High End Luxury Cars

brightness04 · May 2005

> ON the style front, I think Chrysler is doing a excellent job and it's showing in
> higher sales figures and lower incentives. The 300C looks good, the Magnum
> looks really good, and the Charger is gorgeous!

Chrysler has always been good at exterior design: Prawler, etc., dating back more than a decade. Before that, Chrysler was even a bona fide luxury brand. The real question is what's the 300C and Charger's staying power. Will they follow in the steps of the VW New Beatle, Ford Thunderbird and Chrysler's own PTCruiser, hot for a while then dive-bombing sales as the fad fades away and people come to the realization that the stylistic flares have significant trade-offs in the user-friendliness department (although I'm not sure that explains why PTCruiser stopped flying off the lot). I for one would not feel safe driving with those port-hole windows on the 300C.

stroudman · May 2005

"I saw stroudman had to take a shot at us though-unfortunately. I thought he was better than that."

Confirms my suspicions that this is a group effort. I felt like every post was a "shot." Not that I take any of it personally, but rather than discuss luxury cars in general, I became frustrated with the topic always being so polarized - lexus, lexus, lexus, versus MB, MB, MB. If that's not what you want to talk about, then read along, but don't bother posting, seems to be the format. The fact that another thread was started to discuss "European" luxury cars was just another way of saying 'can we please quit warring over the two most disputed luxury brands, and just talk about the topic in general.' I mean, if you are so sold on Japanese luxury cars, for example, why is acura or infiniti rarely if ever mentioned? If you're trying to convince me that lexus is a reliable, sensible brand that makes the most logical sense...you're preaching to the choir. This is such a pragmatic view, it's just like arguing politics. Just because YOU make your decision to buy a car on those criteria, and sell it as hard as you like, you are not a spokesperson for the luxury sect any more than I am as an MB salesman! Everyone spends their money on what they like, and thank God we don't all like the same things or we'd really be a bunch of bores. Again, I posted out of frustration, and felt like I had to speak my mind. And HOST, I know you'll probably strike this post, and if you do, I'll understand, but I meant no offense to any of my "rivals," and I don't think I was out of line. I enjoy participating in this forum, and learning from all who post...you are all probably older and wiser than I, and what is posted here will either confirm what I already know, or teach me something new, so either way, I can't loose.

garyh1 · May 2005

Did you all see these pics of the '07 MB S with the wraps off? I am so sorry to see those fender flares appear to be actually part of the final design. And the rear-- did Bangle take over design for all German manufacturers? Why do I feel as if they took the current car, which is poetry in motion, and overlaid the worst features of a CTS on it?

I was really hoping that MB would have solved their reliability issues by the time my current '05 LS will be due for replacement, and I could go back to buying an MB. But now I am going to have to look at other options-- or just keep my LS until the the next next-generation S comes out. Thank goodness I realistically have that long-term hold option with an LS.

2007 S Class

merc1 · May 2005

You stated that Mercedes' quality was going backwards. All I did was point out that statement isn't correct. I didn't "bash" the survey at all and again I've never disputed what they found. I stated that if you're going to mention MB and survey in the same post you should at least do so accurately. Who said anything about Mercedes trying to "beat GM's quality"?

Unlike you, I am offering ideas of how MB can turn things around, you OTOH, are content to bash JDP and anyone who subscribes to their work as hog wash... Its your choice, don't shoot the messenger (me), address the message (JDP).

I haven't seen any such thing in a post from you. All you offered was a incorrect spin on the results. BTW, I think we've had this conversation before about what I have done as far as ideas on what MB can do. Did you forget that? We had a very good conversation (no debating) about this a while ago.

I didn't shoot the messenger, only the bogus information.

M

merc1 · May 2005

That picture is no where near being the real thing. Not by a long shot. The picture is one of the worst computer generated images I've seen of the S-Class.

M

merc1 · May 2005

Got tix on Fandango for midday Friday. If you want to fly to NJ, I'll treat you. Heck, you can drive the GX470 or LS430 too - Your choice.

An offer I can't refuse.....

Hmmm the GS or the LS? I'll take the LS I guess seeing as though SUVs aren't my thing. They had a spot on the local news here today in which people were going to the movies instead of work. You should have seen it people covering their faces and trying work from laptops in the movie theater lobbies all over. Too funny.

M

oac · May 2005

A Maybach-like rear is correct as Edmunds described it. Without seeing it from the frontal view, its difficult to tell much about the exterior styling. From the side pic, the new S just doesn't add any interesting xter beynod the fender flares, IMO. I cannot imagine doing away with the current style, since it was such a beautiful design, graceful and luxurious.

By the same token, recent MB releases leave a less than impressive feeling. Take the new CLS, the butt is worse than the Bangled 7-series (see for yourself in the link below):

and the interior....

I don't know about you, but I am not impressed. This is not a good styling direction, imo. Maybe they need an L-Finesse approach and do a complete overhaul. Maybach-like styling ain't an improvement.

merc1 · May 2005

Thank goodness the marketplace doesn't share your opinion, neither does anyone in the press from what I've seen. The CLS is a hit inside and out. A L-Finesse approach would be the worst mistake Mercedes could ever make. Styling isn't their problem by a long shot. Good styling doesn't need a name either. All this L-Finesse, Art & Science and Flame Surfacing stuff wouldn't be needed if these companies either stuck to their previous styling cues and/or if they had any to begin with.

Most people know good styling when you they it, no goofy names or labels are needed.

M

maxhonda99 · May 2005

"That picture is no where near being the real thing. Not by a long shot. The picture is one of the worst computer generated images I've seen of the S-Class."

Have you not seen the pics of a cladded and taped up 2007 S-class on the net?? Those pics are unaltered and you can easily see the major details of the car, like the thick rimmed wheel well trim, and the maybach like rear end. Totally unattractive, especially compared to the current S-class, which is simple perfection in design.

michael_mattox · May 2005

Merc:

I can only give my opinion as a part of the Market Place...but...That interior design is hidious..and IMO...the color is even worse.

I know that even ugly puppies (if there is such a thing) are loved by someone.

michael_mattox · May 2005

Merc:

I have to agree with you...Toyota has fallen....for it's low and mid priced cars to be rated a full point below Mercedes is a crime....They need to get their toyota act together.

ctsang · May 2005

The rear end of MB CLS looks like a Buick, sme for the inside.

ctsang · May 2005

Is Toyota now considered a high end luxury brand by those german car fans?

michael_mattox · May 2005

It would seem so since they keep bringing it up...The Avalon is very nice if you haven't seen one in real life....It is about $38,000 loaded up.

ljflx · May 2005

Sith was excellent and a MUST SEE. Of course we had to watch Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back as a follow thru. I forgot how good the latter was.

paldi · May 2005

Of course you're really talking about Ronin, Tucker and Back to the Future. :P

merc1 · May 2005

Yes I have seen the pics, I'm the one that posted the real pics on the future models board. The original poster asked we'd see that pics like it was the real car caught out in the open and it is obvious that the pic Edmunds is showing is a poorly drafted computer image, not the real car.

Like I said before I'll wait until the official car is shown before I come to any conclusion on the design because that Edmunds pic is lump sided and even if the car does have those fender flares the rest of the body isn't going to be twisted and jumbled like that pic.

M

maxhonda99 · May 2005

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Enthusiasts/Spy_Shots/Spy_Shots_06_Mercedes_S-Class.S178.A- 8282.html

Better pics above of a lightly camoflouged S-class. Clearly visible are the maybach-BMW 7 like rear end and thick rim around the wheel wells.

merc1 · May 2005

Yeah those are some of the same pics that I posted Here a while ago.

M

jstyle · May 2005

I have a question. Today I went to my MB dealer and offered a deposit for a spot for the new S-Class and was told they wouldn't accept it. I thought the new S class was going to be available in fall 2005 or early Feb 2006. They told me that MBUSA told them it might be delayed until Sept. 2006 for intro in the USA as a 2007 model and they've stopped accepting deposits until they are told a 'for sure' date. Anyone have any info on this and is this correct information?

Thanks,

merc1 · May 2005

Well there really is no "correct information" just yet, at least not until the car is actually shown in Sept. Then we'll get a better idea as to when it will be launched here. Usually when Mercedes debuts a new car in the fall of a year in Europe we get it the following spring, but that might be the case this time around.

M

ljflx · May 2005

Merc - if Jstyle got good information, it may mean that the September debut showing will be put off. You think that is possible? Seems to me - based on his data - MB wants no mistakes with this car and is taking a better late than sorry approach. That would also put the 2007 LS and 2007 S new styles out at the same time. I don't think that has ever happened before.

ctsang · May 2005

So we may have a head-to-head comparison between 2007 LS and S at the same time. That will be awesome. I hope both win.

oac · May 2005

That would also put the 2007 LS and 2007 S new styles out at the same time...

Maybe this is the real intention. BMW already launched its re-do 750iL, ditto Audi's A8L. Since MB is Lexus' direct competitor, I'd like to see these two go at it head-on, which may be what we'll have by MY2007.

It's gonna be fun !

oac · May 2005

BTW, Len... I was in your neck of the woods this past weekend. Drove around East Hanover, Troy Hills, Whippany, Livingston, Parsippany, Morristown... all the way south to Moorestown, before heading back to my hotel in downtown Philadelphia. You guys have it so good up there with your huge lots and huge houses compared to the post-card sized lots we have here in So Cal. I am jealous... If its not the *four seasons* weather in the East Coast, I'd not mind living there... but you just can't beat the weather here in San Diego...

ljflx · May 2005

Colts Neck is very rural, more so then the towns you mentioned. It is a 10 acre zoning town with exceptions. I have 3 acres but the 4 homes in my cul-de-sac are on 39 acres due to the greenlands. Some old sub-divisions are 1.5-3 acres but you can't build anything new here that is affordable and there are no fire hydrants or street lights permitted by the town charter. But Monmouth County and the areas you went thru are always way up there in favored areas in the US to live. If you drove thru Princeton I hope you went by the university. It's a great campus. By the way Bucks county, Pa - north of Philly, (New Hope area) is absolutely gorgeous (and historic of course as that's where Washington crossed the Delaware).

Chicago, near the lake up to Evanston and the DC suburbs are two other areas I would love to live in. The Northwestern campus in Evanston is great also but my favorite campus (that I've seen) is Stanford.

I'm sure you saw plenty of the brands we discuss on this board, save Audi, which just doesn't seem to be all that popular in NJ.

Weather has been atrocious last few years with cool springs/summers and a lot of snow and cold (way more snow than normal) each winter.

oac · May 2005

Yeah, I drove by Princeton. But I've been to Princeton way too many times already. Never made it to Bucks Ct; I focused more on NJ than on Philly. Friends lives in Whippany and Moorestown so gave me the opportunity to explore the other cities/towns around as well. Saturday weather was gorgeous, Sunday and Monday were dull with overcast. Sunday rained on-and-off.... While San Diego was experiencing 90+ degree weather. Go figure !!!

3-acre lot home !! That's incredible ! My home in San Diego is worth ~$900K yet sits on 0.14-acre

If I had a 3-acre lot here in San Diego Cty, that house will be worth in the millions, and I'll be smilling all the way to retirement by now !

BTW, I did see quite a lot more domestics than foreign cars on the road. A few Audi's, a few BMWs, and lots of SUVs. The MBs I saw were mostly 4matics. Very few Lexus, and even fewer exotic cars. I only spent 2 days exploring, certainly not representative of the demographics over there. But if you come out to California and spend even 1 day, you cannot miss the huge proportions of foreign cars over domestics.

maxhonda99 · May 2005

"save Audi, which just doesn't seem to be all that popular in NJ."

You don't see alot of Audi's? I think Audi's are quite popular in NJ, relatively speaking of course. Of course the most prevalent luxury cars are probably RX330's. But I see alot of Audi's, especially the older A4s, and I'm starting to see alot of A6's in the princeton area. Also, I'm seeing quite a few new body style A8s.

ljflx · May 2005

Ithink part of the problem is the dealership near me in Monmouth county. It's seedy to say the least. You want to leave before you set a foot in it. Contrast that to Contemporary, which sells MB and Ray Catena - where the atmosphere is electric and you almost don't want to leave.

merc1 · May 2005

Not sure, but anything is possible. The S-Class is about the most important model launch image wise, if not the bottom line that Mercedes has. This is the real chance for Mercedes to strike back at a segment that has been overrun with newer, better made vehicles so they may hold it back to make sure that the launch goes much better than the 2000 S-Class did.

If the S and LS do hit the market at the same time I feel sorry for all the other players in this segment.

I finally saw the newly facelifted 7-Series today too, not that much change at first glance, but it does look better. It still doesn't make the eye list though.

Also, I'm surprised you don't see a lot of Audis where you are. I'd think they'd be real popular considering their all year capability. I'm betting that Audi dealer you speak of won't be there much longer. Audi has revamped every dealership here, except one over the past 2 years.

M

ljflx · May 2005

I see a lot more Audi in Conneticut and Wesrchester county. But if you talk to people, many opted for Audi because of the AWD. A4's were very popular in my old West Chestter county office and a few people who worked for me had them. But they were really problematic. A8's are really rare where I am. I've only seen a handful here in all the years I've lived here. I see that many S-class, LS430's and 7-series, particularly the first two, within minutes of getting in my car and driving. While 7's are fairly popular they are far less in number than the LS and S. But the X5, 5's and 3's are enormously popular around here. The ML has seemed to die. It was popular at its onset. TLC's and LX470's are also very popular here. But everything pales to the RX which you see around every turn

The Audi dealer near me is also Land Rover. I wonder if Audi has a lot of control there. I'll have to drive by and see if they upgraded. About a year ago it was as horrenbdous as ever. Lexus and MB have powerful first class dealerships here as does BMW (though they are a step below). That definitely influences buyers.

syswei · May 2005

Someone asked awhile ago why diesel prices are higher than gasoline. The WSJ has an article today http://online.wsj.com/search#SB111697347930142274 on the subject.

Basically, (1) alot of demand from China and India, and (2) less price elasticity...when energy prices go up, at the margin some people will drive their gasoline cars less, but that doesn't happen as much on the diesel side because much of the demand is from trucking and those guys keep right on driving.

Things will start to get worse in the fall as some refining capacity is temporarily shut down to convert to low-sulphur diesel in time for the 6/06 deadline.

louiein99 · May 2005

I am trying to find out information on the RX330 Performance Package. I have read that it improves handling, but that it will not make it like one of its German counterparts, nor will it improve acceleration.

No dealer seems to have one on the lot, so I am having to rely on some posts to determine whether the affect of the package warrants some extra dough.

maxhonda99 · May 2005

Yes, you definately see alot more Audi's in Connecticut for example. I guess the hilly terrain is a major driver of Audi Sales. Also alot of Saabs are visible in Connecticut.

mezeca · May 2005

Exactly!!! That is one of the reasons I love Benz, their stellar turning radius. Most people who ride in my car and are not a Benz owner, are quite surprized by this when I flip u-turns.

merc1 · May 2005

Yeah I'd always been told that the North East was a haven for Saab, Volvo and Audi.

I'd bet anything that the Audi/Land Rover dealer you speak of is under pressure from both Audi and Land Rover to just plain die and/or seperate. Both Audi and Land Rover have revamped their dealerships in a lot of areas.

M

tiny1 · May 2005

I'm looking at a 2000 740 iL and would like just a tad bit more seat travel backwards on the drivers seat. I heard it is possible to remove a clip and get an extra inch of travel??? Has anyone done this? Is there a down side to this modification that will cost me later...or is there a reason not to do it? Room is not a concern in back......Also, what do you folks think the line in the sand is in terms of cost of extended warranty? Nissan dealer offering 3/36 bumper to bumper for $3.5K (backed by Nissan). I'm guessing I could easily spend this amount in repairs over the next 3 years (car has 55k miles)...so I'm thinking it is worthwhile. Is there a better after-market warranty? I have all maint records from local BMW dealer, and don't see any glaring historical issues. Thanks in advance...

designman · May 2005

I did it on my 530. Takes all of 10 seconds. I cant imagine it being much different on the 7. Open the back door, get on your knees and look for the clip at the top-rear of the right-side rail that the seat rides on. Pluck it off with a screwdriver or pry it with a plier. You can easily replace it if desired, it snaps right on.

I was rather cramped until I removed it. I got about another two inches of seat travel. I dont know why they have it to begin with. My guess is that extreme seat travel puts you out of the side head airbag range.

oac · May 2005

I would rather have the warranty from the BMW dealer instead of the Nissan dealer. $3500 is a lot of $$$$ for a 3/36 warranty. You should be able to get one for under $2K if you try harder and look around. Do a Google search for extended warranty... BTW, what could go wrong within 85K miles (amount of total miles covered by the 3/36 you are looking to purchase) ? Most will be scheduled maint. costs... 60K and 90K miles, which are not covered by the warranty. Have you checked on the Edmund's BMW board on specific issues with the 2000 7-series ? That way you can forecast the out-of-pocket cost v warranty cost on yours, roughly speaking...

Good luck.

designman · May 2005

Sorry to be OT but I had to get the opinions of my pals in this thread who happen to be either marketing connoisseurs, aficionados or professionals. Anyone catch the Ford Mustang ad on American Idol last night? It showed the car tearing it up to the strains of the Star Spangled Banner played by simulated engine sounds. In consideration of the media environment and Mustangs branding, I thought it was a brilliant piece of advertising.

(BTW, I thought Vonzell would win. She had the purest voice. I liked Carrie but she needs to loosen up.)

tiny1 · May 2005

Thanks Designman. I'm hoping that it is just as easy on the 7. I like the size of this car, and with the extended version, folks in the back can stand to lose a little more room.

tiny1 · May 2005

Thank-you for the point of view oac...I would rather have a BMW warranty too, but this car happens to be sitting on a Nissan lot. Read-on for a weird story. Actually, I stalled too long when this very car was on the BMW lot in January and someone else bought it. I really felt sick because I wanted the car, but just couldn't pull the trigger fast enough. Three months later, I happened to be driving and saw it on the Nissan front row (sticks out due to special "highline" color). The buyer apparently drove it for 3 months and traded for a preowned Nissan pickup and a handful of money (citing financial hardship). Still interested, I went back to the BMW lot to pull maintenance records and happened to mentioned it to my old salesman. He remembered that the guy that bought it traded in a benz with temporary tags!! (3 + cars in 3 months). WOW! I researched it fully 3 months ago. It passed used car checks at the BMW and skeptical Nissan dealer and I have all maint records from birth with no glaring issues. The buyer did not take it in for anything after the sale (e.g. no bad service news post sale). And, it is still covered until 9/05 with BMW factory warranty (it was prior certified). I still like this car, but I don't know whether to think this is my destiny or a trap. This is one reason I really want a good bumper to bumper warranty. The deal as it stands now is 2000 740 iL, 55,500 miles, great condition, $23,800. Thanks for listening....I had to tell this to someone....

designman · May 2005

Tiny... try this forum..."BMW 7-Series Owners: Problems & Solutions". I think Mr Shiftright used to be the forum host there but he still hangs out answering questions. Chances are he'll give you a good answer. He's an industry pro and seems to have a handle on the 7s. Used BMW 7s can be tricky deals. They can be very costly to maintain and I'd go over the warranty with a fine-tooth comb. Also check the "Extended Warranty" forum.

merc1 · May 2005

(BTW, I thought Vonzell would win. She had the purest voice. I liked Carrie but she needs to loosen up.)

IMO, they really cut down the real talent weeks ago when the elimated whole rooms of contestants. They really didn't have anyone but Vonzell, Anwar and Constantine in the final 12 that really had any talent. The rest didn't even deserve to make it as far as they did, imo. I never liked Bo Bice anyway.

I stopped watching after my votes failed to keep Vonzell on the show. I only tuned in to the finale during the last 10 mins just to see who won.

M

bennych · May 2005

I really like the new 750 Li after test driving it and I am getting ready to make the purchase decsion. The only problem is my concern about reliability. Can anyone help with input particularly with regard to late model (2005) experience? Have things turned around or am I looking at just becoming a great pal of the BMW service manager? I appreciate your help.

oac · May 2005

Hi Tiny1: Designman's response is a good one. Also do check out Mr_Shiftright on Edmund's, he is a wealth of knowledge on cars in general.

A 5+ yr-old car with 55K miles and looking for a 3rd owner is worrisome enough. Do you know if the car was off lease when the second owner acquired it ? or did it come via the auction route ? May not be anything to worry about, but then it may be... It may just be a lucky draw on this one. Personally, I will pass on such a vehicle, but it may be destiny for you. Just continue your DD and cross your fingers...

ljflx · May 2005

I actually though the best singer won but that Vonzell and Bo were better entertainers. Vonzell is immensely talented and is genuinely nice. She will definitely land a record contract. She should do very well as should Bo and Carrie.

tiny1 · May 2005

Thanks for your help oac. The car was off a lease...and all maint was done at the local BMW dealership. I have all records, including items done when it was returned from the lease before it was offered for sale. I'm still considering, but proceeding cautiously. Just like last time when someone else bought it! I have a couple of notes on other forums looking for Mr_Shiftright. Thanks again....

Tiny1

tiny1 · May 2005

Thanks designman....I took your advice and posted to the "extended warranty" forum. I have a couple feelers out for Mr_shiftright also....Thanks again for the tips.

Tiny1

flyfisher1 · May 2005

My goodness, the hybrid is not an easier transition. Especially if one considers all of the extra parts involved (not including a price premium that is now more than the price of fuel). Add to that the mother of all batteries and you've got a cloudy future vs a diesel that only requires pulling up to a different pump at the gas station.

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