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When Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mazda copied DC's original success with a Volkswagen idea, the Americans who had driven Japanese brand small cars started buying the Japanese brand that they loved as a car.
Brand loyalty is important.
I test drove a 2002 Odyssey EX-NAV-L 12/29 and was very impressed with the improved power, ride, and quietness over the 2001 Odyssey EX. The Odyssey is a nice minivan.
However, the question still comes back to me: Do I want to give up the extra nice comfort and convenience features I get on a DC minivan? One leaky head gasket has not convinced me that my friends were not telling the truth when they said they had no problems with any of their DC minivans. Many are now driving their 3rd DC minivan based on past satisfaction.
Most problems with DC minivans are for pre-99 models. There are simply not as many problems being reported in the Town Hall on DC minivans as there are for the Odyssey and Sienna.
Oh, I also bought a 2001 Dakota last spring. I think I need to dump both for a Ford or GM Product, which I was buying for the last 20 years. Never had these problems before.
Dwayne
Also, here is one veteran owner of two Caravans over the past 10 years who will be looking elsewhere when my '99 GCS lease is up in 2004. By then, Honda and Toyota should have new generations of their vans out, Mazda's next-gen MPV may be out by the fall, a new Windstar should be available, and Nissan's new Quest might be ready (just saw an artist's conception of the showcar version of it in C/D, and it's one slick looking van). I'll also check out all the mid-sized SUVs and maybe some wagons. I'll still consider the Caravan in the mix, but it will still be the current generation, which I already know is not that much better IMO than my '99 GCS.
The first sign of the fall of the minivan market was the rising popularity of SUVs (didn't exist a few years ago). Now, the manufacturers are rushing to market with all kinds of new "cross-over" vehicles hoping against hope that they will hit on the next home run segment. They only wish that they could be as successful as Chrysler has been with the minivan idea. As far as DC's future, it cannot be based on the minivan because the market for this vehicle will erode and diffuse into new mutations, trends and fads. Do you think todays twenty-somethings want to drive minivans when they grow up? NEVER! The minivan will forever be associated with the late 20th Century and will be a thing of the past in another 10-15 years. So bring on the PT Cruisers, Crossfires, Neon SRT's. The company with the best CURRENT ideas will thrive in the future.
Even the minivan's popularity should wane, it could come back. Remember the death of the convertible, circa 1976? Now they're back again. Likewise 5-door hatchbacks--suddenly they are all the rage again, after being nearly wiped off the face of the earth (with the exception of Saab). Even station wagons are making a comeback.
I am 16 years old and I can figure out why Chrysler is loosing market share in the minivan segment. ITS COMPETITION, just as indydriver pointed out. Its so simple and I don't understand why so many Odyssey owners don't get this. Or maybe it's because they don't want to aknowledge this. The more competitors you have in any given market, regardless of the quality of the product, the sales leader in that area will slowly loose profit to these many new competitors.
As for Chrysler and needing rebates to sell all of it's vans, there is an easy response to that as well. Do you think that if Chrysler produced such a limited quantity of vans as Honda, they would need to offer rebates to move them off the lot? Of course not. That's simple logic too.
Now, I don't know what's up about the master of doom and gloom otherwise known as eneth who continues to make the picture look as horrible as possible for Chrysler, which it isnt. It is obvious they are in trouble, and need some serious restructuring, but they are not on an endless pathway to complete destruction as you might want us to believe. And if they are gone in another 5-10 years, oh well. I was wrong. But only time can prove whether I am right or wrong and not someone who bashes DC minvians at any chance he gets.
-Adam
Rebates and zero interest financing? Honda hasn't had to use those on the Accord, which isn't production-constrained (and is the best-selling car of 2001, despite that).
300M? Yes, it was critically acclaimed - but it hasn't sold accordingly. DaimlerChrysler needs at least one - and probably more - category buster, a car that will sell in large numbers, and that will draw attention to its other products. It had its best chance with the current generation minivans and blew it big time - overselling the previous model, overpricing the new ones, and overequipping those it produced. There's no question that DaimlerChrysler improved the vans quality wise, but everyone else has improved as well - the differences just aren't there to make a compelling reason to purchase a DaimlerChrysler van over an Odyssey or other model.
I don't think Chrysler is on a pathway to complete destruction - there will always be Dodge trucks and Jeeps, along with probably minivans. However, Chrysler is assuming the same role in the DaimlerChrysler organization that AMC assumed in Renault (and then Chrysler) - it's competitive in trucks, but not in cars. One of the first acts Lee Iacocca took after buying AMC was to axe its non-competitive car lines, which is something I suspect is coming for Chrysler Group as well. Almost every platform now sold will be replaced from outside - the Neon/Stratus-Sebring by Mitsubishi/Hyundai, and the LH models by Mercedes-derived units. The coupe versions of the Stratus-Sebring are already Mitsubishi-based, and the next PT Cruiser will likely end up on a Mitsubishi chassis. That leaves the above models for Chrysler Group.
Although fans of the old Chrysler Corporation would no doubt love to see it independent again, that will never happen - things have changed too much, and Chrysler Group is no longer a standalone automaker - it is part of DaimlerChrysler, and could no more stand alone than AMC could have after Renault decided to divest itself of that automaker.
Chrysler revival is working.
And on that note, perhaps we can get now back to the topic please?
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
"....There's no question that DaimlerChrysler improved the vans quality wise, but everyone else has improved as well - the differences just aren't there to make a compelling reason to purchase a DaimlerChrysler van over an Odyssey or other model....".
We have looked closely at all minivans and will be able to do it once more in a few weeks at the Annual Auto Show where all vehicles can be closely compared under one roof. Our choice is narrowed down to Odyssey LX, GC eL or T&C eL.
We have compared the GC eL @$24,165 and Odd LX @$24,690. The Odyssey has more power, a 5 speed AT, and the Magic Seat. On the other hand, the GC eL has Triple Zone Temp Control, Complete Overhead Console with compass/outside temp/ trip computer, Remote Keyless Entry, heating coils at base of windshield, and padded armrests on the front doors.
The great reliability of dozens of DC minivans owned by people we know is far more important to me than the few problems that are repeated over and over here in the Town Hall by disgruntled former owners of DC minivans.
Everyone's entitled to express their own opinions - and should be able to do so free from denegration by others.
We personally knew the owners of 7 Honda Accords in March 1999. Four had major problems and only 3 had been reliable. First hand, verifiable data is more significant to me when I spend my money than the anecdotal data in CR.
In our area, DC minivans have a far better reliability record than do Honda Accords...When the flagship seller of Honda had proven unreliable for friends, I was not willing to take a chance buying an unreliable brand.
So although CR's data wasn't relevant to your case, it sure was to mine - and I'm sure thousands of others who reported the problems they published.
That, plus the DaimlerChrysler vans' recall history, should give one pause in considering a new one - there are plenty of better choices out there (or at least let your neighbor be the one to determine whether the 2001+ models are actually, finally, improved - unless you can afford to gamble with $25,000+.
There was NO better choice for us in 1999 than the 99 GC SE which has MANY more nice comfort and convenience features than the nice Odyssey. We are considering the Odyssey along with DC minivans for our next new vehicle. Until or unless we have any serious problems with our DC, the comfort and convenience of the DC will keep us with DC instead of the extra space of the Odyssey.
http://www.detnews.com/2002/autosinsider/0201/07/autos-383760.htm
There's nothing quite so stomach-turning as driving down the road at 40 mph, hearing a metallic snap-clang, and feeling your engine race as your car decelerates - and at 18,000 miles. Then you've got the wonderful experience of being without a car for three weeks while it's repaired - and then 30,000 miles later, all over again - until - wait for it - you get laughed at when you try to trade the junk on a decent car where trade-in is concerned.
If you've been through that, you never want to do it again - and fortunately, in the U.S., there are plenty of other automakers who show they care more about the consumer than they do about the sale.
It's been 12 years now - and we've not had one unscheduled repair in all that time, on three vehicles - two Toyotas and a Subaru. Must be some kind of adjustment for the biweekly visits to repair this or that on the Dodge and the Plymouth that preceded them ...
I had driven Chevrolet and Buick and had been spoiled by having only routine Lubrication, Oil and Oil Filter changes until I got my NEW 1971 Volkswagen Super Beetle. Not only did I get a vehicle without the comfort and convenience of a heater and power, but it and the NEW 1972 Volvo needed frequent, expensive maintenance.
My 1971 VW SB caught fire for no apparent reason at Ft Lewis Washington July 3, 1972 at 19,840 miles and there I was 1200 miles from my home in Laramie Wyoming with no transportation for 8 days. I also learned 2 years later that the value of many foreign cars is not very good when we sold it when transferred to Germany in 1973.
I have driven mostly Chevrolet and got my first new one in 1963. No Chevrolet has ever stranded me or needed unscheduled maintenance in the 42 years I owned them...and none ever stranded my father from the time he got one in 1936 until he died in 1991.
Our GC had a leaky head gasket that was repaired under warranty. If it requires any unscheduled maintenance I will feel like you and buy another brand.
Since people I personally know had been stranded by Honda Accords, I was not willing in 1999 to buy an unreliable brand vehicle and walked from our deposit on a 99 Ody LX and got the 99 GC SE instead.
But to suggest that Honda Accords are junk just is INCREDIBLE!
Next to Toyota/Lexus, Honda (all models) blow away anything else on the market. Only a true sucker would look at a DC product, no matter what size rebate they offer. Can't believe there are still folks out there buying these "fine DC products."
I'm a Previa owner (one lamp problem in rear seat area in 9 years and 145,000 miles) looking to get something new. Gee, guess what I've figured to be the best value for my $28K? NOT a DC van, yep an Ody. Seinnas are nice too but just too small for 4 kids in my case. Can't wait for the revised Previa to get here, so Ody it is.
Anyone reading these do yourself a favor and check out the Honda, even at MSRP its value (check out trade in value!!) is a world ahead of any DC pile.
Bruce
Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
As for why anyone would buy a DC product I can tell you my story. I currently own a '95 Cirrus that I have had for over 7 years and it has been extremely reliable. I am planning on purchasing a 2001 Grand Caravan used because I like the styling and features and I can save more than $5000 over a comparably equipped Oddysey. I will use part of the savings to purchase an extended warranty with $0 deductible and not worry about the reliability.
So, you can label me a sucker but I don't have enough money to buy a new van right now and the prices people want for a used Oddysey just crack me up.
Secondly, I don't think the Odyssey is an unreliable car. In fact, despite all of the problems they have had, i would still choose an Odyssey over a DC minivan if reliability was the ONLY factor involved in buying a minivan. But everyone looks for different features in their cars, especially mininvans, and the Honda lacks in some areas that are obviously very important to many people.
What areas could those be? How about comfort, convienience, and luxury. Just sit inside of a new 2001 or 2002 Town & Country Limited and you will get my point. After sitting in a Town & Country the Odyssey interior looks bland and spartan. Features such as heated leather seats with memory, leather/suede interior, power doors and hatch with obstacle detection system, rear split bench seating, powered center console, overhead trip computer, tri zone climate control, more than decent sound system, cd changer, tire pressure monitor, fog lamps, all wheel drive, heated auto mirrors and windshield, and ajustable petals are very important to many customers.
Oh, and I dare not forget one of the most BASIC comfort features offered on ANY car that the Odyssey lacks...PADDED ARMREST. Yes, that's right. PADDED ARMREST. I mean common, I think it's pretty cheap for ANY car maker to put hard plastic armrests on the doors instead of something of a higher and more comfortable quality. Thats just plain CHEAP.
After all, it is true that Chrysler has essentially created a segment within a segment with the Town & Country. No other minivan currently on the market offers these types of features with the luxury content of the Chrysler.
All Chryslers are junk? You Honda fans wish as it would be perfect to keep telling yourself that to keep yourself driving an Odyssey. The old excuse of not buying a Chrysler because it will fall apart is getting old, fast. We have owned two Chrysler minivans, one of which went to 70k miles without any problems. Many Honda owners haven't even driven their vans past 50k. We also have a 2001 PT Cruiser which already has 12k miles and also hasn't had any problems.
Bottom line, the Odyssey isn't for everyone. And that is quite obvious by looking at the sales of DC minivans. The Town & Country alone outsells almost every other van on the market, including the Odyssey. If you want luxury, comfort, and convienence the Town & Country is hard, if not impossible, to beat.
Maybe DC minivans had problems in the past. However, any one who reads in all Town Hall Forums will realize the current DC minivans do not have as many owner reported problems as most other brands.
I am disappointed that the Hosts do not delete the posts in DC minivan forums made by the professional Trolls who get thrills from posting old data about old DC minivans.
When my 99 GC SE had coolant leak, that fact was reported as was the fact the dealer fixed the problem by replacing both head gaskets the next day under warranty with no hassle. If my minivan had been made by another manufacturer, the head gasket replacement would have been called "routine maintenance".
You bring up a good point, I worked at a multi car
franchise and many families owned a foreign and a domestic vehicle. The service mgr. told me when they brought in their domestic car with a problem they would be very upset and carry on, but if they had a problem with their foreign vehicle it was considered a fluke in their minds and they were very low key. It's hard to figure out.
I know that didn't help your situation much, but I personally have never had a problem with a Chrysler van so I wouldnt be much help anyway. Sorry.
-Adam
Next up is paint. This vintage minivan is notorious for peeling paint, especially on the roof and hood. Since the van was moved outside, the peeling has accelerated, and now its starting to rust through the exposed white primer. I took it to Maaco today for an estimate. $227.50 labor to strip the hood and roof (6.5 hrs x $35/hr) then $250 for their "Supreme" paint service which is supposedly half the normal $499. What do you guys think about this price? Anyone had experience with Maaco or other auto painting franchises?
Some NEW tires are "out of round" and can not be balanced.
We got 4 new UniRoyal Tiger Paw AWP for our 91 Astro CL to replace the 4 Tiger Paw Plus that were original equipment. The van had a shake after we got the new tires. I took it back and told them it feels like one tire is defective. They re-balanced the wheels twice before I finally convinced them one of the tires was out of round.
Once the defective NEW tire was replaced, the van rode as smoothly as it did with the original tires.
Looks like we're in the same boat on these old vans; got so much into them (over $3K last year) you hate to give it up. My 19 year old drives mine and I told him he'd better be looking for his own car next summer.
However, I REALLY want one of those new RAM 1500's as our third DC vehicle.
When is it best to get rid of an older vehicle? At what time do repair costs make it unwise to keep the older one operating?
Was stupid to trade 91 Astro on 99 GC as our oldest daughter got a used 91 Astro RS 2 years later and her 91 had 186,000 miles in 2001 whereas our 91 had only 61,000 when traded in 1999.
We have had only 1 problem with our 99 GC. It had a coolant leak at 35,002 miles but dealer replaced both head gaskets the next day under warranty with no hassle, no fuss, etc. A very painless experience. Will probably give it to one of our kids when we decide we want a new one as I hate to see the dealer make $3000 to $5000 on our trade in.
At this point, it's the reliability I'm concerned about more than the cost of repairs. My son is in college 200 miles away so every time he wants to come home, I worry about him getting stranded along the way. Fortunately, he's made 5 or 6 trips since last fall with no problems.
To answer your original question: it depends. I think most cars today will easily go 100K miles without major problems if they've been well maintained. As Indydriver said, it's nice to drive a few years without a car payment. If one had the discipline to continue saving the car payment amount after the payments to the bank ended, one would have a nice down payment saved up when the next purchase came along.
When shopping for another vehicle, look at lease turn-ins. You should be able to find a low mileage (<30K), 2 year old vehicle at a considerable savings over a new one and still have the piece of mind of a year and 6K miles left on the manufacturer's warranty.
http://www.detnews.com/2002/autosinsider/0201/20/a01-394001.htm
Any other symptoms (blown head gasket - oil leak, coolant in oil, etc.)?
Sounds to me the torque convertor could be hanging up. Has the trans ever been serviced ?