Audi A4 2004 and earlier

stevenh7 · January 2004

Edmunds Future shows a 2 door A4 coupe. Anyone know if this is planned?

bkjprince · January 2004

I may be buying an Audi A4 Avant this weekend from an individual who recently bought a GIAC chip set.

I was wondering if I should buy the chip from him or not. I think I would like the extra power and torque but really want smooth delivery from as low rpm as possible.

Question: Is this a good chip set and will it overly tax the engine or should I by another chip set to get the smooth delivery of power at low rpm?

How much to pay for a used chip set?

thanks all.

BKJ

markcincinnati · January 2004

The chipped Audi my wife and I owned enjoyed two big changes -- gobs and gobs of torque, and the torque came on a few hundred RPM higher.

The net of this was the perception of a "notch" in the boost -- turbo lag. Not bad, in fact, it was a "rush" once we got to about 2400 rpm, but in the factory set up the torque is "there" at 1900 rpm -- so the net is, better acceleration, more grin factor per launch, perhaps lower gas milage because you "get into it more" and a bit more turbo lag.

GIAC has a good reputation.

What good is the chip to the seller? I would pay 1/2 of retail for it, therefore.

Hope this helps.

llwyse · January 2004

I posted a note on another Edmunds Audi site ("Problems and Solutions") about the acceleration lag and then the lurching when the tranny downshifts ('03 A4 3.0 quattro with Tip now at 18,500 miles). Others expressed similar problems and I saw a few references to that on this site. Thought I would give an update here.

Went to the dealer again. No codes, but at least the service tech who rode and drove with me acknowledged the problem. He downloaded a readout to an Audi hotline. Again, "nothing wrong." ("No codes, no problem.") The service mgr says I'm the only one complaining about this. Yeah, right!

I wrote to the tech guru for the Audi Club ("Ask Uncle John"). His very interesting response is in the current issue of "quattro quarterly" (along with a similar letter from an A6 owner). The tech guru said he has three cars in his shop now with similar problems. Said it is a drive-by-wire "fuzzy logic" problem that Audi refuses to acknowledge. Hopefullly enough of us will keep bugging them until they offer a software download to correct it.

The service tech at the dealer did give me a good tip that has helped some. Apparently the "fuzzy logic" that tries to learn your driving habits and anticipate your needs is learning something from me (and I am not a left foot braker). So when my lag/lurch problem gets really bad, I clear the memory. It does seem to help. Here's how:

Drive the car. Stop and turn it off for at least 30 seconds. Turn the key on, but don't start the engine. Press the accelerator all the way to the floor, being sure you go past the "kick down" point. THAT IS KEY!! Let off the accelerator and wait for 30 seconds, then turn the key off. Start back up and you're good to go.

That has made the situation tolerable for me. Driving in Sport mode also seems to help some. Maybe this can hold us over til Audi gets a better fix for the problem "no one else has." :-) And you won't have to remind me to get a manual tranny for my next Audi.

markcincinnati · January 2004

. . .still remind you to get the manual tranny the next time. Apparently even the new 6spd tip can be made to mimic turbo lag.

Although I must say that despite the problems I have had with Audi's automatic transmissions, I did enjoy my 1997 A8, 1999 A6 2.8, 2000 A6 4.2, 2001 A6 4.2 and 2003 allroad. Only the allroad of this group of Audis that has been parked in our garage is a 6spd manual. All the others Audis that preceded the 1997 A8 and my wife's (manual only Audis) were manual.

There was no choice in the A8 when I got it -- and imagine the culture shock I went through when I traded my 1995 S6 in on the A8.

Elsewhere on the Internet there is a petition to Audi of America requesting, some would say demanding that Audi address this problem. I do not know of anyone with an Audi with the tiptronic that does not have this problem from time to time.

My sweeeet 2001 A6 4.2 sport would, unpredictably at first, go into lag-mode when it was most, how should I say, "inconvenient" (some would go so far as to say dangerous.) But I figured out how to more or less be "taught by the car" how to drive to avoid (mostly) the terrible tiptronic trials and tribulations (ain't alliteration fun?)

The tiptronic, as noted, does not like the Michigan system (left foot braking was called this when I took driver's ed in the late '60's.)

So cut it out.

The tip also doesn't seem to appreciate "rolling stops" or near stops or, frankly slow downs that are on the threshold of the down shift to first gear. And, if I'm lyin' I'm dyin' the tiptronic as it has been apparently programmed "hates" first gear. My Audis were hell-bent to get to the next highest gear so quickly (too early for my tastes) that I often felt I was rarely in the transmission/engine's sweet spot insofar as the torque curve was concerned.

In English: the car was in third (or whatever) gear about two+ seconds earlier than would be appropriate if you might immediately need to merge or accelerate briskly (without flooring the accelerator, that is). In the 2001 model there was no "S" mode and with the V8, well tip mode is a joke since the transmission shifts out of first gear after about 3 feet of forward motion has taken place, no matter what you do (short of full throttle acceleration.)

The tiptronic, IMHO, is probably not technically dangerous, but it is also pretty much Guaranteed to prevent acceleration unintended or intended, until you learn it's quirks and begin to adjust your style to it's programming.

The tiptronic is a reverse Pavlov's dog -- and the driver is the dog, the car rings the bell and the driver salivates, so to speak.

Now, I have driven a 2002 last on the lot S6 avant -- when I was considering a new allroad or S6 (and remember I was very very familiar at that juncture with the V8 and tiptronic marriage.) The S6 tiptronic was "righ now" responsive -- without flooring the accelerator. Perhaps the "way it should be" in all tip equipped Audis.

I am often loaned new Audis when my allroad is in for service and I can assure you that the CVT does not suffer from tip lag but that the A4 1.8T and 3.0 do, but the effect is about 95% masked if the transmission is kept in "S" mode.

Why or what in the wide wide world of sports would this transmission's obvious and repeated (everywhere on the net and in the quattro quarterly, for example) faults be allowed to soldier on (by Audi?) Moreover, even though a casual test drive may not uncover the lag, one would also wonder why more folks don't compare the wonderful manual 6spd and the tiptronic and come to the conclusion that the tip, even when it is on its best behavior, sucks the power out of the car?

Test drive a 1.8T and a 3.0 back to back with the two transmissions. The differences are not subtle; the manual transmission cars permit more rapid acceleration, control, performance and -- due to these attributes imparted -- safety.

The tiptronic appears to be cruisin' for a bruisin' if you read the rants here, there and everywhere.

Now, I for one, believe Audi got a bum rap on the Audi 5000 60 Minutes Unitended Acceleration fiasco; but the folks that carp about the current version of the tiptronic are -- by virtue of the numbers of them alone -- hardly on the fringe, hardly a bunch of fanatics -- generally speaking these folks are passionate fans of the brand.

Indeed, this, IMHO, is the only siginicant issue (currently) plaguing Audis otherwise fine line of cars.

Finally, even though I have a certain degree of incredulity that apparently "little or nothing is being done to address this problem," I also temper these opinions, facts and emotions with my perspective that the situation was, for me, annoying, sometimes inconvenient, sometimes embarrassing (when the only way I could get out of the way was to floor the accelerator which made the car LEAP forward -- which my mother-in-law didn't appreciate), but not rising to dangerous as is being alleged elsewhere.

Moral of the story and opinion: test drive both versions stick and auto. You choose. Afterwards, though -- realize that the current party line is "nothing is wrong." Well, pull the other one.

P.S. check post #213 on the edmunds town all allroad board, "it's everywhere, it's everywhere!" (tip issues, that is.)

llwyse · January 2004

So, markcincinnati, you place all of this lag on the Tip? I agree it saps power, etc and appreciated all your other comments and insight......but doesn't that negate the drive-by-wire, fuzzy logic issue? I'm wondering if a performance chip would help? I understand there is a GIAC chip for the tranny as well as the engine. Any thoughts from markcinci or others?

markcincinnati · January 2004

Turbo charged engines -- even Audi's -- do have some lag, but it is virtually always identical and hence predictable and once you learn that the turbo lag is virtually absent from 1950 RPMS on up, well you can basically just keep things in the sweet spot (of course it is easier to do so with the 6spd manual).

The tip lag may exacerbate the turbo lag -- but the point is that the tip lag is difficult to predict, it is difficult to learn a set of behaviors that always always always achieves the same result. I did get pretty good at tailoring my driving to the tip's propensity to upshift early and therefore provide less "immediate" acceleration. As noted "S" mode, apparently, removes much of this by virtue of the fact the "S" mode keeps the transmission in gear a bit longer before upshift.

There are discussions of the tip chip elsewhere on the WWW and there is, more or less, an expert available at Joe Hoppen Motorsports (on the WWW, too.) Hoppen is an MTM dealer.

With respect to the turbo chip, well, this is the easiest way to get more torque and power from an Audi turbocharged engine. It should be noted, however, that the chip does raise the RPM's somewhat to achieve the massive torque that is transplanted into the turbo engine by virtue of the chip.

Other helpful mods include new pipes, ByPassValves, Bi-Pipes, and even larger turbos and even more aggressive chips.

I saw an Audi 1.8T TT that had been chipped and modded to 350HP, yet it looked normal in every respect save for the Candy Apple Red Pearl paint job and 18" super big bucks wheels.

The tip, for many, is unsatisfying -- I said MANY not most; for I do believe that most folks, even if they notice the tip lag, accept it, adapt to it and live with it simply because even with its flaws and lag it is an excellent transmission.

Driving a late model BMW auto, however, or an Audi Stick or BMW stick and then returning to the tip, makes the tip equipped version's slight hesitiation considerably more noticable.

I called it annoying, as I recall -- others, not I, call it dangerous. Virtually all notice it.

If you have the tip and it has S mode, try that first -- you may find in slow almost stop and then go traffic that "S" mode is fine.

With respect to the turbo chip -- personal preference all the way. I have a 2.7T in my 2003 allroad (stick shift), I did put sport ByPassValves on the engine, but find it quicker and faster than a huge majority of cars. And, thus far, full throttle acceleration onto a crowded Interstate has been safe, effortless and "fun."

Hopefully there is a software update that will be soon applied to the tip -- it must exist, for no such complaint, thus far, has been made about the RS 6 or S4 6spd tiptronic.

llwyse · January 2004

I have a 3.0, not a turbo. Any advice on performance modifications for that?

And, yes, using S mode in stop and go does help some. I've been doing that for some time. Certainly addresses the quick upshift tendancy.

cosmo2 · January 2004

In this 21st Century version of the United States of America, a manual transmission is probably one of the most effective anti-theft devices on the market, and the price, -$1,000+, is hard to beat. A few years ago, my stepson took his car into the high school auto mechanics shop to have some free work done. (The school charged for parts, of course.) He had to drive his car into the shop and drive it out again when the work was completed because none of the students taking auto mechanics, nor the teacher, knew how to drive a stick shift, and they all had their drivers licenses. My sons used to borrow my Audi's to show off that they could drive five-speed manuals, not to show off that we had Audi's. Besides a limited demand for stolen cars with manual transmissions, I assume there are fewer auto thieves nowadays who can shift for themselves.

llwyse · January 2004

I second that, cosmo2! I wanted manual for my Audi, but my wife and I swap cars or share driving sometimes and she really insisted on an automatic. She has driven manual, but isn't very comfortable. I've regretted the decision ever since. I assure you I won't buy another Audi with Tiptronic! I bought 5-speeds for my sons to be sure they learned how to drive stick. Both worked as valets at a country club for a few summers. Guess who got to drive all the really cool, exotic cars?? They were often the only ones who could drive a stick. I collect British cars (currently a Triumph TR6 and Jag E-Type). We love taking them out with friends and so far haven't had anyone unable to drive them. It's that younger generation I worry about! :-)

gearhead10 · January 2004

Never driven a car equipped with a tipchip but others have posted on Audi-specific sites that it decreases the shift time of the tranny from 1 sec to 0.2 sec. Think of it as a short-shifter for your tip. Checked with GIAC and I believe they currently only have them for the B5 (pre-2002) A4s.

For the N/A 3.0, I believe GIAC makes an ECU chip but their website isn't up to date. Neuspeed makes one that increases power 7-9 hp (don't get nearly the gains as with a turbo) and costs $199. Rev limiter and top speed governor are raised.

cyberpmg · January 2004

So far GAIC has not produced a Tip chip for the B6 platform. Their website is misleading, but accurate when you try to order the tip chip (you'll get an error). Many of us Tip owners have been asking for this for 2 years now with no real response from GAIC. =(

I have added a performance chip from Wetterauer onto my 3.0. It increases the horsepower by 15 to 235 HP. It increases the torque by 20 to 241 ft. lbs. Essentially, it is doing a timing advance. Cost for the chip is at $395. Wetterauer is highly regarded in Germany, and their products are TUV certified. There really aren't many companies who offer performance mods for the 3.0 NA engine.

I've had the chip for over 15,000 miles without any problems. The easiest thing to notice is the torque increase during acceleration. I can feel myself being pressed further into the driver's seat than before.

As for the tranny, the only thing I have done was to lean how the tranny shifts (including learning the time delay between shifts) and compensate for the delays. I'm ususally driving in Tip mode 95% of the time (yes, the next one will be manual). I've learned to compensate the shift delay so I know when to hit the shifter (on the wheel or at the stick) so that the shift takes place when I want it.

markcincinnati · January 2004

The turbo engine chips have a dramatic effect, the NA(naturally aspriated) chips have a more subtle effect.

My buddy said that the 3.0 engine can be made to do more and that you need to determine how high the stack of 100 dollar bills is that you are willing to part with.

Anything that improves the breathing will improve the "urge" of the 3.0 -- lower restriction exhaust, perhaps sport air filter, a timing advance and of course the addition of an aftermarket "blower" -- a supercharger was at one time available for the 2.8 engine that essentially did what the turbo does for the other Audi engines but with 0 lag -- but big bucks.

A new set of cat back pipes and a chip on a 1.8T gives dramatic results for "little" money. No such "little money" option is available for the 3.0 -- the chip noted above is NOT a bad thing, however. It will just not produce the "oh wow!" difference that the chip produces on the turbo motors.

If raw performance is what you want and you haven't made your mind up yet and money isn't unlimited, here is a "value" proposition.

Acquire a new 1.8T manual transmission with the Ultra Sport package and whatever options you want, then upgrade the exhaust system and put a stage 2 chip in. The car should exceed, by a wide margin, the 0-100kph acceleration of a Stock 3.0, look a lot like an S4 and handle well too. Gut check: this version will be less money than a similarly optioned 3.0. However, the 3.0 has more luxury content and that includes some that is not currently offered on the 1.8T versions.

The thus modded 1.8T will be "more agressive" and you can take that as a good thing or as a contribution to a slight loss of refinement.

The 3.0 is a very sweet automobile -- and for my money, I'd probably just go with the 3.0, not modify it but order it with every sport item audi offers in their option sheet, perhaps upgrade by 1" the wheels and tires and perhaps order the sport exhaust system from Audi directly (www.audiusa.com/collection) or from the dealer.

In other words, I would trade the raw power of the modded (and cheaper 1.8T) for the refinement of the unmodded 3.0 Stick -- I like power seats, for one thing.

Either way, you have a great car.

Or, if money truly is no object -- bag these little guys and go for the S4 (and kick sand in just about everyone else's face -- if you're into that kind of thing).

giggs · January 2004

I was reading the exchange above between 5651 and 5652 and wanted to understand something a little better. Are you suggesting a person could drive their 3.0 quattro with Tip by starting out in S mode from a stop and then gradually shifting into drive as a routine form of city driving day in and day out to overcome the less than satisfying drive mode? I guess I would have thought all that shifting around between D and S would not be a good thing to do? I know you guys understand this stuff at another level so if this question seems lame - sorry but I'd appreciate your feed back. I was going to work with llwyse info from an Audi guru suggesting resetting the memory and trying to stay in drive with a view toward future improvement and maybe periodically having some fun with S mode. It sounds like markcincinnati is suggesting a blended approach of using S and D modes as a regular method of driving the car.

markcincinnati · January 2004

. . .universal course of action.

Some folks will find D mode acceptable virtually all of the time.

Some folks will find S mode a requirement to avoid the unpredictability of the learning mode when the selector is in D.

Some folks will always shift in tip mode.

Personally, when I am loaned either an A4 1.8T or 3.0 with a tip transmission, I run the entire time in S mode simply becuase, even though it still attempts to adapt in S mode, the S program leaves the car in gears as it upshifts a bit longer, thereby keeping the engine power in a range that makes the car respond "right now" rather than a couple of seconds "from now."

As noted, when I knew I needed acceleration "right now" in D mode, I knew that the only way I could have it when I wanted it was to floor the accelerator -- and, much as I love to zoom, most of the time I did not really need full throttle acceleration, but I called for it to prevent the lag that can occur when the car is left strictly to its own devices in D mode.

Some folks think D mode is -- quite literally -- dangerous (and there is a petition to AoA asking for remedy -- remedy, thus far, NOT compensation).

I find D mode, annoying, perhaps unsettling and from time to time embarrassing (when I make it "lunge" forward under full throttle when all I wanted was to, for example, "get out of the way" or make the light since I was already in the intersection, etc.) I, personally, have not had an experience that would make me claim that D mode is dangerous.

There is a much more eloquent question and answer pertaining to this issue on page 90 of the Winter 2004 Quattro Quarterly magazine.

The spirit of the Q&A can be summarized, if you don't have access to the full issue, thusly:

"Sometimes I pull out from a stop with a 'normal' accerlerator application and the car seems to be in a higher gear. Basically [the car] falls on its face. It simply won't move unless I pump the accelerator, 'waking it up,' then it roars off, snapping my neck! This situation is dangerous, frustrating and uncomfortable for a car of this quality (and price!). I'm about to give it up."

The person asking the question is refering to his 340 HP Audi S6 (2002).

This particular car is the one like I test drove when I was making the buy decision for a new allroad or a last year's leftover S6. My impressions were that the S6 tip was "the way it should be." This owner describes exactly the issues I had with my 2000 and 2001 A6 4.2 cars -- but this owner believes the situation has risen to dangerous.

For those of us who don't like it and don't think it should be an issue with cars of this quality and price, perhaps Audi should respond with a software or hardware patch. For those who think it is dangerous -- well need I mention "Unintended Acceleration" or perhaps Ford Explorer and Firestone Tire [and the word rollover]? No, I do not think the transmission will cause the car to roll over -- but can you say "law suit" or "class action" -- well you know, if you can't, there is someone out there who can.

Let's see the tip lag and drive by wire issues as they pertain to each other [apparently] have now made the Internet (at least three chat rooms that I know of) and the Audi Club of North America's house organ: "The Quattro Quarterly!"

Prediction -- and I am making this up -- somewhere there is an attorney with a Tiptronic equipped Audi of recent vintage who will have a problem, have a client with a problem or have a colleague with a [similar] problem. The costs of claiming "this behavior is normal or typical or that they all do it" could be quite high.

My guess is the software or hardware fix would be less costly (and less of a public relations nightmare) if some brilliant engineer would just find the appropriate PTF.

Tick tock.

giggs · January 2004

I believe you are correct. While I don't see this problem - in my very limited experience - as being dangerous, it is apparent that the absurd lag/acceleration is nevertheless real and will not be corrected until it becomes a dangerous situation. From all I have read, Audi is no doubt well aware of the problem. People often complain about how litigious society has become but you can almost understand why. It takes a catastrophic incident before anything is taken seriously.

kwongsum · January 2004

For all you Canadian, have you ever bought tires from Tire Rack? Is there any extra import tax? How was the purchase experience?

giggs · January 2004

I was recently mentioning to llwyse that I got a quote from tire rack on tires delivered that was great. Nothing was said about import tax in the quote. Only UPS of 70.00 USD was added to the bill. Having bought from the US many times (not with tire rack) I would be surprised if you didn't have to pay duty on top of that. Call them in the morning and get that clarified. Some companies shipping to Can from the US have their own broker. I suspect these guys do to. If that UPS price includes duty - wow! I would bet, however, you will still be way ahead on price even with the import tax, from what I was looking at. Even though the CDN loon closed at 76 cents to the green back yesterday (up from 65 cents a year ago), their prices are simply a lot better than what I could see around these parts.

andys120 · February 2004

The odometer of Bronzehilde, my '98 A4 Avant/2.8 read 111,111 this afternoon. It still runs and looks great. These are really fantastic cars guys.

ramza39 · February 2004

I found out today there are some scratches on the two front wheels (stock 17") on my A4 3.0 and the scratches are about 1-1.5" long and 0.5" wide. Any suggestions on how to remove the scratches or is there any touch-up paint to cover them up? Thanks!

rowlandj · February 2004

I know there is a 'universal touchup" for the wheels and you can purchase it on-line. I do not recollect how I found it but the company name is paintscratch in Incline Village NV - there was a web-site. If you try paintscratch.com that may work out.

Good Luck,

JR

pat · March 2004

Consumers' Most Wanted Vehicles for 2004 Survey is posted and ready for your input!

audibon · March 2004

Audibon here. Yes, long time no hear but I am back sort of. Work really cramps my time on this board!
Question:Any suggestions for aftermarket radios for a TT and an A4? I once test drove an S4 that had an upgraded head unit but the job was poor at best. The space had to be filled in by cheap black plastic material to compensate for the removal of the OEM unit. I really haven't seen much out there at all without resorting to that path but it would be nice to maintain as much of an OEM look as possible. Thanks for your help. Look forward to any suggestions.
Safe driving.
Audibon

gismo · March 2004

I am about to buy a new A-4 1.8T quattro and have a few questions;

1. How much below sticker price can you negotiate ?

2. What are the problems associated with this model so far?

3. Is the AWD worth the extra money, or should I stick with FWD ?

markcincinnati · March 2004

. . .get AWD. Don't even slow down and consider FWD; moreover, the AWD will help hold the value of the car higher due to "market expectations" for Audis -- that is, they are expected to come with AWD and the FWD versions will be less desirable later.

andys120 · March 2004

people expect Audis to have awd. The only serious problem associated w the 1.8T is the faulty ignition coils which wouldn't be a problem with '04 or late '03 models.

gismo · March 2004

I read a review article on Audi 4 in " New Car Test Drive " at;

http://www.nctd.com/review-intro.cfm?ReviewID=1546

and they recommend to stick with FWD and manual trans for the 1.8 T.

They quote;

"We do not enjoy the Tiptronic as much with the A4 1.8T, however. The turbo and automatic do not seem to always work as a team. At low speeds around town, the turbo seems to confuse the transmission, resulting in reduced response, then a surging sensation. We found this alternating behavior annoying. In stop-and-go L.A. traffic the automatic sometimes seemed surprised when we suddenly stood on the throttle to change lanes; the car hesitated before taking off, not good when other cars are barreling up behind. At higher speeds, however, the automatic shifted very smoothly and we wondered whether we were being overly critical"

I'd like to hear what owners think of 1.8 T automatic and trans.

markcincinnati · March 2004

I can think of no reason to get the A4 with the FWD -- reasons already stated but now elaborated. The "market" expects Audis to be AWD -- two virtually identical 3 year old Audis side by side one with and one without AWD will generally command prices further apart than the ~$1,500 price dif SHOULD justitfy.

A few other points -- FWD is popular, don't get me wrong. But its popularity is, even in domestic (US) brands fading, albeit somewhat slowly. But, the Eurocar set and the often Euro-like premium Japanese market has, of late, starting adding AWD variants to their models.

An enthusiast will disdain an FWD Euro car as a poser -- and, although I disagree with this, it is out there.

AWD is, safer, performs better year round and, is, I think, more fun to drive -- I don't care if it is in an Audi or a BMW or a Volvo.

With regards to the tiptronic. It has been bashed so much on these pages and on other "enthusiast" web sites (specifically Audi websites) that it amazes me anyone even has the nerve to bring up the automatics anymore, because so many owners rant and rave about the performance hit their Audis takes with this transmission.

Tip lag has replaced that old saw Turbo-lag. And, this is probably true with this engine -- there is some turbo lag (DOH!) but so little and the torque comes on so early (sub 2000 RPMs) that it is really not an issue.

You will get a gutsy strong feel with the 1.8T with the 6spd manual or 5spd manual (I can't remember which right now it comes with). With quattro and the sport package (suspension, wheel and tire upgrades) you will have a car that "goes like a snake in a rat hole" is happy to cruise all day at 85MPH, sips PREMIUM fuel and for $500 can be chipped to add lots of grunt.

With the stick shift the chip, which can be a warranty issue, beware, is perhaps not needed.

IMHO the best A4's in order are the S4, the 1.8T quattro stick with sport package, the 3.0 quattro sitck with sport package, any of them with tip brought up by any FWD variant.

Considering that the S4 is $20+K more than the 1.8T and, again IMHO, better than the 3.0 -- I would just forget about FWD and Tip and drive off the lot with a big ol grin on your face in your new A4 1.8T quattro sport!

gismo · March 2004

Thanks markcincinatti,

I went back today and took another drive with both the FWD and AWD, but this time in a parking lot with some fresh snow( 2 ") and the difference was like night and day. I am now sold on the AWD. Only problem, is that the colors and option I want is not that common and now have to wait for 5-6 weeks.

dficco · March 2004

Mark:
You seem to be very knowledgeable about Audis and VWs. My lease is up this summer and I plan to purchase or lease an AWD sedan with manual transmission. I visited the Cleveland auto show and the Audis and VWs really stood out, at least from the interior quality and exterior styling. Even the TSX (FWD)and G35 didn't seem up to the same standards, although I did not see the new Volvo S40. I would like your opinion on A4 1.8T AWD vs A4 3.0 AWD vs Passat 1.8T AWD. Is there really much of a difference (mechanically, anyway) between Audi and VW? What is the difference, if any, between 4motion and quattro?. I plan to test drive them all this month but would like your insight. Thanks
Dane

markcincinnati · March 2004

Even within the Audi brand, which used to use only Torsen (torque sensing) AWD mechanicals, there are now two AWD technologies. Likewise VWs use both Torsen and Haldex.

Don't get too hung up on quattro vs 4Motion as a name, at this point. As I recall the Passat AWD's currently are Torsen, the R32 is Haldex, for example.

An A4 and a Passat are close cousins -- they used to be, IMHO, fraternal twins. Since the latest generation of the A4, however, they have divereged somewhat more.

The two cars are based on the same underpinnings -- and that, basically, is a good thing.

I have my opinions about which one does which thing better.

The Passat 4 dr sedan is larger than an A4 -- mainly noticed in the back seat leg room. The Passat is, in almost any configuration (except W8, sport pckg) less sporty than any of the A4 configurations.

Note: I am assuming we are only discussing all wheel driver versions of these cars -- although they both are available as FWD cars.

The Audi with the 1.8T vs the Passat with the 1.8T will probably, if driven back to back, feel more nimble, more tossable, maybe even more stable in the twisties. This is due in part to the weight and the dimensional differences between the cars. More power underfoot usually feels better, instills greater confidence, etc -- and the A4 will probably feel stonger overall.

The VW 1.8T Passat will most likely be less money (MSRP) than the Audi A4 1.8T -- when both are optioned to most people's tastes.

The Audi will come with "free everything" for 50K miles or 4 years. The VW will have the same warranty but the service costs are not included.

I get wiper blades 2 to 3 times per year on my Audi -- never is there a charge. It is my understanding that the VW wiper replacements are maintenance items and are $80 -- replacing them every four months will cost $720 over a 36 month term. Of course, if you don't want to replace your blades that often the costs for the VW are less and they don't change for the Audi.

The price difference between the two cars may be, therefore, said to be more narrow than a simple comparison of MSRP's between the VeeDub and the OOOdi.

Based on a moving target, it has been true that the leases on VW's have been less attractive than the leases on Audis -- but the target keeps moving, check at the time of your acquisition decision to see what the deal is.

My friend test drove the Passat and the Audi and the Passt, which had a somewhat lower MSRP was MORE per month on a 39 month lease than the Audi. If you are paying cash, of course this is immaterial -- and I cannot fathom that your method of acquisition will be anything other than low interest financing or leasing.

Ultimately, the cars are both good cars -- the Audi is somewhat more "up scale" than the VW, but this is not meant to damn the VW at all.

The size differences and the sportiness factor issues need to be addressed before you make either choice.

The Passat that would be the hands down winner for me would be a manual transmission, sport suspension'd W8 -- which would give you a comfortable high performance car, somewhat in the league of an Audi S4 for about $15,000 less. This car has been a sleeper in terms of sales and dealers usually have one or two sitting on their lots and it is my impression that they are "ready to deal" especially given that VW's sales are down 30% over this time last year.

A Passat W8, even without the "free maintenance" then, could be a super bargain.

If I didn't need the size of the Passat, a "regular" A4 1.8T sport quattro with manual tranmission would be my second choice -- compared with a similarly equipped Passat 1.8T (can the Passat 1.8T 4 motion be equipped with a sport package?)

Standing side by side, due to the sales slump VW seems to be in, the VW will probably be -- based on MSRP -- the bigger "bargain." But a car that is cheaper that you don't like (especially if you really liked the A4) will not satisfy you for long.

I know that we've become a society that would just like a straight answer -- but the truth of the matter is "it all depends."

Test drive them both. Option them the way YOU want them, determine the periodic cost (montly payments plus "X" amount for maintenance since repairs will be covered for 50,000 miles in either one) and pick based on your circumstances.

By the way, with respect to the choices that I would make, I would probably consider the following the Pecking Order:

1. Audi A4 1.8T manual trans, quattro sport,

2. VW Passat W8 with manual trans (it only comes w/4motion) and a distant third an

3. 3.0 Audi A4 3.0 manual trans, quattro sport.

speedracer3 · March 2004

BTW...No sport package option on a Passat 1.8T 4Motion.

dficco · March 2004

Thanks for the thorough answer. I will take a look at the Passat W8 w/ 6 speed and sport package. I also have heard that great deals can be had on the VWs, especially pre-owned. I also have heard that VW may introduce a similar "free maintenance" plan later this year.

merc1 · March 2004

You guys didn't tell me that the A4 with the Ultra Sport Package was so hot looking! I see Audi has finally painted the regular A4's body all the way down. Finally. The A4 Ultra Sport really looks like a 9/10ths S4.

M

Kirstie_H · March 2004

A reporter is hoping to interview a recent car-buyer who participated in an overnight or 24-hour test drive and then purchased the vehicle. Please respond to 248-890-8582, farataye@yahoo.com or jfallon@edmunds.com by 5pm Eastern Wednesday, March 24, 2004. Thanks, Jeannine Fallon PR Director Edmunds.com

mcwenzel · March 2004

I am about to lease an A4 with XM satellite radio. However, I have heard from several dealers that many A4's that were supposed to include the satellite radio do not, because of a shortage of head units upon arrival in the US.

The car I am going to lease states it has satellite on the sticker, but when I hit the satellite button it says "no satellite" or something like that. The salesman told me the car has it, but that there may be an issue with a loose plug in the dash that has to be connected, which "only takes ten minutes".

My question is, for any of you A4 folks with satellite radio, what does the head unit say when you hit the satellite button?

Should it say "no satellite" or something else?

Is the no satellite message a result of not yet having a subscription?

If you have the satellite radio but no subscription what should the head unit display when you hit the satellite button?

Thanks!

st4s03 · March 2004

When you purchase the car your salesman should have set the account up with XM before you left the dealership. You get a 90 day free subscription, to get you hooked, and it takes an hour or so to become effective and work on your radio. When you push the SAT button you get the XM guy recorded message on how to sign up. Then just twist the station knob til you find the stations you like and program them in. All the stations are listed on their web site. If you get the NO SAT sign then your unit must not be plugged in. By the way, some cars with the Infotainment package have a "delete Satellite Radio" credit of about $350 on the sticker. Is this on yours?

mcwenzel · March 2004

Thanks,

No, the car says it has the Infotainment, and there is no delete sattelite radio on the sticker. The salesman said it was a plug issue. I will make sure they fix it before I leave, and talk about the three month trial.

I found another car configured exactly as I want but it has the delete satellite radio on the sticker, so I didn't go for it.

davking · March 2004

I don't understand why it wouldn't have been plugged in on delivery.

chartster2 · March 2004

Even though it was listed on the window sticker. My dealer said that there was a supply problem at the time of assembly and that it was supposed to be installed at the dock. However, it still wasn't ready by the time it reached the dealer. I had to wait a couple of weeks after my purchase before it arrived. The dealer then installed it at no charge (in the trunk area somewhere). After having XM for 5 months, I can't imagine driving my car without it! It is definitely worth it. I just prepaid a three-year subscription (you get a discount).

sdradioguy · March 2004

I, too, bought an '04 A4 with the Infotainment package and a head unit that kept telling me NO SAT RADIO every time I hit the SAT button.

The first explanation from the dealer was, as chartster said, that there was a supply problem and some A4s were arriving without the XM module. It was then determined that mine DID have the module, it just wasn't properly connected. Once that was fixed, I started getting XM loud and clear, and, like chartster, I can't imagine on-the-road life without it -- although I haven't gone so far as to buy 3 years of service up front.

gismo · April 2004

The dealer could not find the configuration/colors/options I wanted, so they had to factory order the A4. They said it would take 2 months, but does anyone have gone through similar experience and had to wait much longer ? I only ask because I must return my leased car in a month and probably have to rent a car.

andys120 · April 2004

I doubt you'll have to wait more than 2 months.
You could also consider seeing if there's any cars at other dealers that have the "gotta have" options that you must have and avoid the expense of the rental.

fmcdonnell5 · April 2004

I placed an order for an A4 3.0 6MT with the exact features I wanted and received the car in 11 weeks. While it was a bit painful to wait for it, it was worth it.

tim_hooligan · April 2004

Mark,

OK, so you think I'm a poser. Thanks. I have an '01 Tip Fronttrak...I know...the worst combo for an A4. But, I must say that it's still the most fun car to drive. As far as safety goes, I have NEVER had an issue with snow/ice/rain since we don't get much around DC. When we do, the roads get plowed and I'm on my way. To me, it's the DRIVER that's the important link to safety. I have never gotten stuck, spun, or had control issues.

Sure, my top choice would've been for the Quattro with 5-speed, but i didn't want to shift through DC traffic. PLus, the Tip/Quattro combo was just a dog. Felt just too slow for me. Personal opinion.

As for resale, we'll wait and see. I'm going to be selling old Bluie off pretty soon. If Quattro cost $1800 more MSRP new, I would expect an equal ratio at resale. Just for quick reference, here's the KBB PPV for my car with FWD vs. AWD. Granted, resale will be EASIER with AWD, but maybe not lucrative in a sense.

Private Party Value $16,695 (FWD)
Private Party Value $18,380 (AWD)

Depreciation would appear to be a little higher on the FWD. But also consider this...I most likely got an EXCELLENT deal when initially buying the car! (bought the leftover '01 back when the 02s came out. dumb move. i know.)

hindsight is always 20/20, but looking back is still a bit fuzzy.

nyccarguy · April 2004

you should post in "Real World Trade In Values" board here on TH. Edmunds TMV and KBB value are one thing, but what you'll actually get is a different story.

pat · April 2004

Can anybody help this person in this new discussion: car_lover1 "Audi 100" Apr 5, 2004 1:58pm?

spursrule · April 2004

I will be buying an A4 1.8T this fall then the 2005's come out. Anyone know if the 2005 A4 will have the new front grill like the 2005 A6 and A8 will have? Also, do any 1.8T owners also wonder why the multi-function steering wheel is not available on the 1.8T? It's hard to believe that you can't get this with the 1.8T. Thanks.

markcincinnati · April 2004

. . .there will be a 2005.5 A4 -- facelift; followed by an "all new" 2006 A4. The initial 2005's will look a lot like the 2004's, the 2005.5's will be dealer ready in February 2005.

This, according to my dealer who received "order sheet" instructions on March 16th pertaining to "how to address" such inquiries. New A6's October 29th, new A6's will all options (e.g., air suspension) first Q 2005.

This may be subject to some modification, as it always is, but these sheets are generally mostly accurate plus or minus a couple of weeks.

The 2005.5 apparently will have the new Audi grill look. The 2006's will go further and probably offer the MMI that is coming from the A8 to the new A6. Other engine, tranmission etc features and options certainly will come with the 2006's too.

Personally, knowing this, I'd try to hold out for a 2006 A4 -- if you like the new face of Audi -- the 2005.5's will be mostly cosmetically changed.

spursrule · April 2004

markcincinnati, thanks for the great info. On an earlier message I believe you indicated the 2006 A4 may be available somewhere between March and May 2005. If so it looks like the A4 roadmap is getting crowded -- 2005 available this fall, the 2005.5 around February 2005 (perhaps with the new grill), and the 2006 a few months later.

This makes for a tough choice - I love the aluminum interior trim with the current 1.8T (with the sport package option) but with my luck they will not offer it after this year. On the other hand, I have seen spy cam pictures of the new A4 grill and although I'm indifferent when comparing this to the current grill, I would have to see it "in person" to decide. If I don't like the new grill it may be too late to get an A4 with the current grill. Oh well, maybe I'll lease, as you suggested in an earlier message regarding depreciating property (an excellent point).

Do you have any details on the "all new" 2006? Other than the new grill, will it be a completely new body style? What else? I'm hesitant to buy the first year of a new model because the manufacturer inevitably makes improvements after the first year -- for instance, the current A4 was introduced as a 2002 model but did not offer a power driver seat until the end of the 2003 model year. And don't get me started on the lack of steering wheel audio controls for the 1.8T, my BMW 323i and my wife's Honda Pilot both have this feature and it would be tough to get by without it. Nevertheless, I prefer the A4 to the 323 and look forward to getting one. Thanks!

Audi A4 2004 and earlier

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