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Honda Civic vs. Hyundai Elantra

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  • elantra00elantra00 Posts: 225
    just the civic, which i feel is a very overpriced car that stupid people buy at sky high prices.

    i love the honda accord. i think that is a very reasonably priced car. for your money, you get a very reliable, quality automobile. my friend has a 99 ex and it is beautiful.

    now if honda would drop the price of the civic to around the elantra price, it would be worth considering, but when you go up to around $17,000 for an economy car, you can get a vw jetta for that price, or even an accord, which both are much nicer and solider. but when you have an "economy" car, it should be cheap, like under 14,000.
  • nikecarnikecar Posts: 460
    well the Civic LX autos are in the ads at under $14K. and once i saw them a shade under $13K. Brother in law got one out the door with extended warranty for $15K even. If anyone pays $17K for any of those cars, they haven't done their homework. Got my Altima loaded for $17K. The price is dependent on negotiation skills. those that don't have it, get stuck with the $17K. Even a little bit of homework can trim it down. i remember a lady in the Honda dealership 4 years ago when i was shopping. She wanted the Accord (don't know which) and the dealer told her $19K. All she kept saying was "no" or "i'm not paying that" and little by little he was down to $16K in less than 5 minutes after conversations with the manager. don't know if she got it or not, but That lady was slick. all she said were those comments. that's good. wish i got her number to get my next car.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 19,897
    Well, there must be a whole lot of "stupid" people out there given the number of Civic sales!

    And these same people are happy when they trade it in later and find out how much it's still worth!

    Try that with a Korean car! :)
  • elantra00elantra00 Posts: 225
    i plan to keep my elantra till its dead. its got a great warranty on it, so its worth keeping for at least 10 years. and it was cheap enough, so when i am through with college, i can go out and finance a BMW 323ci. a civic is nice too, but an elantra has so much more to offer at a much cheaper value faster too. (Exception of SI trim)
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 19,897
    Sounds like it works for you and that's what's important. Remember, your 10 year warranty does not cover everything!

    Myself, I would have taken those same dollars and bought something with a proven reputation.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 19,897
    A used car, that is. Not necessarily a Honda either. I just think there are better choices, but that's only my opinion!
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 19,897
    Since you changed your username.

    You continue to spew your nonsense under a different name.

    Newsflash: Race car engines are routinely rebuilt after every race! No big deal.

    You'll have a tough time convincing anybody that Honda builds bad engines. Even the Hyundai lovers here will agree to that.

    And, I never said they were crap so please don't put words in my mouth.

    A typical posting from Afficando or Genes or whatever you are calling yourself these days...
  • nikecarnikecar Posts: 460
    my 92 Chevy Cavalier had a distributorless ignition too. No big deal.

    Considering the lack of all around resources Korea has, they better be top at 1 or 2 items. Look at Saudi Arabia...#1 in oil production but nothing else. If your good at something, stick to it. The US has more resources all around to make up for not being #1 at something.

    And when I lived in Germany, I NEVER saw a Hyundai or a Kia or a Daewoo on the streets. They are popular in Africa an Latin America because smaller cars are needed more there due to smaller roads and more congestion. A smaller car can go where a Lincoln can't. Doesn't mean they are better. Just more needed.
  • hello26hello26 Posts: 62
    Honda engines are at the top of the entire automobile industry for technology, efficiency, and cleanliness.

    1. Honda Accord is the one with problems (see
    Accord topic.
    2. Civics start at $10,000.
    3. People who buy Civics are not stupid.

    Finally, people were lining up around the block to buy Civics in 1973 during the oil crisis. They only imported one other car before this. It was bought by approximately 10 people. Honda has never been known as junk.

    You're making yourself and your car look stupid by your criticisms of Honda and your insults of Civic buyers. The post that said I would have bought something else if I had the money was intelligent, honest, and to the point.
  • distributorless ignition is not a technical feat and nor are hydraulic lifters...

    then why isn't honda doin' it??? do they want to suck more money out of the owner's pockets???

    those things are one less item that one has to pay their hard earned money to the dealer for maintenance...

    valve adjustments every 30,000 miles??? c'mon... for some people that drive a lot that's less than a year... and they start ticking when a valve adjustment is not done in a timely manner... and that's extra one has to pay the dealer for maintenance... and do the civic need periodic valve adjustments???? yes they do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    ditto for the distributor... new distribuotr wires and with di. cap and rotor and distributor itself is needed periodally.. more money one has to shell out for maintenance...

    people buy hondas thinking it is economical to ownnn... the service costs are way way up there.... really call some honda dealerships and ask how much it is for a 30k service on a civic!!!

    you might be surprised...

    there still are numerous instances of honda distributors that fail around 75k miles or earlier!!! read the posts in the maintenance froum 720 and 903!!! posted above in post #159!!!!!!!!!

    it's the owners of accords that are complaining, not me!!!!!

    and isellhondars, often times those honda indy(champ) race car engines don't last a few hundred miles...

    and they get rebuilt after every race...

    yes honda does build high rev engines to get horsepower due to the motorcycle company they are...

    to get power out of limited engine size the engine has to be rev to very high stress levels...

    that's the way it goes ... you either increase the displacement or rev. the thing into redline territory... to get more power...

    of course there's forced induction but that a whole new story...

    the horsepowerband of the usual honda engines are very similar if not lower than its counterparts up to the redline of the competitors...

    but the honda engines is revved beyond other engines redlines to get that horsepower the the redline level... the problem is, most people drive 75% in stop 'n go driving and 15 freeway so the high revs necessary for power aren't well utilized...

    if you look at the honda line of cars their torque figures especially for the perf. oriented vtec engines have less torque than counterparts engines of the same size!!!!! it's just that the honda engines rev very high to get horsepwoer but with no torque...

    the high revs are torture to an engine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    a leading car magazine tested the honda s2000 and shifted the car at 5500 rpm's and the s2000 took over 11 seconds to get to 60 mph!!!!!!!!!

    as the magazine put it so well... you have to drive the s2000 like you stole it.

    yep the honda indy(champ)engines get rebuilt after every race.... why????????????????????????

    because the internals are already out of spec. and tolerances!!!!!!!! and worn beyond usefulness....

    and the honda indy(champ)car engines still often times fail in a few hundred miles or less!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! midway thru a race...why????????????????????????????????

    high revs takes its toll on the metal no matter what the metallury and construction. it is metal fatigue... and it affects all engines especially revving engines ...

    look at the ferrari for example...

    in july's issue of road and track, there is a tech session where readers send in letters to the editor...

    there is a guy who is scouring the market for a used ferrari f355.

    he says several of the f355 he's look at failed leakdown tests with two separate vehicles showing a 18 percent loss in the cylinders and other cylinders mostly exhibiting a 10-12% loss.

    he went on to say the compression was a meager 135-145 psi!!!!!!

    that's is lower than many other family sedan engines!!!!!

    the conclusion is that for the engines to rev high, there has to be tradeoff.. like the engine being loose... especially when cold... the rings and pistons have to expand...

    otherwise there could be piston knock until the engine is warmed up...

    i could see some buying a car for its brand for a company like mercedes( a flagship model)... they've been building car for a very long time... even then those cars are not known to be without it share of problems....

    but a honda??? that's stated out as a motorcycle company and still is....( i'll take the heat for this statement)

    they build high rev. engines with little torque and have a variable valve timing system called vtec....

    btw, a lot of people don't have a clue as to what it is....

    let me explain in layman's terms...

    the traditional valve setup usually can be geared towards a low rpm situation or a high rpm situation... meaning the cams can actuate the valve so that the valve open shallow( not even gas or air allowed in)

    or very wide... thus allowing for more gas and air to enter, but that wouldn't make for a very smmooth running engine, especially at idle...

    so honda devised a way to alter the valve actuation from a shallow to wider opening mode via hydraulically controlled cams and timing...

    however, the modern car has both intake and exhaust valves and both have to be actuated for maximum effect...

    the reality is on most hondas only the exhaust valves are actuated for better fuel economy... like the civic ex vtec... very very few people would be able to feel the vtec kicking in because only the exhaust valves are being altered and over 4500 rpm!!! one magazine called that the econmy oriented vtec...

    then there's the vtec where both the intake and exhaust valves are actuated... even still the kick-in of the vtec would be very very difficult to detect...

    and that occurs only after like 5800 rpms or so like on the civic si or over 7000 rpm's or so on the s2000. and the differnece in millimters of actuation difference is just that millimeters!!!!!!

    at those rpm's the engine is being tortured!!!!!!

    and the engines will fail as some people have experienced in the honda problem forum in maintenance topic #720 and #903.

    and there's not much torque due to the fact that torque is horsepower divided by the engine rpm's...

    i forgot the formula for converting hp to torque and vice versa but the are the inverse of the other with the engine rpm's......

    and the higher rpm's the horsepower is developed, the less torque there is....

    and we amereicans, as i reiterate, do most of our driving in stop 'n' go situations.... even on the freeways!!! we need torque not horsepower... (although we'd like to have both)

    for racing, hp is good... but for the real everyday driving environment???? torque is the more preferred...

    many other manufacturers have similar systems that are infinitely variable and not just a limited stage( one currently) like honda's...

    in germany there are a new crop of diesel cars that are coming out...

    bmw has just introduced a 740 diesel model...the diesel engine s inherently have hiogh torque because the power is produced at lower rpm's..

    and even merc benz an vw are coming out with diesels in their biggest bodied cars... of course the diesels get good fuel economy but they have lot of torque!!! they are popular in germany.
    i can see why the the germans haven't given up on the diesel...

    and nikecar i don't know when you were in germany but have you been there recently??? one of my friend's family in germany just bought a hyundai sonata there!!! they like it a lot!!!!

    have you been to england or greece?? hyundais and daewoo are all over the streets there too...

    and korea does have on prized resourse that is priceless....


    human resourses!!!!!!!!!!!!

    koreans are one of the hardest working people in the world and they still have a six day( well 5 1/2) workweek. even china doesn't have that!!!

    the highly skilled and trained people of korea no doubt helped rebuild that country from ashes...to one of the world's economic industrial powers today...

    I respect that...

    remember we fought a war on their side...

    korea is the no.5 car producing nation in the world.

    the biggest shipbuilding yard in the world is in okpo, korea.

    the single biggest steel company is in korea and is called posco (pohang steel) and is listed on the nyse.

    electronics is another strength of korea...

    KOREA IS IN.

    end.
  • liufeiliufei Posts: 201
    afficionado1/Gene555:
    Well Korea or rather S.Korea makes a lot of progress but they also got hit hard by the Economic crisis. Most of the conglomerate in S.Korea is facing financial krisis either to poor management (overagressive management, debt accumulation,etc) or simply loss of sale.market position.

    And last time I check, Hyundai are the only remaining auto-maker that still owned mostly by Korean company. Daewoo is going to get bought by Either GM or Ford, Samsung Motor got bought by Renault ? (if i remember it correctly).

    If you talked about resources, there are countries in this world that still work in a 6 days workweek as well, mostly are asian or latin nation (dunno bout African countries). And isnt that bad for the workers ? The company is squeezing everything they can from them.
    Regarding human resources, I doubt korean workers are any different. They goes on strikes many times too, especially now since the economy there going south, and most of the company is being bought by foreign entity. If they are really good-hard-working ppl, it should not matter to whom the company is being sold as long as its gonna help them to become a better company. (then again, I just hate ppl that goes on strike, if they afraid to loose their job, they should try harder to keep the job! there are many other ppl that will love to get their job!). I do have the feeling that Koreans simply doesnt want any foreign company to buy any korean company.
    Also, Japan rise from the same ashes that Koreas where in, and they become a major player much sooner than Korea, so does that mean Japanese ppl are much better worker than Korean ppl? I dont think so....

    Regarding N.Korea.....well...they still lived in their own world, lets leave it as it is. It sure troubles me regarding the reports of thousands of North Koreans died because of lack food, last winter...

    IsellHonda:
    I dont doubt that Honda's engine are one heck of a nice engine. Even Toyota's has sludge issue in it, while I never heard bout anything major regarding Honda's engine. Transmission on the other hand....hehe
    Still, dont you think Civic are especially overpriced?? You can get a midsize car (626,Altima,Galant,Sonata) for the price of a Civic EX, with similar features!
    Regarding value vs price, i think vince8 spew this long time back, what good is a high resale value, if you loose the same amount of money upfront when you buy the car? Very valid point imho.
    Reliability wise, I still think Honda is definitely got the number of Hyundai or other Korean Cars. We'll see a few years from now if thats gonna change.

    p.s: Any insight on the new Civic?
  • nikecarnikecar Posts: 460
    Munich is where i lived and have been there in the last 10 yrs. If i lived in Germany again, i sure as heck would NOT buy a Hyundai there. I'd rather get a decently priced BMW used than a new Sonata. The entire driving experience for a BMW is much more than a Sonata or Elantra. You cannot say a Hyundai will beat a BMW ina anything other than price.

    And also, and just because a car has a distributor in it, doesn't meanthey're behind the times. At least they have the electric/gas hybrid. hell, let's know the diesel engines for a higher pollution rate too.

    But c'mon..the best thing the Hyundai has going for it is its price. i wonder where the rating of the car would be if it was in line pricewise with the Civic. that's the main thing the Hyundai has going for it..the price. i bet, providing the reliability holds up, that car will edge closer and closer to the Civic.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 19,897
    Genes555/ aficanado should just move to Korea and be happy forevermore.

    And, the issue of Accord transmission problems is the most distorted, overblown bunch of rubbish I have ever heard of! Talk about pouncing on a minor issue that was quickly corrected!

    Yeah, and the high revs must really hurt Honda engines...that must be why I soo so many with 250,000 and more miles running just fine...
  • jxcarjxcar Posts: 8
    Talking about reliability, it amazes me to see all people talked about is "reputation". Like, "how many xxxx cars I saw dead on the road", "A friend of mine has a xxx car and he had NO(or LOTS OF) trouble", etc. Does anybody have unbiased, hard evidence on whether a car is really good or bad, statistically?
    Once I went by the MSN Carpoint's Reliability Ratings site, and was amazed by what I saw. If you haven't seen it yet, better check it out:

    http://carpoint.msn.com//reliability_ratings.asp

    Check out their ratings on Elantra, Civic and Corolla, you'll be surprised.
    My question is, what do you believe now, the stats or still what you HEARD of?
    Also, what made it so different? Any psychological analysis?
  • liufeiliufei Posts: 201
    IsellHonda:
    Heh, breath in, breath out....breath in, breath out..
    Now you have to admit that the Accord transmission problem DO exist, albeit affecting only limited # of V6. Honda even issue a technical bulletin or whatever on the issue. And yes, they're doing their best to fix it which what you would expect from Honda.
    Now you going to answer my civic question? regarding them being overpriced beyond their class?


    jxcar:
    Even the so-called fact itself is subjective, just the same with people opinion.
    Carpoint is just one of the sites that gives you idea on reliability. And from what I can gather, they based their information from the number of calls AIS got. This itself is questionable, because they assumed infrequent calls meaning good, while the stats point out that the number of Civic and Corolla sold greatly eclipse the number of Elantra sold during the same period of time. So of course Elantra won't get many service call, there are not many of them out there to begin with.
    The reliability rating also is subjective. For one, I really think a problem with the timing belt is more serious than problem with the distributor (we talking about engine damage here!), yet Carpoint rate it as a mere medium, while the distributor is severe. (btw, wtheck is MAP sensor anyway?)
    Personally, I listen to the "tales" of family,friends and acquaintances as well as from informative site like carpoint,edmund,consumer report, etc. From there and from experience, oneself should be able to draw the conclusion.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Issaquah WashingtonPosts: 19,897
    No, I don't think Civics are overpriced at all. Sure, you can buy cars that may be larger, or perhaps have a bit more equipment for the same price or less, but so what?

    Altimas are being sold at distressed prices now that Nissan is struggling. Too bad, I think, Datsun/Nissan had the market by the tail and let it go! Used Altimas bring quite a bit less than book at auctions. I do think they can be a good buy,more so when a year or two old.

    Same thing with Mazda, although they seem to have slipped since Ford got involved, a 626 is not a bad car.

    For years, Civics have enjoyed bulletproof reliability and great resale. That's not being overpriced at least in my book.
  • jxcarjxcar Posts: 8
    some clarifications:
    First, I don't think they just add up the numbers of service calls for each model of cars and compare them as "rating". I don't think anyone would do something that ridiculous. Though it's not clearly stated (they do say "frequency"), I suppose that they use #problems/total#of cars as the ratings for each model. Doubt about it? Go check their ratings on Porsche 911 and Ford Escort, for example, and look at the category for transmission. You really believe that they got more service calls on Porsches than on Escorts? :)

    For your second question, you can find the answer in the FAQ there. Well, I'll just copy it here:

    "A Green Indicator—means the system has had a low frequency of reported problems, and that the cost to repair those problems is also low.
    A Yellow Indicator—means either that the system has had a low frequency of reported problems but that the cost to repair those problems is high OR that the system has had a moderate frequency of reported problems and that the cost to repair the problems is low.
    A Red Indicator—means either that the system has had a high frequency of reported problems regardless of repair costs OR that the system has had a moderate frequency of reported problems and that the cost to repair the problems is high. "

    I think most people would agree that's a reasonable indication. So even though a problem with timing belt is far more serious then a problem with distributor, if it occurs once in a million cars, it's not going to rated as "significant".

    And that is the difference between "stats" and "reputation", you have a much larger database with "stats", and it's not biased because they don't own any car and are not trying to sell any car. Reputation and stats would match each other in most cases, but not all the cases.
  • nikecarnikecar Posts: 460
    as a statistician, stats can get bent this way and that way to prove a point. Look at this last study that was conducted on STD transmission rates increasing around college campuses when cheap beer prices were lowered. Now I don't see how you can correlate that but its an example of how you can make it work for you. Everyone does it with statistics.

    If it was a number of calls per XXX number of cars sold, then yeah. that's better than just the total number of calls.
  • hello26hello26 Posts: 62
    That's all good but tell me one thing hyundai has done for small car engineering? One single thing.
    A 120 hp engine ( or whatever) , a little more torque from X-Y? I guess when your Civic is at 80,000 with $0.00 warranty claims and $0.00 unexpected maint. you will know what is truth and what is bs. Your Hyundai is fine but it's not a Civic. Get over it.
  • when the japanese came to america in 1990( yes only 10 years ago) with their lexus and infiniti luxury v8's,

    the germans who has the luxury segment to themselves up to that time were put under pressure...

    bmw had to come out with their first v8 in 43 years...

    ditto for the british... jaguar had to recently come up with their first v8 in history...

    the british had always been copying the germans in design and engineering... look at the jags of 50 tears ago and the jags of today and you will find the definite resemblance of the jags to the german mb and bmw...

    in todays( well yesterday's now) june.15, 2000 issue section A23, the wsj talks about how the japan lost the no. 1 spot in shipbuilding last year to korea...

    and korea is likely to hold on to the no. 1 spot in the foreseeable future...

    new shipbuilding orders for japanese shipbuilders last year totaled 9.7 million gross tons, down 9.2 % from a year earlier,

    while those by korean shipbuilders hit 12.7 million tons, up 27%...

    "it is widely known here that it has become difficult for some japanese shipbuilders to compete effectively because the japanese companies' cost structures are higher and scale of output lower."

    the cost structure!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    it is also widely known that japan's layer after layer of distribution channnels contribute to the high cost of doing business in japan...

    i mean why does a cup of coffee have to cost over $10 in japan??????????????????????????????????

    could it be because of the extremely high rent???

    could it be because of the layer after layer of inefficient distribution channels that contineues to keep japan's econoy in a stagnant state and even depression???

    or could it be that the japanese coffee is more reliable??? and has an added secret ingredient???

    why should a cup o' good old cofee have to cost $10???

    the reality is, that what many japanese consumers have to face everyday...

    a 1300 sq. ft condo in tokyo cost $$$2.5 million in japan...

    the cost structure is just to high for some japanese companies to compete like the wsj
    says...

    businessweek and l.a. times the did a recent article where they talked about the improved queality of the korean cars and how it helped hyundai overtake mazda as the no. 5 asian brand of cars sold in the u.s.

    toyo, honda, niss, mitsu and hyundai...

    and analysts predict that hyundai will overtake mitsu for the no. 4 spot soon...

    so there... the high cost structure and very high labour wages of japanese companies is a major reason that the honda civcs are over-priced and under-equipped....

    do the owners of civics and hondas think that they are driving a formula 1 car????? or something???

    those racing engines don't last a few hundred miles and they have to get rebulit after every race... so do you still think you are getting a formula one car???

    get over it... it's a dinky little under-powered and under-equipped 4 banger with no guts...

    btw fyi honda sells on average a little over 30,000 civics a month

    and hyundai sells a little over 10,000 elantras a month here in the u.s.

    it's time for the koreans to put some pressure on the japanese...

    so we americans don't have to pay $10 for a cup o' coffee...

    do you wanna pay $10 for a cup o' coffee????
    that's probably not even colombian?????...

    and btw luifei korea has since rebounded quite nicely found the econ. crises three years ago posting around 10% growth in recent years... last year it was more than 10% this years the world bank is predicting around 8.6%...

    all the major indicators including inflation, real estate figures, unemployment growth, are on par if not better than before the crisis... and it has helped to weed out the financially weaker companies...

    it has actually helped strengthen the economy...

    as for daewoo, they were in a massive expansion that included factoreis in china, poland, india, romania, uzbekistan, vietnam, etc... then the crises of 3 years ago sent the currney falling so daewoo was put in a cash crunch...

    even daewooo is very popular around the world today...

    no.1 in peru, no.1 or 2 in poland the largest market in eastern europe... they outbid gm for the biggest factory there...

    a lot of companies have sold some stake in the companies but it was most on a partial basis...

    and financial reasons were the main reason...

    as one british contractor put it, the british and korean companies can create a synergy effect by utilizing british marketing with korea's excellent construction expertise and prowess...

    hey many huge project were done by korean companies including the petro twin tower building in malaysia and the great water canal in the middle east... called by many as the eighth wonder of the world...

    and the summit meeting between north and south korea has gone beyond everybody's expectations with both sides aggreeing to work towards a peaceful reunification... and exchange visits in the future...

    already they have contributed to world peace and stability in asia...

    let's hope they bring us some upmarket cars soon...
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