Honda Civic vs. Hyundai Elantra

n2vsw · December 2002

I never owned a Honda or a Hyundai before so I had no preconceived notions one way or the other. I was looking for a small sedan for commuting that would also serve well for taking the family on short trips. I checked the civic first. I drove it, and negotiated a price for a basic one with automatic and not much else. Somewhere along the line between finalizing the deal I stopped at a hyundai dealer. I drove that as well and in my opinion I don't see much difference between the two in ride or build quality. It amazes me that people post how much better the ride in a civic is compared to a Hyundai or vice verso. I felt no difference. Come on, we're not talking the difference between a Mercedes and a Chevy here folks. What I did notice is that you don't get very much for your money with Honda. The Honda was close to $3000 more and to say that the interior is spartan is an understatement. We're talking crank up windows and cheesy interior. In my opinion, to keep the price from being even higher than it is, Honda is cutting more and more from the car in terms of features. Yes, the car may be reliable but I'm not willing to pay all that money for a basic econobox with no comfort features at all. I'm amazed they still give you a cassette player in the radio. Is the Hyundai reliable? If you do a little research you can't honestly say they have not improved from 10 years ago. I think they've improved more than people think. Their reputation from those early years is still following them around unfortunately. Either way the extra $3000 you'd pay for a Honda would pay for a whole lot of repairs on a Hyundai after the warranty expires. If the car remains reliable after the warranty then the $3000 savings would make up for any low resale value incurred.
Honda makes a great car, no doubt about it. You also pay for it though. 15 years ago a Honda was a great deal. They cost the same if not less than a comparable Chevy or Ford and they were so much more reliable. Today they are still reliable but you pay quite a bit more than a comparable vehicle. The Honda dealers don't negotiate as much. So the question remains, do you pay more for a better car? If this philosophy suits you then a BMW 325 is a little more than a Honda, just as reliable with a much better resale value. But you know, since we're looking for that better car for a little more there's that nice Mercedes C230 for $25,000. Where does it stop? For the price Hyundai is a good value. You get alot for your money and a good warranty. Are you willing to pay more for a Honda for a frugal interior and the POSSIBILITY that it will be more reliable than a Hyundai? I wasn't.

axp696 · December 2002

Those are some pretty strong facts for someone who had never owned a Hyundai. I could pick apart some of your statements line by line, but that's not the point. The fact is, their quality is still awful, and you'll easily go over that $3000 savings if you plan on keeping it for any decent amount of time over 5 years. Hyundais are still coming out of the factory with parts falling off them, even on their upper models. I wouldn't trust their econobox further than I could push it, and I have no doubt if you plan on keeping that car for a while, you'll be hitting yourself for it later. Good luck with your new car, of course. Hopefully it'll be better than my and my wife's experiences.

backy · December 2002

From your comments I take it you own or have owned a late-model Hyundai. If so, which one and what was your experience with it?

I own a '01 Elantra GLS, and my 2+ years of ownership have reinforced n2vsw's opinion that the Civic is no longer worth the price premium. I've owned two Civics, and they were both good cars--but so is the Elantra, which I believe is as good or better than the current-gen Civic in almost every area while costing thousands less.

You picked at n2vsw's statements, yet you made some pretty strong statements yourself. For example, "... their quality is still awful." Would you care to back that statement up with some facts--more so than just your personal experience with one car? A respected third party, Consumer Reports, has just rated every Hyundai model but one (the Tiburon, too new for CR to rate) at least Average in predicted reliability. Two models, the Sonata and Santa Fe, rated Above Average. Have you looked at Hyundai models like the Accent, Elantra, Sonata, XG350, and Santa Fe lately? Have you read any third-party reviews of those cars lately? For example, Car and Driver recently rated the Elantra GLS 2nd out of nine compact cars, with the Civic rated 5th ("a loser" they called it).

You also stated that an Elantra owner would easily go over the $3000 savings compared to a Civic if the car is kept more than 5 years. How do you figure that? Suppose you wanted to play it safe and purchased the extended Hyundai warranty, about $1000, which provides transferrable, no-deductible, bumper-to-bumper coverage for 10 years or 100,000 miles. You would still have $2000 in your pocket. Unless you drive a lot of miles every year, you'll be covered for every expense except maintenance and wear items for many years--far longer than you would be with the Civic, with its 3-year, 36,000 mile warranty.

diploid · December 2002

n2vsw- You said the Civic had crank windows. The only model in the Civic that does not have power windows as standard equipment is Civic DX.

MSRP, per Edmunds, for the Civic DX is $13,470.
TMV for the Civic is $12,617.
MSRP, per Edmunds, for the cheapest Elantra (GLS w/manual) is $13,394.
TMV for the Elantra is $12,687.

Where is the extra $3,000 for the Civic coming from?

backy · December 2002

Common market price for an Elantra GLS with automatic is between $11-12k. Remember, Edmund's TMV does not include rebates. The Elantra almost always has one, Civic does not (but does have 1.9% financing now). Best deal I've seen recently in my town for a '03 automatic with Package 2 (cruise and remote locking with alarm) was $11,300. Add automatic and A/C to the Civic DX, about $2k total, and maybe a stereo (I forget if the DX comes standard with a stereo or if so if it's just a radio). Now you are easily talking a $3000 difference, and the equipment on the Elantra is much more than on the Civic DX, or even the Civic LX.

jimbeaumi · December 2002

Here are some strong facts from someone who does own a Hyundai. In 17 months and 22K miles of ownership, I can assure you that the quality of this car is not "awful" and that no parts have fallen off of it. This car is quite comparable to other Asian compacts, and far superior to most American makes of any size.

I grew up near Detroit, know plenty of Big 3 employees, have relatives working for or retired from those companies, have read about cars since age 10, and have the car "bug" in my blood. During many of those years of Japan-bashing, I was in ignorant agreement regarding the "inferiority" of those cars, just because that is the way it had always been in the past. Despite ALL of that baggage, I will still NEVER go back to an American car, especially after this good experience.

chalupny · December 2002

Guys, you can post messages back and forth over which is better, Civic or Elantra, forever. I don't necessarily think there is a right answer. This is a situation where two people could make the opposite purchase decision and both be happy - or you could have people who made the same decision and both be unhappy. Do you pay extra for the vehicle that has demonstrated great reliablitly for a long time - or do you take the cost break and go with the vehicle that maybe had some reliability issues a while back, but appears to be greatly improved? I think both approaches are correct for different people. You can't ever know that you made the best decision at the time the decision is made. Do your research, take into account any personal experience you have with the makes you are comparing - then go with your gut instinct. That's what I did and I chose a Civic. Others did the same thing and they chose an Elantra. One thing I do agree with all the way was the statement about vehicle ride, appearance, etc... These are all subjective and I don't give much stock to it at all when these things are mentioned in reviews. I have a Civic - but I think the Elantra looks just as appealing and rides just as nice. I just thought that I would be happier with the Civic over the long term based on reliability. Much of that opinion is based on my experience with Honda products versus other makes. I can't prove to anyone that my decision was right - no one can prove it was wrong. Time will tell.

diploid · December 2002

backy -There is no doubt that the Elantra offers more than the Civic in terms of features and comfort. But I've seen Civic DX models advertised for much lower than Edmunds' TMV, as well. It's quite a sweet deal, although I personally would never buy such a basic model (crank up windows? hello...it's 2002, not 1980).

nihao4587 · December 2002

I am one of the people who happen to have owned both cars, 2002 Civic and 2002 Elantra GT.

Cost-wise. No big difference. Civic LX sedan AT without option, purchased at last May, was paid for about 13,500 not including fees and taxes. GT AT was paid at the same price but with sunroof as an option last October. In fact, I traded in the Civic for the GT when there was this 1,250 rebate going on and the poor quality of the Canadian-built Civic really pissed off my wife and me.

Car-wise. GT is more comfortable on the road by filtering lots road noise and bumps. It may be the quietest car in this class (the closest competitor in this area can be the new corolla. We testdrove new Protege as well, and found it was as noisy as the Civic by the way). The heavier Elantra also makes my wife happier since she feels more secure sitting it (of course, at the expense of the burning more gas which we still can afford). Civic does do a better job on corners with less bodyrolls and a secure feel on big turns with 70+ mph. On the other hand, GT is just so-so at this field. Personally, I think Honda is still the king in terms of handling in sub-20,000 cars no matter how bad its quality has dropped. Hyundai might be going toward Toyota for more ride comfort.

Hardware-wise. Obvious that our GT is fully loaded while the Civic is just OK. If I had chosen the ABS/TCS package on my GT, it would exceed Civic EX with alloy wheels, 4-disc brakes... just to name a couple.

Overall, I feel much better sitting in the Elantra GT knowing its warranty lasts 10 years plus the extended one we purchased for under one grand. I feel nervous in the Civic, hearing everyday complaints from my friends, who do not modifying their vics, on- and off-line (espcially the scary stories about driving the 7-gen Civic in heavy rain, if you know what I mean). I fear what the Civic will be after 3 years. By the time I traded it in, it had numerous rattles all over the car. Its protecting rubber seals had started to peel off. The brake fade could be felt dramatically just after 5 months ownership (while I always feel Elantra's brakes are softer despite they are 4-disc. I will bring this to the dealer sooner or later). Me and my wife are slow drivers. The Civic was our very first new car, so you can imagine how we treated it and how sad we felt after all these. Nevertheless, we are happy with our decision and the GT has proven to us that it is better than the Civic since the day one we got it.

srockr · December 2002

I just bought a black '03 EX Civic and let me tell you I just love it! It is one of the sharpest cars in our parking lot at work (with about 200 vehicles in it). I get a lot of compliments on it. The ride is great fun, not the smoothest but feels tight. Mine is not Canadian made. After reading various posts on the inferior Canadian made Civic I pretty much stayed away from them. I compared a USA made Civic with a Canadian made Civic which were side by side and could almost right away see 3 exterior panels on the body of the car not line up in the Canadian made one. The same panels of the USA made Civic were just as smooth as can be. I previously have owned two other cars which had reliablity issues big time which were due to faulty mechanical parts, etc. I'm over it. This is the main reason I choose Honda. So far no problems at all!

csandste · December 2002

I thought CR had both cars as average in this department. As for dealer service Power ranks both tied for fifth (is this delivery experience?.)

I think the big difference is the direction of both companies. IMHO the last gen. Civic was far superior to the present decontented one. Hyundai, just gets better and better.

I would be very interested to see what asp696's experiences really were. Did he own a late model Elantra or an early 90's Excel.

Honda was way ahead of the curve in the late eighties. Came close to buying an 88 Accord for a family member and it was so far ahead of the competition it wasn't even funny. It's sad to see the present model with its bloated Buick c-pillar and Skylark rear end. What happened? The European cars (sold as Acuras here) are a lot better. Apparently Honda's market research shows Americans want this kind of barge.

backy · December 2002

The 2003 CR Buyer's Guide has the Civic's predicted reliability up to Above Average, Elantra up to Average. I think the recent JD Power ratings you refer to were for how well the dealers rate the manufacturer for service (whatever that means, I didn't bother to read the fine print). I agree though that Honda is not improving as fast as Hyundai these days--which means Hyundai is catching up.

diploid · December 2002

As in life, it's much harder staying on top of the ladder than it is to climb up the ladder.

backy · December 2002

if you don't start going backwards.

csandste · December 2002

there are some negative reports on the xg boards, but almost all Elantra owners seem very satisfied. I really haven't heard anything about the kind of problems he's stated with this car-- or the last generation Elantra either, for that matter.

Tell us more, please.

n2vsw · December 2002

In response to your post, you are correct. I have never previously owned a Hyundai BUT I have never owned a Honda either. I did say in my comments that I had no preconceived opinions about either of them. You made a statement about all the parts falling off Hyundai's leaving the factory. Perhaps you could elaborate as I have not had that problem, haven't read about anyone who has, and I'm quite sure that if it was a common occurrence you be either reading about it or seeing it on some news show. (remember the lawsuit against Consumer Reports for stating the Suzuki Samurai would tip over?) I looked at the build quality of both makes and I was hard pressed to find a difference. Again, in my opinion, build quality relates to overall fit and finish not reliability. I would guess you owned a Hyundai and were less than pleased with it. I can name a Honda owner that was less than pleased with his as well, So [non-permissible content removed] for tat. I simply stated the reason for my decision. What I did fail to mention, and probably the MOST important reason of all why I chose the Hyundai, or rather why I didn't buy a Honda. It was the Holier Than Thou attitude of the Honda dealers. (You Honda owners know exactly what I'm talking about) The Honda dealers feel that because their car is reliable and retains a good resale value there should be no question as to the price they command. Heaven forbid you mention that your torn between a Honda and ANY other car. They will look at you as if your mentally deficient for not knowing what the obvious choice should be. I know all dealers will put down another make to make their car look better, I'm not that naive. The Honda guys go that extra mile with their condescending attitude. Ask the local dealer what rebates Honda has and see what the answer is. Honda doesn't have rebates, never did and probably never will. Thats a quote from Sterling McCall Honda in Houston by the way. My earlier comments simply stated what the tangible differences were to me without taking into account any personal opinions. Since you brought in your personal experience with your previous Hyundai ownership, I thought I'd share my Honda experience(or rather lack of)

diploid · December 2002

"The Honda dealers feel that because their car is reliable and retains a good resale value there should be no question as to the price they command."

So what was the price of the Civic vs. the Elantra? I'm still curious to see where that big $3,000 difference came from.

chalupny · December 2002

Look, everyone is entitled to their opinion - I certainly wouldn't argue that anyone's decision to purchase an Elantra over a Civic was wrong. But I found none of that "holier than thou" attitude at the Honda dealer I dealt with when I purchased my Civic a few months back - in fact they were quite willing to negotiate on price and I was able to purchase the car for just a few bucks over invoice. Of course I didn't expect to purchase a Civic for what I could have gotten an Elantra for. What you've basically admitted in your last post is that the MOST important reason you chose a Hyundai over a Honda had nothing to do with either of the vehicles. If I understand your last post, you are saying the main reason you purchased an Elantra was because the Hyundai dealer was somehow nicer - or because Hyundai offered a lower price/higher rebate. If you made the decision that the Elantra offered what you needed for a price less than the Civic - then that is certainly a valid position. I'm not quite sure I understand you're being somehow offended by the fact that Honda doesn't offer the prices, incentives, and rebates that Hyundai does. Why should they? If you could sell more cars than your competitor and charge a higher price - wouldn't you? The debate over what you get for the price you pay is always valid. When someone says that they thought they were getting more for their money when purchasing
an Elantra over a Civic - I accept that as a rational decision. If the extra features they get are important to them and the ownership experience is positive - then they certainly made the right choice for themselves. However, your post would indicate that emotion played as big of a part as logic in your decision.

backy · December 2002

Three recent occurances that lead me to believe it's best never to say never, as the good people at Sterling McCall Honda did:

* Quote from a salesman at my local Honda dealer regarding the Elantra: "Yes, there are many fine small cars to choose from these days."

* Civics selling for well below invoice.

* Honda dealers actually advertising sale prices, not just lease rates (not a big deal in some cities, but unheard of until recently in my town).

diploid · December 2002

Civics selling for below invoice is correct...which is why I'm very curious as to where the $3,000 difference came from, since the Civic was noted as having crank windows, which is only available on the base model DX.

If you go by TMV, that basically means n2vsw paid a little over $9,000 for an Elantra. I don't think even Hyundais don't sell that low.

backy · December 2002

I've seen Elantra GLSs advertised for as low as $9850. So it is possible that the difference between an Elantra and a Civic DX 4-door with A/C and stereo could be $3000. BTW, the Civics I've seen advertised below invoice are EXs. Why are you so obsessed with this $3000 thing, anyway?

diploid · December 2002

Because it's a huge amount. And we're talking about a DX Civic here...very few people buy them. Honda has even stated that its DX models are primarily used to lure people into the dealerships. Even the cockiest Honda dealers I've incurred would not haggle with you about a DX model - they'd be happier either giving it to you or moving you up to the LX or EX models, where they really start getting cocky.

And the dealer rarely touches the DX models when it comes to options, unless you specifically ask for them. If you want a DX with A/C and a CD player, I'm willing to bet that the dealer will point in the direction of an LX Civic. He's not even going to through the trouble of having his people install those options on the DX.

backy · December 2002

>>> He's not even going to through the trouble of having his people install those options on the DX. <<<

I can't imagine a dealer turning down someone's $1000 or whatever they charge these days for dealer-installed A/C, if someone asks to have A/C installed in a Civic DX. Or turn down someone's money for a stereo, either. I agree that the LX is a better value, but I guess some people do actually buy the DX models--I see them once in awhile on the road.

diploid · December 2002

It happens. He gains more by pointing you to an LX Civic, which has power windows (unable to install that in the DX model with crank windows), power locks and a stereo. The customer, in turn, also gains because the real world difference between a DX and LX Civic is not as great as their respective MSRPs would imply.

n2vsw · December 2002

diploid...I guess I should clarify a few things. When I started looking at vehicles in my price/size range the first place I visited was a Honda dealer. This is more due to location since it was the first dealership near my home. I was up front with the salesman when I first walked on the lot. I told him I was comparing other vehicles and I wasn't going to buy right there and then. I wanted a small car with automatic,power steering, power windows etc. What one normally expects in a car these days. I asked for their best price and told them they'd get one shot at it. If a Toyota or Nissan was less money for a comparable car then I wouldn't be back. This initially didn't work as they'd quote me $200 under the sticker. I didn't argue or ask for a lower price. I'd simply jot it down on my notes and get up to leave. Then they'd scramble thinking I was kidding about going to another dealer. Finally after about 4 quotes (and mind you I never once asked them to go lower) they gave me their bottom line at 14,800.(it was in fact an LX.) I thanked them and told them I'd be going to the Toyota dealer down the road. I thought it amusing at the time when they commented on Toyota's reliability not being all that good compared to Honda. I visited Toyota and Nissan and they didn't have what I wanted in terms of color, options and price. I returned to Honda and closed the deal. I was getting my own financing through my credit union so I was going to return in a few days to pick up the car. As I stated in a previous post, before returning to the Honda dealer I stopped at hyundai (I don't know why) The Elantra with all the options including ABS and traction control was 11,900. I went home and did some quick research on Hyundai and found they weren't as bad as their reputation was leading everyone to believe. I talked with a few people at work who I knew owned hyundais and they seemed to be happy. One co-worker already had three of them. I returned to Honda to cancel the contract (In Texas you have three days to cancel no matter what the reason). This is where the dealer tried to match the price point of the Hyundai by showing me a cheaper civic. It was not lost on me that it was a bare bones model with crank up windows. This is where the $3000 difference came in. It wasn't between the Elantra and a Civic DX but rather the LX which is the car I had initially chosen. My mistake for not clarifying that.

chalupny.... The Elantra was quite a bit less for more features and with a better warranty. That boiled down to money pure and simple. I've been known to pay more for things when I know it isn't the best choice but I overlook that for one reason or another. So money is not always the only reason. When I returned to the Honda dealer to make the deal I went there because I didn't have another viable alternative. It galled me to buy the car from them. I was treated in a condescending manner, told I needed to use their financing to get the lowest price and generally treated like I was some dope. Was there some emotion involved? Call it what you will but if this is how they treat a prospective customer how do they treat their existing customers? When I had another option that was less money and a more pleasant buying experience I gladly took it. I believe the buying experience is one of the reasons Saturn does so well. People know they are paying full sticker price and that the dealer is making a generous profit. I am told by Saturn owners that the buying experience is worth it. From YOUR post I take it you don't feel this is a valid reason for making a decision. So, are you telling me that you don't mind being treating like [non-permissible content removed] at a restaurant so long as the food is good? A dealer has to earn my business and their business practices have to reflect that. In regards to prices of Honda in general here in the Houston area, they are not very negotiable. They are in short supply so the dealers are somewhat arrogant. That fact I'm sure has a lot to do with it. I'm originally from the northeast and dealers there have all their cars lined up in front of the lots with a few pick ups in back. Here it is the other way around. More pick ups are sold than cars. Hyundais have a huge market share in Florida and New Jersey why? I don't know but market area affects price. If you live in an area where dealers really negotiate on Hondas and are great and happy salesmen then more power to you.

hamproof · December 2002

Here's a question for you. For the Saturn owners that are paying full MSRP for their cars knowing very well the dealerships are making thousands from them but they are ok with it because of the buying experience, can you ask them if they ever tried going to a Honda or Toyota dealership and offer MSRP for the cars?

I am sure Honda and Toyota will be more than happy to sell the car to them as MSRP coz' most of the time, the cars will be sold below MSRP. So, there's no haggling involve just like the Saturn dealerships. In fact they might save a few hundred if not thousands coz' the cars might actually be sold at below MSRP.

I think what it is is basic human nature/instinct driving the Saturn buyers. They don't want to feel that they paid more than the next person but it is ok if everyone paid full price at the Saturn dealerships.

So, my hyphothesis is they buy at Saturn not because of the experience. I believe it is because they do not want to hear from their neighbor down from where they live, they paid $100 less than what they paid if they bought the same Honda or Toyota. What do you think?

n2vsw · December 2002

The reason that Saturn owners don't simply pay MSRP for either a Toyota or Honda is this; For the sake of argument, your average (I stress average)price of a Civic or Corolla is about $15,000. This is not MSRP but rather what most people can negotiate with a little effort on their part. The MSRP of a Saturn is $15,000. No haggling, or negotiating involved. So a Saturn happens to be priced right where most people can buy their Corollas and Civics without all the headaches of negotiating. If this works for you then great. I look at it this way. Yes, a Saturn is comparably priced with a Civic or Corolla and it is a decent car (although it's design is now very dated) But if I subtract the $1500 dealer profit now your looking at a car that should really sell for less than Civics and Corollas yet your still paying top dollar. It can be called semantics I guess but I just refuse to give the dealer that much profit without a struggle. I'm not going to argue that you can get Civics or Corollas for less. I stressed average because some sell for less some for more.

hamproof · December 2002

and expects the customers to negotiate. So I have to disagree with you on this.

I think they based the price of the car based on what competitors are selling their cars at.

Here's an example. I just picked up a Saturn car randomly.

2002 Saturn S-Series 3dr Coupe SC2 with:
- 5 speed
- 15" alloy
- Sunroof
- ABS
- dest

MSRP = $18,295 Invoice = $16,556

Note that invoice is more or less what the Saturn dealership paid GM.

Now, for an equiv. car, say a Honda Civic EX Coupe
Everything that I added on the Saturn SC2 is standard on the EX Coupe.

Here's the price:
MSRP = $17,270 Invoice = $15,824

As you can see, the MSRP of the Honda is even lower than that of the SC2. I'm sure if you look up an Accord and L series, the Honda MSRP is probably a little higher than Saturn but that's coz' Accord is a better selling car.

To tell you the truth, I was expecting the SC2 MSRP to come below that of Civic EX Coupe prices.

You are assuming a comparable Saturn MSRP will be somewhere bet. the MSRP and Invoice price of a comparable Civic or Corolla (for example). Well, it looks like in the case of SC2 and Civic EX Coupe, that's not the case.

Also, isn't it the invoice price that matters? The Saturn dealership is making $1700 just for being there and if I paid MSRP for the Civic, they make $1400. Still less than the Saturn. Anything less is sugar obviously.

Besides, Saturn is not like a BMW where the customers is charged MSRP almost every single time. But that's because almost all BMW dealership charge MSRP. So, what if all Honda, Toyota, GM, Ford etc. starts charging MSRP like Saturn? But of course we have to agree that the MSRP for other cars are representative of the cars' value just like Saturn.

chalupny · December 2002

Look, All I'm saying is that there is a difference between a salesman being rude or condenscending and them being unwilling to deal with you. If the guy you dealt with was actually rude then you were right not to deal with him. However, If a salesman tells you that he won't come off the price any more because he doesn't have to (knows he can sell the car to someone else in the near future at that price or better) - and that pisses you off - well, you're the one with the problem. You are the one spouting that the Elantra is a better deal for the price. You then come back with a post where you say the MOST important reason you didn't buy a Civic was because the dealer wouldn't come down on price, or offer a rebate, and had a condescending attitiude. You then proceed to insinuate that all Honda dealers act like this and anyone who purchases a Honda is nuts for putting up with it. Your post where you attribute the quote about Honda never offering rebates and probably never will - tells it all. Why would this stateement upset you? Why should Honda offer rebates if they can sell the cars without doing so? This whole "everybody mistakenly thinks Honda's are better than they really are" argument is old and weak. I sometimes wonder if the people who use this argument are those who fear they have made the wrong choice - but desperately need to justify their choice to themselves and others. You paid less for a car that had more features. Did you get more features for your money? - absolutlely. Did you get a better car for a lower cost? - I don't think so. But that really deosn't matter - if you think you did -then great.

sambojoho · December 2002

The Hyundai Elantra is a better car than the Civic. The low price and fantastic warranty are just icing on the cake.

n2vsw · January 2003

Let me clarify something for you on basic economics. You are mistaken if you think a dealer wont come down on a price of a car because "he can sell the car to someone else in the near future at that price or better" This is only true in two cases. He is allocated a certain number of vehicles to sell. This works for things like Harley Davidson, Dodge Vipers, and Ferraris where dealers are only given a certain number of vehicles to sell. They want to sell those things at top dollar. The other case is simply supply and demand. If the car is in short supply or there is a big demand because it's popular then again, they get top dollar. A good example of this would be a mini cooper. The last time I checked civics were neither in short supply nor in demand to a point where they are scarce. If a dealer can sell you one and make his minimum profit then he will do so. Sure there might be a guy who comes in an hour later who'd pay $500 more for that same car but then again there might not be. He could sit on that car for a week waiting for that elusive buyer who'll pay him that extra $100 that you offered him. Dealers don't do business that way. (you've no doubt heard the saying a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush)If 50 people went in to the local Honda dealer today and offered $200 over true invoice (whatever that may be) the dealer would sell them in a heart beat. He'd have his inventory replenished in a week if not less. It's called selling volume and getting a little less profit for it. Of course if the sales manager didn't get laid last night and is in a bad mood or if you rub them the wrong way for whatever reason they may hold out for more than they would on some other day.
Your mistaken if you think I'm upset that he didn't deal with me or that I think Honda's are over rated. I've mentioned more than once in my postings that I had no preconceived notions about either car. I did after all go to a Honda dealer so that shows I was interested in the car. What I don't have to put up with is the attitude. I didn't and I left. I got this same attitude from another Honda dealer in Houston. Is this coincidence? I have no idea, call it what you will. All I know is that I didn't buy a Honda because I didnt care for the way I was treated. Am I insinuating that all Honda dealers are like this?, no I'm not stupid, I'm sure there are Honda dealers out there who are great. The trouble is I'm not going to travel 100 miles to that great dealer somewhere. If the dealer is lousy on the buy, what are they like on the service? I will however, say you are nuts if you are treated this way and put up with it, they need you not the other way around.

Lastly let's look at your comment "This whole "everybody mistakenly thinks Honda's are better than they really are" argument is old and weak. I sometimes wonder if the people who use this argument are those who fear they have made the wrong choice - but desperately need to justify their choice to themselves and others." Yup, I think that I got a great deal and I'm happy with what I bought. Am I "spouting" it as you say? I sure am, but I'm doing it on a Hyundai board. Thats what this board is here for. You don't see me going to the Honda board and bashing the Honda's right? I'm sure the people who bought Honda's are very happy with them and they discuss it among themselves over on their board. It's pretty obvious that it is you who has the problem, the fact that you like Hondas is pretty obvious from your rhetoric and yet here YOU are on the Hyundai board telling us all how, in your opinion, we didnt get a better car for a lower cost. Maybe you got lost in the board selection process? you meant to click on Honda and somehow ended up here. I'm pretty sure you'd be much happier over there though, You can all pat each other on the back at what great cars you all have.

gt_fan · January 2003

n2vsw,

You're right when you say that not all Honda dealers treat their customers poorly. I'm sure that there are plenty of them out there that put customer service first. My problem is that I've never been into one. My local Honda dealer is the only one in this county of close to 500,000 people, and darn well knows it. I've shopped there several times over the last 12 years (and a change of ownership on their part, which didn't seem to help) and while they're usually polite, there's always this unspoken attitude that they'd be doing me a favor to sell me one of their precious cars. I found this to be uniformly the case at several different Honda dealers in three different cities where I've lived over the years.

I really like Hondas. I've driven a lot of them and have owned several of their motorcycles over the years. Both my brother and sister have driven nothing but Hondas for years and have had fabulous luck with them. But I've never been able to get past the attitudes of the salespeople I've worked with. By contrast, all three of the Hyundai dealers I visited when I bought my GT were very friendly and genuinely seemed to want to do what it took to earn my business.

n2vsw · January 2003

I can't help but wonder if Honda Motors Corp is oblivious to this and what would happen if they really tried to get their dealers to eat some humble pie. Can you imagine? A good car and truly pleasant dealers who weren't arrogant?

rivertown · January 2003

From what I can tell, Honda does camp on dealers who give poor sales service. It's market forces that make a difference, as Si buyers are finding. Most dealers are very sweet when they've got cars they aren't selling.

If you want a Honda and the local dealer is a jerk, my thought is to net shop. By-pass the sales hooey. If you think you're trapped with a specific dealer, you are; but it's not necessary. The service shop will take care of your car, and you've got the Honda org to back you up if they don't.

chalupny · January 2003

Dude, get a grip. I don't know what you're problem is. I've never said anything bad about Hyundai. In fact, I've said more than once that you do get more features for the price with an Elantra over a Civic. I've also said that I couldn't argue with anyone who used that logic to buy a Elantra. I just happened to go a different way. I felt the long term quality and reliability of the Civic was better and was willing to pay a little more and get less features because of it. I can't even argue with anyone who thinks the Hyundai will be as reliable as the Civic - it may very well be. I just didn't think so. You're the one saying all the Honda dealers are jerks and that people just buy into some myth about Honda's being good cars. I don't need a lesson in economics. If a car dealer won't sell you the car for the price you want to pay it is because the price you want is below his minimum acceptable selling price - period, deal with it. If his real reason for not giving you the price you want is to make you mad -he's a nut. I tend to see a little aggressiveness in your personality - this may hinder you're negotiations somewhat. It's apparent that when someone tells you something you don't like you kind of go off the deep end. Like the way you freaked out in that last post about me somehow encroaching on the Hyundai board. Has it not occured to you that this topic may be on both boards? I can assure you that when I come into this topic it is through the Honda Civic board. Why would that matter anyway? Don't bother responding - I won't see it. However, if it will make you feel big (and I'm sure it will) flame away. Good luck with your Hyundai. I'm done with you.

backy · January 2003

About a year ago I read (and posted somewhere, maybe on the Low-End Cars board) a story about how Honda and Toyota were going to put a lot of effort, and money ($10,000 per dealership I think), into training to improve how their dealers treat customers. I don't remember all the details, but one thing I remember because I thought it was kind of funny was that the program would teach salespeople nice ways to tell people that the price of a car was over MSRP.

To be fair, you can take a look at the Hyundai boards and find all kinds of examples of not-so-great dealers. So they're all over. The two Hyundai dealers I've used in my area have been fine so far, so no complaints there.

diploid · January 2003

I think the argument, however, is that Honda has more arrogant dealers. I read in a Forbes article that Honda has the highest profit per car in the industry. Given that, I think there might be some truth in the high number of arrogant Honda dealers.

The supermarkets in my area are similar - the ones with less business have the better customer service.

backy · January 2003

How could that be? Are you talking percent or amount? I would expect luxury makes like Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, Audi, Lexus, Infiniti, and even Acura would have a higher profit per car than Honda. Maybe in their market segment, Honda has the highest profit per car.

scooter71 · January 2003

one has greatly improved in the fit and finish department, while the other has gone backwards (my '95 civic, friend's '94, and another's '92 all had far better fit and finish than the 2 generations since). my opinion is also that the civic's suspension evolution has gone backwards.

my dilemna is whether to choose motor and transmission quality despite mediocre interior and exterior finish (civic), or excellent fit and finish, features, and motor reliability and mediocre transmission reliability (elantra) when i buy my next car.

(btw, i had a new '91 hyundai excel that is still on the road with no problems whatsoever.)

jimpimms · January 2003

I've met two people in the past year that once owned Excels, and another who owned an early model Sonata. Every one of them started to have minor problems with the cars, and eventually got rid of them. One Excel had over 140K miles on it; the other Excel and the Sonata both had gone over 170K miles. All claim that their Hyundai was one of the best cars they've ever owned, and relatively trouble-free to the end. Is a Civic THAT much better?

rivertown · January 2003

I don't have a take on current Hyundai reliability, but . . .
I do remember the Hyundai's of the 80's. They looked great new and sold cheap. The prob was, they started falling apart, literally, within 3 years. That kind of rep is hard to shake.

Hyundai's doing better these days? Great! If they keep it up long enough, the new rep will stick. 'Till then, if the quality is actually good, Hyundai buyers get a bargain.

Honda, Toyota, and Datsun went through this in the 60's-70's. Datsun blew it, IMO, and became Nissan (and blew it again).

You just can't take good money from consumers for junk and expect to bounce right back.

Anybody eager to see a new Yugo? Even at a bargain price?

backy · January 2003

Rivertown, you may be surprised to learn that Hyundai's reliability has improved a lot since the '80s. For example, Consumer Reports ranks every Hyundai it has sufficient data on (that is, all but the redesigned Tiburon) at least Average in predicted reliability, with some models (Santa Fe and Sonata) ranked Above Average. That is not quite Honda level yet, but making huge strides.

I guess you haven't looked at Nissan lately either. They have some fine products now: Altima, Maxima, Murano, Z, G35 to name a few.

rivertown · January 2003

Very cool for Hyundai and Nissan; cool for Yugo, even, LOL. You missed the point of my post.

No big deal, though.

backy · January 2003

My post was in response to your statement,
I don't have a take on current Hyundai reliability, but . . .

I was trying to help you get a take on current Hyundai reliability. Guess it's easier to make flip remarks about Yugos than keep up to date on what is going on in the auto industry with Hyundai, Nissan, etc. That's cool though.

diploid · January 2003

backy - It doesn't say, but I assume it's against all other manufacturers, non-luxury or not. For one thing, most of the luxury cars these days are leased, not purchased.

"Not surprisingly, Honda made more money per car than any other automaker, $1,661. That's nearly $400 more per car than Nissan Motor (nasdaq: NSANY - news - people ) and $500 more than Toyota. GM was the only domestic producer to make money: just $337 per car. Ford Motor (nyse: F - news - people )? It lost $1,913."

http://www.forbes.com/2002/11/14/cz_jf_1114honda_print.html

rivertown · January 2003

Thanks for your take and report on Hyundai reliability. Owner testamony counts. What will really count with me is to see 8-10 y/o Hyundai's on the street looking good and running clean. I think Hyundai can do that, just like everybody else who's done that. Thought the current Hyundai's could be the foundation for that, 'tain't done yet.

I also agree, it's easier to make flip remarks than to engage the issue.

backy · January 2003

I see them all the time, especially Accents of the '95 vintage and 1st-gen Elantras. That's quite a feat in the Salt Belt--for any car. (For example, my '85 Civic started rusting after about six years even with excellent care.) But I think the more recent models are going to be the long-term keepers, because of the long powertrain warranty that started in '99 (?) and the higher quality of the cars, which makes them more pleasant to keep for many years.

rivertown · January 2003

There was a Festiva in my family, circa '90?, of extraordinarly good design and quality and value, which earned my respect for Korean manufacture.

The early Hyundais were a travesty, though. I never owned one, but I had too many friends and associates buy Hyundai vehicles that would not outlast the note.

From what you're saying, Hyundai is attempting to recoup that early lousy rep for reliability and durability. That's a good thing.

My comparison to Yugo wasn't frivolous. Imagine what it would take for anyone to buy a Yugo, given the history, if they were to attempt a comeback. Suzuki, IMO, is fighting that battle, too.

backy · January 2003

Suzuki is nowhere close to being like Yugo. Suzuki has had a positive reputation for reliability, and although its vehicles have not exactly been class-leaders they at least have been good quality. For example, reviews of the Aerio have been less than glowing, but they have pointed out the quality of manufacture of the car. The one black mark on Suzuki's reputation in the U.S. has been CR's calling one of its first 4x4s "Not Acceptable" because of its tendency to roll over in CR's tests.

rivertown · January 2003

You're right, Backy! Suzuki is not Yugo.

Honda Civic vs. Hyundai Elantra

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