High End Luxury Cars

syswei · May 2005

according to Lexus not an E-Class fighter, but a 5-Series fighter. That to me says sport is a little higher up on the priority list this time around

A fair statement, I think. And my perception is that the reviews view this edition as more sporting than the 1998 edition.

Sports sedan target missed

Not sure about that, some see it differently. Automobile magazine on the driving qualities of the 545: "The V-8 is wickedly strong, and the engine seems able to unleash a thunderclap of power at any rpm. The trouble is that it's hard to get a handle on it. The effort of the variable-ratio active steering goes light once you move the steering off center, and the chassis floats just as the front end heels over. Gillies says, "It feels as if BMW is using all this steering technology to enhance the driving experience without realizing it often isolates you from feeling what's going on with the chassis and tires.""

Same article about the GS430: "the GS proves to be the easiest car to drive quickly, especially since it weighs only 3860 pounds. Lerner says, "It takes no time at all to get up and go, and once it's going, it keeps scooting along with seemingly unlimited verve." Gillies adds, "The engine is amazing, with wonderful refinement and midrange power, while the transmission shifts so unobtrusively it could apply for a job as a butler."..."The GS should finally get Lexus the respect it deserves," says Lerner, "because it competes with the European marques in terms of emotion, élan, and prestige.""

Other reviews differ of course, but I don't think it's fair to say for the GS that the luxury sports sedan target was flat out missed, more like "not as sporting as the 5-series in the eyes of some reviewers".

syswei · May 2005

Even the C&D comparo, which you cite as being more sporting-oriented, isn't all that favorable to the 5 (leaving out the engine choice):

"the manumatic six-speed in our test car...resisted our inputs with pigheaded obduracy, particularly on the tight Streets of Willow road course, where it would simply ignore requests. Other times it would shift without being asked."

pat · May 2005

The emotorcons are still here. There seem to be some instances where some folks' preference to display them unchecks itself. Go to your preference settings (upper left) and you should be able to turn them back on. The software folks are looking at this.

stroudman · May 2005

For what it sounds like Tony's purposes would be, the Arnage would be ideal. A true touring car whose value has plateaued a bit, unlike the S which if bought new, would drop substantially. And Tony, if someone's going to drive you around, even better. You can enjoy the ride and take in the sights, without worrying that some chatty teenager on a cellphone will run into you while you're trying to smell the roses.

syswei · May 2005

You had been skeptical of payback times with the hybrids and to followup on that, I think that once the realworld pricing falls...i.e., the premium over invoice falls toward what it is with the RX330, the RX400h will be imminently reasonable as a economic proposition...and the buyer gets better performance to boot.

Edmunds did a review here
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=105527
and it says in part: "The Lexus RX 400h commands an $11,000 premium over a base RX 330 but comes with almost every possible feature. Put all of it's features on a regular RX and the leap to the hybrid is about $3,000. Add in your tax credit and the difference is just a grand....buying a hybrid or diesel SUV could be a good financial move. Based on the mileage we got [breakeven is] about six years in the RX 400h. That might sound like a long time if you're planning to lease one, but add in the $2,000 hybrid tax credit available in 2005, you'd break even after about two years."

stroudman · May 2005

As long as you can financially, and philosophically, handle the freight on a fully loaded RX, then it sounds like a great product. The only thing I can compare it to personally is my diesel product, and most, not all but most, of the folks in the market for them want as stripped-down a vehicle as they can get. I don't believe the lexus crowd is the same way, however.

syswei · May 2005

I'm curious to know what you're seeing from CDI prospects...do they tend to be cross shopping against conventional ICE cars like the E350, or is more the RX400h?

pat · May 2005

Did you get your emotorcons back? Was the problem what I posted earlier?

syswei · May 2005

I looked at my preferences and indeed the box was mysteriously unchecked. I have now checked it off and yes they seem to be back, I just haven't had a need to add an icon to a post.

pat · May 2005

Okay, just wanted to make sure that it was a known problem rather than something new. Just fyi, the box controls only whether you see them, not whether they would show up for someone else in a post of yours. So if you had typed a smiley while it was off, you would have seen just the characters but others would have seen the emotorcon. Thanks for letting me know.

stroudman · May 2005

There is only $1k premium for the cdi, so the folks looking for them don't hesitate to get one, if they can find one. Diesel drivers are a curious cult. They like the sound and purr of the engine, the smell of them, the torque. Often times they have had one or more in the past. Gearheads mostly. VW draws a little bit of everybody to their diesels, but the MB crowd usually won't look at anything else. Once the hybrid luxury sedans start to permeate the market, that might change, since they have a good stream of torque as well. We'll have to wait and see I guess, but I have a feeling when the M-class diesel hits these shores next year, there will be much to talk about with RX shoppers.

syswei · May 2005

Sounds like mostly previous diesel owners shopping the CDI, which as I've said before is kind of sad...MB and others deserve more press for modern diesel technology.

There was an article I referred to a few weeks ago saying that the price premium for diesel would have to increase (can't remember if 2006 or 2007) because of clean air legislation requiring some more gear added to the car.

designman · May 2005

"I just haven't had a need to add an icon to a post."

After all that you can't throw the world a smile?!

syswei · May 2005

I only need the icons when poking fun at Lexus!

blckislandguy · May 2005

Don't want to re-ignite the MB vs. Lexus flames, but the Wall St Journal and New York Times (among others, I'm sure) have been running full page ads for the new E Class. The key theme, explicitly stated, is that your neighbors will turn "green with envy" and you'll get lots of envious glances as you drive your new E Class with the appearance package which includes "sculpted skirts."

Now the above ad may seem innocuous, but think about it. These marketing types have been taught since David Oglivy's time to always push your unique selling proposition. Looks like if you work for MB, you think that the main thing you should push is status. Not German engineering, reliablity, longevity, great cornering ability, low 0-60 times, four valves per cylinder, roller cams, stellite hardened valves with random rotators, dry sump oil systems, new multimetal gasket technology that renders leaks obsolete, superpremium tires, suspensions that are self adjusting to road conditions, seating comfortable enough to do Boston to Buffalo in a long day, foul weather performance, low cabin noise at 70 MPH, superior audio, etc. Just that you will drive the neighbors wild with envy.

Wow. Reminds of me of Rolex. Its sold as eye candy and jewelry. Not a flawless, mechanical timepiece to hand down over the generations. Whatever the merits of Rolex, it is not considered a fine time piece by the watch crowd (see for example www.ThePurist.com).

syswei · May 2005

Haven't seen those ads myself but the approach isn't that unique to MB. Lexus a few years back did an IS TV ad that seemed to imply that the IS would help a man catch rather nice-looking women.

blckislandguy · May 2005

Somehow I find that a little help in that department is a legitimate ad technique. Playing on status insecurity says to me that perhaps they don't want to talk much about the product, like Rolex.

designman · May 2005

Some anecdotes I recall from let me see Ogilvy on Advertising? (Too lazy to look it up.)

When Ogilvy & Mather got the Rolls account (jeez, long ago), Dave sent his team out to discover the product benefits. One of his guys came back with an observation that the car was incredibly quiet, so quiet that you could hear the clock ticking. Well, a headline turned out to be something like At 50 mph in a RR, all you can hear is the clock ticking. Upon hearing this, the chief engineer said We really have to do something about that clock.

Ogilvy was a giant. One of his rules were always hire people who are better than you, if you do this the company will grow. Well, its great to be an owner and have that MO, but I wonder how many employees are secure enough to take that approach. He surely didnt subscribe to the CYA method.

Good subject. How would David Ogilvy sell Mercedes? Perhaps he would resign the account. Ha ha, fat chance. Actually, didnt he refuse certain accounts?

merc1 · May 2005

Other reviews differ of course, but I don't think it's fair to say for the GS that the luxury sports sedan target was flat out missed, more like "not as sporting as the 5-series in the eyes of some reviewers".

You're putting words in my posts again. I didn't say that the luxury sports sedan target was flat out missed. I said that if a sports sedan experience or traits are of a higher priority, the GS comes up short. If you put luxury before the sport, as you do (frame) in your reply, of course the GS comes out much better. But if you put sport before luxury as the 5-Series and M45 do then the GS comes up short. Have you driven the 5-Series or M45 Sport? They're very athletic cars and they wear their sporting traits on their sleeves. The M45 Sport in particular is much stiffer riding than any Lexus I've ever been in. The 5-Series also rides in a similar manner. The various reviews are crystal clear about their preferences and their rankings of the various cars display this vividly. The Automobile review put the M45 and 545i at the very back, while Car and Driver put the M45 first. Clearly Automobile was looking for luxury beore sport which is why the A6, GS, and E finished in that order. Also in the Car and Driver test they also mentioned that they might not be saying the things they said about the 5-Series if the V8 model had been present. You forgot to mention that part.

In the "eyes" of the reviewers looking for sport they put the M and 5 before the GS, and the GS comes out closer or on top when the reviewers are looking for luxury first (like Edmunds/Automobile). Its the same thing as you stating that the GS isn't as sporty as the 5-Series or M cars, didn't say the GS wasn't sporty itself.

M

paldi · May 2005

Does anybody care that the Phaeton looks like the new Passat? All Audis look alike, MB and BMW too.

oac · May 2005

..but I wonder how many employees are secure enough to take that approach...

Sadly, in this day and age of job insecurity, not many would.

How would David Ogilvy sell Mercedes?

Same way as the current ad agency - play up the styling and never mention anything remotely linked to its heritage or its features. When the S550 gets here, I am sure the ad would play up the new styling and the HP, not the heritage. Methinks if you have 116+ years of heritage, why not flaunt it ? Remind everyone what it means to be owning such a premium brand.... In MBs defense, I suspect Lexus would probably do same for the new LS as well....

BTW, anyone remember the car in the ad where a guy in a butler suit arranges lots of wine glasses pyramid-like on the hood of the car while the engine was running, to show how truly quiet the car was ? I think that was just spectacular ad, and well done too. Such an ad will do better than just playing on people's ego and envy of their neighbor.

Talking of neighbors, the lady across from my house just bought a new ES330 . I asked her why she bought the ES. Her answer: "I wanted a Lexus and all my friends liked the ES so I bought one" She had no clue as to any attributes of the car she just paid $40K for. Of course, with 5 cars in the garage, she has more $$$ to flaunt. A perfect candidate for an MB, if you ask me....

merc1 · May 2005

Well its the brand identity thing. The Passat isn't a bad looking car to emulate. You could do a lot worse. This uber-VW is a textbook luxury car imo.

M

syswei · May 2005

Fine, I'm tiring of this line of discussion. Basically you find the GS not sporting enough for your own tastes, good for you. What you shouldn't be doing imho is criticizing Lexus for somehow "failing to achieve" or "missing" a goal they never enunciated. They never said that they would "out-sport" the 5, only that they wanted a car that would win over some BMW customers. "Denny Clements, general manager of Lexus Division, says the time is right for Toyota's premium brand to win over BMW loyalists disaffected by that brand's move toward polarizing design and complicated electronic controls." http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=100820
"From a technology standpoint, the GS employs a sophisticated array of advanced safety, comfort and convenience features that will cause even the most enthusiastic driver to take notice," said Denny Clements http://www.autospies.com/article/index.asp?articleId=2607

Based on early sales and on winning most of the comparos against the 5, I'd say they've achieved at least some success against the goals that they actually stated as opposed to the goal that you invented for them.

syswei · May 2005

BTW, while I accept that some may view the 5 as having better sporting qualities than the new GS, others don't seem to. Have you actually driven a current 5 or GS? (I haven't.) The Automobile comparo certainly didn't like the driving character of the 5. And the C&D comparo was quite critical of the 5's transmission...something that shouldn't be affected by whether the test is of a 530 or 545. Read the quotes in my earlier post syswei, "High End Luxury Marques" #9370, 10 May 2005 9:13 am

ljflx · May 2005

Syswei - agree its getting tiring. But having driven the GS430 hard I can tell you it is very sporty, rides fabulously and is very connected to the road. It's hard to imagine anyone not being impressed with this car in every way - sport, luxury, phenomenal build quality and of course the inevitable great rerliability. The comparo I read faults Lexus - as usual - for sacrificing some handling in order to maintain a better luxury ride. Those type of reviewers are not rating sports luxury sedans in their entirety, they are rating just the highest level of sport part of it. They fail to understand the complete picture that many cars like the GS embody and words like "everyone will love all three cars" are put in as failed counterbalancing points (as well as advertiser protection). For whatever its worth the review also said the GS got the rave looks and easily stood out as the best looking car of the three. Lexus chose not to push the limit on sport because of who they are. If they went full throttle the car would have had a bumpier and harsher ride and that is not, and never will be Lexus. IMO - they found a great balance, though the car actually pushes sport quite a bit more than the luxury ride but will not sacrifice the latter just to win a contest. Does that mean its not a 5-series fighter? Hell no - to be a fighter you just need to be competitive, you don't need to win contests. This isn't a heavyweight title fight. Merc would be only be right if Lexus said its intentions were to build a sportier car than the 5-series.They never said that.

oac · May 2005

Merc would be only be right if Lexus said its intentions were to build a sportier car than the 5-series.They never said that.

And they never will cos Lexus is all about luxury first, sport second. From a reporter notebook of a ride in the IS350 at the Fuji Motor Speedway, looks like the new IS will give the 3- a run for its sporting money....

Here are excerpts:

Although I was only riding in the passenger's seat, there isn't just one word that could sufficiently describe the experience. From the moment I left the Fuji Speedway pit at full speed, I could immediately feel the full force of the acceleration. The meter instantly shot up to 120kph and I was instantly forced back into my seat. Rushing into the first corner, the driver applied the brakes and started his sharp turn. While it was only about 70kph, I could feel the blood rushing up the left side of my head from the tremendous Gs....

A car cant be considered to have ran the Fuji Speedway if it didn't try to do a high speed turn around a corner at 160 kph. The car swerved greatly and during that time I thought that we would flip over and spin out. But the car held tightly to the ground and easily recovered. Then the driver accelerated the car up to 180kph. This time he fully applied the brakes− I felt as if I would fly out of my seat, but the car came to a smooth stop...

If I could, I would have taken that car and drove it at full acceleration all the way home....

ljflx · May 2005

The only car of the current lineup Lexus would move to all sport is the IS. The mainstream LS, GS ans ES will always keep luxury high up in the equation with the GS leaning more to sport but never giving up its Lexus luxury. The new Gssets that tone wonderfully. The IS is an outlier car for Lexus, hence it is the car that will showcase sport and what Lexus could do with handling if it wants to.

designman · May 2005

Theres an argument going that Lexus will never give up sport for luxury, and this is the way the Lexus buyer wants it. Then the IS comes in and subverts that assertion, supposedly being a real sport sedan. Thats OK, maybe theyll steal BMW and Infiniti buyers. They had better, because logic now suggests Lexophiles will not buy the IS, just as they didnt buy the last one.

I don't think it's a bad plan. I just think you guys should get your story straight. You keep singing luxury and then hitchhike right onto sport whenever the opportunity arises ;-)

Oac... I remember that ad. Yes, it was pretty cool.

docnukem · May 2005

I remember that ad, also. The question is, though, what car were they selling? If we can't remember the car, the ad--while definitely cool--did not quite achieve its goal.

Granted, this was awhile ago. I might have remembered the car at the time.

designman · May 2005

I seem to recall either Lexus or Acura.

syswei · May 2005

BTW, anyone remember the car in the ad where a guy in a butler suit arranges lots of wine glasses pyramid-like on the hood of the car while the engine was running, to show how truly quiet the car was ?

I'm pretty sure it was Lexus for the LS. It was later copied by Nissan (I think for the Altima) to show that Nissan could achieve the same thing at a lower price point.

Lexus also did one where an old-fashioned phonograph played in an LS going over railroad ties, and didn't skip.

Another ad that I find memorable, because it got the point across, was an old one for the 7 which had the car on a turntable, one side showing a plain 7 and the other, as it turned, a 7 in all sorts of racing stripes/decals.

MB ads, on balance, I find to overemphasize status, which I find personally unappealing. For example, the entire nomenclature system, calling something the S-Class or G-Class or whatever, seems to try to highlight socioeconomic stratification. Like, if you buy MB, you're higher class than your neighbor.

oac · May 2005

The IS is an outlier car for Lexus, hence it is the car that will showcase sport and what Lexus could do with handling if it wants to.

Put another way, this is the Lexus that clearly should be sport first, luxury second. And from the visual inspection of the 2006 IS350 and the impressive spec sheet, it looks like it may hit the mark. Of course, we don't know anything about its underpinnings (suspension setup, gearing, etc) of this new car yet to suggest/imply if Lexus will actually leap ahead of the 3-series with the new IS. Hopefully, it will get into the auto rags hands prior to its October release so that we can get some *evaluations and analysis*.

designman · May 2005

Assuming the IS mounts a formidable challenge to the 3 and the reviews support this, I think they should position it as such in their advertising and be aggressive about it. The reviews alone are not going to make it fully achieve its sales potential. In addition to performance, there is a lot of BMW branding and brand loyalty to overcome. IMO they have to go directly at them. Also, don't forget that Lexus has to overcome its own image and branding if they want to sell a real sport sedan. It will not be easy since the new 3 appears to be better than the last one with regard to performance. This is BMW's turf. It will be exciting to watch. But I don't care how good the IS is, it has its work cut out.

ljflx · May 2005

That was definitely the LS that did the ad - to emphasize the smoothness of the engine.

I saw that MB ad on the E-class in the NY Times today. Based on the ad you're going to buy a car - at least in part - so that others envy you. Don't you just love ads that appeal to people's insecurities? The ad actually suggests insecurity as a reason to buy an MB. It's a dumb ad that should be pulled ASAP.

oac · May 2005

This is BMW's turf. It will be exciting to watch. But I don't care how good the IS is, it has its work cut out.

Agree.

BUT, putting the new IS side-by-side with the new e90 shows the contrast in styling and interior appointments. The IS handily beats the Bimmer in both areas. Left to prove for Lexus are the handling, the brand image, and the buying public's interest. If Lexus hits any 2 of the 3, the new IS will be a huge success.

BTW, did you read the WSJ or USA Today article (last week, I forget the date) where they reported on Toyota's incredible success with the youth market (Scion brand), the mid-level market with the hybrid (Prius), and the luxury market with its Lexus brand. They showcased a company that is on a fast track of success and it will take an act of nature to stop them. Quite a revealing article, imo....

designman · May 2005

A looker. In my opinion it's the most attractive vehicle in Toyota's kingdom. And thank God, because it's like a locust invasion.

kdshapiro · May 2005

"The IS handily beats the Bimmer in both areas"

Sorry, that is only wishful thinking and you might add IMHO.

ljflx · May 2005

Not sure what you mean by MB design coming back. The mid and late 90's iniated more stylish MB designs. The cars before that were far more bland and boxy. The S-class in the posted pix - IMO - is a noticable falloff from the current design and if it has that RL/7-series trunk deck then it's a big falloff. I also don't like the creased line on the side. Maybe its me but the S almost looks like a big Honda in those pix. The only car that looks good to me there is the CLK.. However, I do believe merc1 posted those pix a long time ago and dismissed them as fakes.

How big is this new S supposed to be? I read somewhere that they are going back to the 209" range.

blckislandguy · May 2005

Speaking of social stratification etc., an old high school friend called recently and reminded me that in high school I was in the A Section and he in the C Section. The problem is he continued that the A Section students didn't do very well in their careers because they were too bookish. "That's why Mercedes has a C Class but no A Class!"

Oac, you are absolutely right. MB should flaunt their 116 years of German engineering, technology, etc. But, and this is the point I was gently making, if all they flaunt is status because they can't/won't talk reliability, durability, four valves per cylinder, goes like mach snell (forgive my GI German) etc. then they are on the slippery slope to becoming just a bauble. Like Rolex is today. Simply a consumer good with no inherent perceived differences other than it is a status object. Like Izod used to be (until it lost its status because consumers in the mid-60's found the jerseys were cut wierd because the French moved the production to Asia).

oac · May 2005

A Section students didn't do very well in their careers because they were too bookish...

You know what they say, too much education hurts the brain....But seriously, MB has the A-class; its just not sold in the US (yet).

brightness04 · May 2005

Typical life cycle of a brand. Most historically successful brands go through that cycle. Brands typically first acquired recognition because their dependability, be it Rolex, or Rolls-Royce, or Daimler-Benz, or Pan Am. Then the subsequent generations of managers try to capitalize on such recognition and make more profit, which is okay so long as they keep up the products and services; eventually someone comes along and push the steak-vs-hamburg logic they learned in economics 101 to the extreme, and actually believe that they can keep up the brand simply by charging more and more money, never mind the products and services. It's all down hill after that. Every brand goes through that, assuming they ever attain a degree of recognition at all.

brightness04 · May 2005

> But if you put sport before luxury as the 5-Series and M45 do

That's not true at all. Having owned two 5 series previously, I know quite well what 5 series is about. 5 series is BMW's family sedan, with luxury and sporty pretensions. In case you did not notice, the bulk of 5 series sales are with carry-over 3-series engines. If you want sport before luxury, get a 3 series, same engine, ligter weight and more tidy dimensions.

merc1 · May 2005

You're right this is tiring, but what you're simply incorrect about what Lexus stated goal was. They said point blank that the 5-Series was the competitor for the GS, and that means sports sedans to people who keep up with such things. They did so enuciate that goal. I didn't event anything. You're trying to frame the argument by saying things like "out sport" and "flat out" which are words I have never used anywhere here. Of course they didn't say anything like that, no car company ever does in a press release about a new car.

Based on early sales and on winning most of the comparos against the 5, I'd say they've achieved at least some success against the goals that they actually stated as opposed to the goal that you invented for them.

Sales don't mean they've built a true 5-Series competitor unless you know somehow that a great deal of these sales aren't from existing Lexus customers and are instead from 5-Series converts. The car sells on its on merits, which are far from being bad, but sales don't automatically mean that the 5-Series has been met on its terms.

The reviews speak for themselves. The Road and Track comparo is most telling. They clearly state as a sports sedan contest that the 545i and M45 is where the true "contest" was after a few days of driving all three cars. There is no way to rephrase what the basic outcome is in test in which sport is put first. The 5 and M45 top the GS in that area. Doesn't mean that the GS isn't sporty or that it is like the LS/ES. It just isn't as sporty as the true sports sedans in its class.

Have you actually driven a current 5 or GS? (I haven't.)

Well I have. I actually drove the GS300, GS430 and M45 back to back. I've driven the 545i twice since it came out. Another reason why I say you need to drive the cars in order to get what I and the reviewers are saying. The M45 Sport in particular is an animal when pushed. Totally different from the GS430. The only car we didn't drive that day was the RL. Also, in the Car and Driver comparo didn't power come up as a compliant about the 530i? Yep. They clearly state that they might not being saying the same things if the V8 was present.

BTW, while I accept that some may view the 5 as having better sporting qualities than the new GS, others don't seem to.

All I can say is see Road and Track, June issue. There are plenty of "others" that see this. I'm not sure why you don't see what Automobile was looking for when they put the A6, GS and E in the top three spots, that to me says they weren't looking for sport first like the R&T test. As such Automobile put the M45 and 545i near the bottom whereas R&T put them 1st and 2nd. If that doesn't clearly prove different priorities I don't know what does.

M

syswei · May 2005

you're simply incorrect about what Lexus stated goal was

I'm still waiting to see some quotes.

They said point blank that the 5-Series was the competitor for the GS

I accept this, and the GS has so far won a majority of the comparos against the 5, so far as I am aware. So they seem to be competing reasonably well against the 5.

5-Series was the competitor for the GS...and that means sports sedans

That's what it means to merc1. You keep saying sports sedans as opposed to luxury sports sedans. Do you think BMW considers the 5 to be the former or the latter?

Bottom line is: Lexus wanted to compete better against the 5-series with the new GS, and has won a majority of the comparos against it, as far as I am aware. The company's stated objective has been reasonably-well achieved. Not 100% achieved because Lexus has failed to compete against the 5-series when it comes to merc1's and R&T's notion of what a sports sedan should be, while succeeding in competing against the 5 when it comes to C&D's and Automobile's notion of what a luxury sports sedan should be .

syswei · May 2005

BTW on the C&D comparo, the 530 placed 6th and the GS430 2nd. I'm perfectly willing to believe that had they tested a 545, BMW would have placed better than 6th. But would they have leaped ahead by 4 places to finish ahead of the GS? That's an open question. A higher dollar cap would have allowed the GS to be more heavily optioned (against a stripped 545). And you still haven't answered how testing a 545 rather than a 530 would have fixed this problem that C&D pointed out:

the manumatic six-speed in our test car...resisted our inputs with pigheaded obduracy, particularly on the tight Streets of Willow road course, where it would simply ignore requests. Other times it would shift without being asked.

Would a car with a fault like that really finished 1st or 2nd? Somehow, a manumatic that sometimes ignores requests and other times shifts without being asked doesn't sound like a proper luxury sport sedan to me. But maybe that's just me, and the true cognoscenti of the sport sedan world really prefer it that way.

Just as an aside, since we're on the subject of transmissions, one of the reasons I've never owned an MB is that when I tested the E back in 1998, the transmission would sometimes upshift or downshift at times that made no sense at all. That was a real turnoff. (I'm sure its fixed now, but these days I have more reason to be concerned about MB's reliability and customer service.)

syswei · May 2005

"One thing which will set the IS500 apart will be economy. Engineers are focused on developing a motor which not only produces massive muscle, but also uses very little fuel when cruising. The car will feature a 5.0-litre V8 boasting 400bhp...But Lexus bosses are not resting on their laurels, as they also plan to produce a mighty 500bhp version of the LS, powered by a 5.0-litre V8 hybrid unit. This LS600h is said to offer super-saloon space with the economy of a V6."
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/55833/lexus_muscles_in.html

merc1 · May 2005

That's what it means to merc1. You keep saying sports sedans as opposed to luxury sports sedans. Do you think BMW considers the 5 to be the former or the latter?

Thats because for one Lexus mentioned BMW's 5-Series as the competitor to the GS and a BMW is a sports luxury sedan first as opposed to a luxury sports sedan. One drive and you can see and feel where the priorities lie. This is why BMW and Mercedes have co-existed for years. Infiniti and Lexus are working out a similar relationship.

I'm sure you can find the press releases and articles if you chose to do so. To declare the 5-Series or BMW in general as the target means meating BMW on their turf. Lexus hasn't done that. Everyone else remembers when Lexus delcared BMW as the target and 5-Series specifically as the target for the GS.

Bottom line is: Lexus wanted to compete better against the 5-series with the new GS, and has won a majority of the comparos against it, as far as I am aware. The company's stated objective has been reasonably-well achieved. Not 100% achieved because Lexus has failed to compete against the 5-series when it comes to merc1's and R&T's notion of what a sports sedan should be, while succeeding in competing against the 5 when it comes to C&D's and Automobile's notion of what a luxury sports sedan should be .

Actually the bottom line isn't that the GS has won the majority of the comparos its been in. First of all the 530i vs. the GS430 is ridiculous on C&D's part, that test wasn't fair to BMW or Lexus or the readers who know better than to put two so unevenly matched cars in a comparo. The only other test in which the GS430 beat the 545i is in Automobile where they put luxury before sport. In the Road & Track test where sport is put first the GS430 lost out to the 545i and the M45. The way I see it they both have a win over each other, depending on the criteria being used to evaluate them.

Do you think BMW considers the 5 to be the former or the latter?

Do you really have to ask that question about a BMW? Of course BMW considers itself a sports sedan first in anything short of a 7-Series.

BTW on the C&D comparo, the 530 placed 6th and the GS430 2nd. I'm perfectly willing to believe that had they tested a 545, BMW would have placed better than 6th. But would they have leaped ahead by 4 places to finish ahead of the GS? That's an open question.

Incorrect. The GS430 finished third. You are correct as to whether the 545i would have beat the GS, but thats all speculation. The Road and Track comparo proves that as a sports sedan the 545i and M45 are better at the job. You're trying to discredit the R&T review because it only proves my point.

Also in the C&D test, the 530i it still beat the GS430 in the "Chassis" department quite easily, this being the area where how a car drives (i.e. sport) is measured. It even managed to tie with the much more powerful GS in fun to drive also.

The "Powertrain" section is where the BMW lost the most points compared to the GS430. Check the stats yourself.

Seems to me a 545i would have scored much better with that V8.

M

stroudman · May 2005

I drew a lot of heat for saying as much, but if you look in the new road &track issue, there is a blurb about the new M-class that says, paraphrasing, something to this effect. 'the vehicle credited with starting the whole suv-that-drives-like-a-car craze is back with a whole new model for 2006.' I didn't write the page # down, but it was somewhere in the first ten pages or so, and I'll check to see if it's on the web, it should be.

syswei · May 2005

Point taken. When you first talked about the M as inventing a category, it really didn't occur to me that you meant carlike-riding-SUV since the ML was body on frame and as I had viewed the it as being more notable for its accessible pricepoint. Maybe I was wrong, I wasn't following the ML very closely back then. I can't remember why exactly but I didn't even consider it before buying an RX back in 1999.

ljflx · May 2005

A quote from the star ledger today

"While most consumers are concerned about gas prices at the local service station, many are unaware diesel, which fuels trucks and some manufacturers has increased even more".

Anyone know why diesel prices are rising so much?

Given the lack of demanfd for diesel by today's cars it would seem that If there really was a move to diesel cars in the future, diesel fuel costs would skyrocket.

High End Luxury Cars

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles