Audi A4 2004 and earlier

jaystizo · February 2002

Has anyone heard any plans regarding the marriage of these 2 options?

wmquan · February 2002

Does anyone know:

1) Who makes Audi's ESP system (e.g. Bosch, Continental-Teves)?

2) Is the Audi's ESP system "full-range?" That is, does it also fully engage while braking the vehicle (instead of letting ABS take full control)? My understanding is that BMW's and MB's systems are full-range, whereas Toyota's VSC and Acura's VSA are not (under braking, the system is purely ABS).

Thanks!

nyccarguy · February 2002

Audi's ESP system is made by none other than Mercedes-Benz (probably developed in part with bosch). If you look an an Audi brochure or maybe even on their website in the fine print that nobody reads on the back page it says: ESP is a registered trademark of Daimler-Chrysler, AG.

markcincinnati · February 2002

Go here for more information:

http://www.abs-education.org/

Or here for a demonstration:

http://www.bosch.de/k/en/esp/index_flash.htm

mbnut1 · February 2002

Mark I was asking if you were refering to the engine described on the Audi Web site below which isn't currently available in NA cars. I asked because in the description below it isn't turbocharged.

Note that it says that it has a balancer shaft for "excellent refinement". This is a additional shaft that is increasing being placed in engine configurations that aren't inhernetly balanced such as inline fours and v-6's. The new 3.0 V-6 has one as well as the new generation of Japanese 4 cylinders.

The new 2.0-litre engine

The other newcomer in the range of petrol engines for the new Audi A4 is the inline four-cylinder engine with a displacement of 1984 cc. This engine, with five valves per cylinder, reaches its peak torque of 195 Nm at 3300 rpm.

This unit achieves its maximum power output of 96 kW (130 bhp) at 5700 rpm. It propels the A4 saloon with front-wheel drive and 5-speed manual gearbox to 100 km/h in 9.9 seconds, and on to a top speed of 212 km/h. And in view of the fact that this model only consumes 7.9 litres of fuel per 100 km (1999/100 EC), these figures certainly are impressive.

The most important technical innovations:

Continual intake camshaft adjustment for optimum engine charging
Mapped cooling improves efficiency
New two-position variable intake manifold for full torque and high performance
Balancer shaft for excellent refinement

wmquan · February 2002

Thanks for the info on Audi's ESP. It does make sense now that it is Bosch's (or Continental Teeves) system since Audi wouldn't be able to use the ESP trademark without proper license.

ESP was developed jointly between MB and Bosch. However, Continental-Teeves also provides ESP implementations for some MB vehicles (S-class) while Bosch provides implementations for other MB vehicles (e.g. the S-class).

I'd imagine the systems are quite similar, though tuned differently to account for different customer/vehicle targets. Wonder how current the software releases are with what MB has in its vehicles? Probably not noticeable anyway.

Anyway, it's an excellent system. Has anyone noticed if it's fairly aggressive (e.g. intervenes in a lot more situations) or seems to hardly go off at all (I realize one needs a baseline to truly answer this)? Some folks think the BMW and MB ones are too aggressively tuned, while some folks think the Subaru VDC system is too timidly tuned. I'd imagine with the A4's target of being a sports sedan, and having quattro and good handling dynamics in the first place, that the ESP would be tuned to be non-aggressive?

audibon · February 2002

Markcincinnati:
I can't agree with you more concerning last years choice between the 1.8T and the 2.8. We gave up some amenities but felt the trade off was worth it. We couldn't afford an S4 or an A6 so we leased an A4 1.8T just about loaded to the gills with what we wanted. In retrospect the aluminum trim is a nice change from the wood that is so prolific in all luxury cars now including Audi. The other options were take it or leave for me but power seats were a big issue with my wife but couldn't see $5k going toward power seats when that was her only sticking point so we compromised. When the lease is over I'd like to get an A6 2.7T (6spd please!) but wonder if that car will even be around when we turn our car in. One can only hope. My friend is in the same quandry this year with his choice being the 3.0 but after driving the 1.8T back to back with a 3.0 it is very hard to knock the turbo engine. It has that low end torque and just wants to rev so nice to redline! And torque gives one that impression of a quick 0-60 because it launches off the line so well. He has driven an S4 and an A6 2.7T (6spd!) liked both but is torn. We would like to drive a BMW 540i with 6spd but they are hard to find. The 3 series and M cars are very nice but my friend likes the room of the Audi trunks (a golfer) and of course quattro is great. So, Audi really is caught with their hands in the cookie jar, with VW repositioning itself and Audi not quite sure what it really should do in the U.S. I hope they get their priorities in order and have the lineups make some sense. Happy motoring.
Brian

markcincinnati · February 2002

The A4 1.8T -- elsewhere, but NOT in the US -- can be had with leather, sat nav, power seats, and other amenities (aka options) that for some reason are deselected by AoA.

I would think that allowing all possible options (for a given family, e.g., A4, A6, etc) would increase sales, increase market share, etc.

Let me tell you about something I did last night:

I went on-line to the VW of Germany web site, and clicked on Passat W8 "konfigurator." The car could be ordered with many colors metallic and pearlescent. Three interior seat/fabric combinations were available, including leather+alcantara over Recaro sport seats.

Full graphical sat-nav, avail; tip or 6spd manual, parktronic (park distance alert) and on and on and on. Pretty much EVERY possible option that Audi offers was available on the W8 -- when fully configured a price came up -- depending on which sat nav package I configured the price was between 42,000 - and 47,000 Euro (one Euro = .89 Dollar, approximately). Wheel choices, transmission choices, summer package, winter package, built in TV tuner, sound systems, etc etc.

On the Audi site, same thing -- I got tired of translating the German, so I went onto Audi of the UK's site -- and all the options that were avail on the W8 Passat were also available on an A6 2.7T -- and a lot more than we can have here were showcased too (on the UK Audi site, that is).

The Audi did cost a lot more -- and truth be told, I still think the Audi is the more upscale and more sporting of the two (and an A6 is physically more car than a Passat W8). Apparently there is "no worry" about the poor consumer not being able to differentiate between the -- some might argue -- fraternal twin divisions of VW (Audi AG and VW AG).

We do get some very nice Audi's here in the US, we are not allowed to get the combinations and permutations of them that ARE available on the other side of the Atlantic. And, the VW's that are shipped over the water are "watered down" -- big time.

I would think if Europeans can discriminate between and among cars that we too are at least educable.

I say bring the A3, S3 to the US, allow the A4 to have all options available that are available elsewhere. VW of America and Audi of America would, it seems to me, sell more cars in combination than they do currently.

And, unless there is something going on that I don't know about (which there probably is) allow all the transmission engine combinations (within the engines that have been determined "appropriate" for North America) that European customers can have.

To clarify -- I am not suggesting a 1.8T A6 -- but that IS available in Europe. AoA believes, and I agree, that the minimum engine for an A6 here in lala land should be the 3.0 V6. But, in Europe this engine is available with either an auto or manual transmission. I know it was "tried" here in the US in either 1999 or 2000 or 2001 with the 2.8 engine, and apparently it was not popular. But, the person who used to own my dealership claimed that it was more popular (in terms of inquiries) than inventory allocations suggested. But when you only have one or two to choose from, it makes it more difficult to sell.

I have stated before -- mass customization (and I have been to the factory in Ingolstadt 6 times and I know how highly automated it is) IS possible. Many (at my dealer, MOST) Audi's sold in the US are ordered cars, not sold off the lot -- so why not allow the customer to pick and choose the car he/she really wants? Packages are fine -- but sometimes it makes sense to allow the customer to have leather seats and no sunroof and not pay extra for the privilege.

I want the sunscreen, but not the solar sunroof -- at one point, you could not have one without the other. Then next year, the premium package contains the Xenon lights but not the homelink transmitter. Maybe there are economies of scale (and there almost certainly are). But I see no reason that one should not be able to order sport suspension and comfort seats -- but sometimes the package is sport suspension, sport seats and bigger wheels and summer tires.

One of our fellow posters on Edmunds wanted a sport suspension in his A6 2.7T (timcar) but did not want sport seats. He elected to go without the sport suspension. On the German VW website, it is possible to mix and match -- and even more so on the British Audi site.

When I went to college and took business courses, I was always taught to let the customer give you money if that is what the customer wants to do. I want to give them my money, but for what I want.

I guess there will be NO Audi car available (possible exception the new S4) with a 4.2 engine and a manual transmission. So be it. But if the cars imported into the US have "forced" options -- well, I just find it either frustrating and/or disappointing.

Take my money, please (for what I want to buy).

btr1 · February 2002

lauk0dg · February 2002

There are lots of rumors out there saying the 1.8T engines on ALL VW/Audi vehicles are actually 180hp since they got to US. Believe it or not.

Audi's explanation is that, the engine orientation in the A4 is different than the Jetta/GTI/TT orientation.....longitudinal vs traverse. The header and ducting are of course different and VW/Audi claimed that's why it has a different output.

However, that's different from the fact that the A4 2.8 engine puts out 190hp while the A6 2.8 engine puts out 200hp. That's strictly a programming issue and there are guys out there that had tried (and I think some of them succeeded) to make the computer "think" it's inside an A6 and pumps out 200hp instead of 190hp.

Billy

markcincinnati · February 2002

Yep same engine in Audi and VW's -- HP has been stated at 150, 170, 180 and 225 from the VW and/or Audi "factory."

Rumor had it that the A4 1.8T in 2001 DID indeed have same HP as the base TT (180HP). Depending on application, the 1.8T which is in many different cars (all the way to the Passat in the US to the A6 in Europe) has numbers all over the place.

AoA is NOT pleased that any VW sharing the 1.8T engine exceeds 170HP -- my guess is this will be corrected ASAP -- probably in the 2003 model cars. There is a 2.0T engine as we speak that is also strongly rumored to be coming at least in the top of the line 2003 TT -- where it will be rated at 245HP.

I have speculated and laid out my reasons that I think the base US A4's will soon have HP numbers that begin with a 2 (200) and if that is wrong at least with a 19 (195). This is very typical of what is done for bragging rights reasons. The 2.8 A4 was 190 HP in the US, the 2.8 in the A6 was 200HP, the 2.8 in Germany in an A6 was 193HP. The 2.8 in the Passat is 190HP, etc etc.

I think pressure from AoA and its dealers will force the issue -- no more VW's with higher than Audi ratings -- it just wouldn't do. My timing may be wrong, but I suspect that we will see a 2.0T A4 and that something will have to happen with the 3.0 A4 when that happens, since the differences between a 2.0T and 3.0 A4 in terms of performance and price/performance will almost certainly favor the 2.0T.

We must deal with engineering, marketing, positioning in the "market's mind", that is and cost to bring something to market -- not to mention customer acceptance with their dollars. VW is over the next 9 - 18 months making some very major upmarket moves (in the US especially). Audi must be able to differentiate itself in light of this in addition to the normal competitive forces it faces from "non parent" companies, such as BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar, Saab and Volvo to name but a few. Audi's must move upscale in at least one way, it could be sportiness, luxury, technology -- or some or all of these at once.

Of course, moving upscale probably means up in the price class too.

Audi's have, when compared with BMW's for example, always been of lower cost (and I think of higher value). If you configure an A4 and a "comparable" 3 series, the BMW generally is many thousands higher in MSRP (plus the A4 will be a quattro). Compare a maxed out A4 3.0 quattro sport with the other apple -- a BMW 330xi with as close to the same content as possible. The Bimmer is way more money (if their web sites are accurate in their configurators). So now with VW moving up in the world, perhaps to where the Audi's used to be in comparative terms price wise, where else but up can the Audi MSRP go?

Audi of Americal will "compell" (beg? lobby? cajole?) Audi AG to only bring models that are clearly capable of being in the US marketplace clearly differentiated from VW. And, boy oh boy is this going to be difficult with the introduction of just 2 little ol cars -- a Passat (quattro) W8 and a Phaeton (quattro) W12 -- at $37,900 and $71,000 respectively. Have you priced an A8 recently? Do you know what $37,900 gets you in an A4, let alone the A6 3.0's price which is way more than $37,900 for instance.(?)

You "heard it here first" -- the content, engine output, luxury, sport and PRICE of Audi's is on the launching pad, ready for blast off: UP UP and AWAY. Unless VW and Audi want to be seen as the Taurus Sable twins, what other alternative do they have (in the US)?

Of course VW's wil (and already are) going to move up in price (and content and capability), too.

There will be more mid and top end choices from VW and AoA -- save your pennies, er, save your dollars and you too can move up with them.

I can't wait -- and I hope I can continue to afford them!

uhclem6 · February 2002

Hey all. My just purchased (used) '01 1.8T had about 15K miles when I purchased it. I'm discovering a rather annoying sqeak in the driver's seat--it sqeaks when I lean back and when I go up and down. Since much city driving forces my body to do both of these things, the squeaking gets kind of annoying.

Wondering if anyone else has had this problem, and whether or not it might be covered under warranty (if so I probably won't bother with it until its 20K maintainance)

Thanks,
Jon

sjmurray2 · February 2002

Anyone recently purchase a 2002 A4 3.0 Quattro? I would like to know what a dealer might except. Can I get this car for 1000-1500 over invoice?

Scott

lauk0dg · February 2002

I didn't have the problem until I got my car back from the dealership having an oil change at 15k miles (what a coincidence). I didn't even want to know what those guys did to my poor baby.

Anyhow it squeaks when I leaned back. And then I twisted the knob for the seatback just a little bit and it stopped squeaking. Try it.....hopefully it will work.

Billy

no3on · February 2002

Can anyone here tell me what a fair price will be for an A4 Avant 3.0 QMS, Xenon, Heated seats and Leatherette in the North East?

tiredofmanual · February 2002

I visited my local Audi dealer yesterday and wasn't too happy with the salesman. I got the feeling that he didn't believe I could afford an A4. I was also made aware that the A4 optioned as I would want it does not and will not exist at that dealership, but if I was willing to place a $1000 deposit he could order one for me. I told him to call me if he found anything similar and left. The experience wasn't enough to turn me away from the A4, but instead I'm just going to wait until the spring or summer of 2003 and see if engine choices change, as well as go to a different dealership.

Hopefully by then the fuel gauge problem will be solved and the power will be increased so I don't have to turn to the aftermarket. A 2.0T with a balancing shaft would be a sweet engine. Smooth, too.

lauk0dg · February 2002

Gotta remember that next time.

Here's the link that I posted the original message at:

http://forums.audiworld.com/a4/msgs/1045734.phtml

Billy

lauk0dg · February 2002

Actually my buying experience was about the same. The original salesman was so rude that I almost wanted to leave the dealership when he transferred me to another salesguy. He's very nice and told me up front how much he can take off at the minimum.

I was checking the stickers on the 02 A4's in the dealer's lot 2 weeks ago when I was in for 15k oil change. I found out that most of the A4's are loaded to the gills. 8 out of 10 of them got sports package (those 17" rims are very nice) and almost everything except Nav, and the other 2 without sports pkg were totally stripped down versions. In other words if you only want a sunroof and Bose (for example) but you don't want Sports pkg or butt warmers, chances are you really need to order one from the factory.

Billy

tiredofmanual · February 2002

Actually, the only options I care about are the sport package and the xenon lights. The dealer made it clear that the sunroof and heated seats might as well be required options up here in Chicagoland. Neither of those options nor the premium package are worth $5 to me so why pay for them and why insinuate that I want to pass on them because they would put the car out of my price range? I can accept that my desires put me in the A4 minority and that I most likely would have to order for this combination.

markcincinnati · February 2002

I'm with you see my post 3207 -- Not in the US. I have no problem ordering a car -- I do not need to go to the dealer on Saturday and drive it off the lot on Monday -- especially since I want the car equipped the way I want it and am willing to wait and pay for it.

My problem is not with my dealer at least, but with those who make the decisions for me concerning the mixing and matching of options interiors with exteriors etc. I assume that our choices of packages are determined by Audi management -- AoA? I suspect.

And, I know there are economic constraints -- and once, I did order an Audi without a sunroof. The dealer took my order and told me that if I were buying the car (I was leasing) that I would regret the lack of sunroof because they increase the value of the car at trade in time. But I ordered my sunroofless Audi and everyone seemed happy. I also bought a 1987 5000 turbo quattro which was at that moment, the top of the heap -- I ordered it without leather (which as I recall was a no cost option) and with Pearl White paint. No eyebrows raised but I now would not repeat that again (hard to keep clean, etc). Finally, I really wanted an Audi 4000S without power steering -- guess what, they ordered me one and it came in just as I wanted! This was 1982 and before the much nicer power steering technology we have today. I also ordered fog lights on this car and although they were installed at the dealership the toggle switch on the dash was factory original and again, I got exactly what I wanted.

My point is in agreement, obviously with yours, I "used to" feel I could get exactly what I wanted, now I take packages and I usually take both premium and convenience packages because neither one of them have exactly what I want -- so I get both. And the beat goes on.

The situation, Bryan, is probably not unique to Audi -- although I find your dealer's near accusation of your ability to pay, as a motive to or not to order a car with or without specific options, rude and counter productive (if you want to sell cars that is).

I say give the customer the choice and perhaps if the customer's choice is costly or odd (like Pearl White paint is costly, for example) charge extra for it and let the customer vote with his/her dollars. To peat and repeat, if there is an Audi 4.2 with a stickshift produced, I would like the ability to buy it, and not be forced to take the automatic. And my list of "I would like to be able to order" goes on and on.

Keep the [Audi] faith -- the market is smarter than Audi or us. I think the market will enable mass customization, in the relatively near future.

tiredofmanual · February 2002

They lower the stiffness of the body structure and reduce interior headroom. Also, you have to worry about them squeaking and leaking after a few years. If these aren't problems on Audis, then I have no problem with one. I would just have to give it some thought on whether it is worth $1000. If it is indeed rare to see a sunroof-less Audi, then ordering one just for resale value might make sense.

lauk0dg · February 2002

You are in Chicagoland? Me too, so is Audibon. Which dealership did you go? I got mine at Schaumburg Audi. Very good price, although you need to know who you talk to over there. Email me if you want more info. I did pick up my car from the dealer's lot cuz I saw one that's what I want except it doesn't have xenons. No worries, I got aftermarket ones now and they are as good as the stock ones.

I'm involved in the Quattro Club here in Chicago and quite honestly, I haven't seen an Audi without a sunroof (OK not the TT's). Quite frankly if you order an A4 w/o a sunroof I'd think it'd drop the resale value here in Chicago. Justifying spending $1k on a sunroof, I know it's hard.....lucky for us on 2001.5 we get the sunroof and homelink for $500 :> But you guys get in-dash CD Changer and ESP standard.

Good luck!

Billy

charliemike · February 2002

I believe that the reason that we cannot get a car a la carte here in the U.S. is mainly because marketing drives business here. I believe that VW/Audi of America are nothing more than marketing offices and have nothing to do with design or manufacturing of the cars they sell. They do focus groups, market research, and ouji boards to figure out what is going to sell. All this despite the fact that it has been proven time and again that more choices = more sales ... It's sad. Nissan is the most egregious offender of any I know, but the fact that VW/Audi allows it in their home market and not here makes it inexcusable.

merckx · February 2002

I am in complete agreement about loading sport sedans. I've admired Mercedes for some time,for example,but as time goes on they come with an ever increasing list of useless standards.
I certainlly don't mind paying for things like the pleasing thunk of the doors or the stoutness of controls like the turn signal lever. And of course to make a car drive the way an Audi or BMW does costs money-that's the raison d'etre of the car.
I had guessed that as it has become increasingly costly to engineer these cars,they assumed customers wouldn't pay unless they added a veneer of several thousand dollars of Cadillac-like "luxury" items.
Mercedes in particular almost seems to hold the US customer hostage. If you want to buy one of their beautiful CL coupes,you've got to buy a $2,000 navigation system(ugly,useless clutter)and a $600 wood steering wheel,for example.

This has long set my teeth on edge...

tiredofmanual · February 2002

Yes in fact it was Schaumburg Audi. I hope I don't sound bitter over all of this, it's just that I'm interested in a sports sedan, not a luxury car. I do feel that this treatment may have been a blessing in disguise, as I probably was rushing into things. Waiting until next summer would allow me to make a very large downpayment, I would get the 2nd model year (by then I'm sure Audi has all the kinks out), and possibly a better engine. It will also allow me to see the Mazda 6. It is a very sharp looking car and the pictures of the interior are very nice. The handling will be world-class and if Mazda gets the performance, quality, and refinement right (hey, it might happen) then the 6 may be a better car for me. After all, Mazda doesn't have to live up to a reputation as a luxury nameplate. The 6 could be a pure sports sedan.

Billy, I'll get back to you around the end of the year or early next year about who to talk to at Schaumburg Audi.

markcincinnati · February 2002

I agree 100% -- the decisions that have been made are highly influenced by marketing. But, here are a couple of observations that make me wonder if they don't market something and "see if it will sell."

I have every option on my 2001 A6 4.2 that was in the book at the time except Pearl White Paint. There was (I think it was anyway) a premium package which included Xenon headlights and a power rear sunshade and manual side sunshades and something else I can't remember. Then there was the sport package which included big wheels and tires, sport suspension and sport seats. Then Navigation which included rear only parktronic and sat nav-lite, and then there was a stand alone option of rear seat airbags. If my details are not 100% accurate -- no matter -- the accuracy of them is not relevant. The point is, that the packages I described were only packages for one model year. They were not available configured thusly in 2000 or in 2002 (although it is possible to end up with everything that I have on my 2001, except there is not now, today a "factory phone" option (which I also have.)

Who decides that Xenons are to be in the premium package and not the sport package or not the convenience package? What market survey was done. I have had two dozen Audis and they don't initiate marketing surveys to me -- I write letters and send them e-mail suggestions.

As I mentioned, timcar -- another participant of this town hall (A6) -- wanted comfort seats and sport suspension. No dice.

Many more colors and combinations of options and engine and transmission actually do exist and a highly modern automated system is employed to make hundreds of thousands of Audis every year. When touring the factory, you will see an assembly line with all kinds of A4's, S4's (at the time) and European ones and "American" ones going down the line based on a Master Production Schedule which is based on "customer" orders.

Literally you will see a bright yellow S4 with all the doo dads on it followed by a plain white A4 with a 1.6 liter engine and plain seats, followed by a US bound fully loaded A4 (you can generally tell if it is US bound because of the instrument cluster, or during one of my visits a "US" center high mounted brake light).

If a customer wants to configure a car, it is possible and probably (with the exception of the Pearl Paint) no more expensive to configure a US bound car than an Austrian bound car (identically that is).

In Ingolstadt there must be dozens of different colors available for Audis -- we get 8 or 10 -- MAYBE? Two years ago on the showroom floor one example of every possible Audi was on display in "light silver metallic" with a camel LEATHER interior -- it was beautiful. It cannot be had in the US.

Yes it (the situation we have been discussing and I have been lameting) is somehow related to marketing, but I believe that with more choices and more flexibility in the ordering process, there would be more money spent by present and future Audi (and other brands) customers.

And, I too have NEVER seen (in the past 10 years, probably) any US Audi (TT excluded as well as the rag tops) that did not have a sunroof. Yet, I also see no reason that if a customer doesn't want one that he/she shouldn't be able to get it they way that they want. Also, I have never had air or water leakage or rattles in any Audi factory sunroof -- so if you want one, here's a testimonial: They do not have any inherent problems (other than they do reduce headroom somewhat).

I get so confused sometimes (and sometimes angry and disappointed) that I can't "hold the pickles, hold the mustard, add extra cheese and toast the bun" when I order a product that costs between $30,000 and $90,000.

Next year it will be Xenon lites and Bose system packaged together and they'll call it the Night Rider Package. Go figure.

lauk0dg · February 2002

Yup definitely give yourself plenty of time to put a big downpayment and to shop around for the right kind of car.....even after you decide which one to get, you should go around different dealerships and let them deal against each other to get the best price.....I had only checked 3 out of the 7 Audi dealerships in Chi-town, but I figured I bought mine at $600 over invoice can't be that bad.

The Mazda 6 definitely looks sharp.....it's definitely not like the Camry which Toyota just slaps some SE badges on, put some non all-season high perf tires on and be called a sports sedan. The only thing I don't like about the Mazda 6 is its size. It's too big for my liking. One big thing I like about my A4 is its size and agility. I've seen the Protege5 interior and it looks nice, but there's no way a Japanese car's interior will look as nice as an Audi's. Not even a Lexus, in my opinion.

Good luck and yeah let me know when you decide to write the check. If I were you I will probably do what I did last year and buy it around end of the month. My salesguy told me they need to make the quota and the sales manager is more willing to deal around the end of a month.

Billy

tcasboy · February 2002

I went to my local Audi dealer (Mobile, AL) several time to test drive the 2001 A4. I wanted the 1.8T, 5 speed and cloth seats. Sunroof maybe but nothing else, at least to start. The dealer told me nobody would have them that way and they weren't interested in ordering a car for me. Hard to imagine you wouldn't order a car and make a tasty profit for filling out some paper work and prepping the car for delivery. This dealer received only automatic and the vinyl seats (leatherette, which they kept reminding me was a no-cost option). I looked in Orlando and called dealers from Houston to Orlando and found several close to what I wanted on the lot at various times, and when I decided to buy I found one in Atlanta configured almost exactly how I wanted it. (5 speed, celebration pkg, sport seats (cloth), sport pkg and xenons). It took a lot of work to find the right combo because it was near the end of the model year (2001) but worth the effort to get exactly what I wanted at that price point. I've had to do this with other vehicle brands also as it seems that most salepeople just want to move whats on the lot that day or what they normally move, regardless of what people want. Funny how everybody buys them the way the dealer configures them when the dealer doesn't allow any deviation!?! This experience was not nearly as difficult as trying to find a Harley just the way I wanted it (did that in 2000), if that is any consolation for anybody trying to find the perfect A4. I would strongly recommend the A4 however, it is a great car and you should continue to compare it with the Mazda 6 when your buying time draws near.

hfb · February 2002

Presently looking A4 3.0Q silver/ebony leather, SP, PP, sunroof, heated seats, xenon and Bose. Dealer said MSRP was $39,460 and offered to sell for $38,700. My Edmunds info tells me MSRP should be $39,010 (including destination fee) so what am I missing. Also I think the offer is high by about $1,000. Would appreciate comments.

markcincinnati · February 2002

When he said "Funny how everybody buys them the way the dealer configures
them when the dealer doesn't allow any deviation!?! "

Amen.

Remeber I told you that my dealer said that the manual A6 2.8 that was discontiued due to customer demand WAS very highly "demanded" -- based on inquiries, but not based on sales. Why? Because he couldn't get many of them so it is obvious you can't sell what you ain't got and perhaps people who went ahead and ordered them were somehow discouraged from doing so?!? Makes me wonder.

The manual transmission is dead, long live the manual transmission (for example).

lauk0dg · February 2002

Also check out the invoice price on your combo at Edmunds. It helped me a lot when dealing with the salesguy. Work your way up from the invoice rather than down from the MSRP. $450 difference.....I bet it's the metallic paint option that you forgot to check on Edmunds. The color you want is not black, white or red, right? (those colors are free, otherwise all colors except pearlescent white is a $450 option, the pearlescent white is not an option on the 02 A4 3.0, interesting)

Good luck on bargaining!

Billy

black_tulip · February 2002

Has anyone heard about this pedal breaking Story?

I hope the media does not blow it out of proportion, like they did in the '80s.

2ndmb · February 2002

What a nice car! Drove the BMW 330ix and there was no comparison. The A4 is quiet, handles great (with sports pkg) and looks very sharp. The MSRP on mine was just over 39k and dealer discount was 2k (ny/nj area). Only 500 miles but so far I'm very pleased.

rj1234 · February 2002

Hi,

I live in Seattle and am thinking of buying an A4 1.8T tip. Do any of you know how far off of MSRP dealers are going in this area? I'll try to work up from invoice but that may be hard. The invoice for the car I have in mind is 29,272, MSRP is 32,095, Edmunds TMV is 31,934. I'm trying to figure out how much I should offer. If any of you have bought A4's in the Seattle area recently I'd love to hear how much below MSRP your deal was. I'm also going to try some dealers within a 100 mile radius of Seattle.

Thanks

mlmurray · February 2002

I'm considering an A4 3.0 CVT and would like to here comments about seat comfort on long trips (4 to 6 hours).

Thanks,

Mark

davking · February 2002

We have found our 01 A4 1.8T with quattro, sports suspension, and 17 inches wheels/tires to be very comfortable on long trips. It makes long trips shorter, too.

mbnut1 · February 2002

Just drove the new A4. Without the sport package the new car is very comfortable. With the sport package it is noticabley stiffer and you will feel higway expansion joints. For the reduced comfort the sport package makes the car very sports car like. The seats feel pretty much the same as the last model which means excellent comfort and support.

jagboyxkr · February 2002

I'm about to purchase a new car, and the new Audi A4 is one of the top cars on my list, however, I also really like the new Jaguar X-Type and have been loyal to Jaguar for a long time. Which one should I choose, and for what reasons? Thank you for your time and effort.

wvumtneer · February 2002

does anyone know if audi is planning to offer the CVT with quattro AWD in the future? It is currently only availble with the fwd version. I also heard rumors of a coupe version of the A4, has anyone else?

scirocco22 · February 2002

wvumtneer-- I'm sure Mark will respond in one of his informative but "short" responses. *lol*

jagboyxkr-- This article from Edmunds sums it up pretty concisely IMO. http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/roadtests/roadtest/48463/article.html This article was testing a pre-production model so hopefully an updated review will give better results.

rj1234-- *here we go again* heh, since nobody has yet responded, give me an email if you'd like the results of my research and my humble opinions of Seattle area dealers.

--'rocco

lauk0dg · February 2002

Rumors are that Audi is working on pairing up Quattro and CVT but so far nobody can give an exact time when that will happen. I'd be really interested in this combo.

The coupe version of the A4 is not a rumor anymore. The A4 Cabrio is coming late 2002 or early 2003 with a 3.0 engine in it. However it doesn't have Quattro, at least not in the early production ones that come to the US. However the Cabrio with Quattro should show up in US (instead of them keeping the nice ones in Germany :> )

Billy

nyccarguy · February 2002

Did anybody happen to catch the Audi commercial during the USA/Canada Hockey Game? There was a full shot of the Cabrio with what appeared to be Sports package (17" Avus Wheels). Beautiful car! I'm sure the coupe will be equally as breathtaking.

markcincinnati · February 2002

VW and Audi are now officially in separate "auto groups" -- Audi will be in the group that has the sportiest (and some could argue, most expensive) pedigree.

Evidence of this will begin showing up in a recently "leaked" (announced?) Audi 2 seater with a mid-engine V8: estimated price when this hits the market -- $75,000.

Audi is, over the next few months, moving their products up market -- over on Audi world, there is a feature on the allroad 4.2 and we've already lusted on this board over the hoped for S4 and the RS6.

Looking at the situation that seems to be developing (as a long time Audi owner and fan) here is what appears to be shaping up (and this notion came to me while I was looking at the new issue of a british auto magazine, CAR -- where there was a full color two page Passat W8 advertisement): the next VW's coming out will be positioned, adjusted for inflation, about where Audi's were a few years ago when compared to BMW. In other words, the new VW's will be to Audi's where Audi's were in comparison to BMW's (price wise).

Audi will "compete" with BMW and will move agressively upwards in terms of performance and sportiness (luxury will not be left out, but the character of the cars will be sporty rather than luxury). VW will compete with Audi, BMW and Mercedes for a few iterations of its models as it moves into more luxury oriented territory.

I had been wondering how they were going to accomplish this with the current line of Audi and VW cars which seem to share many things in common. The Audi A3 vs the VW Golf, the Audi A8 vs the VW Phaeton, the Audi A4/A6 vs the Passat W8 and even the "regular" Passat with 4motion and the 2.8 V6.

The TT while it shares many parts with "lesser" VW's is a clue to the Audi move toward a much sportier image -- no more "Audi's are just expensive VW's" from nay sayers. No more Tauris Sable twins, is my way of putting it.

Audi's will have more HP, agressive suspensions and agressive "looks" than VW's over the next few years. The VW suv will be a more truck like version of the Porsche SUV and so on.

All of this means perhaps that Audi's and VW's are and will over time push upwards (price wise) as there is apparently more room at the top.

$37,900 VW's, $71,000 VW's and $75,000 Audi two seater sports cars may make sense.

Stay tuned.

P.S.

I looked at a new A8L yesterday -- it was $71,000 -- dead on the price of the VW Phaeton. See what happens between now and 2004. It could get both exciting and expensive to feed this habit.

bluetrane · February 2002

The one glaring hole in this VW moving upmarket plan may be the dealerships. I cross-shopped a number of vehicles before ordering the A4, and the Passat was one of them. The dealership experience reminded me of the standard Toyota/Nissan/Ford type experience ("What will it take to get you in a brand new XXX today?") The salesman seemed to know less about the car than I did (and this is not meant to indicate massive knowledge on my part), and the whole place just seemed to not be a place where I would buy a $40K, much less a $70K, car. In contrast, the MB dealership where my current car came from is much more soft music, marble veneer, can-I-get-you-something-to-drink-sir. I get a birthday card from the "sales consultant" every year. Can the current VW dealer network pull this off? Can you sell Bugs and Jettas to recent grads and Phaetons to the stock-option crowd in the same showroom? I kind of doubt it.

Why should any of us care what VW does? I was first drawn to Audi because it represents something of a screaming bargain in this segment - luxury, sport, and at a price tage thousands less than BMW or MB. If Mark is right, those days may be coming to an end. I sure hope not.

markcincinnati · February 2002

was drawn to Audi (and still am -- TODAY) because it was and remains a bargain. And, I can't help but wonder how you can sell a Bug and a Phaeton at the same dealership (but with the right attitude and atmosphere, I suspect it is possible, because the relative differences will not be any greater than the Porsche Audi dealers that sell sub $30,000 A4's and over $110,000 Porsches -- the range in % terms is similar, i.e.). But, I also wonder how in the heck most of the VW dealers are going to address even a Passat W8 shopper.

My dealer experience with Audi is with the "horizontal" sales person. I have to make the first move to get the salesperson to sell me the car -- they are all very low key, they have no lot lizards and the "make me an offer and I'll take it to my boss" -- never happens. I pulled into the VW dealership to look at a Passat (I thought it might be a W8) and a salesperson came out and knew nothing about a nearly $40,000 8 cylinder Passat. He was, however, very interested in my Audi A6 4.2. "I guess this is what our cars will be like in a couple of years, huh?"

The heck of it is, I think that dingbat was correct -- today's Audi is tomorrow's VW.

And, in spite of my earlier speculative comments, as Audi move's up the price scale, they will still be relative to BMW's, bargains. Which is also the position that VW wants to be in relative to MB and Jaguar. 99.9% of the content at 80 -85% of the price (plus all wheel drive across the entire range).

I am interested in watching this unfold and I am at least concerned as to the affordability of these cars that I enjoy so much. As I said, I hope I can continue to afford them.

jagboyxkr · February 2002

As many of you know, the Audis currently available today come with everything and sometimes more than their BMW rivals but for thousands less in price. BMW only gets away with their high prices because people are willing to pay for them and their name, where as Audi did not have BMW's name in the past (in fact it had a down-right bad reputation a decade ago in the U.S.). Audi is just recently becoming popular again with the introduction of the first A4 in 1996, but the Bimmer hype is not quite over yet, so Audi has to do something to beat the competition and their strategy is a lower price and very high (if not better) quality in their products.

The thing to do is buy an Audi now, when the prices are still better than those of BMW and other competing companies, and then allow Audi's name to achieve the status of its rivals. That way, you win both ways. You get a very fine car that you can be happy with, and then its "status" in the automotive world slowly moves up as Volkswagen becomes a luxury brand and Audi becomes a high-end luxury/sport division. To me, you really cannot lose in this situation.

dej0 · February 2002

Hey Gang,
I agree that I think it is kind of crazy for VW to offer $40+ cars. It seems to me they are following the Toyota model. You can buy an Echo for $10k or a Land Cruiser for $50k with a nav system. My local Toyota dealer was pretty low key when I went in, but the VW dealer was very aggressive. Maybe they will learn. Toyota did push most of their lux cars into the Lexus mark, just as VW seems to be with Audi. I do think it is weird for VW to keep the $70k and $40k vehicles under their own badging. But if Toyota can keep their expensive SUV's under their own badging, maybe VW will be succesful too.
Saw the picts of the A4 convertible on the Audi World site (www.audiworld.com). Really made me wish I had waited a while before ordering my new A4. Still, in four years when my 2 year old is really ready to ride in the back of a convertible might be more realistic. I think I still have one more month before the new car gets here.

nyccarguy · February 2002

So the saga has ended. The dealership replaced the entire instrument cluster (again) and my friend's Amulet Red '02 3.0Q 6-Speed is as good as new. Everytime he's in the car he says how much he loves it, the ride, the handling, the smoothness of the engine. For those of you shopping, if the dealer you're at has an Amulet Red car with a Sports Package on the lot, its worth a look. Beautiful!

nyccarguy · February 2002

I don't want to start an Audi vs. BMW argument here by any means, but people do not buy BMWs just for the name. BMWs and Audis each have wonderful qualities as automobiles for the badge snob as well as the performance guru. Audis are less expensive because they can charge less for their cars and still maintain a good profit. Audi/VW employs the wonderful technology of platform sharing which greatly reduces their cost. Audi/VW is the industry leader in this field.

markcincinnati · February 2002

My Audi dealer has given me a 2002 A4 1.8T quattro with sport pkg, upgraded sound system (the Bose audio pckg) as well as some other things I can't remember now -- it has a tiptronic.

I love everything about this car -- except the transmission. This car has 3K miles on it, rides and handles great, heated seats here in cold Cincinnati today are fabulous. The D or S position on the shifter do not provide satisfactory results -- either the engine races (S) or lugs (D) -- the shifting itself is smooth and I presume efficient -- the car seems to have been emasculated (or efemulated?) though -- and I have to believe it is the transmission since I have driven an A4 before but with the 6spd.

I love this car, though in EVERY other way -- the ride is very firm AND very comfortable.

Audi A4 2004 and earlier

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