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Audi A4 2004 and earlier

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Comments

  • 10k_oregon10k_oregon Member Posts: 7
    I am told by the salesman at Sunset Audi in Beaverton that he is 99% sure I will get the A4 1.8T Quattro fully loaded for 5% over invoice which will be @ $31,000. I am going to sell my Durango myself since they want to give me a very low price for it. I will update you later on this transaction as it unfolds.
  • scirocco22scirocco22 Member Posts: 721
    That's great news, Corey! I'm really encouraged by news like that. It means that dealers here in the NW or the West in general are starting to loosen up in their pricing.

    --'rocco
  • 10k_oregon10k_oregon Member Posts: 7
    I really hope that if more people do their homework and call around or e-mail dealers they will get the same bargaining power I did. I talked to a dealer in California as well as 3 dealers in Washington and just flat out threatened Sunset to match another dealers offer or I will drive 5 hours to get the car I want and the price. I will keep all that are following this transaction updated till I have car in my possesion. I hope I have helped some here with what I have found out.
  • jdbtensaijdbtensai Member Posts: 122
    i have the previous body style of a4 sedan, an s4 actually. i really like the look of the car.
    i'm not a big fan of the newer sedan.
    but i saw the avant at a dealership in l.a. last weekend. i think it looked awesome.
    it looks a little wider than the previous avant. other than that pretty much the same.
  • scirocco22scirocco22 Member Posts: 721
    Indeed, that's how to do it! I didn't quite go to California (although considered it) but I did pit dealers against each other in Washington when I finally narrowed the field down to 3 or 4. If I were a little more patient I could have possibly secured a better price but as it turned out, I feel I received a better deal than most last spring. It's a fact that most people will not go to that trouble and pay more than they have to but never-the-less are relatively satisfied with the price they pay. Kudos to you for the service you have done for the consumers in the NW! :)

    --'rocco
  • scirocco22scirocco22 Member Posts: 721
    I do like the look of the new Avant much more than the sedan too!

    --'rocco
  • lauk0dglauk0dg Member Posts: 563
    Yup I agree the Avant looks really sharp at the Auto Show and at the dealership. However i noticed the pricing of an 02 A4 3.0Q Avant FULLY loaded (even with nav) is $42.6k (!!) while a normally loaded Allroad is $43.6k.....and a fully loaded one is $47k. I can't justify spending $42.5k on the A4 3.0Q Avant when I can pay $1k more for a biturbo V6 and adjustable pnuematic suspension, not mentioning a bigger interior!! Something's wrong here.

    Billy
  • chewymanchewyman Member Posts: 20
    Preparing to purchase A4Q. Wife is tepid on the idea of a manual. Will the power differences be very noticeable? I drove a quattro with an automatic with a 150hp motor. MY2000 I believe. it felt pretty sluggish. Will the new and improved higher hp 1.8 perform at an acceptable level? Or should I just disregard the idea of a Tip? I didn't want to step up to the bigger more expensive 3.0 motor. The salesman tells me that the difference is not an issue now!!
  • jdbtensaijdbtensai Member Posts: 122
  • bluetranebluetrane Member Posts: 67
    I think you really have to ask yourself what kind of driver you are first. If you are performance oriented and need brisk acceleration to be happy with your car, it sounds like you would need a manual with the 1.8.

    I can drive a stick but I prefer an automatic (that kind of talk will get a feller lynched on AudiWorld). I drove both the 3.0 and the 1.8 pretty extensively when I was car shopping, and I thought the 1.8/Tip had plenty of power to suit my driving style. Others have been pretty adamant that the 1.8 is underpowered, especially with a Tip. Your mileage may vary.

    Try it yourself. If you think it has enough oopmh for you, then who cares what the AW guys say? OTOH, if you find the 1.8 a bit anemic with the Tip, then by all means get the stick or upgrade to the 3.0.
  • btr1btr1 Member Posts: 20
    I have a 2002 1.8TQ with Tip. While I only have 700 miles on it....it does seem a little sluggish - but I'm not one who needs to blow off the stop lite.....and I'm still driving conservatively to break her in. yeah, it'd be nice to have a quicker car, but I didn't want to spend another few thousand on it. Besides at highway speeds - really sweet.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    Why don't you check out a buick regal GS? It comes with a 240hp V6 & an automatic transmission. Sorry...I had to get that one out! LOL

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • lauk0dglauk0dg Member Posts: 563
    MMMMMM.....what kind of depreciation are we talking about on the Regal??? Plus the styling is.....ummmm zzzzzzzzzzz.

    If you want a rocket, get the Nissan Maxima, or the new Altima. With a stick the Maxima fires off the line. If you want more reliability, get the Acura TL Type S. If you want handling and luxury at a good price, get the A4. The A4 is nowhere going to be as fast as the Maxima, but it can take that curve faster than most of the cars at the same price range.

    Billy
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    I was just breakin' balls. Believe me, I would never recommend a Buick to anybody. Especially on an Audi thread.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • brick22brick22 Member Posts: 71
    Hi, Bluetrane--me again. None of the dealers in my vicinity seems to want to respond with a brochure on the A4 Avant. If you have some time, would you list on this thread any color combinations that are different from the A4 1.8T sedan? Didn't you say there are a few that are different for the Avant? I'm talking about the 1.8T, not the 3.0. You mentioned Atlas Grey--I think I saw that color on an A4 3.0 at the dealer. Is that interior or exterior. I liked the Alpaca exterior color on the All Road for the 2001, but I don't think that's available on the A4. Thanks!
  • black_tulipblack_tulip Member Posts: 435

    bluetrane makes some good points. You will have to drive it and decide if the tip is good enough for you.

    As for me, when I first drove a 1.8T quattro with a tip, I kept looking for the parking brake. I thought it was set!

    While I would not recommend a Buick Regal, I would strongly encourage you to look at Lexus ES300 or the Acura TL if you must have an auto.

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    I apologize because I don't remember who asked the question. Another alternative is to find an Audi Assured Certified Pre Owned (READ-Used) car. I'm sure you can find great deals on a 2000, 2001, or 2001.5 with the 2.8 V6, low mileage and the tiptronic for athe same price or less then an '02 1.8T. The balance of the factory warranty will still be in effect until the 4 year/50,000 mile mark, The balance of Free maintenance will be in effect for the same period. I think Audi extends the powertrain warranties on the Audi Assured cars for an extra 2 years or 100,000 miles (whichever comes first.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    The 1.8T's character is much different with the manual than with the auto -- or the other way around. I chose my words carefully this time -- I did not say that the manual was better. I think it can be argued that it is better, more performance, more control, more fun, perhaps more economical.

    However, therefore, notwithstanding -- that sentitment is based on my preferences for more performance, control and fun. There, indeed are negatives too to the manual transmission and some positives pertaining to the auto.

    Frankly, if you just plain don't like a manual transmission no matter how measurably different it may be in performance and control (fun is subjective, after all), well then get the automatic. My last 3 Audi's have been auto's and my wife has never had an auto. Every time I drive my auto, it makes me sooo long to cease being "shiftless."

    If you're not sure, try the manual 1.8T on a long long long test drive -- I'll bet you'll get hooked!
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    My salesman says there IS an issue (a noticable difference in performance) with the 1.8T with a tip -- not that he doesn't sell them. It is that he says something like "the 1.8T when paired with the 5spd feels and acts like its got a much bigger and more potent engine -- but then again you give up some smoothness and convenience." So, in his message is something for the auto and the manual buyer to hear. The 5 spd tiptronic is one of the best autos on the market, but it does reduce the acceleration of the car.

    A salesperson I know says that more 1.8T's quattros are sold with "sport and manual" than without. Also, one salesperson (who would probably deny saying this) intones something like, "the 1.8T is a higher value package than the 3.0." I bet that sentiment is why -- in the US at least -- you cannot buy a 1.8T with leather, sat nav and power seats (although they are available in other markets). If a buyer could max out a 1.8T like a 3.0, it would seem that some 3.0 buyers might spend less and drive off in a 3.0. Once that new 2.0T engine becomes available with up to 245 HP, well it would seem that the 3.0 might be somewhat less attractive.

    But, we do love having choices don't we?
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    the 225hp version of the 1.8T that's available in the TT in the A4? I'd bet that'd make a great car. Of course they'd never do it because the 3.0 only has 220 hp.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • bluetranebluetrane Member Posts: 67
    The only color combos that are different are for Atlas Gray Avants, which can be had with cloth in Ebony or Gray, leatherette in Ebony or Platinum, and leather in Ebony, Platinum, or Blue.

    Rick
  • brick22brick22 Member Posts: 71
    Thank you for taking the time. I don't remember--what do you have? I keep wanting to ask, but do you like your car? Or is there anything you don't like about it?
  • bluetranebluetrane Member Posts: 67
    I have an Avant 1.8 on order for delivery in May. I'll let you know how I like it in 3 months or so :)
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    is the "New TT engine" (and perhaps it will find its way into the A4, perhaps a bit depowered): 2.0T @ 245 HP -- reportedly on sale in 2003 model year TT's headed for the US.

    Perhaps a bit underblown it will be an A4 2.0T @ 200 HP or 225HP -- and while I know that is nipping on the 3.0 V6's wheels, the practice of engine displacments and power ratings much closer together than we in the US are used to is common in European market. You can get "around" 180 HP in AT LEAST three different engine flavors in Germany (two of them gasoline, one diesel).

    I remember touring the Audi factory and seeing a 1.6, 1.8, 1.8T, 2.4, 2.6, 2.8, 2.7T, 3.7 and 4.2 gasoline engine selection and at least one diesel, a 2.5T. Several of the specific outputs of the engines seemed close to each other, as in "why have a 1.8T and a 2.4 and a 2.6 -- they are all close in HP/torque ratings?" Then I saw the 1.8T powered S3 which predated the TT 225HP. In an S3, the 1.8T was rated at 225. Next to it was a 2.7T S4 @ 250HP.

    My point is actually a question, there appears to be a horsepower "war" coming or already being waged?

    I just read about the 4.2 allroad, the 2.0T TT, the 4.0 W8 and the 4.2T and the 6.0 W12, a possible 2.9T (@ a conservative 295HP) and, and, and. Perhaps Audi USA will put the most potent or nearly the most potent engines in their lineup as they always have. That would have to mean -- perhaps -- a 225HP 2.0T and perhaps an uprated 3.0 nonT and/or 2.9T and/or W8 and/or 4.2 across the A4 line.

    Who's to say that a "mild" 4.2 couldn't be at the top of the A4 lineup and a "wild" one in the S4? Or perhaps as timcar suggests in his posts (and I am advancing the theory), a 2.0T in the "base A4" a W8 @ 275HP in the upline A4 and either a 2.9T or 4.2 in the Sportline S4 and maybe even a screamer S4+ or RS4 (for sure) with even higher output versions of the 4.2. After all, in non-turbo form, there is already a 360HP 4.2 in the S8.

    I need a drink.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I picked it up last nite at the Cincinnati auto show -- the quickest Audi is STILL the A6 2.7T with a 6spd manual. 6 seconds flat -- even the mighty S6 and S8 are 6.5 and 6.3 second cars (but of course these do only come with 5spd Tiptronic transmissions.)

    Audi reps talked about new engines, cars and combinations that are coming soon -- a 4.2 allroad for example (frankly I almost wonder what's the point with both a 2.7T and an S6 avant already -- but hey, the more's the merrier).

    Getting behind the wheel of the S6 makes me lust for a sedan version of same -- and the upcoming TT's and the S line TT (which they did no have) sound pretty spanky.

    The Audi (and truth be told, VW) breed looks like they have a great future.

    Can't wait!
  • brick22brick22 Member Posts: 71
    I can't tell from the paint chip in the brochure how this color would look. Is it more towards black, or does the pearl effect show the way it does in the dolphin and denim? Thanks--
  • timtim2timtim2 Member Posts: 2
    Looking for a 4wd or AWD in a sedan. Audi looks like a better value than the BMW. Any other ideas?
  • timtim2timtim2 Member Posts: 2
    Anyone know who is the, or one of the, largest Audi dealers on the east coast? Thanks
  • scirocco22scirocco22 Member Posts: 721
    Tim-- um, let's see *thinks* ...yeah, BMW 3-series (325 and 330 "xi" with its 38/62 front to rear split), Jaguar X-Type (40/60 split), and Volvo S60 2.4T and Subaru Legacy.

    Any others? What do we on this board think is best? ...well, I suppose you can guess.


    I remember reading somewhere about the dealer in the northeast which has the largest volume in Audi sales ...I'll try to look for it and let you know if I find it.

    Jill-- I did see a goodwood green sedan the other day. It was quite dark (almost looked black from a distance until I got up fairly close) and, IMO, the pearl effect had a similar appearance of the old santorin blue which you'll see on many pre-'02s. Dolphin and denim are slightly lighter colors than goodwoood so I don't know if you could really compare the effect accurately, IMO. It's a rich and attractive color when looking at it close up. Here's a pic from the AoA site but, like a swatch/chip, you can't really get an accurate impression without seeing it in person: click here

    Saw your post on the buying from dealer inventory vs. factory ordering thread. I agree with most of what Car_man said. I will add that with both my Audi and Subaru puchases, both dealers told me that they'd give an equal or better price on a factory order than buying a car from their inventory probably for the fact that they can avoid the flooring costs associated with bringing an addition unit from their allocations into their inventory. Some dealerships, however, may have units in their inventory that they may want to "move" for a given reason which they may discount heavily. One bit of caution that I've heard concerns some consumers is that on a dealer trade, they usually actually drive the vehicle to their dealership. That means that the car will have "some" miles on it when you take delivery. I've heard many reports where a large majority of new car buyers like to have a car with only 0-20 miles on the odometer when they take delivery. They don't want the added miles that the car will have if it had to be driven a lot of miles on a dealer trade. I guess they're concerned that whomever is doing the driving might not treat it the way that a brand new car should be treated. If the trade is with a local dealer within a few miles from one another, then it probably wouldn't be that much of a concern. You can pay extra, however, to have the car flatbedded to the dealership.

    --'rocco
  • sjmurray2sjmurray2 Member Posts: 65
    Looking for new car and test drove A4/A6 3.0 Quatros Saturday and was very impressed. I am also looking BMW 325/330/525/530 series. I do not know much about Audi, but what comes to mind is poor reliability over the last 20 years. Is this an accurate assessment still? I liked the A6 ammenities very much. I also am confused about CVT VS. Quatro? I live in South Florida, but will be mobilized to Norfolk, VA for a one year recall for active duty military service for Homeland Defense. Bottom line: Looking a for a good reliable car with some sporty flare and luxury. Any advise?
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    The following, while a quote from Audi literature, is for the vast majority of us on the Audi boards (and most of us being Audi owners), probably an accurate reflection of Audi+quattro -- not Audi alone mind you, Audi+quattro.

    "quattro: Around the world, a synonym for confidence." Although some folks opinions written on this board about all wheel drive claims that AWD has more to do with winter traction than other attributes, I would disagree. Yes, it is true that AWD is great when there is any condition that is not "dry pavement." But quattro (and to be fair, SOME other AWD interpretations) is a performance and safety enhancer under all conditions.

    The "friendly" argument I often find myself in is saying that a BMW 330 cannot be compared to an Audi A4 3.0 quattro. Of course they are often compared because there are marketing similarities between the two, e.g., price (although the Audi gives higher "content" for the money), engine displacement, approximate size of the vehicle, etc. But, a quattro equipped Audi is a chassis, engine, transmission "system." The sum of the parts is greater than the whole.

    The BMW 330 will out accelerate an A4 3.0, on dry pavement the Bimmer will have "higher" g numbers than the Audi -- yet, in the real world where most of us drive, the Audi offers "more" -- more capability, more performance and more safetey ("confidence"). The BMW is a great car, and in face offs one year the BMW will "win" and then next time the Audi "wins." The power of the BMW is addictive, to be sure. But test drive them both on anything less than a perfect day and the Audi "advantage" becomes apparent.

    And, please test drive cars that are apples and apples price wise not just competitors by virtue of some specification. For example, the BMW 5 series is price compeitive with the A6 2.7T with sport package -- yet a 530 would seem to be a car that should be compared to an A6 3.0. The price point and content of a 530 on most BMW dealer's lots makes them, however, more accurately comparable to the 2.7T -- which outperforms the 530.

    Finally, although I am unashamed to be Audi biased, you will not go wrong with any of the Bimmers you noted. Audis have sporty flair and luxury and they offer across the line -- quattro.

    "Nothing even comes close. . ." (yea I know it was ripped off).
  • sjmurray2sjmurray2 Member Posts: 65
    Thanks for the info above! Can you quote the differences between the two models? I like the appearance/sportiness of the A4 while the A6 offered a more luxury type ride. I would like to stay below 40K too. The spec sheet states A4 has more interior volume? Scott
  • jdbtensaijdbtensai Member Posts: 122
    the A6 2.7t is the fastest?
    i assume you are leaving out the s4 because it is not in production right now?
    that's from 0-60? what about from 50-70?
    or 40-100? or whatever.
    just curious. i haven't seen any numbers other than 0-60 and 1/4 miles.
  • lauk0dglauk0dg Member Posts: 563
    You asked about CVT and Quattro.

    CVT: It stands for Continuously Variable TRANSMISSION. It's a new vocabulary in addition to manual and automatic. In a manual equipped vehicle, there are 5 or 6 preset gear sizes. In a CVT vehicle, there are no gears. Instead, there's a chain and pulley system that continuously changes the "gear ratio". The engine spins at an efficient speed and the CVT will change the size of the chain and pulley to give you optimal pull at different speeds. For the Audi system you can also use the preset CVT ratios in case you still want the 1st-2nd-3rd gear shifts. The advantage of this is the car is as fast as a manual, yet having the kind of fuel mpg figure a manual will get because there is no torque converter like an automatic does.

    Quattro: It's the name for the AWD system on Audi. Unlike other systems, each of the 4 wheels got 25% of the engine power under normal driving situations. Most 4WD vehicles drive their front wheels and only split power to the back wheels under slipping conditions, which maybe too late already. Plus most of these 4WD vehicles don't recommend driving with all 4 wheels all the time. Not the case in Audi's. And if I remember correctly the Quattro system can send 66% of the engine power to the only wheel that doesn't spin if it needs to.

    So it's transmission vs drive train.

    Billy
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Let's see if I can give short answers (fat chance):

    The 2.7T Audi A6 is not the fastest, and my post did not say "fastest." It (the 2.7T 6spd manual A6 for 2002) is the quickest (ONLY in 6spd manual configuration). The S6 and S8 (according to the literature) are faster. Practically speaking, the A6 4.2 would be faster than the 2.7T also -- but these two have a computer limiter set at 130mph (which IS defeatable if anyone really is nuts!). The S versions are computer limited to 155mph. Of course even here in bucolic Cincinnati, we rarely can go much over 100mph -- I can remember 80 and 85+ when the interstates are not crowded -- but this just doesn't happen that much anymore. Damn orange barrels everywhere.

    With respect to the S4 -- currently according to the latest and greatest Audi literature, there is no S4 available -- although there are some S4 and S4 Avants "out there" on dealer's lots (there was one last week in Dallas so I'm told). So, I did not mention it as it was a carry over model and only temporarily available and then only in reduced inventory.

    I have the Audi book which lists EVERY NEW Audi (USA) model, performance claims and standard equipment. There are no options mentioned, no paint chips or interior swatches, etc. It is a "just the facts" book (a nice book, but more a thumbnail overview of the various models).

    ========== Comparisons

    A6 quattro 3.0 from "da book":

    0-60mph (Tiptronic) 7.9 seconds

    A4 quattro 3.0 from "da book":

    0-60 (6spd manual) 6.9 seconds (Tiptronic) 7.7 seconds

    There are no Audi of America published figures for the other quickness ?'s you had -- they are sometimes available on the Car & Driver website (and other auto magazine web sites, too).

    Finally, although possible, it would be fairly difficult to find or configure an A6 3.0 quattro for under $40K -- a maxed out A6 3.0 quattro sport with Pearl White Paint is "just barely" north of $40K and would, of course be discounted from that number and if you didn't get the Pearl White color would be south of $40K. The A6 could be ordered "skinny" and it too would be discounted, so it is technically a contender too. The A6 will be bigger in the back seat of course, the A4 will be IMO more sporty and less sedan like. The opposite is true with the A6 3.0 which does not offer a factory sport package, for example.

    CVT is TODAY only on FWD A4's and A6's -- so it is on both A4's and only the A6 3.0 -- coming soon, so they say to quattros and bigger (more powerful, i.e.) engines.

    It is a nit, admittedly, but it is probably worth noting that "fast" relates to the top speed of the car (any car) and quick relates to acceleration numbers. 0-60 times are, broadly speaking, considered measures of quickness.

    The 2.7T is quicker @ 250HP than a 4.2 @ 300HP even though the torque of the 2.7T is "only" 258 lb/ft and the 4.2 is 295 lb ft. The quickness of the 2.7T comes from the fact that its torque peak starts at 1850 RPM while the 4.2 peak starts at 3000 RPM. It is not just the size of the torque it is when it is usable. Audi turbo engines generally "come on steam" so to speak earlier than the normally aspirated engines -- even tho the bigger V8 has both more HP and torque, it is available a split second later than the torque of the V6 bi-turbo.
  • jdbtensaijdbtensai Member Posts: 122
    i meant quickest not fastest, as you said. sorry.
    i have an s4, never even been in an a6. have you driven a 2.7t and a 4.2? if so, any comments on the differences in feel? and how this compares to the new a4?
    thank you for your "short" reply above. :)
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I have had two A6 4.2's one of them I have now, a 2001 A6 4.2 sport. I have test driven several A6 2.7T's -- one of them extensively and it had the 6spd manual. The 4.2 feels more solid and even though I know the 2.7T is quicker, the differences are not that great.

    Based on what I think I know now, I will probably end up with an '03 middle model A6 with a manual transmission -- rumors are wild, but include a 295HP 2.9T engine, a 3.7 V8, the new W8 from the soon to be here Passat -- but this model will probably soldier on at least another year or two with a stick shift unless or until the CVT has been proven in quattro and with the kind of torque the new audi engines will offer -- frankly a 2.9T would be quite satisfactory I'll wager (with the 6spd manual).

    The 4.2 feels better -- in every way -- to me than my 1997 A8 (which I kept for 47,000 miles and had special ordered the S8 factory suspension and plus sized tires). I previously (before the A8) had a 1995 S6 which, until my current A6 4.2, was the best Audi I ever owned -- it had the power and the fun transmission -- but I got rid of it, too, right before 50,000 miles.

    My wife and I have had two dozen Audi cars (almost all models they have ever offered in the US) since 1978 (my first was a 1978 Audi 5000 followed by a 1979 Audi Fox GTI). We have had a (healthy) love affair with Audi (plus we also had a VW Jetta and a VW quantum and a BMW 325ix [1988] and an American Eagle). As you can tell, we love the VW/Audi brand and all-wheel-drive since virtually all of our cars, except the VW's have been AWD).

    We have been to the Audi factory in Ingolstadt 6 times, once as Audi's guest. From time to time we correspond with Audi of America folks about the product and have been to the Audi driving school in Seefeld Austria 4 times 1997 - 1998, 2000 - 2001. Audi test marketed the A8 to 25 customers, in 1996, and we were one of the "lucky" families who got to have not one but two A8's "loaned to us" (a 4.2 quattro and a 3.7 FWD version) as part of the roll out of the Audi A8 in the US.

    Audi has rewarded our outspoken loyalty time and again, most recently with a trip to St. Moritz to watchs the women's super G down hill skiing. We are members of the quattro club of America and my wife's photographs of driving schools have graced the pages of the quattro quarterly. My wife is "on" her second TT and will be ordering a 2003 version as the lease on her 2001 225HP TT coupe is up later this year (30 month lease).

    We got to drive the A4 quattro sport 2.5TD on a private course in Austria in January 2001 (it still has not made it to the US). This version of the A4 is the best A4 I have ever driven (next to the S4 anyway -- and I suspect it is quicker than the 3.0 -- at least to 80 or 100 kph at least).

    So we have much experience, much passion and strong opinions on the Audi brand. And, we love to talk and write about it with our fellow Audi owners and possible future Audi owners.

    I like the new A4 a lot and am anxious to see/drive a new body style S4 (hurry hurry AoA).

    So much new Audi product is "in the pipeline" -- the next few years look VERY exciting indeed.

    Another short reply!?!
  • jdbtensaijdbtensai Member Posts: 122
    you are audi guy. haven't seen "markcincinnati" on audi world. name there?

    i am very curious about the upcoming audi cars and engines. from what i know they have a large variety of engines in europe. i'm hoping that the next s4 is the 2.9t, unless the 4.2 is actually lighter.
    it would be nice to keep the quattro and yet not let the weight get too out of control.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Nothing happens until it happens -- huh? Which is my way of saying that the Audi people give a nod and wink (in January 2002 while I was in Munich with the quattro Club of America) to the S4 coming out with a 340HP version of the 4.2 -- to battle the BMW M3. However, therefore, notwithstanding, there IS a Cosworth developed 2.9T (bi-turbo, like the 2.7T) engine that must ultimately go into something -- I had hoped for a mild and a wild S4 -- even the mild one would blow away the last gen S4, don't you think?

    The allroad gets the 4.2 soon, too -- this 4.2 may just be "the little engine that could" -- it too has been created and updated recently as a 4.2T (see AudiWorld, speaking of that web site) in an A6 body to boot (the RS6). W engines, too are coming -- W8 W12 even a possible W10 diesel version. More torque, horsepower, less pollution, greater economy, longer service intervals, etc.

    The best really is yet to come: allroad 2 or something like that, a nod and wink to the Steppenwolf, and more S-line cars (coming soon a limited edition S-line TT -- not hotter engine, in this version, just more sporty goodies and a notch or two more upscale.

    A 2.0T with 245HP when configured in the S3 or the new '03 TT -- and how about an S3 in this market? An S3 quattro only makes sense in a world where VW Audi (claiming they don't compete for customers -- and pigs fly right?) is bringing out a W8 Passat for $37,900 and a W12 Phaeton with active suspension for $71K -- an S3 will not compete with a GTI eh?

    Seriously, I think we may see all these cars, plus some other goodies with some great features and functions.

    Gotta go for now!
  • jdbtensaijdbtensai Member Posts: 122
    i'd be surprised to see so many varieties of similar cars in america, but it's possible.
    i'd be surprised to see two versions of an s car, like the s4. that would be like bmw having two m3's, with two different engines. and i'm not counting the v8 racing m3 they have.
    if they can mass produce the 4.2 to the extent that it looks like they will i would think that the costs would be fairly low.
    any idea what the hp/torque numbers of the 2.9t are?
    if they're gonna use the 4.2 so much, then what's the point of the 2.9t?
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    While I want an S4 with a 2.9T engine, I must say that all indications and rumors support the notion of a 4.2 non turbo S4. Audi wants a win -- the 2.9T with a reported (in a car magazine, and who knows its accuracy) 295HP (probably so that it doesn't equal the "base" 4.2) would be a great engine.

    You know, for the US market at least, an A4 with the 2.0T followed perhaps by a 2.9T and a 4.2 in the S4 may make some "marketing" sense. The whole A4 line, then, would be at least 200HP, as the 2.0T can be configured, like the 1.8T was (is) in so many ways.

    I have seen the European market accept what, to us in the US might seem to be incremental differences in engines, and engines in cars that we might find hard to conceive -- a 2.8 in an A8 for instance, and a 225HP 1.8T in an S3. And "full size" A6's with 1.8T engines when they were rated at 150HP. Perhaps if our gasoline prices climb above $4.00 a gallon, such differences will not seem minor.

    So, Audi will have in its lineup -- in a given body/chassis -- at least two engines and often 3 (based on history at least). Who's to say that the excellent and powerful Audi turbo diesels will not be sent here again.

    And, with VW coming out with the W8 Passat, the Phaeton and other more upscale offerings that to me seem competitive with Audi, I can only assume that we will have more and more choices in the near future.

    A Phaeton at $71,000 hmmm will that steal from the A8's or from Mercedes and BMW -- time will tell. A Passat with most Audi-like lux trimmings and a 275HP W8 for $10,000 less than an A6 2.7T -- with AWD, ESP, leather and and and. Maybe the idea is the VW corporation grows in total revenue, and "who cares" if the revenue is from Audi, Seat, VW or one of the really high buck car lines?

    There are VW golfs and Audi A3's on the other side of the ocean living in harmony. The arguments I have read for years stated that Audi did not compete with VW -- the Audi customer would not be a VW customer, a VW customer would graduate to Audi, etc. VW claims the new cars are aimed at Mercedes target market (with similar features for 20% less).

    I keep coming back to my friends who are interested in capability and content, not just image -- they WILL look at VW's and Audis and buy the car that offers the most capability and content for the money.

    Today, it is still reasonable and plausible to believe that the discerning buyer can distinguish between the VW and Audi brands -- how about when VW has cars that "list" in the high $30k range to $70K+? Perhaps Audi will just keep going up market in content, capability and (price) class.

    I do say, the more the merrier -- but I also wonder if there will be a blurring of the cars in the consumer's mind. Then I would have to say that Audi customers will find VW's of higher content for the money -- or of difficult to quantify differences for the money.
  • jdbtensaijdbtensai Member Posts: 122
    i just hope that the prices don't move up too far. of the audis.
    i would love to get another s4 in a few years when the new one comes out. but if passes over $50k, then the m3 starts looking REAL nice.
    i would definitely rather see the 2.9t in it. unless the 4.2 is actually lighter and cheaper (do to volume of production).

    i don't think our gas prices will be moving to european levels for quite awhile. which makes it more surprising that there aren't more "performance" sedans, and sports cars, here than in europe.
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    I agree completely.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Member Posts: 16,373
    My friend (I swear it isn't me) who has the A4 3.0 Quattro and the broken gas gauge has brought his car into get fixed again. Hopefully the new instrument cluster (2nd new one besides the one from the factory & new on that broke upon installation) will do the trick.

    His loaner is an A6 3.0 Quattro. He says the ride is much different (less sporty) than his A4. He says it is much roomier and smoother.

    He saw an A4 Cabriolet imported from A of A to do some prelimenary testing and focus groups I guess. He says the Cabroilet is gorgeous. It has a different interior than the A4 Sedans.

    I believe the largest Audi dealer on the East Coast (Maybe the largest in the country) is New Country Audi in Greenwich, CT.

    Hmmmmmm...An A4 2.0 T with at least 200hp. It is looking better and better than a 325Ci now for when car shopping time comes around in November/December for me.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2022 Wrangler Sahara 4Xe, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD

  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    No one, from Audi, who "knows" will actually tell what they know about future models -- unless the information and production are at the point of no return.

    Yes, there really are 2.0T and 2.9T engines -- but as far as I know, they have been only by rumor and spy photo and dealer inquiries (by Audi, as in ". . .hey dealer, would a 2.0T engine offered in an A4 be a "good thing" for sales?") in any way "announced." One web site I know (and this has been "confirmed" by an Audi salesperson -- who is not actually an AoA employee of course) is showcasing -- they even have a picture -- an Audi TT coupe 2003 model "mule" which has a 2.0T 245HP engine in it. The 2.0T has been written about as yet another can-do engine for the VW/Audi group (probably Audi first). The 2.0T engine will allow Audi to further up the hp and torque in the cars that currently have the 1.8T engine. Since this engine is now widely used in several VW's (Audi's parent company, BTW), it does probably have much more traction than most rumors and predictions from the automotive press.

    I am, because I am enthusiastic and optimistic, "suggesting" such future model/engine designations. I am 99% certain of the 4.2 allroad -- and several Audi people have "confirmed" such a car is coming "next." But, 99% certain is not 100% certain.

    My point is, if TODAY I was in the market for a new (Audi) car -- I would shop and configure the one that I wanted from the population of known -- for certain -- cars, engines and options. What if the '03 A4, in the US, comes with an uprated 1.8T (upped perhaps to match the TT and VW configuration -- 180HP or MAYBE even 225HP as in the "hot TT," up from the current rated 170HP) and you waited hoping for a 200HP 2.0T because you took comments, speculation and SOME facts from various and sundry web sites and Internet town halls? What if the 2.0T is only available in Europe for a year, etc etc etc?

    Please know that all of us ardent (rabid, perhaps) car fans -- especially Audi fans -- do not have a lock on what will happen at the 100% level of certainty.

    Now, me, I'm waiting for an S4 or an S6, 'cause I'm certain (99%) they're coming!

    Again, I am OFTEN WRONG, but NEVER UNCERTAIN.

    Be guided accordingly.
  • jdbtensaijdbtensai Member Posts: 122
    i agree with you in thinking that the rs4(will there be one) and rs6 will not make it to the u.s. while the s4 and s6 certainly will.

    question for you. have you heard anything about power numbers available from the 2.9t?
    do you know anything about how the weight of the 2.9t, including the turbos, compares to the weight of the 4.2?
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    OK the poop from either Car and Driver or Road and Track or CAR magazine -- heck it may even have been in European Car recently -- on the 2.9T is this: It is very possible to produce a reliable, drivable 2.9T with a rating of over 300HP and of course the early-on high torque that all Audi's turbo engines are famous for (torque coming on south of 2,000 RPM). However, in non-turbo form, the base 4.2 is "only" 300HP and the S8 4.2 is "only" 360.

    Therefore, producing an agressive 350HP 2.9T powered model (A4 or A6) and marketing it would have to be problematic.

    Indeed, in some senses it is probably a bit of a "sticky wicket" that the 2002 A6 2.7T is quicker than the S6 and the S8 by .5 and .3 seconds (as reported in Audi brochures). The content of the S6 and S8 and even the A6 4.2 are therefore given more prominence -- which I find only a little odd, since both the S6 and the S8 are offered as THE AUDI PERFORMANCE cars (only to be bettered by a car that is perhaps some $30,000 less money).

    I am mostly convinced that you are getting a lot more than just a 0-60 time with these higher buck cars, but c'mon, let's have the S6 4.2 that comes to the US be the "king of the [6 series] hill" in ALL aspects (and that includes quickness). The 25mph top speed edge the S6 has over the 2.7T or even the 4.2 (which I own) does nothing for us here in River City (Cincinnati) -- I mean where can you ever go 130mph safely let alone 155mph. I'd forego that 25mph top speed improvement for a full second advantage on the 0-60 times.

    So, the article reads something like this -- the Cosworth developed 2.9T is rated at an easy 295HP and similar torque -- which is available from under 2000 RPM. All of us who have read these posts and those on AudiWorld, know that the 2.7T can be "stage one" chipped to 295HP +/- a few horses. A 295HP 2.9T would be, one can conclude, very mild indeed. And, also, most of us who have ever driven an S4 or A6 2.7T manual transmissions of course know that the stock 2.7T "ain't no slouch!" Even a mild 2.9T in an A6 or A4 (S4) would have to come equipped with speeding tickets in the glove box for the driver's convenience! Holy Cow Batman!

    Yet, due to what I believe is purely for positioning (perhaps aka Market Placement), the following makes sense. You can't have your 2.9T have specs "better" than your 4.2 (even if it can out accelerate the 4.2 in certain body and drivetrain applications) -- so you limit the 2.9T to a lazy (considering the potential) 295HP. And, you make absolutely certain that as you crank up the displacement of the engine, you crank up the [mostly] luxury and [somewhat] sporting content of the model that contains the most cubic inches. Got that?

    Last year, for example, if you test drove an A4 1.8T (@ a claimed 170HP) and then immediately drove a similar A4 2.8 (@ a claimed 190HP) and looked at the sticker price -- well you saw and felt the following: the A4 1.8T seemed quicker, it cost less, and it handled better if both A4's were quattro's with the sport option; the A4 2.8 had wood inlays, available leather, available power seats and sat nav (and you couldn't get these things on the 1.8T version). The "content" but not the performance was higher on the 2.8. Four of my friends who could have afforded either, chose "fully optioned" 1.8T's -- frankly they only missed the leather availability a little bit and the power seats a little more. Uh oh -- we must not let THAT happen again.

    So, we will offer three engine/chassis combinations that will -- hopefully -- not cause buyers to "buy down." Here is at least one possibility that might solve such a dilemma:

    In the A4 body:

    a 2.0T tuned to 195 or 200HP (the dealers will want 200HP for bragging rights, and I'll wager they'll get it -- and Audi dealers are NOT pleased that VW's 1.8T is rated at 180HP whereas in the A4 it still is marketed as 170HP) -- even if there is no 2.0T next year in the US, you can almost be certain that the 1.8T will put out NO LESS than 180HP in any Audi of America car.

    a 3.0 or possibly a 2.9T as the step up car -- but if there is a 200HP (minimum) 2.0T car, the current 3.0 will seem like too much money for too little performance, and even premium content will not woo an extra $4 - $8,000 from many buyers -- power seat or no; so my guess is the luxury sport A4 will have to crank up the power and torque somehow, no matter what engine displacement number graces the back end (therefore, my opinion: the logical choice, a 2.9T A4)

    then for "balls out" eat my rubber, burn my dust performance (and an M3 competitor at thousands less than the Bimmer) a 4.2 S4 with at least a published HP rating of 340 (just like in the current S6 -- and possibly 360HP if the long promised W12 shows up on this side of the Atlantic in any flavor Audi "8" A8, A8L or S8.)

    The dealers would like this, the aftermarket tuners would probably like this, Audi would like this because it would genuinely differentiate Audi from the constant move upmarket of VW. On that last point, remember that in April 2002 there will be a sub $38,000 8 cylinder leather-lined, AWD, bi-Xenon headlighted, Monsoon sound system equipped, 17 inch tired 275HP Passat for Pete's sake. It will be over $5 or $6,000 less than an A6 3.0 (and by comparison the Audi will look expensive and anemic).

    Audi needs to "up the performance ante" in a concomitant fashion (like VW, i.e.) to keep the marketplace of both new and current Audi owners firmly able to differentiate their image of Audi from VW. And, then, wham! a short 10 or so months later a 12 cylinder VW Phaeton that in test reports is "only" $5K north of an S6 and performs better -- both in straight line grunt and curvy road stickyness.

    I think all this stuff will be good for the marketplace, good for the dealers and good for those of us that lust after ever more higher performing Audi cars -- god, I hope we can still afford them.

    The most expensive Audi I have ever had was over $60K (a Pearl White 1997 A8 with the sport wheel option and all the power doo-dads). And my current all options except Pearl White paint A6 4.2 was "only" $54K. That is still a very far cry from $71K for a VW.

    Takes your breath away, doesn't it? How much will these new A4's rise in price? And, then what about the A6's and of course what amount of coin will an S8 with a W12 command?

    Help, I'm getting dizzy.
  • jdbtensaijdbtensai Member Posts: 122
    that's a post.
    i want to respond more later.
    for now, i would love to see a 350hp s4 with the 2.9t, not the 4.2.
    leave the 4.2 for the 6 and 8.

    top speed in america? who cares, eh? my car goes 142, i think. never even come close to finding out though.
    those big v8's (and more) are great in germany, i'd imagine. but no one in america cruises for hours at 100+ mph. though i'd love to if it were safe and legal. but then that gets to the bad drivers in america. which is a whole 'nother story.
  • mbnut1mbnut1 Member Posts: 403
    I am I correct in my understanding the the 2.0 would have balance shafts?
  • markcincinnatimarkcincinnati Member Posts: 5,343
    Well, one would think so -- might be a pretty rough dude without them, don't you think?

    As I said before, spy shots, rumors, probabilities but not 100% certainties abound about the '03 and even '04 Audis. I'm betting the 2.0T will be here if not in model year '03 then at least in calendar '03.

    But, like a lot of us rabid Audi fans -- there is at this point much rumor mongering and only less than 100% certainty.

    I will certainly take a wager (for fun) that we will never again see the Audi 1.8T in the US at less than 180HP and that we will very probably see the minimum Audi engine have 200HP -- soon.
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