Pontiac Grand Prix - 2000-2005

phrosted · March 2003

That really, really sucks. Pontiac was supposed to offer interior color choices, does the black cloth have that 2-tone? Hope not...

dindak · March 2003

Is there a 04 GP brochure available yet?

vcjumper · March 2003

Pattern does seem pretty silly/reminds me of a Neon. Is leather standard on the GTP model?

I can just see all the GTP quarter mile racers that this car attracts racing down the track with their funky coloured seats.

richm4 · March 2003

I agree with you on those cloth seats. UGLY!

orwoody · March 2003

I'm not ragging on Pontiac here as my past 4/5 Pontiacs(except the 82 Firebird) have been very good to me) but I got a bit put off by some things they did on the 2004 GP/GTP so I'm waiting.
As for colors - Remember up to 5/6 years ago you could get a large selection of color choices interior and exterior.(my 96 Bonneville with Teal/Teal leather was the most beautiful car I've ever owned.) Then Pontiac cut choices way down on some models... in fact I think in 2000 or there abouts the only leather color you could get in a GP was charcoal. It is one way to save $$. The only choices I saw for 2004 were charcoal and parchment. Add to that the cheap looking PW/PDL toggles, pull bar, steering wheel and those ugly 10 spoke wheels. Knowing there will be few if any incentives on the 2004 led me to decide on getting a 2003(which I got for ~$8k less than MSRP) and wait to see how the 2004 GTP pans out.
Johnc - I drove the Mazda6s and liked it, especially the interior; but Mazda has funny option combos, low/no incentives and it's smaller inside.
dindak - I got a brochure at the PDX Auto Show 1st of Feb, dealers should have some.
VCJ - I agree on the cloth pattern

damn long day at work, must be testy!!

FYI - I do some international travel with my job. Funny - the various mfrs tailor models, options and quality level to the particular markets:
- Quality of fit/finish is much better on Toyotas., Hondas, BMWs, Fords and GMs offered in places like Singapore, Japan, Hong Kong...
- Ever see a Toyota Corolla with real wood trim? It's offered in Singapore!
- Distance sensors are options on most cars sold in places like Singaporee, Japan... only see them on Luxo models here!
Granted many of these countries control the availability snd cost of autos in those countries, but based on what I've seen even the Japanese car companies have bought in to the fact that Americans(and some other conutries) will accept lower quality than some other cultures...

regfootball · March 2003

they had an interactive display at the autoshow here where you could simulate the HUD and TAPshift. So they had partial new GP interiors set up (cockpits) with the dash and center console.

I don't see how they claim Pontiac has actually improved on the plastics front. Same old same old from what I can tell.

dindak · March 2003

I got a 2 page brochure at the Toronto show last month, but is the full 8-12 page retail one available yet?

dindak · March 2003

Better get some new glasses.

oldsman01 · March 2003

The Mazda 6 isn't a bad alternatice, but don't worry about your business associates not taking your car seriously. I could care less what mine think of my car. And if you get the GTP model, just pull up alongside them at a stop and 1/4 mile down the road see who is taking the car seriously. That is unless they drive an M3 or something, in which case they aren't going to take a Poncho seriously no matter how rich the interior materials are. I do agree that from the pics the cloth seats look cheap. But the leather upgrade is very reasonably priced and includes heated seats. After having two cars with leather seats(one with heated) I typically want them in a car now.

johnclineii · March 2003

I am not concerned about being taken seriously, I am concerned whether the realtor and lawyer would be able to WALK after getting out of that back seat on a long trip. Or whether there is even enough headroom.

And I do want to be seen as an adult.

As to leather, I am a noise freak extraordinaire. And cloth equipped cars are much quieter. I have had one car with leather. Never, ever again.

graphicguy · March 2003

I saw and sat in the '04 GP at the Detroit International Auto Show. Very nice piece, very upscale compared to...well...just about anything in it's price class.

I had the GenII 3.8L blown engine. The GenIII should be even better still.

I'm 6' tall and the back seat wasn't an issue for me.

The only thing I'm still not sure about is the rear end. The jury is still out on the rear design All-in-all, it looks as good, or better than what's currently out there as a sports sedan in the $25K-$30K range.

02lssport · March 2003

"And I do want to be seen as an adult."

Then if I were you I would not think about the somewhat "boy-racer" inspired Mazda6 or Altima.

richm4 · March 2003

The 2004 finally showed up at my local dealers today. I drove a GT2 and a GTP/Comp-G and here a my impressions:

1. Cloth seats screamed "cheap". The multi-colored fabric inserts didn't seem as bad as I originally thought, but the texture of the fabrics seemed Hyundai-like.

2. Leather seats were as nice and comfy as Cadillac leather. A HUGE upgrade over the old design.

3. Gauge lighting looked very nice.

4. Monsoon radio sounded great.

5. Rear seat is VERY low. I don't really care since I don't have kids, nor do I often transport people in the rear. But I am only 5'6" with my knees awkwardly positioned, and I could imagine how a 6-footer would feel.

6. Comp-G suspension was rough, but not as rough as I had imagined after reading some earlier posts.

7. GT2 suspension was smooth. Much more so than the old design.

Overall, I am strongly considering it along with the Accord. The Accord interior is nicer, but the GP is sportier, plus I can use my GM Card Rebate with GMS pricing.

montanafan · March 2003

Which color cloth was in the car you drove? I can't tell from the brochure pictures which might be less offensive, the dark with red spots or the light where the pattern would be more visable. I think the interior cloth is one of the reasons the Sunfire sales are off this year. Thanks for your report, still none in our area, but maybe this weekend.

oldsman01 · March 2003

While I haven't seen one in person, from the pics I've seen the new GP does have a much more upscale interior(except for the cloth seats). My only complaint is that Pontiac doesn't seem to even offer an automatic climate control on the new GP. Folks, you can get this feature on a Honda Accord these days so I think Pontiac should reconsider. Although you can't get a (factory) supercharged V6 on the Accord so I guess they equal out:) Other than that ommission, the GP seems to offer alot of features for the money.

oldsman01 · March 2003

While GM seems to be using the cheapest looking cloth these day, I've noticed this problem on other brands as well. A co-worker of mine has a 91 Camry LE which has cloth seats and when I rode in that car I noticed the cloth was very plush. Much nicer than the mouse fur in today's Camrys. When I looked at the Mazda 6, I looked at one which had cloth and was not impressed. Even luxury cars(what few still offer it) don't have the plush cloth that they used to have years ago. And while I know it's no excuse as there are some who simply don't want leather, but for me after owning several cars with leather, I would not want to go back to cloth seats.

richm4 · March 2003

Montanafan,

The cloth seats were gray while the inserts were gray and white (I think). The cloth colors looked fine to me, it's just that the fabric texture seemed very low quality. If it wasn't for the texture, I would order the cloth. The cloth on my 98 GP is much nicer.

Anyway, I was very impressed with the leather seats.

rayainsw · March 2003

I apologize for not posting that it was going to be happening  but my excuse is that the person I pre-registered with at the Pontiac toll free number told me that an information packet would be sent and would arrive well before the event. So  I was going to post information once I received that  so that others in this area could attend if they wanted. When I checked my calendar for tomorrow - there it is. And still no information packet.

Anyway - I expect to (at least I'll try to) check this site before I leave for the evenet tomorrow AM. So: any specific issues I can check for anyone - poste here?

- Ray
Owned a '97 GTP w/Thrasher pulley and Magnaflows . . .

orwoody · March 2003

Here is a recent article on the 2004 GTP

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=5833&n=157,- 180&sid=180

richm4 · March 2003

I am somewhat disappointed in the look of the 2004 GTP rims - they are thin-spoked and curved. I love the Comp-G rims and also like the optional chrome GT2 rims. The salesman said that the cost would be very high (~ $400 per rim) to purchase the Comp-G rims and have them installed on a GTP without Comp-G.

The reason I wouldn't get the Comp-G is because it rides too rough.

I'd like to get the supercharged GTP, but may settle for the GT2 to get the rims I like (while also saving some cash).

Has anyone else had experience with getting dealers to switch rims on GM products? In reading the Accord group posts, it seems like dealers do this sort of thing all the time.

For those who may not have like the look of the car from seeing pictures, the car looks much much better in person.

orwoody · March 2003

Most folks I've talked to(and myself included) don't really care for the 10 spoke machined wheels that come with the Comp G package. That being the case, I'm betting a lot of buyers would like to swap the comp G for GT2 wheels or the optional chrome 5 spoke. That said, the dealer(any smart dealer) would have customers wanting to swap the wheels from a GT2 to a Comp G car and get you what you wanted for little or no upcharge. Part of the dealer's issue may be that the GT2 has 16" rims and the Comp G comes with 17" and higher speed rated tires. For that price you should consider stopping by an independent tire-wheel shop and price after market wheels.
I'm waiting to take a test drive of the 2004 and see how it compares to my 2003 GT and also the 2000 GTP I had. Some of the design choices and lack of interior color choices have turned me off of getting one this year. I'm willing to wait since I got such a scream of a deal on my 2003. (no incentives on the 2004)

dindak · March 2003

http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat- _code=reviews&loc_code=index&content_code=08190438

rayainsw · March 2003

I attended a GP drive event held yesterday morning at the Atlanta Motor Speedway. Again, I apologize for not posting that it was going to be happening  but my excuse is that the person I pre-registered with at the Pontiac toll free number told me that an information packet would be sent and would arrive well before the event. So  I was going to post information once I received that  so that others in this area could attend if they wanted. And  as of yesterdays mail, it still has not come ?????

Anyway  on to the car. They had 1 car to display and Craig Singhaus (of Motorweek) gave a marketing pitch. I was able to crawl in and around it for a while.

Then on to the 4 cars and a low speed handling course. I believe that these were all early production cars  as opposed to specially assembled one. All were GTPs with the Comp. Group / WS6, moonroof, and leather.

We were allowed 3 circuits  there was no place to exceed maybe 40 mph without mowing down a BUNCH of cones. I chose not do risk that. We had to wear helmets  affecting the ability to judge NVH.

So -

Power  Good power at these low speeds. Very smooth. Very easy to smoke the front tires at launch  over half those I observed driving did so  some quite dramatically, given the tight course. (This is with the standard traction control on - interesting.) Further, I expect that the 3.29 final drive comes into effect here. I believe this may lead to variation in published 0-60 and SS ¼ mile times depending on the level of expertise of the driver in launching high torque FWD automobiles . . . The Motorweek road test (update of the preview that aired a while ago) quoted the GM 0-60 time of 6.5 seconds, but made no mention of further performance numbers  no quarter mile time / speed.

[Possible S/C pulley swap? Looks like the same basic set-up as 97  03. Meaning a quick, easy, cheap 20  30 hp increase will likely be available for those willing to risk possible drivetrain warrantee issues.)

Trans.  As has been confirmed, the TAP paddles upshifts by pressing either paddle forward. In (M) manual mode, you can start in either 1st or 2nd gear? Smooth shifts. TAP paddle positions swung beyond the noon / 6 positions in this tight course  and they were in motion during much of the run. Thus, I will need more seat time to judge some aspects of their use. [Sadly, the GP is not a Grand Prix car  where full lock is typically not much more than 90 degrees!] The fact that the TAP allows a forced upshift at WOT at less than red line is a plus compared to BMWs Steptronic, for instance.

Ride  no real opportunity to judge  see below under noise.

Handling  Overall: Responsive. Rotates well. 225/55 BF Goodridge Comp T/As howled under high load  but hard to tell how they would sound under normal (umm . . ) brisk street driving. Again, further, real world test drives will certainly be required.

Steering  Again: responsive. Good feel, given conditions.

Interior 

Overall, the interior impressed me with a good overall presentation, logical and clear control and display placement, excellent legibility, and very good quality of materials. The climate control offers flexibility  2 intermediate positions on the rotary knob between each of the 5 primary / main Mode settings  for fine tuning. A good design.

DIC: much improved in display and flexibility / functionality from the one in my 97. Several personalized settings possible. Trans. temp can be displayed, for instance.

?? 18 HUD functions? I see 17 listed in the Getting to know your 2004 GP guide (from page 12) = Vehicle speed, high beams, turn signals, 8-position compass, secondary PRNDL, outside air temp., TAP up/down gear position & Upshift ISO, Radio station frequency. Single CD: track number, Multiple CD: disc number and track number, Cassette Active, Check trip computer, Cruise Set, Traction Control active, Traction control off, Stability control active, and Stability control off.

Room:

Front seat - fine (though understandably a bit tight with a helmet on).

Rear seat  sitting behind myself (60 and about 225) there was probably only reasonable room for someone 56 and 175. And toe space was very tight, as I typically drive with the seat lowered as far as possible. OTOH, I could probably have adjusted the drivers seat somewhat to provide a bit more room, if necessary. And again, all cars I examined had the optional moonroof and a possible impact on headroom. The fold flat forward passenger front seat, that produces a sort of desk  including the mesh / netting found on the seat back as a mechinism to hold the things I often just toss into the passenger seat, is quite an interesting and useful feature.

Comfort 

Front seat excellent  bolsters felt more supportive than in some other cars that look like they ought to be . . .

Rear seat  probably OK for people of, say, 5 6 to 5 9 tall - though a fold down armrest would certainly be useful  and this seems rather an odd omission.

The traction control can be turned off  and so can the Stability system  according to the information I see. But there have been instances (the new G35, for example) where the traction control system cannot actually be completely disabled.

Noise  Again, NVH very hard to judge given course and helmet. No visible or audible problems with the section of the course that including several tacked down tire tread bumps. Structural integrity seemed ok  particularly given the huge hole you can open between the trunk and interior.

Styling  Well, this is clearly VERY subjective, I acknowledge. But now that I have spent a while around several of these new cars, here is my reaction. This is an attractive car. The lager rear spoiler as well as the quad round exhaust tips and the grill inserts available as RPA-s all further enhance the appearance, in my view. The red painted calipers look terrific through the wheel spokes  but may be a cleaning nightmare.

But then, Id probably replace the exhaust with a Borla, Corsa or Magnaflow a.s.a.p. anyway . . .

Conclusions 

It was certainly great fun to toss these cars around with someone else responsible for replacing the tires! BTW: I checked 2 of the front left tires (clockwise circuit) for wear  and they looked to be holding up rather well to the abuse.

The new GP is clearly a large step forward. Though Id love to see 300 + HP and TQ, a six speed trans. and AWD, I suppose that is not likely now anytime soon. They have addressed several of the reasons that I did not buy a new GP when the time came to trade my 97 GTP. I will drive one or 2 when the time comes to trade.

If anyone has further questions, post and Ill try to answer  but it also sounds like new GPs are hitting some dealers.

Enjoy, all!
- Ray
Who probably made a mistake by taking a ride in a NASCAR stocker at over 165 mph

richm4 · March 2003

As orwoody alluded to, swapping stock GTP rims for the Comp-G rims would appeal to me. If I decide to get the Grand Prix, I'll probably have to order it (and wait 8 weeks) to take advantage of GMS pricing that's available to me.

Out of curiosity, is there anyone in the Chicago area who is getting the 2004 GTP-Comp-G in the next couple of months and would be intested in swapping their Comp-G rims for my 5 spoke GTP rims?

dindak · March 2003

Went to the local lot and they had 1 base GT on the lot with a sold sign in the window. I was shocked to see steel rims with plastic covers on the the car. It's sad to see a "GT" model with SE wheels on it, what is Pontiac thinking here? Otherwise the car looked great, it was a dark green color. Build quality looked very good on this production model.

johnclineii · March 2003

Pontiac is thinking that the GT1 IS in reality the old SE. There is no SE anymore, but there are now THREE, arguably FOUR levels of GPness: officially GT1, GT2, GTP, Then, the competition package available on the GTP in effect makes the car an utterly different beast, so some will see that as a whole nother model still, though GM does not.

Of course, if you Canadians lucked out and got better trim packages than the US (like, say, on the Mazda6), then none of this applies to you.

dindak · March 2003

A car in this price range should have standard alloy wheels. Just my opinion, I understand what you are saying. Even our old SE had alloys though and I thought the only GPs that didn't were the ones that went to rental agencies.

dindak · March 2003

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2004/pontiac/grandprix/100252307/roadt- estarticle.html?articleId=93322&tid=edmunds.h..reviews..4.*

ruski · March 2003

When '97 GP first came out, Edmunds also loved it in their first review. Then the trashed it in a subsequent review.

vcjumper · March 2003

Intrigue was the same way... Different reviewers later in its life trashed it after it got the 3.5L motor and later, minivan struts sometime in 2K.

dindak · March 2003

Take what you can get. So far, every review I've seen has been good on the GP so perhaps there is some truth to it all. I will have to test one out myself sometime this spring.

orwoody · March 2003

Car and Driver did a review for their April edition. Typically C&D has been pretty hard on Pontiac and GM but this article was almost positive.
An interesting observation - all the photos in the various articles seem to be the same car - I noticed the interior color is a gray/taupe whereas per the Pontiac brochure the only interior colors are dark pewter or Parchment... hmmm

dindak · March 2003

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/ly/04grandprix.htm

snaab · March 2003

there are only 2 colors available. dark gray and a very light beige. i saw the light beige leather today. same shade found in caddys. looked surprisingly nice on a green GTP with chromes. thats the combo i want. the IP and trim pieces were still black so the interior contrasted really well im my opinion. gave the car an upscale look. Alright thats enough rambling.

snaab · March 2003

oh yeah... is it me or do the color choices this year really suck. i saw the dark red (cherry?) and it looked awuful. i miss the dark blue and the dark red colors. those really looked awesoime on teh old GP. ahh oh well...

dindak · March 2003

The dark green I saw was really nice. Have not seen any others yet. The green had the beige interior and it wasn't bad (and I'm not a beige fan).

mrrogers · March 2003

Car and Driver magazine has a very interesting audio interview with GM Vice Chairman Bob Lutz about the future of Pontiac. You can hear it at www.caranddriver.com

orwoody · March 2003

The dark green is the Polo Green GM introduced a couple yeas ago on the GMCs(my Denali looks great in it.) So far most of our local dealers haven't received any 2004's(at least that have stayed around the show room more than 24 hours) I never like the midnight blue or the fire engine red and I'm disappointed GM didn't offer the mid-blue and was hoping the "sport red" was going to look as good as a picture someone posted from a preview on the unit they had at a Canadian fair back in 2002) As for the Parchment or light beige leather - it sort of looked okay on the black 2004 they had at our auto show, but really showed the "dirt" and I'm so so on the contrast with the dark gray rest of the interior.... still want to wait and see if Pontiac changes some color choices for next year. Also curious to see if they really release the Fusion Orange....til then I'm quite happy with my GP GT

snaab · March 2003

fusion orange will be out in a few months. not right away. im not sure that color is going to last more than a year... normally people dont like "loud" colors. example: i think they only offered orange on the CTS for a year and then dropped it. could be wrong though.

the dealer here in troy, mi has a bunch of GPs. Saw a white GTP with the comp pack and chrome wheels. freshly detailed. wow that looked great!

johnclineii · March 2003

I think the Cadillac CTS color you are talking about is Copper Sunburst. It certainly DOES look orange. But, it is still around. Your point, though, is a very valid one.

Remember the electric green Neons were avaiable in, but only the first year?

phrosted · March 2003

I've seen a whole lot of those Orange CTS' roaming around... I bet they wouldn't have sold nearly as well the second year... I'm really disappointed that blue-black isn't being offered, I really thought that color would look nice on the '04.

dindak · March 2003

Colors change every year and I suspect the orange will only be around for a year. There is usually only so many people that want to be that different.

montanafan · March 2003

I hear Cadillac has canecelled the "orange" color, so it can not be ordered any more. Must need it for Pontiac because The 2003 Aztek Rally Edition is Fusion Orange, and the 2003 30th Anniversary Grand Am comes in it. Will also be available on Sunfire and Vibe in 2004.

beach15 · March 2003

Copper Sunburst was cancelled on the CTS a month or two ago, for good.

On the other hand, I think orange or orange-like colors are becoming widespread for newly released cars from just about every automaker. Nissan is making it on several cars and also offers orange interiors, Pontiac is adding it to several cars, Chevy has had it available on the Avalanche since introduction and it is now being replaced by a brighter orange, etc., etc.

I'm a real orange fan myself, and always say I'd love to buy a new orange or yellow car, but I think pure black is still my first choice when it comes to any car. I'm a detailer part-time, and there's nothing better than a shimmering, swirl and mark free black car! It just looks better than every color out there when kept properly (when not, it can look bad...).

I'm also a big fan of the new GP and just read a very positive review in Road & Track magazine about a Comp-G model--now I want one! Can't wait to see one in person and get behind the wheel!

dindak · March 2003

The copper sunburst was really not orange and I was not a fan of it at all. Local dealer sold the one they had on the lot though. I have not seen a car I like in an orange I like yet. Yellow is better though.

gmille · March 2003

I just went to the Somerset Pontiac in Troy Michigan and they have a couple of 2004 GTP's with the CompG package. Funny thing was that the wheels on the car are not the 10-spoke machined finish wheels. Instead they were the GTP wheels with the chrome option. I questioned the dealer about this since many of us have been talking on this board about swapping wheels and he told me the following:

The plant that manufactures the 10-spoke wheels burnt to the ground. A few dealers have gotten the CompG package with the intended 10-spoke wheels but now they have scrambled and are just using the standard GTP wheels until another supplier can be set up. On top of that they are charging customers for the chrome wheels ($595) even though customers are already paying a portion of the CompG option package for upgraded lightweight wheels. That is wrong in my opinion! They should not be charging more for this problem. While I like the chrome wheels better, I also liked the fact that the CompG wheels are lighter and fit with the rest of the CompG handling enhancements. What do you think about that??????

Greg

beach15 · March 2003

I have no idea about that story from your dealer, but if you look up any option list on the new 2004 GTP, the chrome wheels just appear as a normal option even for models with the Comp-G package. That, and just about every new GTP Comp-G window sticker I've seen on the net has listed the chrome wheels as an option, so maybe the story about the regular wheels being in very low supply might be true.

I've seen the "normal" Comp-G wheels and the base steel ones with hubcaps, but are there pics on the net anywhere of the other wheels? I'd like to see what they look like.

montanafan · March 2003

There are no order restrictions on wheels. A dealer could order a Comp-G today with 10 spokes.
GTP is standard with 17" wheels and the Chrome is a $595 upgrade, so I see nothing abnormal with them being a $595 upgrade over the Comp-G 17" wheels. I would speculate it is just dealers running up the price by ordering all the options on the Comp-Gs.

beach15 · March 2003

Here's 2 new ones on a dealer lot in VA:
Silver GT:
http://www.starcars.com/Pontiac/4P100_1.html

Black GTP Comp-G:
http://www.starcars.com/Pontiac/4P101_1.html

Wow!! That black one is goreous outside, but the interior is even better! It can't be a Pontiac--I hope this is just the start for GM interiors!

oldsman01 · March 2003

The "comp G" model is pretty sharp, I like those red brake calipers. Anyone know how close to invoice the GMS price on the new GPs is?

Copper Sunburst- The first Cadillac CTS I test drove nearly a year ago was this color. At the time, the dealer actually had two in this color in stock and while they didn't last long, they have never had anymore in that color in. I kind of liked the color, although for a long term purchase I think I would go with something more conservative. However, during the test drive we got ALOT of looks and double takes. I'm not sure if it was the car or the attractive female sales rep that was in the car with me but the car certainly did turn some heads in that color.

Pontiac Grand Prix - 2000-2005

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