Honda Civic vs. Hyundai Elantra

gregoryc1 · November 2004

QUESTIONS: ----What will be the mechanical condition of your Hyundai Elantra at 60,000 miles? When it comes time to trade it in, what part of your $13,200 will you get back from the dealer? Will is hold it's value like the Civic? Will you be able to sell this vehicle to another person, other than a dealer? Does it perform like a Civic? Does it perform better than a Civic? Is the quality the same as a Civic. What is your Elantra presently worth? Does it perform as good as a Civic? When it comes time to replace parts, will they be available? Is the dealer service as good as a Honda product?

backy · November 2004

ANSWERS:

What will be the mechanical condition of your Hyundai Elantra at 60,000 miles?
Since the mechanical condition of my four-year-old Elantra with 30k miles is excellent, I don't see any reason to think the condition at 60k won't be fine. And both cars will still be under warranty at that time. How much warranty would be left on a Civic at 60k miles, in case, say, the auto tranny fails (and we know Honda has had its problems with automatic trannies)?

When it comes time to trade it in, what part of your $13,200 will you get back from the dealer?
Since I'll be keeping each car for 10-11 years, I expect I'll get very little when I sell them--maybe a couple of thousand for the loaded GT that cost $13,200 new.

Will is hold it's value like the Civic?
See above. What would be the depreciation from the purchase price on a Civic EX after 10-11 years? Would it be greater than about $11k? I expect it would.

Will you be able to sell this vehicle to another person, other than a dealer?
I expect I will. I take very good care of my cars, whether they are Hondas or Hyundais, and I've never had any problem selling them to private parties for a fair price. But after 10-11 years of service, I won't worry too much about it.

Does it perform like a Civic?
In some respects, yes. In some ways, better. The Civic has two advantages: slightly smoother stick shift, and slightly better fuel economy. The Elantra has more torque, about the same acceleration, choice of ride comfort (GLS) or sport-tuned suspension (GT), and a quiet ride. The driving position with 8-way seat and a full center console is far superior to that in the Civic, IMO.

Does it perform better than a Civic?
See above.

Is the quality the same as a Civic?
Since I've owned Civics and Elantras, I'd say the quality of the Elantras is at least as good as that of the Civics. One failed part (an O2 sensor) in four years on the '01, nothing wrong on the GT. Tight and even panel gaps and glossy paint outside, smooth switchgear and nice stitching on the leather seats inside. CR rates the Elantra and Civic both Above Average in predicted reliability.

What is your Elantra presently worth?
'01 about $5-6000, GT about $11,000. In other words, the GLS is worth about half of what I paid for it after four years, the GT has lost about $2000 in almost one year.

Does it perform as good as a Civic?
I think we already covered that.

When it comes time to replace parts, will they be available?
No problems finding parts so far. Good service from my Hyundai dealer. Why wouldn't they be available? Hyundai sells over 100,000 of these cars just in the U.S. each year. It's not like they are rare.

Is the dealer service as good as a Honda product?
As I said, dealer service has been just fine in both dealers from which I've taken my cars for service.

gregoryc1 · November 2004

Point of information! ----Our 2004 Civic is covered by a 7 year 100,000 mile bumper to bumper 0 deductable Honda extended warranty. Does your Hyundai have the same warranty coverage, or does the terms and conditions of the warranty decrease over time?

blueiedgod · November 2004

And both cars will still be under warranty at that time. How much warranty would be left on a Civic at 60k miles, in case, say, the auto tranny fails (and we know Honda has had its problems with automatic trannies)?

I am pretty sure the 10 year/100,000 mile warranty is only for the drive train, nothing more. I have a friend with a Kia Sportage (same company). Her car would not drive when it is wet outside, so much for a rugged off roader. She left it at the dealer, they fixed it and presnted her with a $400 bill for replacing the main wire harness that was disablening transmission when it was wet. She tried to argue that it was part of drive train, since it affected transmission. No go, she ended up paying the "reduced" bill of $350. So much for the 10 year/100,00 mile warranty.
As far as Honda's auto failure rate. Honda has stepped up to the plate and has increased the warranty coverage on the affected transmissions. Although it is a hush hush, the dealer's service depratments know. And if some were out of warranty and paid for tranny work, Honda will reimburse them once the claim is submitted. Besides, everyone knows that Honda should only have a manual. They make one of the best manual transmissions out there. Honda with automatic tranny is an oxymoron. I hate to say that, but whoever buys a Honda with a slushbox deserves a failing tranny. They are crippling a fineley made motor in the most inhumane way. IMHO.

backy · November 2004

Let's compare apples to apples here. The 7-year, 100,000 mile bumper-to-bumper 0 deductible warranty on the Civic was not the standard factory warranty, correct? It was additional cost--either when purchased new, or increased the price of the used car. Be sure to add that cost to the TCO equation for the Civic. The 5-year, 60,000 mile bumper-to-bumper, 0 deductible warranty and 10 year/100,000 mile, 0 deductible powertrain warranty on my Elantras is the standard, no-extra-cost warranty. For about $8-900 more I had the option to increase the bumper-to-bumper warranty to 10 years/100,000 miles. That's 3 years longer than the extended warranty on the Civic.

As for transmission problems, warranties cover what they cover. If someone wants to cover every part (except normal wear items), including wiring harnesses, they can purchase the extended warranty, like gregoryc1 did on his Civic. If there's a mechanical problem with my GT's automatic transmission, or with the engine, I know it's covered for 10 years, 100,000 miles. You can't say that for a Civic, even with an extended warranty. The probability of such a problem is pretty low, I know, but if a problem like that would happen (and it can happen on a Honda as well as a Hyundai) it would be expensive to repair.

csandste · November 2004

The dealer usually gets about a 100% markup. Not worth the $$$ unless your car is a lemon which is probably not the case with a Civic. Adding the extended warranty to an Elantra makes even less sense IMHO.

themanx · November 2004

I agree with csandste... the ELANTRA is built so well the extended warranty is not needed!

ElantraStan

cruzn · January 2005

I purchased my 1997 Hyundai Accent (2/98) 5 speed with air new for less than $7000. I drive 90 miles a day and have averaged about 25,000 to 30,000 miles a year and currently have 172,000 miles on the car. Clutch done once and timing belt done twice. The only problem I've had is that there currently is a hole in the exhaust pipe and the clutch now needs adjusting. Still average between 32 and 36 MPGs.

Best car for the price that I've ever owned - and I have owned 5 other new cars.

themanx · January 2005

Sounds like you do alot of road drivinging which is not as severe as city driving.

that was a good car for sure!

design4car · January 2005

You are absolutely correct about the demographics of the typical buyer/driver.

Driving style and maintenance habits are the two primary factors that determine life expectancy of any vehicle.

rutger3 · January 2005

Okay, the elantra does offer more standard equipment, a better warranty, and a better price than Honda/Toyota. This alone makes it a viable option to those vehicles. The fit and finish and overall reliability have improved much since 5 years ago.

However the elantra falls short in other areas:

- EPA mileage is lower than the Civic, and even the Accord which is much heavier. Hyundai should be able to do better.

- Crash tests while decent, not as good as Civic.

- The Corolla is available with curtain airbags.

- Resale values will definitely be much lower than the Civic or Corolla. This is reduced though if you keep it for 10 yrs or 100k miles.

danf1 · January 2005

I agree with the gas mileage. Crash tests can vary, don't crash and you don't need to worry. The curtain airbags will be available next year

but once again don't crash.

Resale value needs to be looked as a percentage of what you paid for the car, not what its msrp was. When you consider what people actually pay for an elantra as opposed to a civic or corolla, it isn't as bad as it looks on paper.

rutger3 · January 2005

Yes,when looking at resale values, need to look at total cost including orig.purchase price, so if you pay 16k for civic and trade 5 yrs later and get 6k, cost is 10k. If you pay 13k for elantra and get 3k on trade, then the net result is the same.

As for the 'dont crash' comment,you do not always have control of these things. If someone runs a red light or crosses the yellow line it is simply a matter of chance. Even the best driver cant avoid these types of accidents.

bikerpa · January 2005

just to pick nits, if you paid $3k less originally, then one ought to factor the tax on that $3k as well. This can add up to be a siginificant chunk, depending on how your state/county deals with it.

smith20 · January 2005

"just to pick nits, if you paid $3k less originally, then one ought to factor the tax on that $3k as well. This can add up to be a siginificant chunk, depending on how your state/county deals with it."

This is reminding me of a series of posts back in May in the Low End Sedans thread . . .

it got real nit-picky.

Also, if you're borrowing money to buy either car, you have to factor in the extra interest that borrowing an additional $3,000. If you're able to pay cash for either car, then what about the opportunity cost lost of spending that additional $3,000 in an appreciating asset instead of a depreciating asset. Even the BEST cars still lose money. Merely putting that $3,000 in a shoebox under the bed and gaining no appreciation will do better than the "good" retained value of the Civic or Corolla.

I believe the true financial impact is much trickier than just a single percentage.

danf1 · January 2005

Don't crash truly was a joke, but sound advice still.

gregoryc1 · January 2005

The cost of the 7 year / 100,000 mile "0" deductable warranty on our Honda vehicles was as follows: 2003 4 cylinder Accord: ---$875.000, 2004 4 cylinder Civic: ---$975.00

backy · January 2005

Thanks. With that info, the cost difference including warranty (using Edmunds.com's TMV prices for my area) for a GLS automatic with pkg 3 (cruise + CD) and a Civic LX with SABs is:

Elantra: $12,597

Civic: $17,241

Difference: $4644

Sales tax on that difference in my state is $301.86, so it's about a $5,000 difference up front. That will be partly offset by lower fuel costs for the Civic over the lifetime of the car, but as mentioned earlier, you can invest the difference, and the interest alone will pay the gas difference for most people.

mononeo · March 2005

I am a college student, and I attend the University of Oregon.
The following is why I have decided that the Elantra is better than the Civic.

I commute to and from school every day. This is about 15-20 miles in heavy city traffic everyday. Some days, there are 45-60 minute traffic jams for a 15 mile drive. Here in Eugene, sometimes it is 25 degrees, other days it is 95 degrees, so we have varitable weather. I am an 18 year old male, and I am what someone like my father would call a "lead foot." Sometimes, all of my driving is hard city driving, and other it is all freeway, so I have a well-rounded idea of each car.

My father drives a 2004 Honda Civic EX. My best friend drives a 2004 Hyundai Elantra GT. The Civic EX rang in about $19,000 after the non-debatable Oregon dealer markup for Hondas, and it is an automatic (this car is not equipped with side airbags). The Elantra GT (with ABS, Traction Control, sunroof, leather: whole enchilada basically) cost her about $13,000 while on sale at the Hyundai dealership. I drive a 1993 Honda Accord LX coupe with 180,000 miles on it and I have decided that my next car will be a Hyundai, not a Honda.

Driving back and forth in the Civic in the heavy city driving, you will see the gas mileage dip tremendously. The Civic gets 35 miles per gallon on the freeway at 60 miles per hous, but we have calculated it at an astonishing 24 miles per gallon on average in this kind of city driving. The Elantra's EPA estimates suggest that the car would get worse mileage, it doesn't. On the freeway, the Elantra rings in at 33 miles per gallon. In the city however, the Elantra gets 30 no matter what kind of driving is occuring. Mind you, this is with the air conditioning on in most cases.

Not only does the Elantra make more sense from a fiscal standpoint, as it gets better mileage and costs less, but it also is just as reliable. According to Strategic Vision, and published in USA Today, 54% of Hyundai owners buy another Hyundai. This is second only to Mercedes. You may say that this is based on price, but it is not, as Kias (which are owned by Hyundai and are purposefully less quality cars) are even cheaper and do not retain such loyalty. My friend had a 2000 Elantra before this one and she put 100,000 miles on it in 3.5 years. My father is the kind of guy that puts 250,000 miles on a car before he gets rid of them. Both of them swear by the reliability of the cars, and it makes sense. Both are extremely reliable. The only discrepency is that my father's last Civic had to have its automatic transmission replaced at 55,000 miles (a 1998 Civic LX sedan) which cost a whopping $2400 on a car worth about $8000... So yes, Hondas do need warranties. On the other hand, the Elantras have never had any mechanical malfunctions, and the minor repairs they have seen (like fuses going out, blah blah) have all been repaired free of charge. So what are we at now? Hyundai 3, Honda 0? Or is it more than that?!

Going on, the Honda gets tired. This sounds strange, but it is true. If you drive a Honda roughly, the car will get worn out and need to cool off. The engines have troubles with overheating when you drive too hard because they have plastic radiators (unlike the Hyundai), and the cheap drum brakes in the rear, and poorly ventilated discs in the front overheat like no other car I have ever seen. One more thing to point out about getting tired is the fact that the Honda is not comfortable. I guess there is no Japanese translation for the words 'lumbar support.' The Honda's we've had all have uncomfortable seats that make you tire 10 minutes into a commute. The Elantra on the other hand has supremely comfortable seats that almost seam luxurious, if you have to sit in them for long bouts. I attribute this to the fact that the Elantra is made for Europeans and Americans, who buy many times over more Elantras than the domestic market of Korea buys, whereas Civics sell just as primarily in Asian markets as America.

As far as fun to drive factors, this is a more even match. Comparing the two vehicles, it's all about taste. The Elantra has a more supple ride. The Civic has a firm ride. The Elantra does get floatly, but feels much more substantial than the Civic. The Civic has balanced handling, but every corner feels the same no matter how slow or fast you're driving, and the wheel doesn't give you enough input a lot of the time. This is the fork in the road. The Civic always drive the same. The Elantra doesn't. The Elantra most of the time is very smooth and comfortable, but if you need to take hard corners, you just gas it and it powers out of the corner with minimal understeer, while the Civic retains its moderate understeer at all times. So, whatever kind of handling characteristics you like, the cars are tailored to different tastes. I would give my seal of approval to the Elantra.

As far as power, there is no comparison. The Honda Civic is a decidedly slow car. The Elantra is no rocket, but it has the get-up-and-go of cars in the next class up. The Civic feels like a subcompact Hyundai Accent or Kia Rio in its engine's driving demeanor, while the Elantra actually feels like it has a similar powerband to a 2005 Honda Accord 4-cylinder (when with automatic) factoring in power-to-weight characteristics. If you floored them both from a stop next to each other, they'd probably be a close match, though I'd put money on the Elantra. It's in the mid-range where the Elantra really kicks though. The Elantra has an even powerband. The Civic only has power on the top. When you floor the Elantra from a stop (w/ traction control turned off) it will actually spin its tires (and by the way, the Elantra comes with better tires than the Civic), while the Civic feels like it has an asthma attack all the way up to the redline.

As far as build-quality, both cars are put together extremely well. You can push and pull on both cars' panels and interior pieces and nothing is going to come loose. The quality of the materials inside differs somewhat. The Civic is made of excellent materials that are not executed in design very well, while the Elantra uses good materials that are executed in design much better than the Civic. Feel the HVAC controls in both cars, the Elantra's feel nicer. It is my humble prediction that the next Elantra will definitely have a stepped-up interior compared to the current one, just as what happened with the last generation and the current. My squabbles with the Elantra are its lack of chrome pieces on things like the auto shifter, around the gauges, and on the interior door handles. There is also some hard plastic on the front doors inside. The Civic has the stupidest placement for cup holders I have ever seen in a car. The Elantra has a dampened glovebox, so all of your stuff doesn't come crashing down when opened. The Civic does not. The Elantra has plastic on the back of

backy · March 2005

Thanks for your thorough comparison (I think it got truncated at the end, though--character limit in the Forums). As an owner of two Elantras and a former owner of two Civics, I agree with much of what you said. However, I have yet to achieve 30 mpg on a regular basis on in-town driving on either my 5-speed '01 GLS or my '04 GT automatic. I get really close to 30 in town in the summer on my GLS, but in the winter it's closer to 27-28. With the automatic GT, I can get mid-to-upper 20s, but my wife, with a lead foot, gets low 20s in town. However, I do pretty well on the highway with both cars, getting low 40s at moderate speeds (60-65) with the GLS and upper 30s with the GT automatic. One thing I really appreciate is the good torque on the Elantra vs. the Civic. I can glide around at 1500 rpm with the Elantras with no problem, and I find I don't need to downshift as much because of the ample torque. Not so on the Civic.

blueiedgod · March 2005

My father drives a 2004 Honda Civic EX. My best friend drives a 2004 Hyundai Elantra GT. The Civic EX rang in about $19,000 after the non-debatable Oregon dealer markup for Hondas, and it is an automatic (this car is not equipped with side airbags). The Elantra GT (with ABS, Traction Control, sunroof, leather: whole enchilada basically) cost her about $13,000 while on sale at the Hyundai dealership.

Everything is negotiable in this world, just because your friend is better negotiator than your father does not mean that Civic is overpriced. There are plenty of people who got their 2004 Civic EX's for high $14K - mid-$15K's.

I drive a 1993 Honda Accord LX coupe with 180,000 miles on it and I have decided that my next car will be a Hyundai, not a Honda.

I am glad you liked the Elantra. Now, come back when it hits 250,000 miles and report then. I have yet to see a Hyundai get that high in miles and is still marketable. On the other hand, I sold my 1985 Civic DX with 250,000 miles for a cool $1500.

I attribute this to the fact that the Elantra is made for Europeans and Americans, who buy many times over more Elantras than the domestic market of Korea buys, whereas Civics sell just as primarily in Asian markets as America.

I am not sure what you meant by that sentnce, but North America is Honda's biggest market. Toyota rules the Japanese domestic market in sales. But, I will give you this, Hondas fit me perfectly, and are the only compacts that I feel comfortable in (6 foot at 190 lbs)

The only Hyundai I would consider is the new Tiburon, but I would still stuff it with Honda internals. Just because Hyundai paid Pininnfarina to design the shell still does not make it a reliable car. Besides, when was the last time you heard "reliable" and "Italian car" in one sentence?

This is the fork in the road. The Civic always drive the same. The Elantra doesn't. The Elantra most of the time is very smooth and comfortable, but if you need to take hard corners, you just gas it and it powers out of the corner with minimal understeer, while the Civic retains its moderate understeer at all times.
Maybe that is why Hyundai Elantra's are so popular with auto cross people. Oh wait a minute, I have not seen one Hyundai Elantra GT get to the top 10 in auto cross, they are always Honda Cvic, Acura integra, and an occasional BMW or Lexus.

Enjoy the Hyundai, maybe time will tell. Back in the 70's and 80's people were bad mouthing Honda's and Toyota, but they perseviered. So far, since 1986, Hyundai has not proven it self being long living.

backy · March 2005

Please tell me where I can buy a '05 Civic EX 4-door automatic (list about $18,800) for high $14k's, or about $4000 off MSRP (way, way under invoice). I will probably go buy one, since I could sell it for more than that.

john500 · March 2005

Eloquent review, however, I'd listen to blue-eyed god on this one before buying your car. I think a statiscally representative negotiated price would be about 17,000 for a loaded Civic EX and 14,000 for a loaded Elantra GT. If you intend to keep the car for a long time (100,000 miles +), Honda engines have proven to be the most durable over time. If you intend to sell the car after 5 years, I think the Hyundai might be a reasonable choice based upon the warranty (5 years instead of 3). However, barring a marketing bonanza by Hyundai, you will probably lose the $3,000 initial price savings with the lower resale value of the Hyundai after 5 years. Therefore, you are back to break-even and your comfort and style preferences should dictate your purchase.
Your comment about the seats has sparked my interest. I've always been extremely fit (almost obsessively so), however, shortly after buying a Honda Civic in 2003 I've had an annoying back-ache that I can't pin down the source of other than the timing of me buying the Civic. Maybe I need to look at a Hundai if the seats are that comfortable.

backy · March 2005

Please do check out the Elantra re driver's seat. That was its #1 benefit for me over almost every other car in its class. C/D has called the Elantra's seat adjusters the best in the business.

P.S. My loaded Elantra GT 5-door was $13,200 + T&L last year, including 3 years scheduled maintenance. Civic wasn't even in the mix then because it's not offered in 5-door sedan.

bikerpa · March 2005

It's amazing how folks seem to be willing to purchase a car based on speculation and gut feel. Comparing a '95 Civic to anything made today is apples & oranges at best; "reliable" and "Italian car" certainly don't belong in the same sentence, but that same paragraph mentioned that it is only the shell; I could go on and on, with preconceived notions pertaining to Honda, Hyundai, and any other manufacturer from Toyota to Land Cruiser. I've heard of Volvo 240DLs last a quarter of a million miles and I've seen one owned by a co-worker totally *censored* after 80k.

Objectively speaking, my Elantra GT provided far more amenities (leather, CD/MP3, keyless, 4 door hatch functionality, alloys) than anything else within $3500 of the purchase price ($11,622), with a warranty that easily covers the entire time I will be making payments. How can one beat that?

Also, I've gotta second the driver's seat. If you get in one, check out the little 3-position lever right under the side airbag "SRS" embroidery. That additional lumbar support makes the hours slip by far more comfortably.

csandste · March 2005

is the new Tiburon, but I would still stuff it with Honda internals."

What does that mean???

blueiedgod · March 2005

is the new Tiburon, but I would still stuff it with Honda internals."

What does that mean???

I like the body. Pininnfarina did a good job on it. I bet you it cost Hyundai a pretty penny to have an Italian design firm make design a shell. I wish Honda would hire someone to do a hot design. But in my world, being not a superficial person, what's inside counts more than looks. This is why I stick with not so hot looking Honda's, that provide reliable and fund to drive transportation.

blueiedgod · March 2005

Please tell me where I can buy a '05 Civic EX 4-door automatic (list about $18,800) for high $14k's, or about $4000 off MSRP (way, way under invoice). I will probably go buy one, since I could sell it for more than that.

You said your father has a 2004, this is what people paid for 2004 last fall. Check Honda prices paid board and scroll back to september - december 2004. Although Honda does not offer rebates, they do offer dealer incentives. People in the know, like visitors to Edmunds, know what these incentives are, and are skilled negotiators. People who walk into the dealership off the street, unprepared, are usually taken to the MSRP price and pay it.

Enjoy the Hyundai, just remember that I paid $14,500 for the Civic Si (highest trim you can get in the Civic line up), brand new with 8 miles on the odo, got 1.9% APR. So, everything is possible. There are people who paid less than I did for the Si, like $13,800.

backy · March 2005

I never said my father has a Hyundai. He died in 1976.

Your post was in the present tense, so I assumed you meant people can buy a Civic EX automatic (the car we were discussing in this thread) now for high $14k's. If you want to pick a specific time period, I'll refer to ads from Hyundai dealers offering new '04 Elantras for $8k. So now it's a $6-7k difference. Like you said, everything is possible.

blueiedgod · March 2005

I was referring to mononeo's post, not sure why it showed as I replied to yours. Sorry.

I have not seen Elantra GT's offered for $8K, this is about what it is worth. It is a good deal to get a brand new Hyundai Elantra GT for $8K, anything else is simple too much money for it.

backy · March 2005

That is hilarious--a car with a VVT engine with more power and torque than the Civic EX, sport suspension, 4-wheel disc brakes, alloy wheels, leather interior, 6-speaker sound system, 8-way driver's seat, power everything, and 10-year warranty is not worth new any more than $8,000??? I really don't know how you can justify paying even $15k for a Civic EX then.

I haven't seen a new Elantra GT for $8k either--my previous post talked about Elantras, not Elantra GTs. Actually, GTs hold their value pretty well. Partly because they are pretty rare, but also I think because they are seen as very desirable small cars. Where else can you get the performance and features of the Elantra GT for starting at a little over $12k after rebates and discounts?

danf1 · March 2005

And a few minutes later you denigrated car salespeople referring to "some boob car salesman." So I might ask, by 2025 will that stereotype also drop and make yourself a "curiosity"?

john500 · March 2005

Although blueidegod is pro-Honda, his criticisms are very fair and echo mine. Hyundai is still a "new" car. Conventional advice to an 18 year old kid is to go with what is known and allow other people (with more disposable money) to validate the quality of Hyundai. To paraphrase the closing comments in post 1080, Hyundai may very well be a "diamond in the rough". As you mentioned though, the public perception of quality will lag the actual quality. In the meantime, if a consumer decides to sell the car, the consumer will pay for it with a lower resale value. In the 2004 automobile issue, I believe Kiplinger rated some of the Hyundai models at a staggering 10 % retail value versus about 35 % for Honda models after 5 years.

backy · March 2005

Interesting comment. Actually, one of the main reasons I bought my two Hyundais is that I do NOT have much disposable income to spend on cars--I have much better things to spend my money on than depreciating assets that rust in the salt slime of Minnesota winters. I plan to hold onto each one within my family for at least 11 years. Resale value is a non sequitur in that equation. Instead of paying $8-10,000 more for my two cars than I did (e.g. if I had bought Civics instead of Elantras), I have that money in my pocket (actually in interest-earning investments).

BTW, 10% resale value after 5 years is absolute bunk. I see '01 Elantra GLSes every day for sale in the $6000 range. That is a little more than half what I paid for my '01 GLS 4-1/2 years ago. I guess that means I'll see the value drop $5000 in the next 6 months. ;-) These kinds of figures are meaningless. You need to look at actual out-of-pocket costs over the life of ownership, not some paper figures.

csandste · March 2005

Actually the local Hyundai dealer uses 18 year old kids who bird-dog potential customers and annoy them with statements like "would you buy this Tucson today for $10,000?" I've offered twice and they back up when I pull out my Discover card.

That's one reason why I purchased a Malibu Maxx rather than another Hyundai (along with the increased flexibility). Hyundai still has a way to go with dealer (and salesperson professionalism). Chevy despite the anti-GM rants has really learned-- from Saturn, I think.

So-- not all car salesmen fit the stereotype, but Hyundai has farther to go in professionalising their sales force than they do in improving the hardware. A good sales experience is something that has been Toyota's weak spot for years, and my local Hyundai dealership also peddles Nissans (Hyundai has outsold them for years).

As to AutoTrader, without going back and checking, I think it's a self-listing service. I've e-mailed used car contacts in the past who've mislisted a vehicle --i.e. peddling a 97 Cavalier with 70,000 for $13,995, checked back and never seen any changes or recognition when I've pointed it out. So not all used car salesmen (or new car) are boobs but some of them certainly are.

The bird-dog (who I insisted get a cut of the action) when I bought my '01 Hyundai was peddling carpets when I ran into him two weeks later. He quit, because the sales manager and higher ups "were a bunch of jerks who treated us all like crap." "When I was buying a car this go around, each of the competing (Mazda, Chrysler, Chevy), dealers that I checked with had ex-salesmen with horror stories about working for this particular multi-line dealer.

Avoiding this abuse is what gave Saturn some success despite having barely adequate product.

danf1 · March 2005

So you had a problem with one particular dealership. It just seemed like you were making a broad stroke generalization of all car salespeople. That sounds like a terrible store, and I can assure you that Hyundai and Nissan are probably not pleased with them due to low CSI scores.

blueiedgod · March 2005

That is hilarious--a car with a VVT engine with more power and torque than the Civic EX, sport suspension, 4-wheel disc brakes, alloy wheels, leather interior, 6-speaker sound system, 8-way driver's seat, power everything, and 10-year warranty is not worth new any more than $8,000??? I really don't know how you can justify paying even $15k for a Civic EX then.

It is always cheaper to knock someone else's design to make it cheaper. VVT, even if Hyundai has it, is what Honda developed in late 80's (VTEC) and installed on a Honda NSX in 1991, and the rest of the line couple of years later. Well, Honda has moved on to i-VTEC, while Hyundai is just installing VVT on their engines. That is progress I guess, 16 years later the VTEC patent must have expired, so Hyundai jumped on it.

In all fairness, I am not anti-Korean. There are certain things that Korean manufacturers have proven them selves. Electronics is one of them, GoldStar was the best bang for a buck you could get in the 90's. Even now LG is good quality. I have had GoldStar TV's and microwaves that kept on going way past their expected life. But Korean automotive manufacturers are only starting to show the same attention to quality process as they did to Electronics in the 80's. Statistically it takes 7-12 years to start producing quality product from the onset of quality oriented procedures.

To another poster, even though someone advertizes their 2001 Hyundai at $6K does not mean it will sell at that. A 10 year old Civic EX (twice the age, 1994 model year) will sell for $6K the day the ad published. The Civic EX selling price in 1994 was $12,000-$13,000, this is a 50% residual on a 10 year old car.

backy · March 2005

Yes, Honda had VVT technology before Hyundai. How many other small cars have VVT engines? Why haven't, for example, Ford, GM, and DC "jumped" on the Honda patents? BTW, I sure wish Honda would jump on the Hyundai patent for their dual-knob seat-height adjuster--assuming it's patented. I'd like the Civic a lot more if it had that feature.

If it takes 7-12 years to start producing quality product, how is it that there is statistical and anecdotal evidence that Hyundai has already greatly improved the quality of their cars just in the past five years?

Prices from today's local paper:

'94 Civic EX: CA car, automatic, very nice - $2800/bo. (the only '94 EX advertised; other '94 Civics, mostly LXes, range from $2199-3995. So about $10k depreciation in ten years, assuming the EX could be had for $12-13k (they were $15k when I shopped for a 5-speed in '95, so $12-13k for an automatic seems kind of low to me).

There were no '01 Elantras advertised. The closest to it was a '02 Elantra GT 5-speed, $9995, which is about 20-25% depreciation from purchase price over 3+ years. Not too shabby.

mononeo · March 2005

It's funny that you mention this, the car I had before my Accord was a 1977 Volvo 245DL with 320,000 miles on it. That car, with 70s technology got 35 miles per gallon with a 4-speed stick shift. Oh to reminess.

mononeo · March 2005

I am really tired of people bringing up resale value. This doesn't take Kiplingers to tell us what is the truth. I may be 18, and you may claim I am naive, but I have probably taken a college statistics class or economics class a lot more recently than you have

. The residual values of cars put into percentages by firms like Kiplingers is representative of the price cars sold for based on their original MSRP. Hondas sell for their actual MSRPs. So when the residual values are calculated, and you see that the Hyundai has a lower value after five years, this is not necessarily true.

Let's do some math!:

The following statistics are provided by Edmunds TrueMarketValue assessments and are considered without customizing any statistics (basically, if you go to TMV, these are the prices that are going to show up before you do anything).

2001 Elantra GLS versus 2001 Honda Civic LX
(no options except automatic transmission added)

-A 2005 Elantra GLS today sells on average for $12,032 according to Edmunds.
-A 2005 Civic LX today sells on average for $15,994 according to Edmunds.
>Reiterating, this is Edmunds' TMV system, not my own conjecture.

Now, we to make this comparison simpler, we're going to just suppose that these cars sold for the same prices in 2001.
>The cars in the pricing are both black cars with 60,000 miles (15,000 miles per year industry average over four years) and no optional equipment other than automatic transmission. Although, I did have to select that the Elantra had the optional equipment of keyless entry and perimeter alarm, as the Elantra does come standard with these. Edmunds does not recognize this.

-The used 2001 Civic under the suggested and afforementioned conditions comes in at a TMV price of $10,178 dealer retail.

-The used 2001 Elantra under the suggested and afforementioned conditions comes in at a TMV price of $6935.

This means that the cars dropped in value:
-Honda Civic LX depreciated 36.36%
-Hyundai Elantra GLS depreciated 42.38%

Yes, the Civic does have better resale value. How much better? Clearly, not by much. People may be wondering though, what about all of these other people talking about Elantras for $8000 and Civics for $14000? Well let's run those numbers too.

Under the same conditions as before, except the original price paid of the cars was lowered to the prices claimed by the conjecture in this forum, these are the resale rates:

The 2001 "conjecture" car pricing:
-The Honda Civic LX depreciated 27.8%
-The Hyundai Elantra GLS depreciated 13.32%

What does this tell us? You decide. I know that I have seen Elantras regularly in Saturday newspaper ads for $7500-8500. I also admit that I have seen Civics in Saturday newspaper ads for $14000 for an LX. These are both great deals for these cars, but if you consider that if the Elantra has a lower entry point, and then almost doesn't depreciate at all, what is the better deal? It's like you get to drive your Elantra without it depreciating. Considering you don't have to pay for repairs, all you have to pay for is maintenance, gasoline, and the actual car: you're putting miles on your car for almost no loss of resale value!! That is amazing to me, and it should be to you as well. Granted the Civic has faired well in this test, but for the other car to depreciate so minimally is shocking.

BUT I AM NOT DONE:
I have a few more points.

Despite what comment someone has made about my father's negotiation skills (which I find funny, as I did not take them personal at all, I just thought it was funny someone thinks you can substantially negotiate Honda pricing), it is the truth that Honda does not like to budge on pricing. I live in a small metro area, and seeing as how there is only ONE Honda dealership, they are able to add onto the price a smokin' $2000 market value adjustment. If you are going to negotiate anything, it is going to be in this "adjustment" when it is a Honda. Hondas do not have rebates available. Period. That is not negotiation, that is economics. Another striking difference is that at our local Hyundai dealership, they post the invoice prices on each and every car. The salesman helping me used to work at the Honda dealership (which are coincidentally owned by the same group: Kendall, and I know he is telling the truth as I've encountered him there in the past) so he is knowledgable of both lines. I thought they had mistakenly left the invoice sheets on the cars, as they were clearly from the distribution facility, but he confirmed that they were intentionally placed there. I asked him if that was something Kendall Auto Group does, and he explained that they do this for all brands when they are having sales except Honda. Why? It is illegal if you are a Honda dealership under their franchise obligations to post invoice prices on their cars at the dealerships. It is obvious that Honda wants a less informed consumer, as there would be no other reason for this, other than to lead to more BLOATED pricing.

On a more personal note, a friend of mine died the other day in a side impact crash in his Honda Civic. His car did not have the side impact airbags that Honda charges for. Hyundai has side-impact airbags standard on every model, even the lowly Accent. If he had these airbags, they may have saved his life. I just think it is horrific that Honda charges you for safety. These may save your life, and doing this is like Honda making you buy your life from them. I know that Hyundai has officially announced that ALL new models (even lowly Accents) in the future will be fitted with side-impact airbags, side-curtain airbags, antilock brakes, traction control, and electronic stability control. If Hyundai is going to do this in inexpensive cars, why can't Honda do it?

mononeo · March 2005

All of you Honda people haven't thought about one interesting fact.

THIS IS A FORUM OF HYUNDAI ELANTRA VERSUS HONDA CIVIC.

Don't you think it says something that this is Hyundai versus Honda, not Nissan, or Toyota, or anyone else for that matter? I think that this says a lot in it of itself.

pat · March 2005

I'm not entirely certain of what point you are trying to make, but in case there is any confusion let me tell you that we pretty much let roll any comparo that interests anyone, no matter how unlikely a few of them might seem to be.

I am not saying this comparo is unlikely, I'm just pointing out that the only logical conclusion to be drawn from the subject matter of any given comparo is that one or more members are interested in making that particular comparison.

That's really all it says.

backy · March 2005

The interest in the discussion tells me that the Civic is considered a benchmark for small cars against which others are judged. Not too many people benchmark against a Neon or Cavalier. Also, it says that people are interested in this particular comparison. I know I am, since the '01 Civic EX was the car I compared most closely to the Elantra I bought in late 2000. And I might have bought one if I could have gotten it for $14,000. Instead, the dealer turned me off by 1) totally ignoring me when I was in the showroom, even in the middle of a weekday when no one else was in there, and 2) Sticking a ridiculous ADM price on the then-new Civic EX, putting its price close to $20,000. So I went down the street to the local Hyundai dealer, drove the then-new '01 Elantra GLS, fell in love with it, and had no problem getting a price $500 under invoice even when there were no rebates on the car. Then I watched as buyers of the '01 Civic complained about numerous problems with their cars on the Edmunds Civic discussions and the Civic was recalled three times, while I got great service from my Elantra. I liked it so much I bought a GT 5-door last year for my wife, to replace our minivan, and it has been a trouble-free car.

I still think the Civic is a very good small car. I just don't think they are worth the price premium any more. Maybe the upcoming redesign will change that, but who knows? And the Elantra is supposed to be redesigned for '06 also. Lots of new fodder for discussion here!

backy · March 2005

In post 1099 I implied that GM was behind the curve when it comes to VVT technology. It turns out GM originally developed the variable valve timing concept, with Fiat being the first automaker to put VVT into a production car.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_valve_timing

I wonder if Honda jumped on any patents from GM or Fiat? ;-)

lovetosavegas · March 2005

Good point, backy. I had similar experience shopping for a small car in 2002(EX vs GT). And I have to say that I thought that Elantra and Civic were quite similar. Dimension-vise, driving-vise (I drove AT cars), controls-vise. Honda was a little better. But not ~3000$ better. Plus GT had another plus being a hatchback, has leather. But different people have different priorities. I bet that a lot of people would easily pay 3K difference for Honda badge and subtle quality difference. I'd rather put it in my kids college fund(tax exempt) or numerous other things. So I personally think that one should be happy buying either of these cars - depending on the priorities. But saying that Elantra is a piece of junk compared to Civic is ignorant.

mononeo · March 2005

I don't think you understood what my point was in my mentioning that this is a forum of Elantra versus Civic.

While I do acknowledge that there is a free flow of communication regarding any comparisons of vehicles, I was putting emphasis on the fact that there has to be a reason that there is a forum like this at all. Yes, as patHOST mentioned, there is a lot of people that have interest in comparing these cars. That says a lot, right there.

Basically, it was placing the importance on the actual fact that the Elantra is arguably the Civic's prime competitor, not any other car. This is meant to give a realization to all of the people on this forum that act as though a Civic is uncomparable to the Elantra, as though it is in a class all it's own. Clearly, the sheer fact that this forum exists says that the Civic is not the clear choice in the economy car segment that many people think it is.

*
And can someone please respond to my resale value post? I'd like to see someone try and argue with facts.

gregoryc1 · March 2005

I would not purchase an "Elantra", (Hyundai) or a Kia vehicle, because they are sold by "multi-line new car dealers", (usually Chrysler Dealers). On the other side of the issue, Honda vehicles are sold and serviced by Honda dealers. It is not a "side business venture" like the Chrysler dealers. To me that shows a commitment to the product line! If you do a search about "Chrysler Vehicle problems" you will discover that Chrysler dealers cannot correct the problems with Chrysler vehicles, so where does that leave you as the owner of a Hyundai or Kia? Hyundai and Kia ARE NOT on the same "quality level" as Honda. They are a cheap imitation! But, it is a free country, and you can purchase anything that you like. It is your money.

mononeo · March 2005

Most car dealerships are multi-car dealerships. Where I live, Honda is a Honda/Acura/Chevrolet dealership. In contrast to where you live, Hyundai is an exclusively Hyundai dealership. It is also important to point out that most exotic cars are sold at multi-line dealerships. When is the last time you saw a sole Ferrari dealership? This says nothing about brand commitment.

In regards to your claim that you would not buy an Elantra, that is fine. Claiming that you wouldn't because they are "NOT on the same 'quality level' as Honda" is simply not true. In actuality, in the last J.D. Power & Associates Initial Quality Survey, Hyundai tied with Honda for having 102 problems per 1000 vehicles. This is a tie for second place, behind Toyota Motor (which is Lexus, Toyota, and Scion). If you take away Lexus and Scion from the Toyota brand equation, and look at it as an alone brand, it ranks behind both Honda and Hyundai.

I fail to understand your logic behind bringing up that Chrysler "cannot correct problems with Chrysler vehicles, so where does that leave you as the owner of a Hyundai or Kia?" First of all, this sentence does not make sense and the scope of its topicality is profusely incomprehensible. Chrysler can fix Chrysler vehicles. Hyundai and Kia are not part of the same vehicle lines. They are owned by the same parent corporation, but Kia Motors America and Hyundai Motor America are completely different companies. Additionally, Hyundai models are purposefully higher quality vehicles than Kia models in Hyundai's (the parent company in Korea) overall brand strategy. Also, all dealerships that sell new vehicles distributed by Hyundai Motor America or Kia Motors America are required by law and by dealer franchise contractual requirements and obligations to service these vehicles.

Another interesting fact; In the latest edition of Consumer Reports, the Hyundai Sonata was rated the Most Reliable Vehicle.

It would seem that Hyundai's quality is much more comprehensive than your argument's.

gregoryc1 · March 2005

Don't believe the Hyundai / Kia / Comsumer Reports / J.D. Power corporate "spin"! When YOU own the vehicle, all the "problems" are YOURS! Purchase the vehicle that YOU like. It is YOUR money. I personally believe that Hyundai and Kia are poor copies of Honda and Toyota, and as such, I would not purchase one of these vehicles. This is NOT a personal attack on YOU. It is simply MY OPINION!

pat · March 2005

Greg, in the interests of full disclosure you should note that you spend a whole lot of time criticizing Accords and criticizing Honda as a manufacturer.

Honda Civic vs. Hyundai Elantra

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