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Comments
Somewhat later a W12 will be found in a new, larger VW called (so far) a D1. The D1 seems very close to the A8 -- but for that matter, the VW W8 car seems (price and somewhat class-wise) like it will compete with Audi. The W8 engine will be in the US in what is essentially a Passat, more luxurious, AWD, ESP, etc. $40k+ pricing. The W8 will be avail with auto-only in the US (according to Road & Track). The W8 will not be the same engine as the V8 that Audi currently offers. 3.7 liters as I recall, less than 300hp (270 or 280, I think). The beginning of the upmarket push for VW.
The announced (by VW) marketing scheme is something like this:
VW will "compete" with Mercedes, providing everything and more that Mercedes provides + all-wheel-drive for at least 20% fewer $'s.
Audi will [continue to] "compete" with BMW, providing a more sport luxury approach than VW, which will be more "traditional" luxury.
I believe (in the US at least) the approach will be to offer very high "content" for dollars in the VW familiy, and "higher capabilities" (boy will this tick-off some BMW-philes, I'm sure) than BMW for similar dollars in the Audi family.
BMW's apparent counter-attack is to add more technology and spread AWD across the line -- as BMW certainly must feel that it competes with both Audi and Mercedes (and perhaps at some levels with VW even here in the US -- with more competition coming from VW what with the new power trains and all).
Competition, from the consumer's point of view will certainly make 2002 and beyond very interesting, to say the least.
Ready, aim, SHOP!
Anyways, I noticed alot of people on this board own/went with the 1.8T. Just curious as to why... it there any reason besides the obvious of saving a few thousand? It definately has some zip at 170hp, but it still pales to what my GS-T Eclipse had at 210hp. Since I'm looking for comparable speeds, the 3.0 may be the only option for me. And for those who went with the A4, what deterred you from the Suburu WRX, which has more speed but several thousand less??
I'm not looking to buy for several months, so I'll be lurking on this board to see what some owners of a new 2002 A4 have to say.. so please voice your opinions!
Also, curious to what you're paying under MSRP for them. Here at Edmunds the "TMV" is only $200 under MSRP.. yikes! Not much room there for haggling. I've noticed a few people here got some better deals, just curious if that's the exception and not the rule.
Thanks in advance for the great info..
Test reports indicate the Subaru can best the Audi S4 (which costs $40k). Any Audi is more refined. The Subaru will not be in any way a bad choice, based on test reports. Ground beef is not Filet Mignon -- or some other analogy.
I love hamburgers -- I also am fond of Filet.
Test drive each -- based on what I have read, you will not drive away unhappy with either one. They are not similar as far as I can tell, but so far, the drag strip champ is the Subaru.
I would personally go for the Audi in a heartbeat.
I respect the performance of the Subaru, however.
To each his/her own.
I don't understand why VW will go after Mercedes, since my understanding was that Mercedes was trying to catch up with BMW by making their cars a little more sporting. The article said VW fears losing the family car buyers as they go off the top of VW's line.
BMW seems to be the leader in the brand-polish department, having an excellent reputation, heritage, and focused image on driving fun and sport. However, BMW may now be losing their way; Chris Bangle is doing some weird stuff... we'll just have to see how the new models turn out.
I understood from the BW article that Audi outsold BMW in Germany last year, and that Audi was the most profitable division for VW. Is that right?
And about the Edmunds TMV, well I chatted with a dealer guy in Ithaca, NY and he was willing to deal at $750 under MSRP.....and I believe in Chicago people got even better deals. Shop around......we in Chicago got 7 Audi dealerships and I'm sure they'll be willing to deal.
LOL Mark, I like that analogy of filet and burgers. Definitely true.....I crave for filet when I want silky smooth performance, and I crave burgers when I wanna smoke some tires.
Billy
Audi has outsold BMW for "several" (3 I think) years in a row -- in Germany. The fact that Audi has (until recently) run well-behind BMW in the US confounds the Germans, as they "assume" that Audi should handily beat BMW in the US since Audis cost less than BMW's. In Germany Audis are not less costly than BMW's -- so their sales supremacy is even more impressive.
Anyway, Audi is also very proud of another "fact" -- the Audi A8 is as or more crashworthy than the Mercedes S class. Audi showed us a "crash test" video of Audi vs Mercedes -- they made certain we knew that it was not advertising. Comparison advertising, which we take for granted, is not allowed in Germany.
So, Audi told us that they outsold BMW (for years) in Germany and had cars that equalled or bettered Mercedes in crashworthyness. Then, when one of our group mentioned that they also owned a Passat and told the Audi exec that he had nick named his Passat an Audi A5, the Audi exec bristled and made certain that we all knew that Audis competed against VW's -- and that VW's always took Audi's "hand me downs" or that VW outright used the Audi engineers development.
At the very least, it appeared as if there was sibling rivalry, at most it was a "how dare you compare an Audi to a VW."
Historically it has seemed to me that test reports (here in the US) focus on comparisons of cars from Audi and BMW that were "classed" the same rather than cars that were priced similarly.
A case in point, the Audi A6 4.2 is generally compared to the BMW 540 but it has been priced closer to the BMW 530. The rationale must be that a V8 should be compared to a V8 -- cost be damned.
I asked a friend of mine to shop for cars and to include an A6 2.7T in the mix -- and consider content, performance and price. He drove a Lexus, an Infiniti and a BMW before the 2.7T -- he claimed that the Audi performed better than all of the cars he tested, had better content than the BMW, but not quite as much as the Japanese cars and that the Audi could be had for significantly less money. He said he was almost totally sold on the BMW (5) prior to driving the Audi. Plus he thought the fact that it was a quattro was like a secret weapon.
Anyway -- sorry for the long post, but Audi seems to be still recovering from some leftover perception problems in the US -- but hardly in its homeland.
Anyone know when the next gen S4 is coming to the US?
I asked myself what I really wanted in a car other than good handling, power, and being "attractive". The answer was that I need leather, a sun roof, and outside temperature gauge. The WRX is a great car but doesn't have these. It is equipped as a "low end" car.
I drove the A4 1.8T Quatro Tip and it has all of these plus more and is better looking than the WRX. The 1.8 is not what I would call fast but it is quick. I can live with the limited passing power of the A4 and marvel at what it can do with those 1800 cc. Before the A4 I had a Z-28 Camaro and a 300M so I do know about passing power.
I am really pleased with the A4 because, on balance, it has everything I want at a reasonable price. Your mileage may vary.
Many say that they don't want to "go back" to a manual transmission. Then, they drive the A4 with quattro and a manual (and this applies to the 3.0 and the 2.5TD as well as the 1.8T).
They are converted after a back to back test drive (of the Tip vs the manual).
Some of the 1.8T people, then "go nuts" and make a few, relatively inexpensive upgrades to their A4's and then they are forever hooked: a relatively mild stage 1 chip for the engine, plus zero or perhaps even plus one tire upgrade (not needed with the A4 2002 sport option which includes 17" whee/tires), sport air filters, cat back exhaust systems and various and sundry air spoiling systems ranging from a rear deck-lid spoiler (Audi) to full-on ground effects from an Audi "partner" -- e.g., Joe Hoppen Motorsports amongst many others, to uprated brakes and improved audio systems.
Some even go all the way with new turbos and "heavy duty" everthing.
All of this in an Audi which still retains refinement, features & functions that enhance performance (standard) and the Audi "sport luxury" characteristics.
I'd better stop before I drool.
Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board
-brian
Seriously, I own a 1997 A4 and it bores me to tears. I used to be so proud of its fine appointments, but in the end, styling is just that, it's just skin deep. I used to brag how the materials/plastics in the Audi were higher quality, but now I don't even notice. As a driver, the Subaru's sportier nature will continue to reward me well into the future, that's something I'll notice every day. Don't get me wrong, the Audi is nicely appointed, but in the end, its how the car drives which will form the basis of a long term relationship.
And also, I'm find that maintaining the Audi past the four year mark is getting mighty expensive. My front control arms need replacing (due to premature wear due to a design defect) and it's costing me $2000 Cdn ($1300 USD). No wonder people lease these cars and return them after four years. My personal experience with my own car would lead me to believe that it's not as reliable as your typical Subaru. Your mileage may vary of course, but it's unlikely I'll buy another Audi ever again based on what I know now.
Stephen
Here's my predictions for both the WRX and A4 in 10 years.
The WRX styling, both interior and exterior is very.....youthful and racy. The huge....sorry, the HUGE headlight/foglights is not very good looking. It's a very small car. Not a very good people hauler. The interior/exterior styling of the WRX will go out of date looong before 10 years is up. I have no clue on it's reliability so I won't comment.
The A4 has one of those long lasting looks. Even the old A4 styling still looked sharp and modern when it was almost a decade old look. It looks sharp and classy where both young and old can appreciate. My cousin of 17 thinks the A4 looks sweet, my parents friends of retirement age thinks it looks sweet. The same cannot be said of the WRX.
If you're looking for a car strictly for racing and performance, by all means, please buy a WRX. If you want a sliver of elegance, refinement, or classic coolness, you should consider the A4.
I can't stand the looks of the WRX, my friend has one, and I've looked at it over and over and over and over, and I still can't see what he sees in it.
Last time I checked, the back seat of the WRX has *more* legroom than my 97 A4. The backseat room of the A4 is just plain pitiful and the new one isn't that much better. If you're looking for a people hauler, I suggest you look elsewhere.
"I have no clue on it's reliability so I won't comment"
Precisely, I predict that by the time the 10 years is up, I would have spent far more on maintenance. As I said, I have to replace my expensive control arms (my car has only 42000 mi) because it's a wear item. Likely I will have to do it again in four years. Add to that a bunch of other things that broke (steering leak, power mirrors, numerous buzzes in the dash), that will take the fun out of owning it very fast. I was shocked to find out a tube of touch up paint cost $20 Canadian (vs $6.60 for the Subaru one). Nobody claimed the Audi is Toyota reliable, but my advice to all, lease that A4 and return it after 4 years. Who cares if it looks good when it's a money pit?
"Even the old A4 styling still looked sharp and modern when it was almost a decade old look"
Again everybody is hung up on looks. I'm saying, in a few years, who cares. I'm bored of my A4 and its "coolness" isn't making me want to go out a drive it.
Guys, I still like my A4, but having owned an Audi for five years, I didn't think it was worth it. High cost of maintenance after warranty, excessive number of trips to the dealer and lackluster performance for the dollar has soured the experience. I no longer recommend Audis to my friends. If I wanted a luxury sports sedan, I'd be marching down to my BMW/Lexus dealer. I realize I may be setting up myself for flames, but I've been there already (own an A4) and this is just the way I feel. I used to defend the A4 with all my might using all the same arguments you guys are using against the WRX, but in the end, I take it all back.
Your 94 Honda was stolen and you did not acquire another Honda -- my experience with Honda owners is that they are among the most loyal of owners. Perhaps your issues are really that you are bored easily by cars -- and this is no sin, in my book. I generally have two Audi's in my garage at one time -- and generally never miss a model year. But my reasons are the cars just keep getting better and better and less boring. My wife and I have violated this new model rule this year as we both have 2001 models, but her lease on her 2001 TT 225HP is up in November 2002 -- so we will be ordering a 2003 around July or August of 2002. My wife is on her second TT and swears that she'll be ordering another (2003) unless they make some radical change that upsets what she perceives is the sporting nature of the car.
I will hopefully be ordering an S4 about one year from now to replace my 14 month old 2001 A6 4.2.
Your comments are valid, no problem with them as they apply to YOU -- as are the comments of the rest of us valid and self-applicable. And, most of us love our Audi's, know they are not perfect and do not believe they are boring.
I, for one, invite debate -- but I hope we can stop bashing Audi -- if you don't like them that is fine. But this board is generally for fans of the brand.
Let's keep up a debate, even an argument -- and let's make certain that we also share our experiences and opinions as Warp Drive has done.
I'm saying just keep in mind that superior styling only goes so far. If you only drive your car at less than 8/10's most of the time, the Audi is a better car than the Subaru because it's got more amenities and plushness than the frisky WRX. But for those who place utmost value out of the driving experience for minimum bucks, the WRX is a better choice. The WRX rewards the driver who's willing to push the car hard. But if you can afford to repair/maintain/insure/buy an S4, then the S4 is a superior car to the WRX (as it should be).
I don't really want to stir up more flames than necessary...just wanted to keep things in perspective from an experience of somebody who's owned one (and is buying a WRX)
One more opinion, I think we should debate on topics, not individual comments. It won't go anywhere.
Billy
-Billy
Attached from Reuters:
VW Splits Car Brands Into Two Groups
Fri Nov 23 14:45:20 2001 GMT
FRANKFURT (Reuters) - Europe's biggest carmaker Volkswagen AG said on Friday it planned to split its car operations into two broad product groups, organized under the Audi and Volkswagen brands.
The Audi brand group will include Audi, Seat and Lamborghini cars, while the Volkswagen group will cover VW, Skoda, Bentley and Bugatti, the group said in a statement following a meeting of the supervisory board.
The heads of the two main brand groups will be responsible for global operations of each broader product group but individual brands will remain independent and retain its own character, the company said in a statement.
VW said the supervisory board had agreed an investment program of some 31 billion euros ($27.24 billion) for the period between 2002-2006, of which 21 billion would be spent on products.
The planned spending volume is slightly lower than the 65 billion mark ($29.20 billion) package set for the 2001-2005 period.
News flash: my dealer and Audi are willing to lower the price of the control arm repair to $1100 (from $2000) after I complained that it is my second set of control arms and how the control arms are poorly designed (lots of 97-98 owners complain about them at audiworld.com). Nice of the dealer to help out an disillusioned owner.
I thought that VW & Audi were separate -- even tho Audi was "owned" by VW. What impact, if any will this have over the next few years -- I mean will I notice a difference?
Currently, a VW Passat and an Audi A4 share many things -- does this mean this will stop?
Is this like saying that General motors will separate Chevy and Buick (for example) into two separate car companies. A Chevy dealer may already feel that he/she is separate from Buick and that they compete with each other.
I mention this only becuase of the Audi executive I lunched with in Ingolstadt who bristled at the notion that a Passat was an A5 -- "an Audi is not a Volkswagen" -- he huffed (and this was in January 2000!)
Pardon my ignorance.
Mark, as I and some AW'ers understand, yes that would mean they don't share parts anymore. I guess VW and Audi (JUST my guess) will be more like Chrysler and Mercedes at the present stage.....although I can say with some confidence that these two will share parts soon. Maybe a C-class having some Neon parts? Ouch.
Billy
I will say I am not bored with this car. I am still glad to own it, and will probably replace it with another Audi. I really enjoy driving it. However, I am considering replacing my Miata (had a kid) with a BMW for two main reasons. I like cars and having two sedans of the same brand seems silly. There are lots of good cars out there now, maybe more than at any other time, and I want to experience that. The second reason is that my Audi dealer is 30 minutes away when there is no traffic and the BMW dealer is 10 minutes away when there is 'rush hour.' The Suburu is tempting, but I don't like the looks so much and thought the interior was cheap for 25K. Still, another good car and lots of fun to drive. I just like my current A4 better.
Mark in Cinci --- I'm jealous, a TT and an S4 in the garage is just about what I would consider perfect. Do you like the A6? I would consider the A6 with the 2.7T, but it is a little out of my current price range. Maybe in a few more years.
Ned
My Ideal garage would contain: A TT coupe for my wife and an S4 4 door coupe (?) for me (and an allroad for the "over the river and through the woods. . ." trips with two Shetland Sheep Dogs, one mother, one wife, luggage for four days and me). I drove the allroad extensively last month, and it seems competent in almost every way when compared with the 4.2 -- but it can haul more and can have a 6spd manual (woo woo). These three Audi's would be the best of all worlds (IMHO) -- now, too bad there is no S4 in the current body style -- yet. An S6 might do too -- and to save some money, the S6 avant might be a combination allroad and S4 all wrapped into one vehicle.
In the mean time, my A6 4.2 with sport package is pretty much the best car I have ever had and the second most fun car (that '95 S6 was sooooo sweeeeeet!)
Any job that can allow you to have a TT and an S4 at the same time AND allow you to have time to post message to the board sounds like a primo job to me! hehehe...
an S4 in the new body style would/will be sweet.
Still waiting for the darn dealer to call me and tell me my car has arrived and they're gonna sell it to me at invoice! hahahahaha
that would be something.
My car..... has arrived!
It's apparently still on the truck or it was just rolled off the truck. So it's gotta go through all the prep and detailing...all the PDI garbage
Worst estimate is it'll be ready by end of week?
So probably...hopefully sooner!
soon baby...soon.
'02 Dolphin Gray 1.8T Quattro Tip - Ebony Interior
Bose, Xenons, Sports, Premium, Roof, Heated Seats
can't wait for it to put my maxima to shame.
actually....it already has! hahah
however...i think my maxy can still outrun both the 1.8 and 3.0 stock.
This board is relaxing and fun -- it pumps up my attitude (being the owner, means I am in SALES). And talking with other Audi fans is not a bad habit at all.
So, yep, I have a primo job -- wanna trade for about 6 months? I need a break!
And, I do NOT have an S4 -- I said "in my ideal garage" I would have an S4 and a TT.
Although somehow I think having a Bugatti share parts with VW would be a problem... :-)
I read the announcement as simply a strategy, an organization and direction for the various brands, which is reflected somewhat by a modified org chart. For Audi, I think the strategy is a bit redundant, because Audi is already competing well in the "desirable sport" department.
got let go along with most of my office earlier this year when the IT industry took a crapper.
but it was a blessing in disguise.
I realized I was sick of the flying, sick of the hotels, and sick of the super long work days.
If i was still in consulting...my free time would be so limited, that I wouldn't be able to enjoy the A4 I'm getting this week!
but...it was fun while i was doing it...in retrospect...I'm glad i'm out.
More free time = More time in the A4!
some say it's 170 as advertised, others say it's really a 180 hp.
What do the good people of Edmunds' townhall think?
is there even anything to debate about?
Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board
Overall impressions: the interior with the leather option is extremely well appointed, and the gauges are logically laid out (although I wish the clock display was larger). I didn't necessarily want xenon lights, but now that I have them they are very nice. The Bose premium sound package is disappointing as the overall sound quality is not that stunning. The standard radio package comes with AM/FM/Cassette and 6 CD changer. I think the premium sound package is an upgrade to the speakers only.
The car handles quite nimbly, and acceleration is very good. The tiptronic is interesting, but anyone who's used to driving a real stick will find it lacking in driving experience. I drove up to Tahoe over the weekend, and the Quattro system handled perfectly in the snow and rain. Although, I have to admit, that on dry road, the BMW 330i handles better and has a tighter feel.
Only one bad experience thus far, and that is my rear tire lost its seal (no puncture) and basically deflated completely. Upon closer examination the tire looked defective (wish I had noticed it earlier). I brought the tire back to the dealership, and after threatening to return the car, they agreed to replace the tire.
I also test drove the 1.8 turbo, and I have to say that as far as acceleration goes there's little difference between 4-cyl 1.8 turbo and the 6-cyl 3.0. The big difference is engine noise during acceleration and high speeds. The turbo is noticeably louder in the cabin than the V6.
I would have considered purchasing the 1.8 turbo if they had offered leather and power seats as options. But for some reason (probably to get buyers to upgrade to the V6) Audi only offers these options on the V6 3.0.
Overall, I love this car. The new body style is quite handsome, and I like the fact that I'm driving something other than the ubiquitous BMW.
Billy
* From AudiWorld post Passat and A4 have the same orientation and coincidently the same hp as does the TT and Jetta
* Orientation would effect the exhaust manifold which could easily account for 10 hp
* Any benefit for the TT of having 10 additional hp would be less than the detriment from the Jetta having 10 extra hp. My guess it that more people cross shop the Jetta and the A4 than the A4 and the TT.
* Any additional V6 sales would be less than lost A4 sales to 325i or other competitors.
* Automakers work so hard to get additional performance from engines I can't imagine giving up the ability to market 10 additional hp.
However I heard from credible sources that the A4 1.8T engine puts out 180hp, even on the pre 2001 ones without the little red slash next to the "T" on the trunk. Reasons for being not to flame the TT owners, not to pull potential 2.8 buyers, and to pay less taxes. Too bad we just can't take our Quattro cars to the dyno cuz I think the normal dynos can't do AWD cars. Maybe the FWD owners can do us a favor??
Billy
I had to go to the dealer today for the ignition recall on my '97 A4. I test drove the new 3.0 with quattro, manual transmission and sports package. I thought it was much quicker and tighter than my old car. No surprise there. I did not find the ride too harsh on the highway. It was definately quieter and the engine noise is very, very different. More of a throatier, growling kind of noise. I liked the new layout of the dash. I was a little leary of the ball on the stick. The 6 speed was nice, but not too much better shifting than the '97. In other words, they still need to work on this a little bit. It had leather, but to be honest, I did not think it was that much better than the leatherette. All in all, I liked it better than my '97, and I really love my '97. The guy on the lot was VERY intersted in me turning in my '97, says they cannot keep the used ones on the lot. They had about 3 or 4 of the '02s and several more 01's still on the lot.
I did not drive the S4, but I did drive an A6 3.0 just to give it a try. It was not as fun or sporty, but I did like it better than I thought. I do not like automatics, but it would redline and the quattro worked as well as it did on the A4. I liked it better than my mom's Lexus. The sales guy told me the were having trouble moving the S4s due to the new body style. He hinted they would be willing to bargain on one of those. I did not ask too much about the new A4 in terms of pricing. I have a few other cars I want to drive before I buy. If the dealer was close by, the A4 would probably be tops, especially with the 4 year warranty.
Have a good one.
I ordered the optional 16-inch tires.
However, I like the look of the 17-inch wheels and the supposed improved performance of the summer tires.
I'm considering buying a set of the 17-inch wheels & tires and mounting them for summer driving. Will this improve the car's performance even though I didn't order it with the sports suspension?
02 1.8T Quattro Tip, Dolphin Gray/Ebony interior.
I'm sure 17 wheels and tires will help the performance. As for suspension...don't sweat it too much. The standard suspension for the 2002 models was the sports suspension for the 2001's.
Don't you love the Dolphin Gray color?!