Dodge/Plymouth/Chrysler Minivan Problems & Solutions

mr310 · September 2002

I have a 98 grand voyager. Over years, my kids had dropped some small items into driver door. It finally reach a stage that I want to open the door up to clean out everything. I tried to disassemble the door, but could figure out where to start. It seems the door was not hold together with screws, but just pieces slid into each other. Any one has done this before? Really appreciated your advice.

jdaniel64 · September 2002

Any advice on how to reach the back three plugs on a 99 Voyager. The plugs are up against the fire-wall and seem impossible to reach. I have 40,000 miles on this 3.3 engine.

Thanks in advance for the help.

JD

badgerfan · September 2002

I have a '96 Caravan with the 3.3 V-6 and at 60,000 miles have not changed the original plugs. Mine has the platinum plugs that I believe the manual says can go to 90,000 miles before changing. I would tend to believe it myself, if my '90 Taurus was any indication. It had platinum plugs that I changed twice at 40,000 mile intervals, but both times after inspecting the old plugs, I wondered why I bothered. The old plugs looked like new. The gaps never opened, the electrodes were nice and square like new, and the plugs were very clean.

So, as long as your van is running properly, starts fine, doesn't miss, and mileage and acceleration is good, I would run them up to at least 80,000.

They definitely are buried in there. I likely will pay to have someone else change them on this van. "Cab forward", or as I call it "windshield forward" styling overcame serviceability of the back of the engine on these vans.

maw1982 · September 2002

I've owned my '99 GC ES AWD for about a month and have put 900 miles on it. Although the EPA rating is 16/23, I have only averaged 14.5 mpg according to the trip computer with mostly city driving (about 20-25% highway). I had the oiled changed, trans fluid flushed, and air cleaner changed when I bought the vehicle. When I bought this AWD van I thought I was getting the advantages of an SUV while getting better gas mileage than one.

What could be causing this besides the need for a general tune-up (which I will have done ASAP if that would help).

mfahey1 · September 2002

I personally think it is the nature of the beast. We have a 2001 GC ES with the 3.8L and even though it is rated at 18mpg for city use, short trips around town are good for only maybe 15mpg and that is in the summer. Come winter, don't even look because you won't like what you will see.
You might try running some fuel injector cleaner through since you just bought the van and may not know the service history.

backy · September 2002

I have a '99 GCS with the 3.8L and we average around 15 mpg around town too. And that's with FWD. Remember it's a big, heavy vehicle--not much lighter than a SUV. It might come up some when the A/C goes off in the fall. I've found I can get it up closer to 17-18 mpg in the city with no A/C, good driving habits (anticipating stops, smooth startups etc.). I get 25 mpg on the highway, which is above the EPA rating, so overall I'm pleased with the fuel economy.

maw1982 · September 2002

I got the problem fixed. I put a botle of fuel injector cleaner in my tank when I gased up last night. I am now getting 17 mpg in just city driving (I reset the computer today to see what the city economy would be). For anyone interested I used Lucas brand and got it at Advanced Auto Parts for about $3.

raw6560 · September 2002

I have a 2002 Grand Caravan that on several occasions when trying to close the power sliding doors they will reverse just before they are completely shut. I have checked when this has happened to see if something was in the track or blocking the door to cause it to reverse when closing but I could never find anything. When this has happened I have had to manually close the door and then it works fine the next time I try to close it automatically. This has happened to both the power sliding doors on a couple occasions.
Has anyone else experienced this problem? We have taken four long trips this summer in this van and have over 5000 miles on it and really like the van.

mfahey1 · September 2002

I have come to the conclusion that the door system simply has a mind of its own, especially the rear lift gate. Nothing in the manual really tells you much. I know if the doors sense a obstruction, they will reverse and that they can be confused if you are parked on an incline. Other than that, welcome to the club of the confused.

raw6560 · September 2002

Thanks for the reply mfahey1. Sometime when I go back to the dealership where I purchased the van I will ask them. It is not that big of deal since it doesn't happen that often and is better than the sliding door on the Toyota Sienna I use to have. That power door was very dangerous as it was very hard to get it to reverse when anything got in its way.

strokeoluck · September 2002

First of all, to the guy considering buying a used minivan w/20,000 miles for $16k. If you haven't already bought it take a hard look around. I might be unique in this area (Southeast MI...near "Big Three" land) but I recently found Grand Caravans - or whatever they're calling them these days - with about 15,000 miles for $15,500. This was with "standard" options like bench seat, cloth, power windows, am/fm cassette, etc.

Secondly, thanks to everyone who chimed in on the serpentine belt. I will be attempting that fix one of these beautiful fall weekends. Fortunately my next door neighbor is a former Ford dealer mechanic so if I get into trouble I have someone to fall back on (don't like to make a habit of it).

Third, is it a big deal to replace coolant on the van? I took the van in for an oil change recently and the quickie oil change guys showed me that a) our coolant will only be good down to about 5-10 degrees; they pointed out that that's not nearly good enough in our Michigan winters and b) there were "rust chips" in the coolant. He said the rust chips need to be flushed out or they'll cause damage. Of course they wanted $50 to replace the coolant and I told them "no" (I always feel like I'm getting ripped off at these places). I'll check the manual to do this, just curious if anyone had any thoughts on how easy/hard it is and any tips involved.

Thanks again!
- Rob

royallen · September 2002

Rob: This is one level more difficult than an oil change, however, it saves more money. I've had two CC vehicles that I could not get the radiator drain valve to open. Since it is plastic I was a bit careful for fear it would break. Location should be bottom right side of radiator. The lower radiator hose can be unclamped as an alternative. You need a big pail if you unclamp the radiator hose as the flow will be in more than one direction. (Be sure to buy the replacement coolant from an outlet that accepts the old stuff back) Now that will drain about half the system capacity, so to duplicate the flush and fill, you'll need to buy a fitting for one of the heater hoses to flush. I personally do not do this, but just drain and refill half on a once a year schedule which will match the average coolant quality of an every three year flush and fill. Since you have a question of contamination you could drain and fill with water, drive 15 or 20 minutes, let it cool then drain and add undiluted antifreeze to restore to a 50:50 mix and get a $4 antifreeze tester to see if you have a low enough temperature.

mfahey1 · September 2002

I also use distilled water rather than tap water so as not to add minerals into the system that may precipitate out somewhere where you don't want them.
Also, be sure to not mix and match coolant types which is supposed to be a no-no.

pluto5 · September 2002

Don't mess with the drain cock on radiator, they break easily. I flush the recovery tank with clean water and brush it out (much easier than removing) and remove the lower radiator hose and radiator cap to drain as much coolant as possible. Then reattach the lower hose and fill the system with plain water and drive it (with heater on) to reach operating temp. Then let it cool about two hours and pull the lower hose again and drain as much as you can. At this point the recovery tank will probably be empty due to air pockets so you can easily add the 5 qts. of antifreeze to the system or whatever it calls for. Actually easier than it sounds. This procedure is not as good as a system flush but better than just replacing half the coolant. The thermostat is fairly easy to replace if you want to do a system flush. If you are going to replace heater hoses you'll need some specially molded pieces to make the sharp turns at the firewall.

bschick · September 2002

I have a '99 4 cylinder Dodge Caravan. The A/C works fine except for the recirculate button. When you push the button, you hear the louder sound like the air flow has been redirected, but no air comes out of the vents. Any experience with this?

rdennie · September 2002

Bought a new 2001 GC in March of '01. Since then have had the rack replaced, steering column replaced, rear shock replaced, front door speakers replaced, front driver's pwr window switch replaced, excessive wear on front tires, re programmed vehicle multiple times for door problems and now the ABS light stays on (fluid level is full). I have 23k miles on this van but am afraid to have my family in it not knowing if it will make the next mile before if falls apart. We have had this in the shop at least 12 times over the last year. Anyone else having these types or numbers of problems? Am I stuck with a lemon? or is the GC just a pice of junk?

steeleng · September 2002

It sounds like you got a real lemon. They must have made yours from parts out of the reject bin. I have a 2001 GC and it does not have any of those problems. Of course mine only has 16000 miles on it but I really doubt that mileage is the cause for the problems on your van. Good luck getting it all taken care of and remember to keep a good paper trail in case you ever choose to use the lemon law.

fant16 · September 2002

I have a hard-to-describe noise coming from the right (passenger) side of the front end. The sound is a low-pitched creak/groan/squeak. The sound is very prevalent when turning right and less prevalent when going over bumps. The sound only comes from the Right front. I have had the front struts changed. What sound I suspect next? Sway bar links? CV joint?

There is TSB on this problem, but I can't details on the TSB.

Anyone else have a similar problem? All advice will be appreciated.

pmacey · September 2002

About 1 month ago, Mavis did the brakes on our 1998 Voyager (14 inch wheels/No ABS/SWB Van)

They installed pre-packed calipars with disks and new rotors for the front.

Just this past w/e, we have brake fade.

Touch the brakes, good pressure, stay on the brakes, the pedal almost has to go to the floor to stop. Some action on rolling stops, initally plenty of stopping power, then it fades.

Is this something Mavis should fix for free or do we have some sort of booster problem or pressure leak?

If something wrong that Mavis didn't cause with their recent maintenance, what sort of money am I looking at, for a fix?

BTW, we have plenty of brake fluid, is there something else I can check/fix as a quick resolution?

Thanks in advance!

pnh21 · September 2002

It sounds like you have a leaking brake master cylinder.

mfahey1 · September 2002

Based on my own experience, I don't believe the problem is CV joint related because they usually click or pop. The sway bar bushings are static when going around corners so I wouldn't think that they are involved although if the noise was only there when going over a bump, then I would say they are a possibility. Eliminating those two things, that would lead me to the rack and pinion assembly.

fant16 · September 2002

I can also reproduce this sound by rocking the passenger's side front fender up and down (I'm a big guy and it takes a lot of force).

indept · September 2002

I own a 2001 GC ex 3.8L with the passenger power door & power tailgate. Once, my wife was dropping our daughter off at a friends house, the door opened using the overhead console switch but when she hit the switch to close it the door came to within a few inches of closing then opened. This happened a few times, then her friends father tried closing it manually and it wouldn't close. After a few tries it finally closed manually. the next day I checked it and it worked both automatically and manually, BUT just in case, I looked inside the lower door track. At first I didn't see anything so I reached in to feel around & found a pen which was the same color as the van which made it hard to see, guess the door did it's job.

Then on July 4th I tried to open the back hatch with the key fob & the door made a buzzing sound but wouldn't open. I repeated this several times with the same result, so I tried the overhead console switch and got the same result. Then I unlocked the hatch with the key & tried opening it manually using the door release above the license plate & it still wouldn't open. Finally after a unlocking it & trying again with no luck, I put the key in the lock & while holding the key "turned" in the unlock position, I hit the manual release & it opened. I then put something in the back, which was the whole reason to start with & closed it manually. I then drove a few blocks & tried the overhead console again but it still didn't work. I got out & the hatched opened manually. I closed it manually, then went home & tried the console & the fob & the door worked just fine & has ever since. I thought it might have been the 95 deg temps that day but it has worked ever since including days around 100 deg.

Oh, & for the record, It has 18000 miles on it , runs great, plenty of power, great ride & very quiet even on the highway.
Last January while visiting relatives we were on the highway in Virginia wher the speed limit is 70 mph. I was keeping up with a small group of cars, happened to glance a the speedometer & found I was doing 98 mph. From the sound & feel, I thoght I was going the speed limit. I checked my mileage ( from New Jersey To Atlanta Georgia, about 850 miles total) and averaging 70 + mph I got 24 mpg. So far my wife & I love this van. Hope I can still claim that 100000+ miles from now.

mfahey1 · October 2002

Welcome to the "We're totally confused by the power doors" club or is it "They really do have a mind of their own" club.
It wouldn't be so bad if the owner's manual at least gave you a hint as to what is going on. I know there are some type of sensors along the vertical pillars for the liftgate that prevent closing on objects but the failure to be able to open the thing is truly baffling.

pmacey · October 2002

Ok, any quick checks a 'saturday' mechanic (aka: me) could look at, to verify we may indeed have a brake master cylinder problem?

Leaks, loose connections, etc?

Any quick fixes or will this require another visit to Mavis?

Thanks!

indept · October 2002

The fact that you still have a lot of fluid indicates a bad master cylinder. Look under the car around the brakes, both front & rear & look for wetness, an obvious sign of a leak.

Also, with the car running, put push down on the pedal til it stops, then pump the brakes a few times ( 3-6 times) & then hold pressure again. The pedal should gain some height. continue to hold pressure, If the pedal fades to the original low height then it's most likely the master cylinder. If it stay significantly higher (maybe fading slightly) then you may just have air in the lines & the brakes need to be bled, which Mavis should do for free because changing any part of the hydraulic system requires bleeding the air out & if not done correctly, will cause fade. The reason pumping helps is that fluid does not compress but air will & pushing the brake down causes any air in the lines to compress causing a lower pedal. pumping the brakes draws more fluid from the master cylinder resivoir which takes up the space the compressed air made. once you let off the brake, the air forces the fluid back into the resivoir so the next time you hit the brakes, they fade unless pumped.

If after pumping, the brakes fade to the same spot, what happening is the fluid is leaking past the seals in the master cylinder allowing the fluid to go back to the resivoir. master cylinders are dual systems, meaning there are two seals on the piston in the master cylinder, one controls the front brakes the other the back. so if you are losing pressure on the front, you will still have back brakes & vise versa. This unequal pressure should cause the brake light to come on.

strokeoluck · October 2002

I have a '96 Plymouth Grand Voyager. I'd like to clean or possibly replace the air filter. When I looked into the engine to do this I noticed a large (10"x10"?) black plastic "box" right behind the radiator cap. The box said something to the effect of "remove this cover to access air filter". I unscrewed two bolts that were holding the plastic box to the frame. The only thing that allowed me to do was to somewhat move the entire box BUT the top of the box (there does appear to be a top and bottom that should somehow separate) doesn't seem to want to come loose from the bottom.

Should I just torque the heck out of these two pieces with a screwdriver until they come apart? Am I even looking in the right spot (I'm 99% sure I am)? I feel like I'm missing something obvious, can someone educate this Plymouth dunce?

Thanks,
Rob

pnh21 · October 2002

The air filter is located in another box lower than that one that you removed. If you follow that air tube down on the driver side you will see another box and air filter is in there. I replaced mine with K & N filter, and according to K & N website, they last for hundreds of thousand miles, since I do not plan on replacing or checking it often. I also removed that restrictor tube that is in that first box that you removed. It is supposed to act as sound deadening device but I look at it as another air restriction. More air to the motor means more power, may only be a fraction of power but I will take it anytime.

hayneldan · October 2002

OK, but it's not easy!
1. Remove the two bolts that hold the resonator (black box) to the radiator support. 2.Loosen the screw that holds the large rubber tube that goes to the throttle body. the one closest to the firewall. 3.Loosen the screw that holds the large lower rubber tube under the black box, the one just in front of the second black box that is almost under the radiator. 4. Remove both large rubber tubes and the small hose that leads to the valve cover. The top black box should then be free to be removed. 5.The second black box under the battery contains the air filter mounted vertically. Unsnap 2 steel clips (on one side)that hold the front of the second black box to the back. There are two tabs on the front part of the front part opposite of the steel clips. Once the steel clips are removed and the front part is rotated slightly from the clip side out, the front can be removed. You should now see the air filter. Pleats on the air filter go on the inside, screen on the outside. Sounds more complicated than it is. Post how it went.

fant16 · October 2002

What causes oil in get into the air filter? Is this just a bad PCV valve or something worse? What should I replace other than the PCV valve?

Thanks

tomtomtom · October 2002

You could check the rubber strip next to the window to see if it's bent outward or mis-aligned. If so, it would prevent the door to shut using the power button (the mechanism thinks there is a finger in between).

commonroom · October 2002

We've had a peculiar problem with our 98 Dodge Grand Caravan --- twice.
Here goes:
* I get in to the van
* It's in Park and the foot brake is engaged
* I turn the key, and ----- the van starts rolling backwards (both times we were parked on an incline)
* I press the brakes ----- the van keeps rolling backwards.
* I try shifting to Drive or Reverese ------ doesn't shift and the van continues to roll backwards.
* Both occasions, the van comes to a stop because it comes to rest against something

Has this happened to any one else with a Dodge Grand Caravan ?

steeleng · October 2002

That is a really odd problem. The only way that I can see that the van would roll backward while in park would be if the pawl(I think that is the correct term) in the transmission was broken. This is a metal piece that locks the drivetrain when the vehicle is placed in park. However, if it were broken the van would roll anytime it was parked on an incline unless the parking brake was on. Did you happen to release the parking brake during the procedure that you mentioned above? If you did and the pawl was broken I could see that scenario. It can be very difficult to stop a large vehicle equipped with power brakes if the vechile is not running. Shifting to drive or reverse would not help. The best things to do would be to 1)place both feet hard on the brake pedal; 2)engage the parking brake; 3)with the transmission in park, start the vehicle so that the power booster will engage and the brakes can stop the van.

I hope that helps but I would have a competent mechanic check this vehicle and test it on a safe incline to figure out what the problem is for sure.

pmacey · October 2002

Hi indept:

Thanks for the feedback on this.

I was finally able to get the van away from my wife long enough to try your test.

There is still the same level of brake fluid and there are no oil/fluid leaks showing up under the van.

After stepping on the brake pedal till it stopped, I then pumped the pedal and kept pressure on it.

Every time, it kept pressure or faded just a little bit.

Seems like air in the system.

Is Mavis suppose to bleed the brakes after installing loaded calipers and rotors?

Thanks in advance.

strokeoluck · October 2002

Thanks for the tips on the air filter. Re: the K&N filter...you can leave a filter in a vehicle for "hundreds of thousands of miles" without cleaning it?

I've now got the following planned for my van and Taurus: front brake pads, sway bar links, radiator flush and air filter. I can't wait to tackle this stuff over the coming few weekends.

Thanks for the help guys,
Rob

indept · October 2002

Yes they should have bled the brake system. They should re-bleed them for free, don't let them charge you since you just paid for the service. Don't let them try to say something else is bad. There may be another bad part, but make them bleed the system first and see if that corrects it. If they try to charge you for it or for topping off the brake fluid afterwards, ask them where to send your bill for the extra time you spent dealing with their shoddy work, not to mention giving the car back to you like that in the first place. You or your wife could have had a serious accident because of that. the final part of any service (outside of an oil change or other minor service) is ALWAYS to test drive the vehicle to check for proper operation of the repaired system. Anytime I do brake work, especially when I had to bleed the brakes, I test drive it then after the drive I try to pump up the brakes. If it is done properly, the pedal shouldn't pump up any higher or fade.

good luck.

strokeoluck · October 2002

Well, I din't QUITE get done what I thought I would this weekend. The brakes on the '96 Grand Voyager were not a problem (...well, more about that in a bit) but the sway bar links!!! Oh my goodness. It was like someone sprayed lok-tite (sp?) on the nuts/bolts. And on top of that you have about 1" of room to work a wrench near the bottom bolt. Every time my wife walked by and saw my head parked in the wheel well, with awful words coming out, she said "are you still glad you didn't take this in to the shop!?!?". I quickly asked her to stay out of the garage, I on the other hand was out there for four hours messing around w/those links. I even had to get the propane torch out to heat up both bolts on the bottom of each link. Fun, fun, fun. Needless to say I didn't get to checking the air filter or replacing the rotors on my Taurus.

I do need some input on the brakes. I replaced them just fine. In fact my neighbor - the Ford mechanic - replaced the first set for me and I did the second one on my own. I then started the van up, pumped the brakes and took it for a test drive. Everything seemed fine. But today I noticed that when I applied the brakes the wheel wobbled/shaked quite a bit - and this only happened when I hit the brakes. If we were going less than 20-25 it wouldn't be so bad. But when we stopped from 45+ it was very noticeable. They didn't make any sound and the van didn't pull - and the brakes WORK great...they just shake the wheel. Any thoughts on what I might have screwed up?

Thanks,
Rob

stever · October 2002

Did you change the front rotors or take them somewhere for turning? Did you burnish in the new pads as recommended (usually some variation of hard/firm stops from different speeds)?

Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

pmacey · October 2002

I called Mavis to set up a appointment for them to check the brakes.

They claim they don't bleed the brake system when changing out rotors and installing packed calipers.

Now the brakes are smoking after heavy to moderate use...I believe this does not indicate air in the system or does it: having to stand harder on the brakes to get them to work, hence the pads are scorching the rotors?

coolwhite_we · October 2002

Changing the calipers requires bleeding the brake system on all four wheels. This is a must, no exceptions. Changing the calipers introduces air into the lines that must be removed. A little air will cause mushy or soft pedal. More air and complete brake failure will result. Also depending on the age of the current fluid it should be replaced. I would recommend replacement every four years.

steeleng · October 2002

It sounds like you have warped rotors and putting new pads on accentuated the problem. One time I knew I had warped rotors and I needed new pads so I got the new pads and had the rotors turned. On one of the rotors they were not able to fully remove the warpage while keeping rotor thickness within specifications but I figured that since they got most of it I would be okay to put the rotor back on. Bad idea! Even with most of the warpage removed, the new pads accentuated the problem to the point that it was many times worse than before the repair. Needless to say I replaced that rotor and I now replace rotors whenever they feel warped. They just don't put enough material in them to do more than remove minor grooves.

steeleng · October 2002

I cannot believe that Mavis claims not to bleed brakes after installing new calipers. Brake systems should be bled anytime the system is opened. I have heard all sorts of techniques to help avoid air infiltration when putting in new parts but most are questionable at best. I always bleed the brake system in situations like this and a shop like Mavis can do it a lot faster than I can.

indept · October 2002

I agree with steeleng, anytime you open the hydraulic system you MUST bleed the the system. If Mavis is telling you that then that can only mean 1 thing, YOU SHOULDN"T BE GOING TO MAVIS, THEY"RE IDIOTS WITH TOOLS!!!!!. And as far as the breaks smoking, either something is getting on them to cause smoke or one of the new calipers is seizing up. If mavis keeps handing you the same crap, go to another mechanic, get them to check it, document everything Mavis messed up or forgot to do & go after them. Hopefully you put the bill on a credit card so you can argue the bill instead of trying to get mavis to refund you.

strokeoluck · October 2002

Hmmm, I must admit I feel a bit odd asking someone to turn my rotors - or worse yet paying for new ones - when there was absolutely nothing wrong w/them to begin with. Essentially all I did by putting new pads on was decrease the space between the pad and the rotor - right? I don't see how that could magnify anything...but then again I'm not a mechanic.

I did notice that the new brake pads had noticeable wavy ridges on them. Almost like something imprinted on them from the casting or mold. But I'm assuming this is standard on most pads and it wears off quickly? And if that's the case I'm assuming (again) that millions of people who get their brakes replaced aren't driving around for the first several months with shaky wheels.

Any other thoughts from the peanut gallery?

Thanks in advance,
Rob

stever · October 2002

I'm not a wrench turner either, but it's a pretty common practice to either turn or replace the rotors when you replace the pads (depending on how many miles have elapsed between pad changes I suppose).

Some people with known warped rotors will go ahead and put new brake pads on their car figuring the new pads will wear in to match the warp. I think these people plan to sell their cars in a month or two too :-)

Do a search on "brake" in the box on the left sidebar if you want to read the other brake discussions while waiting for responses from folks who are mechanics (many are archived but may help anyway).

That's my .02 peanuts.

Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

pmacey · October 2002

Mavis has the van, the first thing they did was to bleed the brake system (seems they are starting off ok)

The called and said they are getting no pressure at all...no air, no fluid, unless they pump the brakes for 10 minutes or something like that.

(BTW, now they claim they do bleed the brakes when replacing calipers and that it doesn't show up as a charge because it is part of the service)

They claim the fluid looks to be contaminated based on the fact that the ruber seal on the cap of the fluid container is swollen and the fluid is over filled (I didn't do it)

When they bleed the brakes, fluid comes out right? Which has to go back in?

Is it possible when they put the fluid in, it somehow got contaminated?

What they are now doing (and they claim at no cost to me) is to swap in a 'test' master cylinder and see if they still have no pressure.

Does this also involve using new brake fluid or adding more fluid?

Surely if they think the existing fluid is bad, they shouldn't but it back in.

Re: cost, they site $228 for a NEW master cylinder
(seems high, probably more like $190) and $60 a hour for labor, with maybe 1 to 1 1/2 hours of labor, so we are talking $288 for a 1 hour job (not to mention fluid)

At this point, pending the master cylinder swap and what they say, I have two issues:

1)their first claim of not bleeding the brakes, and now they say they do, though it is not a line item charged on the invoice

2)The possibility they contaminated the fluid if they did indeed bleed the brakes.

I'm thinking of having them install the old cylinder back and take it someplace else. Thoughts on how or if I can do this without being charged anything for the diagnose/work already performed? (they did tell me swapping in a test MC would be no charge)

BTW, local garage will do the same work for $270 (folks I trust). I only went back to Mavis thinking the problem would be covered under warranty from previous work.

Thanks...

indept · October 2002

I've never heard of Mavis, I'm from the Phila Pa area, but they DO have to add fluid after a brake bleeding so
Questions / comments:
1. If the fluid is contaminated, why didn't they note the swollen master cylinder cap gasket when they did the initial work?
2. If the contamination ruined the master cylinder, then the NEW calipers & the rear wheel cylinders / calipers (depending on whether you have rear disc or drum brakes) are damaged too since they have the same type rubber in them.
3. The low pedal & smoking problem didn't happen until after these Einsteins worked on your van, so if no-one else added fluid, it MUST have been them.
4. You said the brakes were smoking, how long after they gave it back did it do that?
one of the characteristics of brake fluid is a very high boiling point so as the brakes get hot (very hot, if you ever touched the rotor just after driving for a while) the fluid doesn't boil to a vapor causing the same problem as air in the lines. If it swelled the lid seal on the master cylinder, it probably swelled the seal on the calipers or wheel cylinders causing them to seep fluid onto the brakes causing the smoke.
5. Did the brakes fade down right after they initially did the first work or did it take a day or so?
6. what was the original reason for taking it to them, faded pedal, brake squealing, or just general maintainance?

It wouldn't take long for contaminated fluid to cause a problem, so if it wasn't them you would have had problems long before you initially went to them.
Even if they seem to correct the problem, take it to your other mechanic & let him check the entire system. And yes, if they try to get you for a master cylinder, make them put your old one on & let the REAL mechanic do the work. Tell him everything they did & said and make sure he checks both front & rear brakes (all four wheels too not just 1 front & 1 back) for leaking or any other seepage.

Print this out & show it to him, I'm sure he'll agree with my assessment. Good luck.

pmacey · October 2002

Mavis is a large Discount Tire store in the NY area, kind of like a Goodyear, PepBoys, UnderCare, Firestone, etc, type of shop.

To answer your questions indept:

1)If the fluid is contaminated, why didn't they note the swollen master cylinder cap gasket when they did the initial work?

***at first they claimed they didn't bleed the brakes, so they probably didn't look at the cap gasket, or did bleed the breaks and now realize they may have contaminated the brake fluid somehow

2. If the contamination ruined the master cylinder, then the NEW calipers & the rear wheel cylinders / calipers (depending on whether you have rear disc or drum brakes) are damaged too since they have the same type rubber in them.

***We have rear drums and this is a point I will have to bring up with them. This morning they initally claimed the front calipers they installed are still good, but now I could have problems down the road

3. The low pedal & smoking problem didn't happen until after these Einsteins worked on your van, so if no-one else added fluid, it MUST have been them

***I'd have to agree

4. You said the brakes were smoking, how long after they gave it back did it do that?

***This is my wife's van but she thought it started to happen within 1 week after Mavis worked on it. I noticed it slightly the next day plus a burning smell, but Mavis said I should expect that...why?

5. Did the brakes fade down right after they initially did the first work or did it take a day or so?

***My wife says within 1 week

6. what was the original reason for taking it to them, faded pedal, brake squealing, or just general maintainance?

***Brake squealing. According to Mavis the calipers were shot and schorched the rotors

I'm still waiting for Mavis to callback.

Sounds like I should tell them to put the original Master Cylinder back on and do nothing else unless they want to do the work under warranty...if not, wonder how much they will try to charge me for this morning's diagnose and Master Cylinder swap?

Will provide a update.

Thanks for your help and advice.

tomtomtom · October 2002

pmacey · October 2002

First, indeed do mean MAVIS and not MIDAS.

Bottom line, after talking to the Service Mgr and Store Owner, they agree about our point that the problem didn't start till after their first service. (and were quite amicable about the whole issue and dealing with me)

The fix was replacing the Master Cylinder that had internal leaks. They still point to contaminated fluid as the most likely cause and possibly a pre-existing condition in the Master Cylinder that wasn't fully explored the first time when we had obvious brake pad/caliper/rotor issues.

I stressed my opinion that they somehow contaminated the fluid when they bled the brakes on the first service (they did apolgize for the confusion re: them first saying they didn't bleed the brakes) and I was shown their 'opperation' and supplies involved on replacing brake fluid.

We settled on a cost satisfactory to all parties, somwheres between warranty (free) and their cost for the Master Cylinder, no charge for the installation labor, bleeding/flushing the whole brake system, and fluid used.

Front and rear brakes were checked out, all show no further problems.

They have extended my warranty to the whole brake system should anything fail due to left over contaminated brake fluid or residue of same.

At this point, I consider the matter closed

Thanks for all your help guys!

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