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Audi A4 2004 and earlier

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Comments

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Audi has several driving schools that I know of, but only one that is 100% "North American."

    True, you start out in Munich, Germany and are taken by Audi AG to Ingolstadt where you eat lunch in the Audi Executive dining room with several English speaking VP's from Audi. Then you get a tour of the factory from rolls of steel, through the paint shop to the end of the line where the cars are driven off to be loaded for distribution. Then they take you to the Audi store where you can buy all kinds of stuff -- and a lot of it is not available in the US.

    After this, they take you about 3.5 hours south to a beautiful little hamlet called Seefeld Austria. You eat dinner with Audi driving instructors all of whom are professional (ex) race drivers. On day two you receive about 2 hours of classroom instruction then you get to drive the rest of the day and the entire following day.

    You are put through a wide variety of exercises in a completely closed area near Seefeld that has been flooded and frozen and smoothed to a super slick ice surface. Generally about 30 people (2 people per car) are divided into groups of 5 cars. You have one instructor dedicated to your group (and two Audi helper people).

    The exercises range from braking with and without ABS, inducing and recovering from understeer and oversteer, a circle wherein you get to drive one of the only two rear wheel drive Audis ever made (to show you the difference between quattro and RWD) -- power sliding and steering by throttle and then you get to put all the excercises together in a timed run.

    It is exciting, educational, fun and -- it could save your life.

    You stay in a "6 star" resort hotel (actually it is only a 5 star, but it is so fantastic you'll think it must be a 6 star -- if there is such a thing); you are fed three meals a day and you are served wine with dinner; on the evening of the second day, you are given a spectacular sleigh ride through the mountains (and the sleigh has runners, not wheels) followed by a private ride on ice at a very high speed, to demonstrate everything you have or will learn and to show you just how fast it can be done; you are entertained and fed constantly -- on the evening of the last day you are treated to a grand dinner, music and an award presentation wherein you are told who had the best timed run. Then you are given a certificate of completion and the following morning sent on your way to Munich or to continue your winter wonderland vacation just outside of Insbruck Austria or where ever you want to go (you are close to Germany, Switzerland and Italy).

    You get to drive brand new manual transmission Audi A4's (we drove 2002'a 2.5TurboD's this year in January). They are all top models with quattro and premium and sport options and they all have four studded snow tires. You often get personal instruction -- and they have an open radio in the car wherein the instructors can coach you while they stand outside and you drive.

    The trip to Munich in January is -- shhhhh --- a secret. It is from a tourist standpoint the best time of the year to go to this magic city (but I do so love Oktoberfest) because the crowds are thinner. This makes restaurants and museums (the German Smithsonian is is Munich -- the Deutches Museum) such as the BMW museum, Olymipic Park, Nyphemburg and the Alto Pineotek (I know this is misspelled) easy to see. You can even go to the place where Oktoberfest is held -- and the German beer halls never close so that is not a problem -- and again -- shhhh --- the restaurants in Munich are among the best in the world.

    Seefeld is "what heaven must look like in winter." And the trip to Ingolstadt is "way cool."

    The cost for all this is airfare (which from Cincinnati is about $550 round trip per person) + about $975, which includes 3 nights in a hotel, 8 first class meals including wine for dinner, the school and all materials. You own shopping and your before and after in Munich or where ever is, of course, at your expense.

    We usually go to Munich on Friday, arrive on Saturday, spend Saturday taking a nap and enjoying one of those great Munich restaurants, spend Sunday sightseeing, Sunday night meeting with your fellow drivers for dinner and then Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday in the "AudiAG cocoon." After breakfast on Thursday, Audi shuttles you to the Munich airport or you can hop on a train and within 1 - 8 hours be in any one of a number of wonderful European cities, in what is IMO, the best time of the year to visit Europe (we usually go to Verona or Venice -- again shhhh -- don't tell anyone, Venice is best in January and EVERYTHING in Venice is on sale then (70% off).

    One catch -- you must be a member of the quattro club of America -- which I think is $40.00 annually. This trip @ 2000DM is half price becuase AudiAG co-ops the rest for the quattro club of America.

    By the way the trip is generally sold out at least one or two years in advance and you must sign up for 2004 NOW (there MAY be some 2003 slots open). You must commit to this by the August of the year prior to your trip financially with a $500 non refundable deposit (which is about 50% of the trip's cost). I am going in January 2002 and it will be my fifth trip and again in 2003 -- I will be driving in the class in January 2003. If you go with someone, the cost for them to do EVERYTHING but the driving is $250.00 -- you can't beat it!

    End of report.
  • gymshoegymshoe Member Posts: 80
    Anyone buy one lately? What price and what options did you get for it?

    I guess to be fair to myself, I need to give the 1.8 a chance. I didn't like it much on the Passat I test drove last week, but the A4 is a different car.
  • fpereirafpereira Member Posts: 42
    Wow Mark, thanks very much for that extended report. It sounds great! That's definitely the kind of thing I'd like to do when in Europe. Thanks again!
  • cupholder1cupholder1 Member Posts: 231
    try it without the slush box. you'll love the 1.8T in manual.
  • drew37drew37 Member Posts: 62
    Does anyone know when we'll know if this sales tax holiday thing is really going to happen ?
  • datadogdatadog Member Posts: 27
    I'm sure it will since I just paid over $1,300 in sales taxes for my new A6!
  • cupholder1cupholder1 Member Posts: 231
    I think you can give up on that fantasy... the Democrats control the Senate. If anything, they will RAISE taxes.
  • gymshoegymshoe Member Posts: 80
    the car is for my wife..so it has to be a tiptronic. Kinda depressing how much time and energy i'm spending on this A4 shopping and all the crap i'm gonna have to put up with the dealers and stuff..and I'm barely going to be driving the car! heehhe...

    Well...going to go test drive a 2001 1.8T, a 99 2.8, and whatever else they got on the lot tomorrow morning. We'll see.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    This is not a sexist comment -- but since your wife and mine happen to be women, it may come off like one in some convoluted way.

    Here goes: "force the issue" of a long test drive of an A4 with a manual shift. The resistance, I found, to the manual was a perception that it would be clunky, and that she wouldn't be smooth or that she couldn't "hold it" on a hill at a stop light and drive off without burning the clutch, grinding the gears, stalling out or single handedly being the cause of honking horns, gnashing teeth and rude finger gestures. Once she got over the INITIAL stall or two -- there never was any grinding -- she came to love a manual transmission as much as, if not more, than any man I have ever known (there was the potentially offending remark, for those of you who missed it).

    An Audi A4 1.8T is a BLAST with a stick shift, as is it's V6 sibling -- the character of the car is somehow different with the auto transmission -- less sporting, somewhat less engaging and less fun.

    Remeber the first time you had -- fill in the blank -- (coffee, beer, wine, brandy or perhaps lobster?) and you knew you wouldn't like it? For those not brought up on a stick shift, there is an absolute hook in there for them -- perhaps it is at 10 miles, perhaps a 1,000 -- but my wife virtually refuses to drive my A6 4.2 sport packaged Audi -- 'cause it has an "old man's" transmission -- she is 47 and I am 50. She has had several Audi A4's and two TT's -- the latest one with a 6spd manual. Heck -- she practically won't ride in a car with an auto now -- she's become a stick shift "snob."

    Advice -- don't say anything critical on the test drive of the stick shift car -- and don't YOU try to teach her. The really good Audi sales people will teach her with pleasure
  • fpereirafpereira Member Posts: 42
    I agree 100% with Mark's comment that an automatic transmission somehow changes the nature of a car. Even the automatic BMW 328i I drove felt like a GM car: I'm not exaggerating. The throttle, sound, and dynamics of the car are different. Not to mention the torque of the BMW 2.8L six just being sucked away by the slushbox. Oh the humanity! :-)

    I have an additional piece of advice for you gymshoe: ask your wife to "just try" a stick shift, ride with her, and comment that she has an undeveloped natural talent for driving a stick. But don't blame me if you end up sleeping in the garage next week!

    The coffee/beer/wine thing is a great comparison to make; if you don't yet love stick shifts/c/b/w, there's an untapped world of pleasure waiting for you.
  • black_tulipblack_tulip Member Posts: 435
    "Even the automatic BMW 328i I drove felt like a GM car:... "

    That's probably because BMW buys the auto transmissions from GM.
  • subframe1subframe1 Member Posts: 8
    Just test drove the '02 1.8T with manual, quattro and sport package. Great looking car. Great handling. Blast to drive. Despite the increased size over '01, though, still one of the smallest interiors in its class. (Anyone know of a good aftermarket cupholder that works in an '02? Factory ones look pretty suspect.)
  • keninplacitaskeninplacitas Member Posts: 120
    If you want great looking, great handling, great reliability, excellent interior space, and the finest cupholder of them all, try the Saab 9-5.

    If you're looking for a car that's a blast to drive with the best all-wheel-drive available, then the A4 1.8T Quatro is the car for you.

    By the way, you're the first person I've heard anywhere on these forums knock the '02 A4 cupholders. What did you find about them that was bad?
  • fpereirafpereira Member Posts: 42
    The 4-speeds were from GM; but this was a 5-speed automatic from ZF :-)
  • vicsa4vicsa4 Member Posts: 5
    I've got leather seats and a power driver's seat in my current 1999 A4, 2.8 quattro. My lease expires in January and, as much as I love the car, I'm probably going to lease a new 2002 Audi A4.
    I didn't see much of a difference in driving the new 1.8T manual compared to the 3.0 manual.
    However, you can't get power seats or leather as options with the 1.8T.
    Would I be making a big mistake by buying the 1.8T and getting the manually adjusted leatherette seats vs. paying the extra money for the 3.0 in order to get the power adjusted leather seats? Would anyone with leatherette seats care to say how they like them (or dislike them?).
    Thanks!

    P.S.: My wife asked me to check out the BMW 325xi, just to consider a different brand for the heck of it. She thinks the BMW seats are more comfortable than the Audi seats.
    The BMW sales people said that the 68/32 rear/front power ratio in the BMW 325xi AWD system is better than the Audi quattro 50/50 rear/front power split. They say it makes the BMW handle more like a sportscar than the Audi.
    Is there any truth to this? My goal is to pick a sporty car with the best AWD system to make it through the winter safely. Is Audi's quattro better than BMW's AWD? Or are they both "good enough"? Are any differences not worth quibbling over?
  • drc4drc4 Member Posts: 56
    I've always had power leather seats in my previous cars and although I was skeptical about leatherette in the 1.8Ts, I went ahead and leased a 2000 1.8T. I thought I'd hate the manual adjustable seats, and though they have their drawbacks, it hasn't been too big a deal. Once I get the driver seat positioning set, it stays that way. When I take the car in for its scheduled maintenance I always request the seat position not be changed, and so far my request has been honored. The height adjustment is pretty easy, although to raise the seat while you're driving, you have to exert a downward force with your legs & feet while lifting up your rear end, which isn't the safest thing to do while driving. On long trips when I want to change the seating position a bit, I'd definitely prefer auto seats!! I also don't like the inconvenient round knob that adjusts the seat back angle. My Mom's Camry has the same thing and it's a pain to use....especially while you're sitting in the seat. It's nearly impossible to operate safely while driving. I don't know if they've changed this on 01 or 02 models or not.

    The leatherette is comfortable, but if you get the ecru color and wear jeans a lot (especially new ones that haven't been washed much) or a new shirt that hasn't been washed enough, etc, they're hard to keep clean. I wear old jeans most of the time and my driver seat is now permanently marred with darker areas that can't be cleaned, especially on the lower outer seat lip from my left leg as I exit the car. I've tried every cleaner in the world with no success. My dealer said it's a common "normal wear and tear" thing. Mine's a 2000 A4 with only 15K mi on it, and the driver seat is starting to look used. My last vehicle had light colored custom leather seats and I never had that problem. They were a breeze to keep clean. I'm in the process right now of trying to get Audi to replace my driver seat.

    If you get leatherette, go with either black or gray. I actually prefer the 1.8T over the 3.0, and it's a shame Audi doesn't offer leather in them. Pretty ridiculous in such an upscale nameplate. Hey Audi....hold the wood and chrome window trim on the 1.8Ts, but give us a leather option!!!!

    As for AWD, remember Audi's quattro has been a proven, reliable system that's been around for many years. They've perfected it. AWD on production vehicles is new to BMW and the sales people can say what they want, but I'd stick with a proven system. I've owned BMWs and they have enough mechanical issues without adding AWD to the mix. My 1.8T is quattro and trust me, you'll make it through the winter very safely, reliably, and have a great driving experience in the process.

    DRC4
  • fpereirafpereira Member Posts: 42
    Audi's quattro is widely regarded as the best. Mercedes (4matic) and BMW have come up with something different. MBZ use a complicated system now which I don't really understand. I don't know what BMW uses (cheapo viscous coupling?), but it's different from quattro.

    quattro IV uses the Torsen differential to distribute torque between front and rear. Normally at 50/50, the T-diff automagically reacts to torque loss *before* wheel-spin occurs, and adjusts torque to the wheels with traction.

    The fact that both Audi's and BMW's systems distribute the drive load in the first place makes them both very useful in slippery conditions. But Audi's 50/50 +Torsen is a superior system because of the way it adapts before wheelspin occurs.

    The Jaguar X-type, MBZ SUV, and transverse VW/Audi's (e.g. the TT) use viscous-coupling, a cheaper system which waits for a small amount of wheel slippage before adjusting the torque. There are sometimes issues with how these systems interact with the ABS system, so in some systems there's an extra clutch to disengage AWD when the brake pedal is pressed.
  • gymshoegymshoe Member Posts: 80
    To all those who told me to try out the 2002 1.8T before buying the 99 2.8 ....i have one thing to say to you...LOOK WHAT YOU DID TO ME!
    I just put a deposit down for a 02 1.8T...and i haven't even driven it yet! hahaha
    the deposit is refundable...pending how i like the car when it actually gets to the dealer...
    but i'm 98% sure i'm sold on it. Just gotta negotiate a good price for it. But dang
    the car looks absolutely SWEEEET!
    the sports package 17" wheels....OMG!
    OMG! ....did you hear me?!?! OMG!
    okay...ahh...even if i don't think the 1.8T is enough power...i'll MAKE myself believe it has enough power!....well..it's for my wife, so i'll doubt i'll have much chance to drive it...but ahhhhhhhh...
    what have a I done?!?!?!
    what have a I done?!?!?

    =)
  • scirocco22scirocco22 Member Posts: 721
    James-- You should be 99.99% sure that you're sold on it! I bet you'll like that engine as much as most of us who have it once you get used to it ...it's reliable, gets great gas mileage and is easily "tunable." You don't want your wife street racing anyway, do you?? :P

    Congratulations!

    I just e-mailed you.

    --'rocco
  • merckxmerckx Member Posts: 565
    Saw the new A4 at an auto show Friday.Although the back seat is appreciably bigger,it still is far less roomy than a Passat.I don't think I could get past that.And I do like the V'Dub's exterior better.
    Audis are getting known for the beauty of their interiors,though,and the A4 is no exception.It really is beautiful.And I was very much amazed at the quality of the vinyl seats.By far the best,BWM and Merc included,I've evey seen.As vinyl wears MUCH better than leather,I wouldn't hesitate a second to get them.
  • nitpickernitpicker Member Posts: 89
    I've been so busy, it's been tough to keep up with these postings, but I did want to respond to some earlier postings where people asked availability of 2001s. The dealer that I bought my 2001 from, Blue Grass Motorsport in Louisville, Ky., has five 2001s left. You can check out the inventory at www.bluegrassauto.com.
    BTW, if you end up buying a car from them and wouldn't mind posting your e-mail address here, I'd like to send you my name so you can tell them I referred you, if you wouldn't mind. And no, I'm not getting kickbacks. :) Let us know the details about the car you buy....
  • scirocco22scirocco22 Member Posts: 721
    I just noticed my e-mail server is down so I don't know if you received my message or not so I'll post it here:

    James--

    *lol* ...I just read your post on Edmunds! You're not too excited, are you?? But congratulations! Don't worry, you're making the right decision. The new A4 is definitely a beautiful car. I wish more and more that I had one. And it'll have plenty of power ...the only difference you'll actually feel is that you'll have to keep the revs up to utilize its power and to get into the turbo as opposed to the 3.0 where you'd feel the low end torque right off the line. Even if you're disappointed in the power (which I don't think you will be) you can always chip it later for less than $700 to get the hp above 200.

    You have to remember that I bought mine back in March so it's the "old" 1.8T model *looks dejected* ...so I don't think you can use my deal as a reference as much as you could Kelly's ...and even then, traditionally, the 1.8T is more difficult to get a big discount because of its popularity over the 6-cylinder model. The 2002 model is so much in demand right now that I doubt that they'll budge too much in price as if you waited until the initial uniqueness wears off a bit. Although $2,000-2,200 over invoice was the standard starting point even on the old model back in March, I was only able to get it for $1,400 over by pitting one dealer against the other ...I don't think you could do that now because like the guy at UVA told me, if I wasn't willing to pay that price then someone else will. That would seem to apply even more right now on the new model because the demand is so great. Even though people in some parts of the country are reporting getting the 1.8T for $800 over invoice, I seriously doubt that you'd be able to get it in the Seattle area for that price. I believe (in my humble opinion only) that you'll be doing very well if you could get a deal similar to Kelly's at somewhere around xxxx over.

    And don't let them bamboozle you into thinking that by taking the Costco program discount that it is the best they can do! I went through that routine when I was negotiating to buy a Jetta. If you agree to take the Costco discount then they act like no further negotiation is necessary ...that because you're getting it on the "Costco pricing plan" that you're getting some kind of a super deal. All the Costco program does is require the dealer to sell the car at a certain agreed upon amount off MSRP (or amount-over-invoice) which is almost always --no, delete the "almost" and make that ALWAYS less than what you can negotiate yourself. In-other-words, they'll make it look like they are giving you an additional $500 discount but you can negotiate substantially more than that amount on your own. So really it is irrelevant ...I disregarded it altogether. That goes for any similar programs: AAA, CarPoint, certain credit union programs, etc.

    The thing that bothered me about Barrier is their requirement of the 10% cash deposit. Most other dealers require only $500-1,000. I was able to put the $500 "deposit" (or earnest money to show good faith) on a credit card at both UVA and Roger Jobs. Putting it on a credit card is recommended by carbuyingtips.com and others but Barrier would accept only cash and the huge 10% figure. It was a little disconcerting to me at the time that Barrier required this but I did it (of course I did it, they wouldn't talk to me further until I did *lol*) because I figured they were such an up-scale prestigious dealership ...and they also required me to request in writing to get it back when my deal fell through there.

    I'll keep my fingers crossed for the both you and Kelly on that sales tax exemption period passing. That'll be such a great feeling to save the sales tax on such a big ticket item as a car.

    Btw, you'll love the Xenon lights; I didn't like them at first but now I don't know if could buy another car without them!

    Again, congratulations and good luck, James! ...keep us posted!

    --'rocco


    ...I x'd out the figure in the second paragraph just in case Kelly doesn't want that revealed.

    Karen-- Hi! *waves* ...how ya been??

    --'rocco
  • bluetranebluetrane Member Posts: 67
    Sorry if I'm breaching protocol by posting this in the Sedan forum (new to this board and to Edmunds), but this area looks to be much more highly trafficked than the Wagon board. I have a Mercedes ML320 coming off lease in a few months, and I am considering a wagon to replace it. I realize that the A4 wagon has been redesigned somewhat, but I'm hoping a current Avant owner can help me out.

    Specifically, I am a little concerned about overall room and cargo carrying. Most of my driving is solo, but I do need to transport my wife and two small kids often, occasionally I would like 2 adults in back. The ML is a roomy beast.

    I will also be looking at the Passat wagon, the BMW 325 wagon, Toyota Highlander, and Lexus RX300 (I've fallen for 4 wheel drive and don't care to live without it again). Does anyone have any head-to-head experience between any of the models and the A4 Avant?

    Thanks in advance!
  • nitpickernitpicker Member Posts: 89
    Hey, Rocco! *waves back* -- I've been up to my ears in work; haven't had much time lately to enjoy the A4. :( Every time I see a Forester on the road I wonder if you're liking yours any better. We're fast approaching the season when you should be able to put it and the A4 to the test. You'll have to give us a full comparison report!
  • jm5626jm5626 Member Posts: 1
    Unless most of you guys who are complaining about the A4's lack of space plan on letting someone else drive while you are in the back seat I don't see what the issue is. Everyone is saying that this car is so much smaller than the Passat inside. My wife drives a new 2001.5 Passat and I can say that you guys are splitting hairs when it comes to the differences in "usable" interior space between the A4 and the Passat. Especially for the driver. I'm 6'2" and the Passat's front seat definitely does not provide ample leg room. I sat in an A4 this weekend and there was room left to spare for me to get in to a "TRULY" comfortable driving position. If you guys are looking for huge back seats to haul passengers or anything else you may be looking at the wrong vehicle.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Here in Cincinnati, the VW and Audi dealers have a "relationship" with a conversion company. The conversion from either cloth to leather or leatherette to leather is possible for about $1,000. You have to go to a special company that understands the in-seat airbag technology, and to my knowlege there is only one in Cincinnat that can pull off the transformation from leatherette to leather (and you can have the head rests or the top of the front seat backs embossed with the four rings -- the one I saw was a medium gray leather and it looked "factory original." Yet, I would rather have the power seat, personally -- the leatherette in the 2001's is (Opal Grey) is very nice and is "almost" leather in the way it behaves.

    I agree with the postings that lobby Audi for more options on the 1.8T -- in Europe the nav system is avail on the 1.8T as is leather and other options that we can't get here on the 1.8.

    Perhaps, though, there would be fewer 3.0's sold as anyone who has ever driven a (manual transmission) 1.8T with sport and Bose and Xenons etc back to back with the 2.8 (now perhaps the 3.0) will fancy the 1.8 as a major major bargain and in some respects, the 1.8 feels quicker.

    Anyway -- until the new S4 comes out, I would want AoA to bring a 1.8T with ALL options available to our shores. The 1.8T, generally speaking, would be my choice -- for the money.
  • brave1heartbrave1heart Member Posts: 2,698
    As a consumer, you are right to demand all 3.0 options on the 1.8T. As a manufacturer, Audi AG may not be willing to do it because the U.S. market is too small for them (only 21-22K A4's sold a year nationwide). Standardizing options improves their bottom line. I seriously doubt that a lot of the consumers opting for the 1.8T would pay for the leather if it were an option. That, coupled with the fact that the 1.8T would be cannibalizing more 3.0 sales where the profit margin is likely higher, would make it very unlikely that you'll see all the options across the whole A4 product line in the U.S.
  • spike66spike66 Member Posts: 20
    If roominess is a factor, don't overlook the Allroad!
  • peterpan2peterpan2 Member Posts: 11
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    If the 1.8T had leather as an "option" -- wouldn't those that are willing to have the aftermarket conversion done, generally speaking, spend their money with Audi instead? -- and as I watched the A4's go down the assembly line in Ingolstadt, it sure looked like they could mount any seat they wanted into any of the frames creeping down the line -- picking up a black leather, power sport seat instead of a black leatherette vinyl sport seat with out power doesn't look like labor costs would be a factor. And, anyway, they are already doing this in Europe -- it is possible to order a 1.8T with EVERYTHING or a more spartan 3.0. The choices are greater, that is all.

    Yet, I do agree Christo, AoA will probably NOT allow all options to be made available on the 1.8T -- but, IMO, they could increase their revenue and profit on this car by making all options available for US customers.
  • 02a4curt02a4curt Member Posts: 35
  • gymshoegymshoe Member Posts: 80
    In My Opinion

    or IMHO
    In My Honest Opinion
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    hmm... IMHO has always meant "in my humble opinion" to me. :-)
  • 02a4curt02a4curt Member Posts: 35
    I take it then "OEM" stands for Original Equipment Manufacturer. Maybe that is the abreviation that caused my confusion....one of those "senior moments."
  • barresa62barresa62 Member Posts: 1,379
    Sorry, couldn't resist. :-)
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    BTW: the H stands for Humble IMO. And BTW is by the way.

    H2G

    BB
  • keninplacitaskeninplacitas Member Posts: 120
    You may want to bookmark acronymfinder.com.

    By the way, I picked up my new A4 1.8t Quatro with sunroof and Bose today. Yayyy!
  • brave1heartbrave1heart Member Posts: 2,698
    What's H2G and BB?

    In Europe where the A4 volume is much higher, you can buy the A4 in a few more engine configurations as well (you could last year at least). I also suspect that the profit margins on options are significantly higher but every option offered carries a fixed cost (even if it's only administering the program) and you need volume to make up for that. This is one of the reasons M-B does not offer manuals for most of its models in the U.S. If only 5-10% of the buyers get those, they would not be making a lot of money on those configurations.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    have to go? bye bye?

    JMG

    (just my guess)

    :-)
  • gymshoegymshoe Member Posts: 80
    what was I thinking?

    KENINPLACITAS - what did you get? color? equip?
    so...i'm shopping for an '02 A4 1.8T quattro. I'm trying to figure out what's a good price.
    Would you say $1500 off MSRP? $1000 off MSRP?
    What kinda deal did you get?
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I read here and elsewhere the CRY for manual transmissions -- I am one of the crybabies.

    I ask to buy/lease a manual tranny Audi. Not many choices, if you want a V8 -- tis either auto or auto.

    Only 1 in 4 of the S4's at the local dealers here in Cincinnati are manual -- but they don't have "much call" for the stick shift.

    I asked to test drive a stick allroad -- none in stock -- but at least today, it is possible to order one (hopefully they will keep the option of a stick alive).

    My friend bought a new BMW -- 5 series (admittedly off the lot) and he said they ONLY had autos, even though he really wanted a stick.

    Perhaps -- and this is a big perhaps -- more stick shifts could be sold, but in this shop for it today, drive it home today world -- well those that want stick shifts are "forced" to buy autos or wait 4+ months and some of us who would pay $1,000 more for a stick (and they charge the other way around) end up taking what is offered, just to have the car (the Audi).

    What next an auto in a TT? What next NO sticks period in A4's? I know it is supposedly "the market" but sometimes it feels like a "if you can't beat them join them kind of thing" rather than a true representation of customer's demands.

    Sigh.

    BB = bye bye

    H2G = have to go

    G2R = got to run

    EMS = Bart Simpson
  • keninplacitaskeninplacitas Member Posts: 120
    First of all, I worked hard and long to prepare my negotiation approach to buying this car (A4 1.8T Quatro w/ Sunroof & Bose). Emphasis was on getting the best possible trade-in from my 'old' car (the delta between old and new was key). For this, I wasn't very optimistic considering earlier conversations with the dealer and newspaper article headlines like: "Prices Plunge on Trade-Ins - Zero Percent Financing Filling the Used-Car Lots". So, I set up a table that showed, for instance, "if they'll only give me $X for my trade-in, they must give me a $Y discount on my new car or I walk out" (or vice versa).

    Well, to start with, they offered significantly more for my trade-in than I expected them to, so by the time we were stonewalled at ~$500 under MSRP I just gave in rather than fight for more. I got $19,750 for my 2000 1.8T and paid $28,745 for the new car. I handed them a check for the difference along with my 'old' car title and drove away - no added fees (additionally, I'll have to pay license transfer fees and ~$280 in taxes to DMV when I get all paperwork back from the dealer).
  • 02a4curt02a4curt Member Posts: 35
    I've always taken the approach to not even talk trade-in until a price is agreed to for the new car. First arrive at an agreement for the new car price, then talk trade-in. This way you will have a better idea how much you actually paid for the new car and how much you received for your trade in by keeping the two transactions separate. If the dealer knows your goal is to get a high trade in, he will accomodate you quite well, then stick very close to MSRP on the new car.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I can only assume that you folks are NOT leasing. My Audi dealer says the percentage of those who lease Audi's continues to climb -- it is so rare that his customers "buy" cars.

    I have heard that leasing is the ONLY sensible alternative to paying cash, unless of course you can get a loan of 0% -- which does happen, but not on Audi's.

    In this economy -- if that is a factor -- would someone please run through the reasons (aside from zero percent financing) for buying (assuming 15k miles a year) versus leasing.

    One of my clients is Honda Motors, and they have been having a great year and they are purchasing another new computer (which does depreciate similarly to cars) -- they lease them, when they could clearly pay cash (is this an expense versus capital expendature kind of thing? -- and how does that apply to consumers?)

    I have always leased and felt it was "prudent" -- your discussions have made me wonder. . .

    Thanks for your "economic" and/or "financial" opinions.
  • cupholder1cupholder1 Member Posts: 231
    this topic seems to be discussed quite a bit... but basically, it comes down to this: if you drive under 15k miles a year, and you like to get a new car every 3 years or so, you're better off leasing.

    If you drive a lot, or like to keep your car until it falls apart like at the end of the Blues Brothers, then buying is definitely more economical. However, studies indicate that the avg. person trades in every few years.
  • datadogdatadog Member Posts: 27
    The numbers just don't work for me. I put an average of 22,000 miles per year on my A4. I sure would have liked to get some of that 0.0% financing though, but cash is the only way to go for me. I trade between 3 and 4 years, usually closer to 4. Since I bought an A6 I will probably put more miles on it since I can actually take four adults somewhere (I may end up regretting that aspect of more space).
  • aegus1aegus1 Member Posts: 29
    As a 'buyer' I figured I should respond, since we do seem in the minority. (Avanteers also)

    I have never leased. I generally drive 15k to 20k miles a year. Good cars I keep. Losers I try to unload while they're still worth good money.

    The mileage thing is a big hurdle to leasing. The cost of depreciation when swapping cars every 3 years would definitely be a leasing strong point. But I think you're still paying a good percentage of that depreciation in your lease payment. I save for a considerable down payment so my monthly payments are lower that most lease payments. You also have to consider what you'd be doing with that money otherwise. Currently nothing is earning great interest and the market is going sideways. Audi gave me 3.9 financing when the car came in. That's not 0%, but definitely way below bank rates.

    It's not a right or wrong issue. I see it at as Chocolate vs Vanilla. An important thing is also being comfortable with how you spend your money.

    Just MHO and my $.02.

    -Barry
  • fpereirafpereira Member Posts: 42
    Businesses lease stuff because they (think they) have something better to do with their cash, e.g., throw it into their business. A typical growing company has cash flow to consider.

    If you can get a higher ROI on your cash (minus income/captial gains tax) than your loan rate, then a loan is a good idea.
    Most people take loans because they can't afford what they're buying. Some people who are in a stratospheric tax bracket take loans on houses never intending to pay it off, in order to deduct the most from their mortgage.

    Leasing would seem to be a kind of turbo loan, but frankly, considering that you still pay tax+title up front, plus probably some cash down, I don't see the advertised lease payments being very attractive. I mean, you can't lease a 330Ci for less than $300 a month...can you? (I'm just asking here, I don't know.)

    I think of paying cash for a car as a kind of hedge against equity prices :-)
  • brave1heartbrave1heart Member Posts: 2,698
    Only 1 in 4 or 5 3-series is leased. I'd be guessing A4 numbers are very similar. Don't let the salespeople convince you that leasing is more advantageous. There are situations when it might be but those are generally rare. Businesses lease instead of buying because of enormous tax advantages. Dealers make more money off leasing and would have you believe that it's good for you too. For the average retail buyer, financing generally makes the most sense.
  • kk13kk13 Member Posts: 30
    You can run some of the lease vs buy calculators, but the basic economics are very similar. Depending on many factors such as finance rate, residual, money factor, etc there are slight differences. To me the basic questions are:

    * Can you afford the payments?

    * Do you like to have flexibility in when you trade to a new car?

    * Do you drive close to one of the standard mileage allowances (10k, 12k, 15k, etc) and is this likely to change during the lease period. You overpay the monthly if you end up driving much less and you get hit with penalties if you drive way over. Things like changing jobs or homes could have a big effect.

    * Do you like to convenience of turning a car in instead of selling? You can easily trade-in which is more hassle and worse financially then selling the car yourself but in my calculations is similar to leasing.

    * Would you incur excessive wear and tear charges?
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