interiors compared to the other manufacturers. They have it nailed.

Selling more does not make one better, it just gives one more sales. MacDonalds sells billions and billions, yet it is better than Outback at burgers?

pat · May 2005

we're talking about High End Luxury Marques here, so strictly sport sedans aren't relevant in this particular discussion.

brightness04 · May 2005

> BMW is still the benchmark, when respect to the drive. I can't remember the last > time I heard some manufacturer saying I want my car to drive better than
> a "GS".

> Selling more does not make one better, it just gives one more sales.
> MacDonalds sells billions and billions, yet it is better than Outback at burgers?

Hmm . . . the last time I checked, BMW still outsells Lexus in this sporty luxury segment. The reason why BMW has been considered a benchmark, since circa early-1990's, is its volume and ability to maintain profit margin (ie. maintaining Porsche/Ferrari like image, yet moving cars like Chevy at the same time; doing better financially than all three). Nobody was interested in benchmarking against BMW when it was just a "poor man's Mercedes" back in the 70's and early 80's even though the 2002 was quite a fun car, nobody was interested in emulating.

> After driving a BMW, I realize how much I enjoy their interiors compared to the
> other manufacturers. They have it nailed.

But now they are flattening the cockpit that has been such a central piece of BMW interior for three decades!

syswei · May 2005

Greenbelt, that article is absolutely fascinating, thanks! The video was quite convincing. As for your question as to who he'll be working with, toward the end he is quoted as saying "Within the next six to ten months, I'll be in a position to select a manufacturer, only one, to team with. We have to focus on its perfection." IMHO, better than 50% chance that one company will be Lexus.

ljflx · May 2005

LS and GS are entirely different cars aimed at different market segments. If the GS cannibalizes the ES I doubt anyone at Lexus would mind. But they too are entirely different cars/markets and I doubt there is any cannibalization going on. You had a ton of pent-up demand for the GS and the LS is coming off some real high sale months a year ago when it had its refreshing. It's on its normal track to sell 30K cars.

oac · May 2005

Selling more does not make one better, it just gives one more sales. MacDonalds sells billions and billions, yet it is better than Outback at burgers?

Typical excuse.... Remind me once again why these companies are in the business of making these cars ? I guess selling zillions of MBs and BMWs all over the world has not helped their prestige or financial status either, right ? Oh I forget, the real McD's have to be MBs and BMWs since they sell far more luxury cars/trucks than Lexus, so ...

topspin628 · May 2005

I was reading where the new 360 hp BMW 750 i can run 0-60 mph in 5.8 seconds.

Isn't the LS 430 supposed to run at 5.9 with less than 300 hp?

syswei · May 2005

I think the LS has a weight advantage.

mariner7 · May 2005

"You had a ton of pent-up demand for the GS and the LS is coming off some real high sale months a year ago"

If you're right, that doesn't bode well for GS and LS either. Because GS sales will fall sharply when the pent-up demand is satisfied. And it means LS is running out of steam just 1 year after freshening.

Take a look at these stats, it's a classic a case of cannibalization as you can get. 04/05 units, 04/04 units, % change

Lexus cars (ex SC)
ES 5597 6460 -17
LS 2398 2704 -15
GS 3198 522 513
IS 454 884 -50
Total 11647 10570 0

Infiniti cars (ex I & Q)
Gsedan 3275 2896 9
Gcoupe 2556 2532 0
M 2288 168 1211
Total 8119 5596 45

GS increases by 513%, but Lexus cars increases by 0%. If it's not cannibalization, it's quite a coincidence all other cars tank when GS comes into the scene. BTW, it's exactly the same picture in March.

Note Lexus cars outsold Infiniti about 90% in April 04. That was cut down in half to 43% last month. G has very long legs, still setting records 4 years after debut. I'd think the same of M. detnews reported new G & Altima are coming in 2006.

stroudman · May 2005

I had always understood that the 5 was a "benchmark" car for the total package of handling prowess and daily driver luxury and practicality. I've been bamboozled. It turns out it was all about the corporate numbers, all along! Drivability be damned.
My impression all along has been that the traditional European marques spent decades building good drivers cars that were safe and luxurious, and that through the years, they got better at it to where high profits and sales numbers became part of the equation as well. Then, about 15 years ago, the producers of Japanese economy cars decided they too wanted a piece of the action, and wanted to be players in a game that's been going on for a long, long time. Their offerings satisfy a great deal of the folks who can afford to play, and that's fine. I think what makes a small number of us dedicated German Car Fans is that there is a specific FEEL to their cars that is rooted in culture, tradition, and a sense of enthusiasm that can't just be cloned in every facet of a car, just to get a cut of the dollars to be had. Let Toyota sell to their hearts content, "world domination" and all.
"try it again, grasshopper, this time...with FEELING..."

ljflx · May 2005

2400 units for the LS is right on the mark for a 30K annual figure. I doubt there is any cannibalization going on. They will sell around 30K units. They have been in the 30-36k range sInce 2001. Their original annual goal for the car was 25k units. I also doubt GS sales will slacken. If anything they will accelerate. .As for the ES - the two cars are night and day in looks, performance and price and it's hard to fathom they would attract the same buyer given those character and demographic differentiations. On top of that you can hardly make a case of cannibalization from one or two months worth of sales data anyway and you need to look a lot further than sales if you want to make a case. One place to start is checking the inventory days of the LS and ES vs one year ago. If they're static than it's a production issue. I guarantee you Lexus pushed production capacity in favor of the GS to meet its anticipated demand. I'm afraid you are reading far too much into this.

maxhonda99 · May 2005

"If you're right, that doesn't bode well for GS and LS either. Because GS sales will fall sharply when the pent-up demand is satisfied. And it means LS is running out of steam just 1 year after freshening. "

The LS may be in it's 1st year after freshening, but it's midway thru it's 5th model year. And even at 2,XXX units per month, it's selling strongly.

I don't think GS sales will fall sharply next year for example or the year after. They have the GS450h coming to keep demand up. As well as a new V8 and possibly a replacement or a additional 3.5L V6, probably in 2007.

brightness04 · May 2005

It's rather ironic a "dedicated German car fan" would use BMW to examplify "traditional European marque." For what's its worth, BMW's tradition was in motorcycle and aircraft engine (the latter being the primary reason why Vicker's handed the ultimate name brand, Rolls-Royce, to the company for a pittance). If you really want to talk about tradition, one of what you derogatorily referred to as "Japanese economy car players," Toyota, was making luxury cars and SUVs (Crown and Landcruiser) in the late 1950's and early 1960's, when BMW was making Isetta (an econobox if there ever was one) and VW was making the original Bug. Oh ya, how's that for pre-dating MB ML class?

I have owned two 5 series in the past. There was nothing really luxurious about them until the E40 of the late 90's. Americans, British, French, Italian and Japanese were building luxury cars long before BMW came along. BMW's success, for a time being the most profitable car maker in the world (per unit car manufactured), stems from the consistency of its marketing message and image control. It found a market niche building ordinary cars for ordinary people who think they are different and are willing to pay the premium for the expression; and thanks to the size of German home market, it beat Saab to dominate the market niche worldwide. That's how the 5 and 3 became the benchmark: benchmark for profitability, and the envy of other car makers. Nobody was benchmarking against 944 despite its immense handling prowess and practicality; the sales numbers simply wasn't there.

> there is a specific FEEL to their cars that is rooted in culture, tradition, and a
> sense of enthusiasm

Yadda, yadda, the culture, tradition and sense of enthusiasm can be well summarized by a ride in the 1958 BMW Isetta, a single-cylinder 13 (thirteen!) horsepower car. Meanwhile Toyota was already building the Crown at the same time! It doesn't take much imagination to figure out which one was safer to ride in. As you can see, "High End Luxury Marquee" is very much a perception thing, and one that does not take long to build up, or conversely, forget. "Tradition" is nothing more than someone saying he/she is too young to remember the reverse.

High End Luxury Cars

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