Honda Civic vs. Hyundai Elantra

kymcamp · January 2001

Okay, I'm trying this again. This stupid board keeps not posting my message.

Well, if everyone is finished criticizing Justin's spending habits and debating whether Accords are used as taxi cabs, let's get back to discussing small cars.

Yesterday was the first in a two day test drive marathon that I did, with my father and various sales people as passengers.

Car #1) 2001 Nissan Sentra XE, automatic transmission. MSRP $17,398 ($Canadian)

Well equipped and comfortable seats, though my dad complained they were a bit narrow. The trunk is cavernous, and the controls well thought out. Howver, the light gray instruments with white lettering were difficult to see in bright sunlight. Legroom for rear seat passengers was next to nonexistant, and overall this car was cramped compared to the other two below. The engine was a little noisy (they didn't have an SE on the lot, which was what I was looking for). The brakes were really, really touchy making it hard to modulate a slight decrease in speed. The ride was suprisingly rough, I kept looking down wondering if the parking break was on. Aside from the engine noise, the cabin was very quiet. Adjusting the seats up and down was easy enough, but tiliting the wheel was an akward procedure. Nissan Canada does not offer a new grad rebate (which I am).

Car #2) 2001 Volkswagon Golf GL 5-speed manual $19040 ($Canadian)

Interior room best described as "cavernous". Even with the seat all the way back, my dad could sit behind quite comfortably with plenty of legroom. The flipping front seat allowed very easy access to the back in the two door model tested. The car feels as solid as a tank, and because of its weight it handled well in the brief snowfall we had during the testdrive. The keyfob with folding key is cool, and the electronically encoded keys with the standard security system and engine immobilizer make the Golf practically impregnanble to car thiefs. The downside to the electronic keys is they can't be duplicated except by the dealer and each key costs well over $200 to replace. Combined with the Fort Knox like security means whoe to those who lock their keys in or lose them. Seats are firm, but very comfortable. On the freeway I sort of wished for a sixth gear, it revs rather high at those speeds. Also, the clutch has to be pushed so far back a sixfooter has to stretch. The shifter is smooth, but its short which requires getting used to. Also, the location of reverse is rather bizzare (where 1st gear should be), but the shifter actually has to be pushed down before it will go into reverse to prevent accidentally going backwards from a stoplight. Acres of glass provide enourmous visibility, and deploying the hidden cupholder is kinda neat. This car was definitely the most luxurious of the three (an 8(!) speaker stereo is standard on the base model). Good thing that stereo is standard, because you'll need it to drown out the engine and surprising amount of exterior noise. The Golf is also a stern mistress, we started to run low on windshield wiper fluid and it let is know in a loud and authoritive tone. The 2 year bumper-to-bumper warranty is shorter than the other two, but it includes free maintenance. The 12(!) year anti-rust warranty shows how long VW thinks these cars will last.

Car #3) 2001 Honda Civic sedan DX $17 300 ($Canadian)

Well, actually I wanted to try the coupe. However, the saleslady couldn't find the coupe that matched the first key she grabbed, the second coupe she tried was still plastic wrapped. I started it only to find it had no gas. So we gave up and tried the sedan, since it would drive about the same. She took us over to a car that had "test drive car" painted on it along with the dealership's website address. The Civic was far more spacious than the Sentra, but far less spacious than the Golf. Seat comfort was resonable, but lower back support was a bit lacking. The instrument display was clean and efficient, and that shifter! I don't think I've ever driven a car that shifted more smoothly. Pickup and visibility are resonable, the suspension smoothed out the bumps admirably, and cabin noise was minimal. Rearward visibility is another thing though, backing into a parking space was hard, I almost felt blind. In driving feel the Golf feels bigger and heavier than it is, wheras the Civic feels airy and nimble just like an around the town car should feel like. It's comfort on long trips seems suspect though. Still, I can see why this car will probably again be a #1 seller. The car feels very solid, but not as solid as the Golf. I must admit I liked it a lot, it seems a friendly sort of car. I didn't like the previous generation at all though.

Today I head off to Ford, Hyundai, Kia, GM, and Mazda. I'll let you know how I fare. I did a short test drive of an Elantra before, but the car was still plastic wrapped and I didn't drive anything else that day to compare it too. Now that I'll have test tried them all at the same time I should have a better feel for how they all compare.

kevperro1 · January 2001

I've been test driving and comparing all the Compact Sedans. I'll try to relate my findings.
Prices based upon cars direct price (includes delivery price, options and rebates). All models tested where the 5 speed manual transmission.

Nissan 01 centre GXE $13,293.00

Only options picked where the floor mats. Comes standard with DC player, air, and power everything (doors, windows). I liked the instrument layout and the shifter worked nicely. Engine has plenty of low ram torque and shifting was not always necessary for passing. Build quality looked...Ok.. engine compartment not as pretty as some of the competition. Apperance was the weak point for the Nissan. Exterior is boring and interior was just ok looking for fit and finish. No arm-rest for the driver is a big negative for me because of freq long highway drives. Very small interior but seemed quite on short test drive. Back seat is the most cramped in leg room of all vehicles compared. Final verdict: I like the engine drive-train but not the rest of the car. Good gas milage (35 Highway) and the price is attractive.

Corolla 01 S $13,669.00

Very nice engine & gear shift operation. Best of the bunch. Awesome milage (41 HW). Interior design is pethetic compared to the competition. Little back seat room and the fit and finish was not the best (contrary to what the Automotive press says). Everything seemed cheaper, lighter gauge metal, cheap plastics and the design just was not as seemless as others. Noise level acceptable but suspension was mushy. Looks exterior Ok... interior worst of the bunch.
Final verdict: I wish I could take the engine drive-train and leave the rest of the car.

Mazda Protege ES 2000 $13,489

Nice looking car. Sharp wheels and probably the best looking of all the compact cars (subjective). Liked the interior layout and drive position. The specs say it has a lot of room but it felt like one of the smaller cars (subjective). Gas milage is the worst of the bunch and insurance cost also. Test drive: Tight suspension. Can tell that they are going for more of the small sports car feel. Feel and hear more road noise than others. Good shifter feel and acceleration. Final verdict: I liked this car but not enough to buy it. It is the most expensive of the bunch (intial cost, insurance, gas milage). Ride is more aimed at sporty rather than comfort.

Elantra 01 $12,174.00

I was really surprised that I liked this car. Exterior looks are very nice (subjective) and the interior is excellent. Plenty of room, largest of the bunch based upon my perception. Roomy back-seat and the driving position is very nice. Great dash layout..very stylish. Looks like a much more expensive car. Build quality looks very tight and attention to detail is evident. Look under the hood ..very clean. Trunk is smallish but very nicely finished and the interior really looks well integrated. If I didn't know the brand name or price, I would have guessed that this was the most expensive car of the bunch. Drive was quite and suspension seemed to have the best balance of comfort vs performance for my driving habits. Engine has enough power but doesn't feel like the most powerful of the bunch. I would rather have low end torque than high end horsepower. Max HP is at something like 6000RPM (which I'll never see) and max torque at 4800RPM (which I rarely see). Also doesn't have the best gas milage (33 HW) but not the worst. As far as driving pleasure I would like to replace the drivetrain of this car with the Toyota and then you would have the perfect car. But, to the Elantra's credit, the engine drive train is by no means bad. Just average among the competition. The interior ergonomics make up for it. Final Verdict: Wrap it up. Least expensive by a good margin. Best warranty of the bunch by a good margin. My favorite car to spend time inside (important to me)of and great looks. The Hyundai reputation is the only weak point and I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt based upon the warranty and the break in price.

sobers · January 2001

Eeven though I don't like the fact that CR also tests Cars it is worth repoting what they said about 4 car comparisions.(Updated for 2001)

Honda Civic, Corolla, Elantra, Cavalier,
They rated Civic 1st, Elantra 2nd, Corolla & then Cavalier. There observation was that Civic is there top pic as FOcus is a reliability nightmare.

Elantra was rated better than Corolla but Fuel Economy & braking found not very satisfactory.
They also said that it was virtually impossible to get Elantra with ABS & Traction Control.
Civic & Elantra were recorded same timing for 0-60
Civic: 60-0 was 134, Elantra: 139
Civic CR observed mpg: 22-41; Elantra : 16-34
that is city/highway.

They could not comment on the reliability as ELantar was all-new for 2001.

Ergonamics: Civic & Elantra scored same though Civic was given slight edge for quality of switchgears & better linear response.

Currently I have subscriptions to:
Consumer Reports
CarnDriver
MotorTrend
Automobile
AutoWeek
AutoWorldWeekly

Isn't it funny for a computer professional(programmer)

hkchan · January 2001

"The Civic was far more spacious than the Sentra, but far less spacious than the Golf. "
I must say I'm puzzled. I agree with the first but not the second. I drive a '99 Civic 4-Dr. I also test-drove a '01 Golf 4-DR and a '01Sentra recently. First of all, I'm 5'-5". In every case, the driver's seat is adjusted to my liking. I then drove the car to make sure the position is correct for me. I then get into the back seat. I can only comment on the leg/knee room. The Sentra and the Golf were equally tight. I had about an inch of knee room left. In my Civic, there was about 1.5" more knee room than in the other two.

I also have the following numbers from the EPA. These of course should only be used as a guide. The most important thing is how it feels to you. The '99 Civic 4-Dr has 90 cu.ft. of interior room, 91 cu. ft. for the '01, 88 cu. ft. for both the the Golf and Sentra.

On the rear leg room: 34.1 in. for the '99 Civic, 36.0 in. for the '01 Civic, 33.7 in. for the Sentra and 33.5 in. for the Golf.

sobers · January 2001

I forgot RoadnTrack to mention
Congrats CymCamp on ur decisin to go with Elantra.
Everybody has different needs that is why we have so many choices here in us of a

kymcamp · January 2001

About the Golf spaciousness thing, I only sat in the driver's seat. It seemed far more spacious than the Civic. I didn't sit in the back, but my dad did so I relayed his opinion on it.

Mazda Protégé LX Touring Edition $21300 (Canadian)

This is the top of the line Protégé, with every available option. The car appeared small inside, but once inside it was quite spacious. It felt every bit as solid as the Golf, yet as nimble as the Civic. All I can say is that I really, really want it. It was as quiet as the Civic, but hard a very firm Euro feel. The car was black, and had the upgraded interior. The eight way adjustable seat was extremely comfortable, and even with the sunroof I had ample headroom (and I'm 6'). For some reason, the seat seems to slide farther back than the SE in the showroom. I can't find any faults to this car, except price. But it felt like it was worth every penny.

Hyundai Elantra VE $19000 Canadian (as tested)
This was the top of the line Elantra with several additional dealer options added such as (fake) wood trim, Ziebart tinted windows, a rather cool looking spoiler, mudflaps etc. Without the extras the car costs $17300. The seats are firm, but very comfortable. It had a nice, tight Euro feel, but not quite as much as the Mazda. The trunk was about midpack. Like kevperro1, the 140 hp engine didn't seem more powerful than the others, but it was very smooth and quiet. (much more than the Nissan and VW). The Hyundai feels like a big car inside, but I don't care much for the biege trim on the test car. I don't think I'd pay for the plastic wood either. Still this felt like a very solid car, and my father liked it despite wondering about how it would hold up in the long run (that old Excel we had is still remembered). Fit and finish were fine, but rather plain. I'd describe it as function over form. The Hyundai dealer has been selling Elantra's at a break-neck pace, but still the wait would only be about 2 weeks. ABS, traction control and the sunroof aren't available on the Canadian version, but at least we get a much better Clarion stereo compared to the cheapo stock stereo the American GLS gets.

Pontiac Sunfire $18475 Canadian (as tested)

We test drove a base red Sunfire w/air. Seating is comfy, the stereo sounds great, sporty looks, Gertrag transmission, well equipped it could have been tops. However the engine is incredibly noisy, twice as bad as the Golf. Of course, the car had only 100 km on it, so after breaking it in the car calms down a bit. The engine is still noisy though in my neighbor's Sunfire. The car is surprisingly roomy despite its sleek appearance, but the trunk is downright tiny. If only the engine wasn't so rough, it would be an excellent car. The low, low finincing is very tempting though.

Didn't get to Ford, Kia, or Chrysler yet. That'll be Monday or Tuesday.

Overall I'd rank the cars as follows

1) Mazda
2) Volkswagon
3) Hyundai
4) Pontiac
5) Honda
6) Nissan

Don't be fooled by Honda's low standings. It's an excellent car. It just feels like a commuter car or runabout though, and I'm looking for something more. Other people with other requirements would rank things differently.

Oh, and by the way the Golf is actually a Jetta in disguise. They are identical mechanically and even interiorwise right down to the dashboard. The Jetta's six inches longer though.

--Kyle

kymcamp · January 2001

Sorry about all the spelling mistakes, should have read it over first.

hkchan · January 2001

My conclusion is that if your dad is 6' tall like you, It's almost impossible for him to sit behind you in the Golf or Sentra (or Corolla).
On the Protege, what did you mean by "...., but hard a very firm Euro feel". Can I assume it's the 2000 model, not the 2001 that's coming out as we speak?

Edit: Never mind. I think you meant to say "...., but had a very firm Euro feel".

kymcamp · January 2001

That's right, "had a firm Euro feel".

My dad's only 5' 7". He says he couldn't even move his legs in the Sentra, but was comfortable enough in the Golf. I couldn't fit in the Sentra's back seat, I could in the Golf but the seat wasn't very far back. However, since I'm only one person I don't care all that much about the back seat. But I found even the front seat in the Sentra small, making it hard to find a comfortable driving position. In the Mazda I sat both back and front, and found it fine even with the seat all the way back. The Hyundai and Honda about as comfortable in the back, but there seemed to be less headroom in the back of the Hyundai (but lots in the front). I didn't even attempt to sit in the back of the Sunfire coupe, it's definitely for small kids or pets only.

kymcamp · January 2001

Yes it was a 2000 model. The 2001 gets a slightly revised front end and a bigger 2.0 L engine, but the dealer said they weren't in yet (and they only had two 2000's on the lot). Other than that it's pretty much the same car (but prices went up a few hundred dollars).

j1j2j3 · January 2001

You know, I think we should compare same price points.

Is a Civic better that a Sonata in any way?
They cost about the same practically.

The Sonata is bigger , has more power, more features... everything is better.

Ha

kevperro1 · January 2001

Ford Focus 01 Sedan $13,291

I don't like the looks. Roomy inside but very funky looking. The stereo is the best I've heard in the compact class. I drove the base level engine with 5-speed. It drove...ok but nothing that really touched me. Overall, I don't like the style and I've had bad experiences with Ford in the past. I'm willing to give the Elantra a break on reputation due to the warranty but the Ford doesn't have that going for it.

On the Protege, did you know that there is $1500 rebate on the 2000 models? Trying to make room for the 2001 and I don't think dealers want to be stuck with them. Slowing economy... can anyone say buyer's market?

elantra00 · January 2001

The elantra has the best stock system by far of any compacts Ive seen. Im talking about the upgraded stereo with CD w/ separate tweeters and midbass. Compared to the civic or corollas stereo, the elantra's is much clearer and you can really crank it up without distortion. It was so good, I just wired my 600 watt kenwood amp and 10" Pioneer sub right to the stock head unit. It sounds great! Of course, cars like the VW Jetta has a better stereo as you go up in to the 20,000 price range. 8 speaker system in that car is sweet.

kymcamp...as a proud owner of a Hyundai Elantra, if you have the money, I would go for the golf. If I had around 18k to spend, thats what I would have gotten. Beautiful styling inside and out. excellent stereo...got to love the blue backlit displays. Solid as a rock, nimble handling. If you haggle, you might be able to get that car with the 1.8 turbo in your price range. For that, I rather have a golf then a civic EX. The civic is too boring and dull w/ a overpriced hefty price tag. The germans build the best cars hands down!

That would be my choice. Thats my next car

kymcamp · January 2001

To think some people believe that small cars must be inferior. I really wonder about the SUV set (sorry Justin) riding around in there massive vehicles that are trying to be "car-like" while drinking enough gas to make Barney Gumble a model of moderation.

It's hard to choose one of my top three. The Mazda was incredibly fun to drive, the Golf oozed style and the Elantra was so smooth. Really, the Hyundai's engine was only beaten in terms of quiteness and silkiness by the Honda. I mentioned that I'm trying Ford, Chrysler and Kia next but I doubt any of them will bump one of the top three. I wish I could buy all three cars.

kymcamp · January 2001

that should be "quietness and silkiness by the Honda".

backy · January 2001

just arrived, must take longer to make its way to the Frozen Tundra. The Elantra review was notable I think because it's the first glowing review CR has ever had on a Hyundai. Also because it clearly points out that the Elantra is now competitive with the best small cars, and tops most of them, for thousands less. It was good to see the initial quality was on a par with Honda and Toyota, matching the Civic and besting the Corolla in sample defects--another sign that Hyundai is getting its quality act together. Sobers, too bad they didn't review your favorite model, the LX, but they had to go with the EX because of its ABS--CU has a fetish about ABS. Would be interesting to see how they rated the LX vs. the Elantra, given that the braking would have been more even (non-ABS on both) and the Elantra should have topped the LX in acceleration, and maybe on driver's comfort with the 8-way adjustable seat. I personally don't see how they can rate the Focus ahead of the Civic (or the Elantra for that matter); I guess they don't care if parts fall off the car after a couple thousand miles.

hkchan · January 2001

This is a common misconception of Consumer Reports' Overall Ratings. It has nothing to do with reliabilty, but in order to get a "check mark", meaning the model is recommended, it has to have at least an average predicted reliabilty rating. As you can see, the Focus is rated ahead of the Civic under "Overall" Ratings, but it's not recomended.

sobers · January 2001

That is one thing I don't understand of Honda, why ABS is not std on LX Accords & Civics. Prob'ly cost would spread across various models
& woiuld come cheaper on Ex too.

At least they should offer it as an option as on Accord Lx. We are having worst winter in past few years & ABS been proved helpful in more than 5-7 situations where I can feel that without it I would have ended up in fender-bender. Even though u drive carefully not all drivers are that courteous !!

Thanks god my 2000 Accord SE has ABS as std.
Is just doesnot improve on braking distance, also helps car in straight line when road gets slippery

sobers · January 2001

Yes, apart from the ABS, Civic LX makes much more sense to me than EX. The diff of almost 2K makes EX a lesser value than LX. (Though u get major chuck of that thru resale)

justin · January 2001

no apologies needed

. I really do like all types of cars. And, I did not get an "SUV" that is meant to be like a car.....no Honda CR-V's for me, thank you. I got a Pathfinder. The best SUV for $30k that anyone's money can buy. Period. It is a real truck that can go anywhere, do anything, is faster than most cars (240hp, 255 torque) and looks decent too!

I love small cars too. They are fun to drive, you can trash them and not feel guilty, and they sip gas. The SUV in me is mainly out of utility and safety. I know this can be debated heavily, but in snow and rain and floods (Which I have been in more than I would care to remember) I just feel safer, less anxious, if I am in the Pathfinder. Can't help it.....

If your price point is $20k or under, you MUST go with the VW. Any VW, even a base 2000 model golf with manual windows, has more class and substance than any of the other cars. My opinion....who cares about the 115 engine. The Hyundai or Hondas or Neons out there really are not THAT MUCH FASTER....the GOLF is safe, truly a beautiful car in 2 or 4 door or Jetta form, and the interiors and exteriors are put together better than most Infiniti's and all Hondas and Toyotas in my opinion.

kymcamp · January 2001

Good advice.It's still tough though, considering how I liked all three cars. Actually, the fact that you have a Pathfinder excludes you from that SUV set I mentioned (which was why I apologized). After all, Pathfinders and Isuzus and 4runners make no pretensions of being a car. But it seems the vast majority of so called SUV's on the market are nothing more glorified minivans pretending to be off roaders.

avsfan · January 2001

For what it's worth I used to sell guitars... The BEST guitars back at the beginning
of time were the Gibsons and Fenders built in the USA. Then they started importing
cheaper models from Japan (cheaper labor etc)... After 3-4 years the quality went
WAY up as well as the price... My Takamine lists at 1899 and 10 years ago it
would have been a $500 price tag at best.

So then they went to Korea once Ibanez, Tak etc were considered legitimate 'proffesional quality' guitars. At first the guitars coming out of Korea were crap again, but after a year
or two, they too improved radically but the prices started creaping up as well (see the pattern here?). Before I quit they went to Indonesian or some African country (I can't recall) and I sent back the entire batch of 50 guitars since they looked more like archery bows rather than guitars..
But if they kept at it, I imagine they improved the quality. If you stay at something long enough
unless you are Homer Simson or the Chicago Cubs, you almost HAVE to improve somewhat..

By the way I have a 1990 CRX SI (voted THE most fun car you can drive in 1988 by Automobile magazine and probably still holds true today) . I just bought a 92 Pathfinder (since it seemed to handle the best out of everything I drove). I've totalled 5 Hondas.. Not something to be necessarily proud of... But the ONLY way they break is if you don't put oil in them or drive them into trees or other cars... Total mileage: 1st civic: 90k brakes and clutch -crash, 2nd: civic 70k 100% stock -crash, 3rd: civic 143k tires/brakes clutch, alternator (due to stereo amp), 4th: 89 accord SI 194k tires/clutch/timing belt/ power window motor (water leaked in after
10 years). This one did lose 5th gear at 120k which totally surprized me... Poor oil flow
to 5th gear and lots of hwy miles I was told loosened/warped the shift fork which eventually broke..

5th: 80k (first CRX ( rolled it) all still stock). .. Current CRX is at 126k and still buries the needle at 125mph (Just ask the judge) and other than tires and brakes, timing belt and battery is still 100% STOCK parts (ok I forgot, the muffler rotted after 10 years) and it could use new CV joints and a valve adjustment. Also I don't think the stock clutch is going to hold out much longer due to my heavy driving.

Castrol syntec and prolong fuel treatment help a bunch! ) If you don't drive like I do, a Honda
could last you a lifetime. Are you listening DETROIT?

elantra00 · January 2001

wow avsfan, totalled 3 cars and pulled over for going 125mph...no wonder our insurance rates are so high!

kymcamp · January 2001

We'll the decisions are still hard. I didn't get around to those other test drives yesterday but I'm going to tonight. Then on Thursday I'll test drive my three top choices again (at different dealerships) to help decide.

I looked at a Y2K Elantra, it's an entirely different car then the 2001. It seems well built, but somewhat cheap. In contrast, the 2001 seems as though it should cost more than it does. The only thing is the metal's a bit thin on the Elantra (in comparison to my other two choices). That doesn't mean it isn't a well built car, but it might dent and ding a little more easily. I guess Hyundai had to cut corners somewhere to keep the Elantra cheaper than the competition. Still, Hyundai has finally hit the nail on the head with it's latest generation of cars. The Santa Fe especially seems to be changing minds about Hyundai. Of course, that probably means in a few years Hyundai will be overpriced like all the other imports.

You know, one of the things that impressed me most about the Hyundai was that it showed the position the auto was in on the dashboard. It seems a rare feature these days. I mean, you could look down at the shifter to see what position it was in, but in between the tach and the speedometer it had a series of bright green LED's with the current mode circled. It was a thoughtful touch by Hyundai. I'd still prefer a manual though. I could step down to the GL model, but it lacks airconditioning which is a $2000 option. Apparently the entire dashboard has to be removed to add A/C in the Hyundai. At least in the states the one model can be equipped with either transmission.

kymcamp · January 2001

Since I'm test driving the Candian models, I should mention the equivalent American model

Protege GT(2001)-don't know if there is an American equivalent.
Protege LX-identical
Protege SE-same as ES (why they're reversed is beyond me, but in Canada SE used to be for the "Special Edition" model)
Protege DX-identical

Elantra VE-similar to GLS automatic
Elantra GL-no equivalent

Golf GL-identical but Canadian version doesn't have A/C standard (money grab on VW's part, since almost everyone orders it).
Golf GLS-identical

justin · January 2001

Maybe VW thinks that standard a/c on their least expensive car in Canada is dumb. Is the price lower because of no a/c than the U.S. Golf GL, with standard a/c?

Maybe they think, like me, that Canada is this cold icy place and that some could live without a/c??

kymcamp · January 2001

Well, it is cheaper, but not by much. Still if everyone is going to order it, why not make it standard?

The joy of living in Canada is that it *is* an icy cold place in the winter, but almost as hot as Texas in the summer. In the nation's capital (where I live) temperatures can get as low as -20 Farenheit with the windchill, yet in the summer it can reach 104. Generally though the summer temp is in the low to mid 80's. We always seem to have a heat wave though when my cousin from Ft. Worth flys up.

--Kyle

scottintx · January 2001

Just curious. I was qouted $16100 (w/o Tax & TTL) for a Manual 2001 Honda Civic EX Sedan. No other charges. How does it stack up. I bought from the dealer before and he says he is gving me a great deal. Please enlighten me.

sobers · January 2001

anything from Invoice to +300$ is a very good deal
I guess, Honda will declare special APR in the month of Feb/March. U can take advantage of that too. Honda has target of 350K Civics this year.

kymcamp · January 2001

I'll briefly summarize the rest of the cars:

Ford Focus: wonderful car but too many recalls
Chyrsler Neon: Not enough headroom
Kia Sephia: cheap
Toyota Echo: ugly and weird

Today I test drove my top three again, back to back. The only difference was that I got a 2001 Protégé this time instead of a 2000 (they just came in this week). The new 2001 model doesn't drive any differently, even though the engine has been upped to 2.0L (you'd notice it in an automatic though). However it is far more stylish than the previous generation both outside and inside. It stands the middle ground between the Golf and Elantra both in perception and in price, so it will probably be my choice, but don't make any bets yet. Odd how my top three choices managed to be in the low, middle, and high parts of my price range.

--Kyle

dankg · January 2001

I have been looking for a small car for a while and would like to get a used Honda Civic DX. A dealer nearby has a 1997 with 48K miles for $9,500. I baulked because it was at the top end of what I wanted to spend.
Today the dealer called back and said he had a 2000 Hyundai Elantra with 6,300 miles for $8,300.
I don't have experience with the Hyundai make but
began reading up on them.
Any opinions out there? The vehicle would be mainly used for commuting to school.
Thanks......

elantra00 · January 2001

id go for the elantra....less mileage and a thousand cheaper. also, especially since the civic is a "DX" trim, you dont have power windows/locks/mirrors. so for a thousand less, you get a car that is pretty much brand new with power everything, 40k less miles and still under warranty (5 yr/ 60k i believe). Thats my choice, but either one you can't go wrong. its what YOU like. Good luck

sobers · January 2001

Civic DX with 48000 mileage for 9K ??
It will be very good if u can get it for Edmunds private Party value. Regarding Elantra, it depreciates like crazy, also u won't be getting 10year-100K powertrain warr. Hyundai Xmission had tendency to break before 60K mileage in the past, but if it sustains & breaks JUST after 60K miles u will spend atleast 1600 on it.

Look in the market, try to get Civic from Private party instead of a dealer...u will do much better(at least 1200-1500$ better)

elantra00 · January 2001

tendency to break after 60,000 miles? Let me CLARIFY this up. For pre-1995 model elantras, the timing belt had to be changed at 60,000 miles. If not, then it could cause problems. But lets see..that was about 6 years ago! That problem has been DEALT with and SOLVED. And to boot, if you changed the timing belt at 60,000 miles, then you would have no problems! This is a passed problem that has been fixed.
So lets stop hounding on passed problems that have been fixed and lets look at the present. You cannot change the past. Honda sucked when they first came out, as well as Hyundai did. Honda became great, and now so is hyundai. Just hyundai is about 5-10 years behind hondas rep so they are catching up now and their cars are fantastic.

....and 8300 is pretty good for a 2k elantra. I usually seen them for 10-11,000. But out of that one post, you are right about the depreciation....for now

At the rate hyundai is going, their resale value will be nearly if not as good as Honda. Give'm 5 years and you'll see, sobers.

If i were you dankg, i would take COMPLETE advantage of the depreciation, while you can. The cars resale will go up in the future cause the hyundais are only getting better. $8300 is a fantastic deal for a almost new elantra. unfortunately sobers is right, you wont be getting the 100,000 mile warranty because you are the second owner. but at least you ll get a 5 yr/60k warranty....better then the civic. civic warranty is up unless the dealership throws in a 2 yr which some do. but 3 yrs less then the new elantra warranty. Only if you need the best fuel economy, then maybe the civic would suit you better....or maybe a 1.0 litre 3 cyclinder 55 hp metro w/ 50 mpg. lol. But for performance, then the elantra.

sobers · January 2001

My intentions were not to drive away somebody from getting Elantra vs Civic. Everybody is smart enough to spend amount like 8k-9k properly.
I was just making aware of possible Xmission problems. There is one site (I forgot wed addr),
which deals with the Xmissions. It presented case study from all records of repairs(both warranty & others collected from various sources)

The site gives estimates for Xmission duarbility & overall quality
GM: The best shifting, reliable AUTOs, No probs until 100K mileage.
Toyota/Honda: 150+ Reliable. Toyota being more smooth.
Ford: 80k+
Chrysler/Koreans: 60-80K regular failure problems.
I don't remeber exact figures but these are pretty close. Please read my pevious post(apprx 50 post back) regarding this.

2001 Elantra is improved over 2000. So u will be getting previous generation car. Also mpg is 8-10 miles lesser for the Hyundai. When it comes to resale ur car again u'll get hit by depreciation or virtually buyer-less as nobody want to buy 4-5 year old used Hyundai as such....

elantra00 · January 2001

That record you gave of durability and reliability of the cars is not very accurate. Why i say that? well, i have a chyrsler product...a 96 jeep cherokee with 100,000 miles on it. not ONE problem with the car since new. my friend has an 87 mercury cougar with 235,000 miles. It just died, but it just goes to show you that any well maintained car can go over 150,000 miles.

Yet, I had an old 86 toyota corolla that i bought used. The engine went on it at 65,000 miles. But wait....they are suppose to go above 150,000 miles and be the one of the most reliable cars around? and i took good care of it. obviously the previous owner didnt since i got it at 50k miles.

My point is, it all depends on the owner. How you care for the car will determine its life span. Not so much the manufacturer but more of the owners end. you dont change the oil for 30,000 miles, constantly peel out, floor it, do a "transmission drop", etc. expect problems.

hkchan · January 2001

Of course it's not accurate. It's an estimate and an average based on previous experiences. The way you put it, it's all due to the treatments these cars receive. Then there's practically no difference in reliability and durability among all cars. Someone can cite a study that says someone with a college degree earns on average $15,000 (or whatever) more a year than someone without. You can always name a multi-millionaire who dropped out of high school.

And just to make myself clear. Yes, the '01 Elantra is a compelling choice.

backy · January 2001

are in for the '01 Elantra and, guess what, it bested the '01 Civic head-to-head (4drs with side air bags). Both got 4 stars in the rear. Elantra got 5 stars (highest rating) for the front, Civic got 4 stars. Frontal crash ratings should be out soon. I'd hope the '01 would do at least as well as the '00, which got 5 stars driver, 4 stars passenger.

kymcamp · January 2001

I'm impressed with those crash test scores. I read the glowing review Consumer Reports wrote about the Hyundai. Probably the best hint they liked the car is that they called it "to new to rate for reliability", and didn't base it on the manufacturer's history like they did with the also brand new Civic.

Still, I've decided to go with Mazda. I ruled out the Golf as just too much of a budget stretch at this point, but if I had the money I would. I revised my opinion on the Civic after looking at the Si coupe, the sport seats are much more comfortable than on the DX sedan. The location of the power mirror controls is bizarre though. Still, at 9% financing, no new grad rebate and a price higher than the Mazda and Hyundai I won't pick it.

Between Mazda and Hyundai it was right down to the wire, both cars offer 4.8% financing for 60 months, and Mazda Canada lowered (yes you read right) the price of the 2001 Protégé by about $1500. There's only about a $3000 Canadian (about $1800 U.S.) difference between the two cars. Tough choice. The basis for my decision? The power moonroof is standard on the Protégé GT and I can get a manual transmission. Hyundai Canada doesn't have any moonroof or sunroof equipped Elantra's and I'd have to go to an automatic. If I could get these features I'd probably be driving a Hyundai off the lot next week instead.

sobers · January 2001

Civic Coupe got 5 Front 5 side carsh. i.e all around 5 stars !! Civic sedan 5 frontal & 4 side carsh. So the crash test scores for civic are not lesser than Elantra. I have yet to see carsh test results for Elantra for 2001, will comment when I get to read.

Regarding Xmissions: Those figures were based on millions of vehicles of 90s. Apart from Xmission Hyundai's mail problem was Electrical problems.
yes, the warranty should help but it means likelyhood of ur car being out of service is more for Hyundai.

backy · January 2001

Sobers, as Ronald Regan used to say, "Well, there you go again!" It is not a fair comparison to compare a coupe's crash scores with those of a 4dr sedan--they have totally different body structures. Just as it would not be fair for me to compare the crash scores of the Elantra, with its standard side air bags, with the Civic without its optional side air bags (although we will be able to do that soon with the NHTSA publishes its results for the Civic sans airbags). I know it pains you to see the Elantra get better crash test scores than the comparable Civic models, since you had fun earlier touting the '01 Civic's scores vs. the previous generation Elantra's scores, but it's hard to dispute facts--which by the way can be found at:

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/ncap/ncap.cfm?lookup=yes&vehclass=car&vehdesc=Car

Once the frontal crash scores are posted for the Elantra, we will have a full comparison. May the better (stronger?) car win!

P.S. Maybe those 200 extra pounds on the Elantra are good for something other than bringing down its fuel economy after all. Come to think of it, maybe they also help contribute to the quiet ride that CR raved about.

kymcamp · January 2001

Looking at the NHTSA crash tests, it appears that the three safest cars in this market are the Hyundai, Honda, and Volkswagon. Of course, the front crash test scores aren't in yet, but it's likely to duplicate the 2000's 5 stars. My Mazda choice is more midpack along with the Toyota Corolla and Ford focus. Of course, in Canada I can't get an Elantra with side airbags, so the side crash test score would probably be lower. Still, with the Elantra it appears Hyundai has finally achieved what it's been trying to do for the last two decades. It's finally a car in the top of its class along with the Civic, Mazda, Focus, and Golf/Jetta. The 1st generation Elantra was decidely subpar, the second generation was midpack, but the third generation is finally ranked with the best. Consumer reports called it a "quantum leap" from the first generation, and now mentions the Civic and Elantra in the same breath without laughing. Oddly enough as Hyundai has climbed up, Toyota has fallen down to midpack. They just don't seem to be trying anymore with the Corolla. I guess they're too interested in their more profitable SUVs and the Avalon. If the car proves as reliable as it promises, then the Elantra will be secure in its top-class ranking.

sobers · January 2001

Somebody said it pains me that Elantra got good carsh test results. Boy, it is always pleasing to see very good carsh test scores of any vehicle. Consumers are entitled to nothing less. So it is very good that Elantra got ver y good crash scores
50 pounds though seem to be a big figure is nothing when comes to car-weights. 50 pounds is mere 22 Kgs guys. It is not going to make car more quite or safe.

Civic's popularity in the past is not due to its quiteness or best power in the class. It was due to proven reliability, performance, competent handling, it's wide range(Civic for everybody), great fuel consuption & rediculous returns when it comes to resale. That will continue to happen.
Given Civic is improved by a significant factor for 2001.

backy · January 2001

OK, maybe the 270 pounds (Civic EX 4dr 2610, Elantra 2880 per Consumer Reports 2/01) the Elantra has over the Civic has nothing to do with the Elantra's superior crash scores or ride quality. Then I guess we just have to attribute those features to superior engineering.

I agree that Civic's popularity is not due to power or quietness but reliability, competent handling, fuel economy, and resale value. The "Civic for everybody" thing that has been mentioned by "somebody" several times is puzzling, though. Comparing Civic to Elantra, Civic has a 2dr coupe and a 4dr sedan. Elantra has a 2dr coupe (which Hyundai chose to name the Tiburon, but it's the same platform and engine as the Elantra) and 4dr sedan. Elantra doesn't have three different levels of 4dr sedans like the Civic, because it doesn't need to. Instead, Elantra offers lots of standard equipment, over and above what's in the Civic LX, for $461 less than a Civic DX. And if you want features available on the Civic EX like moonroof and ABS, you can get them on the Elantra. So I really don't see what value the DX/LX/EX models offer to consumers, other than to provide Honda with a loss leader in the DX and a profit leader in the EX. How many DXs are sold vs. LXs and EXs? I don't see many DX 4drs on the road. If a buyer had the choice between power windows, locks, and mirrors or manual ones, and A/C or no A/C, for the same or lower price, which would they choose? The car with the power features and A/C, of course. So again the DX doesn't really give the consumer a choice except a way to get into a Civic, with its excellent fuel economy and reliability, for a lower price but with bare-bones features. Now Civic does have a couple of powertrain options not available on the Elantra, namely the HX with CVT and GX with natural gas, which will appeal to a few people. But the Elantra will soon be available in a 5dr hatchback, a model that Civic has nothing to compare to (since Honda dropped the Civic hatchback, alas). A turbodiesel engine is coming for the Elantra also, which should please people looking for high fuel economy. So where is the Civic's real advantage in model choices?

kevperro · January 2001

backy: When do we get that turbodiesel and what kind of specs for milage? I like everything about the Elantra but would like the extra milage. After driving the Elantra and pretty much everything in the compact class I am just stunned to say that I like it the best. I was very much prejudiced against it but I've test driven three of them now and have to say job well done. Much better car than our 98 Civic LX from the standpoint of road noise, comfort/room and power. Quality of build is right there with the Civic in my mind. I don't know what the long term prospects are going to be but the cars will either last, or Hyundai will go out of business. If you don't build a good vehicle and then offer that kind of warranty, then your company is history. I have to say that if they are willing to stand behind the vehicle, I'm willing to give them a chance.

bob343 · January 2001

I have a 2000 Elantra, (which I absolutely love), and have changed the oil twice since my purchase in June '00. On both occassions, I brought my car to Jiffy Lube where the filter and oil with the Pennzoil brand.
I noticed however, that when the oil is changed, the dip sticks reads about 1/2 of an inch above the full line. My manual states that I should not fill above the full mark. Jiffy Lube assured me that I should not worry abount a 1/2 an inch reading on the dip stick and that no harm would be done to the engine. For some reason, I can't help but feel that a strictly constructive interpretation of the manufacture's reccommendation is best.
Am I simply being overprotective of my new car?.....
Bob343

sobers · January 2001

Go with ur manual, if something happens tomorrow, warranty will work only if u have followed it. Don't give any excuse to the dealership.

Regarding Civic DX, it is not intended to sell in large #s, but many will want that to save a few bucks when economy slows down. 99/2000 saw consumers not hesitating costly purchase due to strong economy but it is changing now. I have seen many DX on the lot with manual which saves few more bucks for buyers. DX is a must for an economy sedan & it has worked very well to Honda since early 90s.

Regarding 280 pounds. Civic's crash score as is as good as Elantra, so 280 punds is an excessive weight for Elantra I guess !!

)

2001 Civic is remarkably quite. The way engineers worked on the flat floor is marvel of engg.

Happy Motoring Guys.

kymcamp · January 2001

It's not going to damage your car if you slightly overflow the fill line, but you may end up burning some oil.

isellhondas · January 2001

Be careful...some posters here can get VERY nasty and even personal if they don't like your comments about Hyundais!

backy · January 2001

According to post #373 in Hyundai Elantra 2 by bluewinds on Jan. 6, 2001, Hyundai will launch the turbo intercooler diesel Elantra this summer. That's all the info I have on this--maybe bluewinds or someone else can provide more details?

Re the humpless Honda Civics--that's a great design. Kind of amazing it took so long for someone to figure that out. The Elantra's rear hump is quite special, however: it's filled with 270 pounds of lead.

Honda Civic vs. Hyundai Elantra

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