High End Luxury Cars

princeabubu · June 2005

It's dead here... I just wanted to let anyone that cares know that on June 20th the new S class is to be revealed to the public.

kdshapiro · June 2005

An automotive expert was on the air today. ljflx you may have heard of him, Ron Ananian (the car doctor). He was saying that hybrid batteries will have to be replaced after about 100K or about 3-5 years. Cost will be several thousands of dollars. Now, that's just his opinion, but based on the fact they are the same type of batteries used in cell phones I won't doubt it.

That 8 year warranty the automakers give is smart. My guess it covers the battery replacement.

How many of you would get another (or get one period) hybrid if you had to spend $4,000 on a new battery in 4 years?

ljflx · June 2005

Why would a $4K battery (that will likely be about $1-2K once production ramps) deter someone from buying a car that is $8-20K less than the German counterparts. That price - even if it holds at $3 or 4K is hardly a deterrrent given that price difeerential. Many people will also need 6-7 years to get to 100K miles. Hey - I bought a DLP TV that needs a new $250 bulb every 3-4 years as well. I think the mistake you make is thinking people keep looking at this as a return on investment. It's not. It's next gen engines that keep the planet cleaner and lower dependency on the mid-east.

Lastly do you think the Germans/Europeans are going to bet the ranch on diesel (or diesel hybrid where you then have the same battery replacement issue) vs.gas hybrid in the US? That is not a bet I'd make if I were them but God bless and good luck to them if they do. I'm afraid that what you are looking at here is VHS vs. Betamax all over again and diesel is the Betamax.

merc1 · June 2005

Well believe it or not diesels will always be around, especially in Europe because the technology is proven. Now in the U.S. diesels will face an acceptance problem from those who are clueless about their many advancements since the 80's, when diesels weren't all that great. The real test will be late next year/early 2007 when the Germans start a diesel offensive based on the U.S. getting low-sulphur fuel.

Autoweek is saying that Mercedes will do a gas/electric hybrid for the U.S. and Japan and a diesel/electric hybrid for Europe, sounds like the perfect solution to those caught up in the hybrid frenzy.

M

merc1 · June 2005

I just wanted to let anyone that cares know that on June 20th the new S class is to be revealed to the public.

Gasp!

M

kdshapiro · June 2005

Well that's certainly one viewpoint. Another viewpoint is the expense of the consumables is not worth the savings. Sort of like having the manufacturers give a printer away and then charging $50 for the cartridge. To me the issue with the battery is a big issue and one that had me thinking long before I heard it on the air.

Given the fact every cell phone battery I've had in the last few years starts to give way about a year after I bought it, I think the jury is out on the battery issue.

ljflx · June 2005

That's what I would have expected.

KD - the give a way the razor, charge for the blade marketing is a bad analogy here. The price of the battery is peanuts vs the price of the car and 100K miles is L/T usage not S/T. Also the car doesn't become inoperable w/o a battery. You still have a gas or diesel engine in there working full time.

gagrice · June 2005

Also the car doesn't become inoperable w/o a battery.

If ithe Hybrid is based on the Toyota HSD system. No battery No go. The Honda will continue on without a battery. You just lose power assist.

brightness04 · June 2005

> Now in the U.S. diesels will face an acceptance problem from those who are
> clueless about their many advancements since the 80's, when diesels weren't all > that great

The clueful know quite well that the European city air pollution is horrendous thanks to widespread diesel usage.

maxhonda99 · June 2005

"If ithe Hybrid is based on the Toyota HSD system. No battery No go. The Honda will continue on without a battery. You just lose power assist. "

Sorry. Toyota's with HSD can still drive on just the gasoline engine if the batteries go dead.

michael_mattox · June 2005

As a Prius owner my understanding is the Batteries will cost approx $2000 to replace today and probably 1/2 that when my warrenty runs out...(about the same as a timing belt)

I do not think this is a major issue...they are expected to go 100,000 mi....plus.

I have never heard a figure as high as $4000....

ljflx · June 2005

I never did either but I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. I had heard the same $2K figure you noted. Like any technology - the cost will go down with mass production. And of course the batteries will will get better and better.

kdshapiro · June 2005

I guess it remains to be seen. The figure was quoted by an automotive expert who has a radio show in the tri-state area.

All I know is that after several years in production, an original manufacturer replacement battery for my cell phone still costs $40. It would seem to me these batteries should sell for $2 on the street. (An original not a knock-off)

That's why I wasn't surprised by the seemingly high figure.

ljflx · June 2005

In all honesty I've never replaced a cell phone battery in 10+ years of cell phone ownership. The last couple of years I've changed phones every two years but I held my first phone for 5 years. And believe me I log a lot of cell phone hours. I've also never changed a cell phone battery for my wife either. Why would you even replace a battery when most phones are $50-100, barely more than the battery prices you are quoting. Even my V710 which is a phenomenal phone with a great speakerphone embedded in it is now down to $99. I'd bet a replacement battery is costly because it's not a common alternative people take. I also think it's a stretch to compare cell phone battery history to auto industry future engine developments. You are way too far out on a limb for me.

kdshapiro · June 2005

The cost of the phone is not the issue. It's the fact it's the same battery technology. My cell phone used to be good for a week between charges, now it's down to a day and sometimes less. The phones made these days are garbage with a half-life of a year, including the V710 (imho). So I like my phone that I have dropped on concrete, abused and it still works.

Still, we are just trading opinions and one needs to see how these vehicles fair in the future.

ljflx · June 2005

Agree - but I've got the V710 11 months now and it's great. I'll see if it makes it to next August for my 2 year anniversary renewal. One thing for sure - buy a cell with an excellent speakerphone. You really don't need bluetooth, a headset or anything with the V710 because that speakerphone in it is so good.

merc1 · June 2005

The clueful know quite well that the European city air pollution is horrendous thanks to widespread diesel usage.

Then they should also know that the U.S. isn't going to turn into Europe either and that diesels have been in use a lot longer there, and they're more than 40 percent of the market. Won't happen here.

M

kdshapiro · June 2005

I agree 100%. Next cell phone will have a great speakerphone.

michael_mattox · June 2005

gagrice:

yesterday I disagreed with your comment that the Toyota prius would not continue to run when the batteries go down....I WAS WRONG...You were absolutely right the car GAS Engine will NOT run if the hybrid Batteries do not charge...It sounds like a design flaw to me.

To make matters worse...My dealer did not know the answer to the orginal question. Even with Toyota...IT IS NOT ALL ROSES.

blckislandguy · June 2005

A couple of weeks ago I posted about the significant emphasis on status insecure people in a recent MB ad campaign for the E Series. The ads were replete with shallow references to how your best friends and neighbors would drool over you because you were in a MB. The ads had not references to tech specs, performance, 0-60 times, etc. Just crap about "driving people wild with envy" that would appeal to marginal people seeking acceptance. I thought the campaign was nuts.

A couple of ads I saw this week in both print and TV were the exact opposite. They talked about the thousands of patents that MB holds, the great engineering, the 111 year long track record, etc. etc. In short, the ads pushed MB's unique selling propositions: technology and heritage. Great ads. Fantastic ads. Ads drawing on powerful themes with examples that no one else can match. Ads that speak to values held by successful people, not wannabes. Ads that most importantly made me think, "OK, I'd like to be associated with the real thing that MB represents. Maybe I should put an E Series on my shopping list".

merc1 · June 2005

Did the ads highlight any particular Mercedes or just the brand overall?

M

michael_mattox · June 2005

Merc:

I also have seen the ads and they are very good...Kind of like the 70s and 80s ads with the concentration on Quality....

No specific Model other then the cars in General lots of the older models were flashed. (not the SUV if I recall correctly)

Talked about 100 plus years in the business and 10,000 plus Patents..Safety Features....Very Very good Ad. for Mercedes...

ljflx · June 2005

http://www.cnn.com/2005/AUTOS/06/17/toyota_fuel_cell.reut/index.html

Kirstie_H · June 2005

A reporter is interested in speaking with baby boomer women who have decided to indulge themselves by buying or leasing a luxurious or dream car. If you live in either Riverside County or San Bernardino County in Southern California and would be interested in speaking with this reporter, please send your name, daytime phone number and the car you purchased or leased to Pam Krebs, Edmunds.com PR, at pkrebs@edmunds.com by end of day Tuesday, June 21. Thank you

oac · June 2005

Can be seen here...

nexuslexus, "2007 Lexus LS" #327, 17 Jun 2005 5:42 pm

This sketch has recently been confirmed as close to the real thing by an internal Toyota/Lexus designer.

So what do you all think of this design ?

michael_mattox · June 2005

Much more dramatic and athletic looking then I had expected...I would need to see it in real life ...Where I suspect it will look a little more eligant.....

It shows great promise for me....I like what I see...I would be concerned if it loses head room ..or trunk space which have been turnoffs for me on the Mercedes.

paldi · June 2005

Here's the sketch...

Looks like a cross between a Caddy and a Phaeton with that arrow nose and Caddy headlights..

janan · June 2005

You're comparing a very small sports car to a very large luxury limo and saying the limo's lackluster. thats like comparing an offshore powerboat to the QE2 for god sake. The fact that the Jag's got a huge 4l V8 does not mean they skimmed on the luxury unlike the M3 which is a sports car and would definitely not compare as a luxury car.

navigator89 · June 2005

Thanks for posting that sketch. The new LS looks great.

The Lexus LS430, like most Lexus products has a nice interior, but it's exterior is painfully bland. The current LS still retains many of the styling cues that the LS400 had when it debuted in the early 90s.

The new car looks really sleek, even though it carries the stretched back headlights from the previous car.

Way to go Lexus!

merc1 · June 2005

Full Article

Pics:

I'm still not sold on the design, especially those wheel arches and that BMW 7-Series look-a-like interior.

Model range

S 350:
200 kW/272 hp

S 500:
285 kW/388 hp

S 320 CDI:
170 kW/231 hp (from first quarter 2006)

S 600:
380 kW/ 517 hp (from first quarter 2006)

Overall there are some things I like and some I don't, namely those wheel arches (which are hid in darker colors) and the BMW 7-Series dashboard design. More design comments pending.........

M

navigator89 · June 2005

Thanks for posting those pics they're great!

I'm a little disappointed in MB. Why is the new S Class dash such a copy of the current BMW 7? The center stack, and the navigation display scream "BMW 7 series"

Other than that, it seems like a nice car. However, from the pics it seems as if the rear seat is too low off the ground. And finally, why doesn't the new S Class have a wood steering wheel, the way all Lexuses and most Cadillacs do?

lexusguy · June 2005

Interesting. I agree about the wheel arches, especially the rear ones where it meets the rear door in that wierd little crease. The interior is so close to the BMW 7...what were they thinking there?

"And finally, why doesn't the new S Class have a wood steering wheel, the way all Lexuses and most Cadillacs do?"

Wood steering wheels dont match well with agressive driving. You'll notice there's no wood wheel in the 7 or A8 either. For the record, not every Lexus comes with a wood wheel. Leather wheels are optional on the GS, and Im pretty sure the new IS is leather only.

merc1 · June 2005

And finally, why doesn't the new S Class have a wood steering wheel, the way all Lexuses and most Cadillacs do?

Actually it does, but its optional...and its an acquired taste just like in Lexus' and Cadillacs. Wooden steering wheels are very tacky imo. Audi caved in and now offers one in which the entire wheel is covered in wood on the A8L W12. Yuck.

M

merc1 · June 2005

Not sure what they were thinking, but at least you do have the option of not using Comand for most things, per the initial writeup. The design overal is something I'll have to see in person to make a final judgement so there is some hope. The CLS and E-Class were the same way for me when I first saw their initial pics.

A few more pics:

A short wheelbase model:

The hidden phone keypad:

Gearshift moves to the steering wheel like the new M and R-Class vehicles:

The Panorama roof:

A good shot:

M

designman · June 2005

The S Im already worn out by the spy shots so this is anticlimactic. Its not ugly, it works, but is extremely disappointing. Comments on those me-too fenders will be in the billions. Another poorly-executed detail is the tumor that houses the instrument cluster. Finally, it needs a kink in the C-column. I am compelled to say it again its a giant RL with Pathfinder fenders. Will we ever see something remotely close to a knockout design from anybody again? Major opportunity here for the LS to kick butt.

About the LS sketch dont get your hopes up, thats not it, even if its an authentic sketch from Lexus. I highly doubt it will have those perfect low-slung proportions. Paldi, good observation on the Caddy motifs.

Oac sorry to hear about your wifes accident. Really glad to hear she was not hurt.

merc1 · June 2005

I was waiting on your comments. I think the design would be a lot better without those fenders too. Naturally darker colors help, but that is an excuse for a poor detail. Truly good looking cars aren't color-dependent.

I didn't expect you to think the S was a knockout design, because you don't even like the Aston-Martin DB9 so I don't know what it would take for a design to be a knockout in your book.

M

maxhonda99 · June 2005

Mercedes went from 110% perfect in terms of exterior styling for the current S-class to completely ugly in one year!!! Fire that designer!!!

designman · June 2005

"...I don't know what it would take for a design to be a knockout in your book."

Hmm, I thought my comments on the older DB7 although brief were quite favorable. Want me to be more effusive? That's the car I'd like to take to Wimbledon, from which I would tote my strawberries and cream, and bow to her friggin' majesty ;-)

designman · June 2005

Also, I may do a very favorable review of the Quattroporte. There are some really sweet lines on that baby.

robr2 · June 2005

Just crap about "driving people wild with envy" that would appeal to marginal people seeking acceptance. I thought the campaign was nuts.

A couple of ads I saw this week in both print and TV were the exact opposite. They talked about the thousands of patents that MB holds, the great engineering, the 111 year long track record, etc. etc.

Emotional versus Rational - the ads work on different people. You don't have to like the former - that's why they created the latter.

It's called marketing.

And I wouldn't be surprised that the majority of car sales are based on emotions instead of rationalization.

ljflx · June 2005

Unfortunately you can only go down from perfection or near perfection. That's what the 2003-2006 S was - IMO - design wise - particularly in sport trim. It's hard for me to imagine what this new car will look like in sports trim. The side and rear design just doesn't lend itself to it. The wheel arches - where did they come from and why - almost make the car look pregnant especially in SWB form. The trunk adds to this feeling. As far as I'm concerned Bangle is the guy to blame for these bulging car stylistic developments. Let's just call them the Bangle bulges. What happened to great symetry which is what the existing S has? This is not a car that will look good in swb - IMO. Side profile looks real bad. Looking angular from above and from front to rear (burgundy color photo) - car seems to retain enough of the current S to look good. But this and the front are probably its best views and again because it is more of the current design view. But that side profile looks bad. Maybe in person will be different but I have a feeling that wheel bulge will look worse in person. I agree with designman's view - it still works, but it's a big dropoff based on these photos. Door is wide open for Lexus.

Interior looks improved, and the DVD system in the headrest should be standard or available on all lux cars now. Lexus is going there as well with the new model and possibly the 2006 car from what I know.

It will be interesting to hear what an existing S-class owner or planned buyer thinks. Of course, merc1's views - after more careful analysis - will be very interesting reads.

Designman - I think that is a sport version of the LS that is posted. The standard car probably loses some or all of the low ground frame. But who knows for sure - they are promising a very agrressive car and based on these MB photos, it couldn't come at a better time for Lexus - assuming it's true.

lexusguy · June 2005

Also, I'm still not buying the column shifter. I didnt like it in the 7, and I dont like it in any of the new Benzes. Taxi cabs have column shifters. So do minivans. Cheap minivans. There's just nothing luxurious about a column shifter.

jstyle · June 2005

I've been talking to my dealer about going from my current E500 to the new S class and putting in a deposit for a purchase. I now know that I am very secure in my decision today to go with the 2006 Audi A8L....Perhaps not the most sporty design but nothing beats the interior and now with a bad 7series rip off interior the Audi looks incredible. It is even better priced with the rear seat entertaiment for the kids and all the options. Put the right wheels on and it is great looking.

I am very sad to say that my E500 is the last of the great looking Mercedes.

bobcatman · June 2005

Ahh, I guess the designers were lookin at the Mazda RX8 too much. Those fender flares are very similar to the racy RX8. Problem is that they look glued on like a cheap 33K GM SUV while the Mazda design just flows agressively integrated. The maroon one just looks tacky, too aggressive for overall shape. Oh well time for the big guns fromTokyo to clean up this next round ..That future Lexus sketch looks like it was done by a 6th grade designer-wannabe lol. I can assure all that it will look far better than that.

paldi · June 2005

Comparing the maroon photo to this Phaeton...

I think I like my big 2004 VW better. Just needs a 2006 update on the grill and wheels.

merc1 · June 2005

Well I'm not surprised that you don't like the new design. I'm not too big on it myself, but part of that is because I don't take car design changes too well, especially when the outgoing car was such a good looking design. I'll need to see the car in person before I can make a final judgement. I didn't like the CLS either until I saw it so there is still hope with me.

The reception to the new S-Class has been far warmer on other boards, but everyone is up in arms over those wheel arches, which to me are the only exterior flaw, or at least until I actually see the car. The interior quality looks to be on the level of Audi/VW, again this based only on looking at it.

That LS sketch - that honestly looks good to you? To me, again imo, looks like a Japanese Cadillac/Lincoln and is like totally forgettable like the 1995 LS. I think its far to early to base anything on such a sketch though.

M

merc1 · June 2005

Well I don't think they did it for style. German cars are about form following function and in such a class of car as the S/7 nobody is using the shifter anyway, so I personally don't see what the big deal is. Ditto for something like the M-Class. I would have a problem with an E-Class or 5-Series with a colum shifter, but on a S-Class, not a problem to me. It wasn't don't to be luxurious, it was done for function, plus they aren't nearly the same design as in a cheap minvan.

I wouldn't be surprised if Lexus does the same with the next LS. Am I reading correctly where they're coming up with a 7-speed tranny for the next LS too? Lexus might not do the Idrive/MMI/Comand Controller thing, but I wouldn't be surprised if the shifter moves.

M

pablo_l · June 2005

Add me to those who think it a very unimaginative and borderline clumsy design. The European design advatage fading fast with the current designers...

http://www.autobild.de/projektor/projektor.php?artikel_id=9008&pos=1

lexusguy · June 2005

I dont think it will. The big reason for the move in the Benzes was the knob controller right? (or the ML's "cup holders" while it waits for a knob) I would be shocked if Lexus went along with the iDrive bandwagon, and if there's no knob, I dont see a reason to move the shifter. What would an extra gear have anything to do with that? I'm expecting an interior similar to the style that the GS and now IS have started, just with an extra 500% dose of fancy powder. The traditional gated style shifter should be right where it always is.

merc1 · June 2005

Well we'll see. I asked about the tranny because they seem to be following Mercedes in more than one area, not anything to do with the shifter location.

M

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