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Comments
The bottom line is it will be difficult for them to compete in the luxury car market against a big engined hybrid with the quality of LEXUS......I really see the Germans in a trap, just like Ford and GM who are so tied up by the Unions they really have little chance to be competetive...With the Europeans it is the Socialist Governments and ever increasing regulation and taxes.
Is anyone here happy that there is a new board for "Euro" luxury sedans? All this does is split what should be one board for all luxury sedans. Now, all of us interested in luxury sedans have one more board to subscribe to. So is this board left to discuss only Japanese, American, and non-euro luxury? No. Posters on the other board will probably want to check here as well as post here any information they might want to pass along. There are lumpers and there are splitters. This seems like a pointless and needless split.
I understand that those who started the other board are tired of endless arguments about which brand is better. In the immortal words of Monty Python, "Let's not argue about who killed who...". Why can't we just discuss the merits of the cars rather than bashing a brand because we don't like it or a particular car of that brand? Anecdotes are fine as long as they don't become sweeping generalizations or accusations. To quote another source (Rodney King), "Why can't we all just get along?"
Since you acquiesced tp the creation of an Euro High-End forum, maybe you should rename this forum non-Euro High Luxury End, eh ? Just like Len opined earlier.... That way we all can get to post our parochial feelings about our brand of choice. I don't mean this in a negative way, but simply stating the obvious....
It really shouldn't baffle.
First, it lowers costs for both GM and Toyota.
Second, at a time when GM is struggling, Toyota is trying to to keep the possibility of a foreign backlash to a minimum in the US.
Third, With fuel cells or any other technology that replaces the ICE, there will need to be new infrastructure to fuel the cars. If you have several big carmakers coming out with different types of fuel cell vehicles, the possibility of having different types of infrastructure heightens. IF the 2 biggest car companies jointly develop, it leaves less room for multiple types of fuel cell vehicles, and therefore simplifies infrastructure.
Why yes.
This discussion was created to include all high end marques (although most of you didn't include all of them, as we all know). It actually has quite a history; you can tell that just by the numbers of posts alone. It will remain available for those who want to discuss all high end marques. If/when participation stops, it will archive itself. In this case, there's no need for any interference by me in any of these things.
I don't know whether it will succeed, but yes, if someone wants to create some other High End discussion, we can certainly give it a try.
Someone made a comment about "exclusionary" discussions. We have them all over the place. Subjects other than what is named in the topic title are generally excluded by definition. The subject of a discussion, generally speaking, needs to be a broad enough topic to sustain thoughtful conversation. The new discussion certainly fits that criterion just as this one does.
Obviously, everyone is free to participate in whichever discussions interest them and ignore the ones that don't.
In any case, we are here to talk about the cars - we need to return to doing just that. Discussion management and/or the behavior of some Forums members is not the topic here.
I'm sure everyone knows or can obtain my email address (click on my name) if you have anything further to say. Just please give me a chance to answer you instead of coming here and posting about it. Believe it or not, I am not around 24/7.
Thanks.
Posts addressing the recent off-topic subjects here have been removed.
The roadmap for Lexus in the next 18 months are listed below:
April 2005
'06 RX400h
September 2005
'06 LX470 with the bigger motor
'06 SC430 refreshed
October 2005
'06 IS250
6 speed stick & slush box
220hp
$32K and up
'06 IS350
- 6-speed slushbox ONLY (sadly)
- 325+hp
- "Sport Package" option w/18" wheels
- top out $45k
March 2006
'07 ES350: 3.5L motor and a new sheet metal.
April 2006
'07 RX350: 3.5L motor as in the ES
May 2006
'07 GS450h: V6-h, will be faster than the GS430
September 2006
'07 LS460
'07 LS460h with 2 body styles, one 6" longer than regular LS
'07 GS350
'07 GS460
MY2008/2009 - projections !
IS vert, w/retractable hard top
"Super LS" (>$100K)
"SuperCoupe" projected speed >200 MPH
But you remember the original RX300?? Nobody heard anything about it until very close to launch.
Don't forget MB has the R-class coming out and rumor is BMW is working on something similar, not to mention the Audi Q7 will be in this territory also. I would bet Lexus will green light the HPX for production, if it hasn't already.
The MB looks awful and had a better look in its early sketches. Let's hope Lexus stays true to the design it has already showed us.
It's got a sharp interior though and a muscular stance.
Overall though, I think MB styling is heading downhill. The next S-class looks hideous from spy pics with the Maybach like rear end.
If the HPX production version comes out close to the HPX concept, it will look good. And, IMO, the new design theme is working well on the GS and IS.
http://www.lexus.com/about/concept/lf-x.html
It also seems they are very serious about this car. I think it's a great looking car from the back and side but needs some cosmetic fixing in the front end.
http://www.lexus.com/about/concept/lf-a_gallery_exterior_photos.html
I hope Lexus builds it cos I'd want it too... But I am back in the market for a lightly used LX (preferably an '03 or newer). But I am still finding the prices rather high. I wonder why it is that hard to get a 3-yr-old LX for a decent price ! I just gotta keep searching and waiting, and if I wait long enough to hear about the HPX, I'll just wait long enough to buy one instead....
I was in the same boat a couple years ago, before I bought a Highlander Ltd with the $35k or so that I was willing to spend. The usual rule of thumb of half price in 3 does not apply to LX at all, or much of the rest of the Lexus line up for that matter. I did find a few LX on auction by a NYC dealer on Ebay . . . the hitch for me was that the mileages were high.
Not good news for me, Len. It is equally pretty hard to buy from a dealer here on the west coast at a reasonable price. All are so inflated, it is ridiculous ! I am seeing 2001 and 2002's with <60K miles retailing at dealer lots for $40K and up. That is simply unbelievable. I am looking to pay no more than $40K for an '03, but I may have a long time to wait for one at that price. Maybe when the '06 comes out should devalue the '03s a tad. Maybe....
Not a single German brand won a category in IQS. It was a GM-Toyota/Lexus sweep, sprinkled with a couple snippets of Ford trucks. Unbelievable, that GM is more reliable and has higher quality than an MB ! I never thought I'd see this so soon....
If I were MB or BMW, I'd pay kadzillion amount of Euros to lure the head of production at the Tahara Plant. I am sure there is a price for everyone !!! That'd give them a fighting chance to beat Toyota/Lexus in quality....
Really? The only GM brand I see anywhere close to Mercedes-Benz is Cadillac and they tied! Yeah GM outranked DCX as a whole, but no GM brand outscored Mercedes idividually. Easy to hype things up minus the facts. I think a lot of people would be glad to drive a Mercedes that beats Toyota in initial quality vs driving the average crappy GM car. I know I would. Buick scored higher than MB? Probably the most oudated group of wannabe luxury, but blue-hair set cars on the road. I'll take the MB, BMW or Audi for about a million reasons.
If I were MB or BMW, I'd pay kadzillion amount of Euros to lure the head of production at the Tahara Plant. I am sure there is a price for everyone !!! That'd give them a fighting chance to beat Toyota/Lexus in quality....
Why would they want to do that? They'd have to seriously ugly up the design and dumb down the dynamics all in order to get the approval of the survey-is-the-bible crowd. No thanks.
Gee lookit terrible Audi ranked higher than Infiniti and way higher than Acura. Where is the quality that Acura is known for?
There seems to be a singular definition of quality here. If anyone really thinks a GM car is of totally higher "quality" than a MB or BMW there is serious lack of knowledge at play. A GM car is able to ace a reliablity survey for 90 days, yet they're built like crap and outdated in many areas. Yet they're of higher quality than a MB. Yeah ok, only if you don't understand what total quality is.
Consumer Reports puts the Lincoln Navigator in the most unreliable vehicle in America, yet JDP says its in the top 3? Ok.
M
Really? That must be why Porsche is 5th from the bottom and has been dropping every year recently.
M
ALG Winners
http://autos.msn.com/advice/article.aspx?contentid=4020218&src=windowshopping
Really?? What do you think is Buick? A BMW?
> Easy to hype things up minus the facts.
Speak for yourself.
> I think a lot of people would be glad to drive a Mercedes that beats Toyota in
> initial quality vs driving the average crappy GM car. I know I would.
Except there is only a single MB model making into the top three models of any of the 18 vehicle categories: the SL in "Premium Luxury Cars," and it was #3 under Lexus occupying both #1 and #2 (SC430 and LS430).
> Buick scored higher than MB? Probably the most oudated group of wannabe
> luxury, but blue-hair set cars on the road. I'll take the MB, BMW or Audi for
> about a million reasons.
Sure, excuses. While we are on the subject of prejudice, why don't we just lable MB, BMW and Audi as the most outdated group of wannabe luxury pseudo-Aryan set cars on the road. I will take any American or Japanese luxury car for about a million reasons.
M
M
The IQS scores are based on owner reports, see ? And MB owners have graded their cars poorly built compared to the Buick. How is that difficult to understand ? So knocking GM is the wrong thing; complain to owners of MB and tell them to stop giving such poor grades to their cars and trucks. That'll help MBs ranking pretty well too.... I rue the day MB ever makes it to a #1 spot on the JDP IQS ranking, bcos Merc1 will probably be one of the first to throw it in our faces... But seeing how MB execs are handling their quality and reliability issues, I doubt that day will come anytime soon....
Audi, MB still are barely above industry average, and BMW seems to be threading water, quality-wise, which may be a good thing, at least they aren't going backwards like MB....
Audi has a score of 106 and Mercedes 104, yet this is seen as being barely above the average of 118. Mercedes is going "backwards "yet they went from 10th place in 2004 to being in a tie for 5th place, this year. Yet this seen as going "backwards". Must be the new math.
Does this line of reasoning make a Toyota a poor product since they scored below Mercedes as a brand this year?
Earth to OAC - Read the chart before posting! GM beat DCX as a whole, while Buick's outdated and primitive cars beat Mercedes by 4 points. Whooptie do. Can't wait to drive a Buick. How exciting.
Autoweek side by side view 2005 vs 2004
M
So while I read the chart and subscribe to its results, you use the chart only if it meets your line of reasoning. If you don't subscribe to JDP and its IQS ranking, why bother to even talk about it, eh ? So you do care about this stuff afterall.... Wake me up when MBs actually have less problems per 100 cars than a Lexus does, then we'll talk.
Your logic by putting MB down for their score would also put Toyota down because they scored less. Apparently there is a double standard in play here. Mercedes score is nothing while Toyota's is less, but thats ok because they are a mass market producer.
I don't subscribe to anything from JDP or CR, nor did I dispute what they found.
My point here is that if you're going to use the chart in your post you could at least get the data right.
M
> milk float.
What's wrong with pushrod engines if they work well for the road conditions that they are designed? Grea torque off the line and good highway mileage. There isn't a single MB non-turbo V8 on the market today that can produce 400+ hp like the Corvette pushrod V8 can do, not to mention in as small a package.
Ever considered perhaps a soft ride is what some people want? E class has a softer ride than C, S-class is even softer, S-class limos are softer yet.
> A Buick isn't a 1/5 the car a Mercedes is.
It can equally be argued a MB isn't 1/5 the car a Buick is . . . by saying-so. In fact, while we are on the subject of IQS, assertion of Buick superiority is slightly more valid, by 105-to-104, to be exact. On long term reliability, Buick has much less problem than MB.
> Who said anything about prejudice? Someone really needs a timeout.
I see, speaking of yourself again. If you find the exactly same verbiage and sentence strcuture turned against you rather upsetting, then step back and take a deep breath before dishing out.
I have said before as I see the newer Mercedes on the road these days it is looking different to me, where once I really admired the styling it is wearing thin with me...It looks dated.
The nice thing about the old LS 400 and even the LS430 is their timeless design...especially with LS 400. The new GS is just a beautiful car in my book.
Mercedes/Chysler needs to pull some rabbits out of the hat... soon.
No one is putting MB down, MB is putting MB down with its lack-luster quality performance against the likes of GM. MB should be challenging the likes of Lexus, not trying to beat GM's quality.... I didn't make the IQS results up, JDP did, based on OWNERS responses. If anything, you should direct your voice to MB execs to strive to do better to help the brand climb back to its lofty heights. Competing with the likes of GM for higher quality is certainly not the way to go. That is what I meant by (a) try to hire the Production head at Toyota's Tanaka plant (which you misinterpreted to styling cues, instead of production....), and (b) try to take Lexus on the latter's area of strength.
Unlike you, I am offering ideas of how MB can turn things around, you OTOH, are content to bash JDP and anyone who subscribes to their work as hog wash... Its your choice, don't shoot the messenger (me), address the message (JDP).
Personally I find the vehicle dependability studies to be more important, though. These are based on 3-year results rather than 90 days. We'll see how the Germans are doing 3 years from now...possibly the improvement will be enough to put me in a BMW or even MB.
ON the style front, I think Chrysler is doing a excellent job and it's showing in higher sales figures and lower incentives. The 300C looks good, the Magnum looks really good, and the Charger is gorgeous!