Audi A4 2004 and earlier

andys120 · May 2002

I think I speak for the majority of posters here in feeling the A4 is a better car for the initial outlay. For what a 330xi costs you can be in an S4...now that's sweet!
I have over 80k on my '98 A4Q 2.8 and no major problems, a handful of petty ones. They're great cars.

scirocco22 · May 2002

Tony-- I keep saying that I won't post here anymore but here I am again. To risk being chewed out for contributing to the BMW vs Audi argument again, I'll just say a few words. I agree with what Blaine and Andy have already said ...very good comments. Most of us with quattro do not feel that it is only for driving in the snow but it also enhances the overall driving experience on dry pavement as well. As has been already said, quattro is an advanced engineering feature that just "feels right" as an integral part with Audis. To me, there's nothing more confidence inspiring than to know that all four contact points with the road are propelling you down the road. I doubt that I will ever buy another car without awd and Audi's quattro is the best out there ...as I've proclaimed before, I am a true quattroholic!

As for the comparison with the 3-series, yes, BMWs are probably one of the best if not THE best for retaining their value over the years. But Audis are much better than average for resale value. Consumer Reports rates the A4 with a half red/half white circle for depreciation.

If you haven't already read the Edmunds' articles that are side-barred on this forum, read the one titled "Road Test: 2002 Audi A4" which is sub-titled: "Close -- Real Close" referring to the comparison with the 3-series. (click here for the article if you can't find it on the left sidebar.) Here's a quotation from that article that sums it up: "While the BMW 330i remains at the head of the class for pure driving enjoyment, Audi has masterfully rendered a more accommodating vehicle in terms of passenger comfort and price premium  a comparatively equipped BMW will cost a few thousand dollars more." This article is comparing the A4 3.0 with the 330i but could generally be applied to a comparison with any A4 vs comparable 3-series.

While I am a BMW fan, I will probably stay loyal to Audi until Audis no longer represent the excellent value which they currently do. Again, if only for the quattro alone, IMHO, Audis represent one of the best values available.

--'rocco

zinzan · May 2002

I am the original owner of a 98 A4 2.8Q with only 32k miles. I like the car and was planning to keep it for another 3-4 years. The dealer's mechanics just informed me that the engine is leaking oil and that the head gaskets are the problem to the tune of $3,500. Needless to say, I'm disappointed.
Is anyone aware of a problem with 98 2.8s or am I just lucky?

JBaumgart · May 2002

I would say you're just UNlucky. Our '98.5 has 49,000 miles and has never leaked oil. The only problem to date has been that front suspension thing - about $1,200 to repair.

1pierce · May 2002

Get the A4. I just completed a VERY intensive comparison between the A4 3.0 and the 325i. I will be getting a 325i. That's because I genuinely feel that I don't need AWD, living in Pittsburgh, and the "quattro feel" couldn't compare to the sporty feel of the 3-series. That said, if I thought I needed AWD, I wouldn't even consider the BMW.

Audi's AWD is far more advanced than BMW's. I think the Subaru system (and the one on a Porsche) are the only ones that compare. Also, from a comfort, value, detail, and build quality standpoint, the A4 matches or beats the 3-series IMO. Its also a beautiful car, with more thoughtful details than I can list. I would bet that it would be about as reliable as a 3-series (they have their niggling problems too - check out consumer reviews on this and other car sites). Also, if you typically endure bad winters, then you won't get a chance to fully enjoy the performance advantage that a Bimmer has over an A4 for much of the year anyway - can't drive that way when the roads are bad.

The only drawback would be resale. Residuals and resale are significantly higher on a BMW. But, so is initial price and negotiating difficulty. So, I'm a believer that those things generally wash out in the end.

Again, I came soooo close to picking the A4. The 325 just felt more like a sports car to me, which I guess is more important to me as I near 40 years old. If we could get a second new car, right now, I would be hot on the heals of a quattro A6 or A4 wagon.

Best of luck.

w210 · May 2002

Remember the relatively high resell of the 3-series in general does not mean the 330ix will have a good resale value.

Besides, the 3 series will have a face lift before the A4 . If you want a 6 cylinder wagon, the Avant A4 3.0 is your only choice as the 330ix does not come in a wagon format I don't think?

markcincinnati · May 2002

I have in-laws in Pittsburgh and I drive between the two cities several times per year -- a lot during the Thanksgiving and December/January Christmas/New Year's holidays. Cincinnati and Pittsburgh IMO have similar weather. My BMW driving friends fundamentally garage their Bimmers when there is snow or slush or worse. They end up driving their SUV's which are OK for such duty but hardly provide the level of safety, comfort and performance of their BMW's or our Audis (we now have 5 staff members with Audis 4 A4's 1 A6).

While I do think the BMW's are excellent cars -- they are mostly fair weather friends. The BMW is great and I am not suggesting otherwise. But beware of getting stuck or "slip sliding away" here in Cincinnati, and when I drive in western PA in the winter, I have found the quattro drive system to be a necessity.

If you live where there is even a light winter, and expect to use a rear wheel drive car, I suggest winter tires (four of them) are crucial.

While I also think you need at least all-season tires on your quattro in the winter, it is possible to go in the snow even with the summer rubber when all wheels are driven.

But, to make certain you don't think that quattro is for winter only, I still find the quattro difference can be appreciated year 'round.

When Audi's weight distribution becomes closer to 50-50, all I can say is BMW "look out!" And, this weight distribution issue should be resolved or substantially minimized in the not too distant future (EC magazine article July 2002)

davking · May 2002

scirocco22 · May 2002

I've been meaning to subscribe for some time now but haven't gotten around to it ...maybe now's the time while I'm thinking of it. Here's the link for their subscription page and free trial:

European Car magazine free trial

EC web-site: http://www.europeancarweb.com/index.shtml

--'rocco

scirocco22 · May 2002

dl7265 · May 2002

What is weather like in Germany ? I just wondered if BMW's were garaged there as well.

Not that RWD would compare with Q , but here in Dallas we typically dont get too much snow but ICE and Sleet much worse driving conditions.Ive driven my RWD 3er (Sport with ZR tires) full time all winter and can say driving skills are more important but the ALL speed traction control is very amazing.

1pierce: you will be just fine with your non sport 3er, if youve lived there long then you know how to drive in those condidtion.

DL

markcincinnati · May 2002

The winters in Germany are very real -- very challenging. However, the past 4 January's (which is when I vacation in Munich) I noticed that virtually all drivers do equip their RWD Bimmers and Mercs with studded snows (all round). Ditto the quattros.

Yet after driving extensively between Ingolstadt, Germany and Seefeld, Austria -- and, courtesy of Audi, driving REAR WHEEL DRIVE A4's -- the verdict is rain, snow, ice, sleet or dry pavement -- AWD is the best system for the world in which we live and drive. Much as I lust -- I drive on US interstates and secondary roads. Perhaps RWD is better for certain things, but I have not found daily, normal driving to be one of them.

I asked the trainers at the [Audi] driving school what they drove in "real life" -- and most of them said AWD -- the one's that didn't said motorcycles. Now the question of what to drive for "racing" -- they all said Porches, and one of them, Walter Rohrl said AWD Porsches.

Go figure.

Drive it like you live!

One of our staff lives in Keller, TX (close to Dallas) -- believes in quattro, believes quattro is his all weather, not just slick streets, friend.

His other car is also AWD -- a pickemup truck!

1pierce · May 2002

We simply do not get that much snow and ice in Pittsburgh. Yes, every fourth or fifth winter, we get a winter where we have snow on the ground continuously for a month. But, the other winters are very light. Last winter, I only had to shovel my driveway one time, and we had maybe 4 driving days where I had to be careful, and none when I thought it best to stay home. I was keeping pretty close track, anticipating a possible RWD purchase.

I have absolutely no doubt that w/all season tires and the stability system on the BMW, I'll be good to go 99% of the time. And for that other 1%, I do have a 4WD pickup with new tires.

1pierce · May 2002

As a former Subaru owner, I will never argue that AWD provides the best traction for all driving conditions. In winter it has no comparison. My point is that unless you live where there is snow fall on a weekly basis, all winter, you can get around just fine with FWD. And,...if you live where snow fall only occurs once or twice a month (like Pittsburgh), you don't "need" AWD, or even FWD at all. You can definitely drive a BMW w/all seasons all winter long. Most people garage their Bimmers because they can't stand the idea of them getting covered with salt when the have an SUV to drive instead.

1pierce · May 2002

I just did an extensive comparison drive between the A4 3.0 and the 325i. I'm not a performance cop like some of the posters over on the 3-series board, either.

I wanted to like the Audi better, I really wanted to. It is just so much car for the money. And, AWD has been used by Porsche for decades,...and they know a thing or two about sports car performance. But, while the Audi is a beautiful machine, with a truly luxurious look and feel, and killer details, its going to take alot more than 50-50 weight distribution to make the A4 I drove feel as sporty as a 325i (w/no SP).

Don't kid yourself. There are many reasons to pick an A4 over a 325i. But the 325i is definitely, objectively, a sportier drive.

nyccarguy · May 2002

I do agree that Quattro is beneficial in much more then snowy days. My Mom who has an A6 3.0Q was astonished at how well the car handled in the rain. I told her it was because of the Quattro. It also aids in power transfer during braking, acceleration, and while rounding curves. Quattro is definitely a helpful tool that can be used 365 days a year.

mark: I always respect you opinions and knowledge of Audi products and their capabilities as well as your invaluable contributions to the Audi boards, but a Quattro equipped Audi with Z rated tires is going the same place a RWD BMW with Z rated tires...nowhere. Z rated tires on anything are terrible in the cold weather and especially in the snow. I think an Audi w/ Quattro and all seasons or Quattro and Snows will outdo a similarly equipped RWD BMW in the nasty white weather.

markcincinnati · May 2002

I do not advocate keeping Z rated (summer/performance) tires on year round where there is a regular and frequent "loss of coefficient" of friction (snow, etc.) I leased my 2001 A6 4.2 in December 2000 and it came with those lousy Pirelli P6000's Z-rated. I hated the tires from the beginning but knew that I would be -- coincidentally -- in Ingolstadt in January 2001, England in February and wanted my first new tire purchase to be ultra high performance tires. At about 8,000 miles I put Yoko AVS db's (all season ultra high perf) on to replace the P6000's. I did, therefore, have Z rated tires on the car in late December, January and February -- and even though I hated the tires for many reasons, I had little trouble getting through winter.

I do not believe this should be the way things are done however.

1pierce · May 2002

AWD is so superior to FWD or RWD in the snow, that I think you could make it through most winters with Z-rated tires on a quattro. I was tempted to try it when I was shopping the A4 w/SP. I still wouldn't advise it, though, if you live somewhere with alot of snow fall.

With RWD, I'd never try it. Again, I think you can get by with any type of power train with good all seasons, if you know how to drive in the snow, and don't live in Maine or Alaska.

markcincinnati · May 2002

The other problem with Z rated tires (but not with Ultra High Perf All Seasons which are W rated) seems to be temperature related. Z tires don't like the cold! They seem to loose their grippy tread feeling. They also feel "too stiff" -- and it is not the stiffness that the Z sidewall has during "summer."

But, I agree, with quattro I have not had too much problem "going in the snow" -- now stopping is another matter. Four Z rated tires on snow at 25 degress F on a quattro provide nothing that could be called helpful in stopping the car -- in this regard an RWD car with 4 Z tires is just as useless (stopping) as an AWD car with Z rated tires -- go ABS go! Help ESP help!

My wife has two sets of tires for her TT -- and she likes it so much better that way -- even in our "modest" Cincinnati winters.

I am currently down to one set of tires on the A6 Q and only if I still have my car in November will I buy another set for winter. At this point, much as I love my car @ 25K miles -- I only have about 10 lease payments left, so I am thinking perhaps this time a manual transmission allroad might be fun for a couple of years!

If anyone knows if the Z rated tires are made of a compound that "doesn't like" the cold, I'd be interested in knowing if it is just my imagination.

scirocco22 · May 2002

Z-rated/ultra-high performance tires do indeed have compounds which are much less flexible and usually retain their stiffness in cold temperatures. An all-weather designated performance tire will tend to have treads and compounds which which will remain more flexible in colder temperatures to enhance traction.

I agree, driving any vehicle in snow or ice conditions with ultra-high performance Z or W rated summer tires is downright dangerous even with quattro, IMHO.

--'rocco

eaweg · May 2002

Hey everybody...I posted this on audiworld.com as well. Just thought I would give my $.02. Don't know if it will help or not!

First, I am no way a know-it-all on cars...I just love them. I am also on 29 so I have not driven every car on the planet.

After cruising on interstate 77 in Charlotte last night and driving next a beautiful silver S4, I thought I would reflect on my overall experience so far on my ebony 3.0 quattro 6 spd. I got it 2.5 months ago with ebony leather, sunroof, heated seats, sport package, bose, and premium package.

So far my only problem(s) have been a new radio, and my gas gauge took awhile to read full after I filled her up yesterday. Hopefully I haven't cursed my self for future problems.

As far as driving....well in one word...fun. I am still getting used to six speeds and learning that quite a bit of power is available in 5th and 6th gears above 50-60 mph. Yes, I do concede that the BMW is quicker and I wish I had some more low-end oomph. But, when I turned off on my exit yesterday and took the nice "curves-and-hills" route, the 3.0 simply "went to town". I mean I had no problems blowing through the curves and hills. When it rained two days ago...same result. Flawless handling through puddles and the downpour. It was like giving a milkbone to my dog.

Gas mileage has been getting better. I usually fill up around a quarter tank (maybe a little less) and get anywhere from 220-265 miles. I have yet to do a long distance journey on the interstate....which will come in June when I drive up to DC for a family visit.

Despite the fact that I wish it had more low end torque (and maybe I should have waited for the Avant) I love my car and I have no regrets. I did go through a couple of days of "maybe I should have gotten the G35 for the bang for the buck." But there is something about the A4 that I just can't pinpoint...mystique? Sex-appeal? MOJO??? I agree with R&T ...As one editor succinctly put it, "The new Audi A4 is a mini-version of the flagship A8 -- for half the price."

Well, this may not have been informative but I hope it helps those who are looking at the 3.0 (or 1.8 for tht matter)and for those who are in my boat that have one currently. My only legitimate gripe is that I wish I waited for an extra couple of months so I could have taken advantage of an even better lease deal than what I got (not that mine is bad).

Thanks for your eyes (and ears?)

Edwin

purchasingsoon · May 2002

eaweg, i'm close to negotiating on a 1.8 or a 3.0 (6 cylinder is smooth but is it worth the extra $$?)...can you tell me what i'll be up against on the leasing "deal"? any helpful info you can lend would really help me out.
thanks.

iamwhoam · May 2002

markcincinnati- Need any help around the office? I want to get a job were everyone has BMWs and Audi's and winters in Germany! I have now lived in Cinci for 3 years and it seems like the only people who need a 4wd are the ones on Mt. Adams. I've always wondered how the guy with the M3 on the top copes with it. Anyway.

I have a 3 year old Jeep Grand Cherokee that I might be looking to get rid of, who do you think the best Audi dealer around Cinci is?

.02 on winter driving from a Buffalo native who learned how to drive in Chicago- I think that the stability programs are that control the yaw may be even better than the four wheel drive. We were driving up I-65 in my wives 330xi in driving snow over frozen rain. We were coming over an overpass only to see stopped traffic ahead. Since my wife was driving I definatlely felt the ABS and the stablity program kick in. I know my Jeep's massive tires, and ground clearance wouldn't have mattered a whit.

Like someone said, you get in alot more accidents because you can't stop than you can't go.

dl7265 · May 2002

i didnt know they made any RWD Audi A4 ?

DL

bluetrane · May 2002

Jeez, this place is lousy with Cincinnatians

I bought from Beechmont and had an overall pleasant experience. Mark has been enthusiastic and effusive in his praise of Northland. I liked Northland too; I went with Beechmont simply because they were able to get me an Avant before my old lease ran out.

On a more general note, the true measure of a deealership is how they handle problems. Anyone can sell you a car, but good service after the sale identifies the pros.

eaweg · May 2002

The lease deals on the 3.0 are far better than the 1.8. My money factor was .0015 I believe and that was two months ago. I just read on the audiworld.com website that someone got their's at .001 which is about 2.4%! I know it depends on state to state but these deals on the 3.0 are within $20-$30 (if not better than) the 1.8. Put it this way, I was going to buy the 1.8 and then my wife and I drove the 3.0...there was no turning back...even if we did lease.

markcincinnati · May 2002

We also have a Mercedes E430 and an Infiniti I30 in the parking lot. The winters in Germany have been "company sponsored" trips which were rewards during strong performance periods for either long term or highly productive employees. While we did have a Germany, Audi trip in January 2002, 2001 was -- in our industry and in our state (Ohio) a virtual depression. Even though we are recovering, there will, unfortunately, be no Germany trip in January 2003. The word is "recovering" not fully "recovered." Like everything else, the recession (depression in manufacturing and IT) shall pass. . .the sooner the better.

We do need help, too. If you are a software consultant familiar with Oracle ERP -- we want you!

I have no negatives about Beechmont Audi -- I have only positives about Northland. Although Northland was purchased by the Joseph Auto Group, the sales and service and support I receive has been constant since my very first Audi in 1978 (a 5000).

And, I totally agree -- ESP + ABS w/brake assist (this latter upgrade was added in model year 2002) are great technologies.

wepperson · May 2002

I just dumped my A4 2.8 Quattro with the Certified Assurance Warranty just starting. The dealer could not resolve intermittent problems with the Tiptronic failing to upshift manually and with the cruise control failing to take a setting, then deciding to take it 15 miles later when the speed limit was 10 mph lower. On top of that they did stuff like letting me drop off the car for scheduled warranty part replacement and then calling me to say the part had not come in. The final straw was when I made an appointment a week in advance, dropped the car off at 7:30am, returned at 4:45, and had to wait 45 minutes. For an OIL CHANGE! Pitiful. The dealer was West Broad Audi in Richmond, VA. I complained to Audi of America about the inadequate dealer service and they basically said "Gosh, we're sorry". My new Subaru Legacy Outback H6 3.0 VDC sedan is roomier, more powerful, handles better, has better amenities, and cost about the same thing as a two year old A4.

1pierce · May 2002

My 2-cents on this comparo:

I took long test drives in both a 1.8T and a 3.0. Both quattro w/Tip. I almost bought the A4 3.0 - opted to order a 325i instead, for alot of reasons that I won't bore you with. But the decision was VERY close.

I would not have bought the 1.8T. Drive both. If you never had a turbo, I think you'll notice the lag between 1,000 and 2,000 RPM (The turbo kicks in around 2,000 RPM, after which it is quite satisfying). The problem is, in most US urban areas, you do ALOT of driving between 1,000 and 3,000 RPM. I always felt like the car had no low-end go at pull out, so I'd give it more gas,...and then it would launch at around 2,000 RPM,...and then I'd have to do a serious lift to keep the speed under control.

I could have gotten used to it, but it was just unnerving. With manual transmission, you'd probably notice this lag far less. If you can live with the lag, (and the engine is noisier, too), the 1.8T is a "Can't beat it" bargain for quality and features.

crashton6 · May 2002

Our 99 A4 was a 2.8 Tip Q. It was a nice car, but the 2.8 just didn't have enough pull off the line. Once rolling it had plenty of power. I guess it was just the torque curve of the 2.8. We had the sport package & I feel the handling was top notch. As for the 02 it's a 1.8T Tip Q without the sport package. The main reason we didn't get a 3.0 was cost. We just couldn't justify the extra cost for the V6. When compared to the 2.8 the 1.8T has lots of low down pull. If it didn't have Quattro I'd be spinning the front tires all the time. Even without the sport package it handles very well. The seat of my pants says that it's as good as the 99 with sport. The reason we passed on the sport was that living with 17 inch tires in the real world looked like a potential problem. We did upgrade to the 16 inchers from the standard 15s. The 99 was a nice car, but the 02 is just a notch or so above it, more refined I'd say. Hope this review helps. Sorry it took me so long to respond to you.

Chuck

lauk0dg · May 2002

Well actually your pants are telling you the facts.....the 02 non sports suspension is the same one as the pre-02 sports supsension. The 16" rims are not a bad choice.....the 15" rims look terrible, in my opinion.....plus it gives you a compromise between 15" pkg and the 17" pkg.

Billy

deedubs · May 2002

Yay!! I finally got my car!! And you guys were right... learning to drive manual wasn't that big of a deal! I'm still not completely proficient at it, (and sometimes I get a little nervous) but I know that'll just take some time and practice. I drove down to LA (from the bay area) with no problems!
The day before I went to pick it up, my friend helped me practice for about an hour and a half. I felt a lot more comfortable after that. When I went to pick it up the next day, I stalled a couple times getting out of the dealership driveway because I was really nervous, and I had never test-driven the car (I know, horrible, huh?), so I didn't know how it drove, where the clutch engaged, etc. But after I got out of the driveway it was all good from there. I was driving by myself, and I think that may have helped. No pressure from anyone else. It IS really easy to drive (like y'all say) and very smooth, and I got the feel for it pretty quickly. Later that night I went out and practiced some more on my own too. The next day I drove up to Davis (near Sacramento), and it started POURING!! I couldn't see the cars in front of me very clearly, but I kept reminding myself, quattro, quattro!! and I felt really safe in the car. THEN there was traffic! This was the first time I really, really drove stick by myself (like a normal situation) for more than a small amount of time, without the comfort of after-hours when there aren't many cars out, or a "practice" mentality. I was glad that I experienced traffic though so that I could learn and get better! I also wouldnt turn on my radio for the first 48 hours because I wanted to get a feel for the sounds of the car and stuff. Anyway, like I said, I drove down to LA without any problems and now things are great! I love it! Thanks for all your help guys!
And for anyone planning to get an automatic because you don't know how to drive manual... try to learn! It's not as hard as it seems, and it's fun and worth it!
Now to tackle LA traffic....

pengqiren · May 2002

What r folks hearing abt the A4 rag top? When's it coming? Specs?

brick22 · May 2002

Great news! After all of that time, you must have done some shopping around. Did you, or did you stay with the original dealer? What did you end up getting exactly? Still waiting for my factory order Avant to come.

andys120 · May 2002

follow the directions and you'll be able to see better next time you're in a heavy rain. Rain-X combined w Quattro makes driving in the rain like a day at the beach....with a safer uv factor.

marleybarr · May 2002

Does anyone know what the W8 accel time 0-60mph is? I'm assuming it is equal or slightly faster than the posted 6.6 for the 2.7T "tip".
I also use Rain-X or similar products. I love driving in hard rain w/wipers in the off position!

audibon · May 2002

Marleybarr-According to Edmunds first drive of the W8 they quoted a 0-60 time of 6.5 seconds. I remember reading something on Audiworld about the W8 with manual being able to get to 60 in under 6 seconds but can't recall the exact time.
Deedubs-Congrats on the new car and conquering stick shift! I bought a stick at 21 ('83 Toyota Supra) and could not have had a better car to learn on with a hydraulic clutch and decent shifter. Once you feel comfortable you may want to have someone teach you some more advanced stuff like clutchless shifting, heel and toe, and then on to trail braking and power slides. But you would need track time for the last 2. If not at least try and learn the first 2 as your enjoyment and mastery of the manual will be that much more fun. Keep us updated on the new ride and your progress with shifting for yourself. Happy motoring! Brian

scirocco22 · May 2002

Max-- I believe the 0-60 time for the W8 is 6.5 sec.

Andy-- I used Rain-X years ago and quit using it because under certain conditions where you have to use the wipers, it left a white sheen on the wet windshield. It worked great at high speeds but at times I found that I had to use the wipers and when I did, the mentioned sheen it left became irritating. The people that use it tell me that you have to be committed to not using the wipers at all unless it looses its effectiveness rapidly. I've found that it's difficult to remove once it's applied. Personally, I prefer a immaculately cleaned windshield in combination with well-maintained and conditioned wiper blade rubber.

Jill-- I saw a brand spankin' new dolphin Avant yesterday and I thought of you.

Richard-- AudiWorld has an extensive 6-page article they published on February 10: Click HERE for AudiWorld article. A Motor Trend online says in this article of May 02 that it will only be offered with CVT in the N.A. market: Click HERE for Motor Trend article *sniff*

Diana-- Congratulations! Yeah, give us some more details and impressions when you can.

--'rocco

scirocco22 · May 2002

Max-- scratch my response.

scirocco22 · May 2002

Brian-- I think I remember reading something about that too but the 6-speed manual with sport package W8 won't be available here for another year.

--'rocco

audibon · May 2002

Markcincinnati had also mentioned that the Passat W8 would be coming stateside with a manual as well but not until the 2nd year of production which would be 2003 as I would imagine a 2004 model... I also saw pictures of the new Phaeton in Motor Trend. They gave the specs for the W12 and they are pretty impressive but over 70k for a VW? That could be hard to swallow. They might and that is a big MIGHT, compete with Mercedes Benz if the car comes loaded. Maybe 1-3 available options but everything else is standard you just configure the vehicle and that's it. I guess how an S8 comes with only a few options and then you are done. VW may even model the car after an S8 in terms of luxury and standard features. It will be interesting to see. Brian

markcinti3 · May 2002

I believe the 2.7T A6 6spd is (today) quicker than the US 2002 model W8 Passat -- and remember the W8 is an automatic and weighs less. The torque comes on sooner in the 2.7T -- In fact, as I read the "total" Audi brochure, the 2.7T manual is quicker than the S8 and the S6 avant, and of course is quicker than the 4.2.

With the manual, even the 2.7T in the much heavier allroad is very quick, @ 6.8, compared with the V8's 6.7 (in a "plain" A6 4.2).

The upcoming W8 6spd should be able to be a little bit better or a little bit worse than most of the current model lineup of Audi in the 0-100kph department.

The Phaeton,according to Car magazine is not meant to compete with the A8, A8L or S8 (although I have stated my opinion that it seems for a year or three -- while Audi and VW make their market differentiation plans a reality -- that there has to be some cannibalization of Audi by VW). The Phaeton, I am almost certain, is about the same as the next generation A8 (chassis, engine, transmission). The Audi will have, IMO, more refinement toward "sporting" than the Phaeton.

But, theoretically at least, VW is gunning for Mercedes buyers ("classic luxury") not BMW or Audi buyers ("sporting luxury").

In cylinder count, I still think that a $50K Audi A6 2.7T with "only" a V6, may confuse segments of the market when they see (soon) a Passat W8 with sport package and manual transmission for $38K.

Today, I'd still put my money in the Audi brand, but I have at least convinced myself that the differences, many subtle, between the brands are clearly worth the extra $12K.

The Phaeton -- US bound -- I have read $$$$ commentary which says prices as low as $55K to just south of $70K (with a W12). The next Audi 8 family also will have the W12 (so says car magazines) available and if the current S8 with the expensive alcantara interior is any clue, could easily top $80K -- meaning, that VW is attempting to differentiate (although for a year or three, it is a rather transparent attempt, IMO) itself from Audi by having a slightly lower price point.

The magazines claim VW 95% of Mercedes at 80% of the price is the GOAL (or is that the target?)

I haven't the foggiest if they will achieve this on the first serious attempt (the Phaeton). But you gotta admire them for trying.

scirocco22 · May 2002

An interesting trend: Those of you whom are familiar with my discontent of Audi moving away from including the voltmeter and oil temperature gauge in the A4 --and I suspect they'll also be doing so in the new A6 (the "trend" thing here), know how this frustrates me. But in the photos I've seen so far of both the Phaeton and the Touareg, each seem to have those gauges ...Audi moving away from and VW moving toward including those, IMHO, essential intruments. Exactly what's the theory there???

If either the Phaeton or the Touareg should be offered with a 6-speed manual here in the N.A. market, I'd seriously be a prospective buyer should I determine that I want to move to upscale vehicles. I'm impressed with both model's list of features and engineering accomplishments. But I'm positive that neither will be offered with a 6-speed here.

--'rocco

deacref · May 2002

I am considering buying a used - A4 - 1999 w/ 37,000 miles. It drove great, and I'm sold on it, however ---- in reading these discussions - I've read a lot about problems with a number of your vehicles--- especially recurring issues. This will be a vehicle for my teen age daughter that needs to be reliable (both the car and child). Is it too much car for a 17 year old?
Am I being paranoid about the service or does the car have a lot of issues - in reality?
Also - the dealer is asking $21,000 . It has heated seats - sunroof - sport wheels - etc. Is that price in line - or should I haggle some? They said it was dropped from $23,000. The KBB shows $21,000.
Thanks for your input.

scirocco22 · May 2002

Bill-- Can you give a little more info.? 1.8T or 2.8?; manual or tip?; exact options? Generally, what's your location?

And what are the recurring problems which you are referring to? I know the earlier models suffered from front end problems but I'd be interested in any other drastically recurring problems you've heard of.

And too much car for a 17 year old? Well, I won't get into my personal philosophical reasons why parents shouldn't "give" expensive cars for their teen-agers to drive but this isn't the forum for that. *lol* (please don't take offense).

--'rocco

verozahl · May 2002

... especially if all the other chix in the neighborhood have a Jetta ...

audibon · May 2002

Nice to see you posting here again, forgot to mention that before when our paths crossed concerning the W8! I'm with you on this whole upscale VW thing, if they can bring a vehicle to our shores with a 6spd and 4motion on the W8 platform I would not walk but run when new car time comes around again...
Deacref-The more info you provide the forum specifically about what you are planning to purchase the more informed everyone's advice can be to you on whether or not the car is a good deal. Notwithstanding the issues of late surrounding kids and cars I'd have to say that your daughter must be well deserving and she is lucky to have a father that is able to provide a vehicle for her; a safe one at that! The one thing that I have found lately is trust your gut, if it smells fishy, looks fishy, and it bothers you for some reason then walk away. There are many good used cars out there and when you find a good one with a good price plus all the other intangibles (dealer, salesman, service etc.) the choice will be easy. BTW are you looking at Audi Assured vehicles? Good luck in your search and keep us informed!
I'd like to share a story with the forum, unfortunately it is somewhat long plus it is late but it is concerning a used car search with my friend. I shall save it for another time.
Not to get pompous or pretentious but Have a Happy and Safe Memorial Day and let's not forget about the troops who are doing their jobs to protect all of our freedoms! Safe motoring.
Brian

deacref · May 2002

Thanks for replying.
To answer the details of the car :
37,000 miles - Red - auto / power steering - brakes / power windows -door locks / CD Changer / sunroof / Bose system / heated seats / Quattro - Tip / Trip odom and AC --- to name a few things.
I am in NC.
Problems that I read about ---
one poster said -- 'never again' tiptronic failed and the dealer couldn't resolve the problem.
others -
-rattles
-it did seem like dealerships differed greatly in how problems were handled. Some quickly - and others were hassled and problems not resolved.
- trunk problems
- speaker blew
- minor problems - and it took time to take it in to get it fixed. (Our dealer is 25 miles from where I live - so it isn't the easiest thing to get it to them).
-knocking noise in the front end.
#3689 - wrote - just out of warranty - and 'check airbag 'light came on. It was going to cost $600 to fix it. "ever since I've had it - fix one problem and another one comes up"
- leaking oil -- (32 k miles) $3500 to fix it
- front suspension - $1200 to fix it.

----------------------------------------
Just some of the things I ran across. I'm just asking - is this typical or are these just isolated - and the unlucky ones? I did read a lot of very happy / satisfied Audi owners.
I didn't mention - I have owned 5 Lexus' - and NEVER had one problem with any of them. However - their service jobs are rather expensive, too.

Anyway - thanks for the advice and I'll look forward to comments to these issues.

andys120 · May 2002

with over 81,000 now I have no problems, love this car.

I don't like seeing a 17 y/o get a fine car like this. It just doesn't strike me as a "trainer" car(or maybe I'm just jealous cuz I had to work all my life to afford an Audi.)

Is you are unsure the "Audi-Assured" is worth the extra $$.

deacref · May 2002

To answer a couple of you - yes the car I'm thinking about IS 'Audi Assured".
Plus - I just found out - due to an error by their marketing dept. -which ran an ad in the paper with an incorrect - LOWER price - the dealer said they will honor that price - which is close to $`1200 less than their original quote.
Thoughts ????????

Audi A4 2004 and earlier

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