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Pontiac Grand Prix - 2000-2005
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Comments
It was great squealing out of the lot in my car again, just feels so good after driving the SUV all weekend. The guy at the body shop really like the car, he said it was one of the nicest looking sedans he has seen. Nice compliment!
TIA
Again...The old 3800 now series 3 superchaged updated for 2004 still packs more punch. Go figure... Class leading 280 ft lbs of torque... It is very cheap and easy to modify the 3800 to make 300 horse and still be durable.
My 2002 GTP is modded to put out about 300 horse for very cheap. only problem is that it is on the noisy side, but that is what the radio is for... kidding
The 3.6L will be welcome...
The best part about it is that the Monte is governed to 108 like the GT. GTP is governed to 126 or 127. This is the 1997-2003 cars.
There are always those who think because a car is registered to thus and such, it is their duty to see if the car will do it.
Secondly, it doesn't even have a digital shift selector or odometer like the Regal,Century,Impala or Intrigue.
GM was being awfully cheap with this car interior wise.
Canadian Driver
Dindak, if the 05 Regal comes in 2 door form and is decent looking, I'll have some hope in the Buick division after all. And if they put the 3.6 liter DOHC V6 in it, it will be quite an interesting car. Too bad I'll probably already be driving a CTS by then.
vcjumper : Decent review. I can't wait to try one. Hopefully later in the week.
Yes the GTP has a cheap interior I have owned 2 of them now, a 1997 and now a 2002. I fully admit it. I also own a 2001 Infiniti I30t which has a 10x better interior then anything at GM. So I know good interiors. I bought the car for reasons other then the interior. I bought it for a 6.8 second car for $22k. The shift lever indicator is acceptable on the GTP.
The GTP is very easy/cheap to modify. To get the same performance out of the Monte SS you have to spend alot more $$.
For Under $3k in mods, I have 300 horse power and 0-60 time around 6 seconds flat... Car only cost $22k.. For $25k have a nice driver. that includes some suspension mods...
To each their own, some like the Monte SS.. some don't. For 2004 It becomes more appealing with the supercharged engine, but why didn't GM put the series 3 in with 260 horse? They are still using the same old 1996 engine...
Check out my picture on my profile...
Speaking of that 1995 Olds Aurora with the 4.0L DOHC V8, That was a nice engine...It was the same size and horsepower of the 1995 LS400, but the Aurora just stood out alot better then the dull/boring LS400.... and I have revved that many times to 6000rpm, more refined then the Intrigue. That car was great at highway speeds and had the same 8 second 0-60 time of the Intrigue. Only problem was the handling was a bit floaty and nose heavy. Car weighed 3,967 lbs more then a crown vic!! That car became an oil burner at 70,000 miles.. which is typical of some of the Northstar engines of up to 1997 or 1998.
Digital shift indocators--I am sure that there are many features the 1997-2003 Grand Prix doesn't have that cars that appeared or where redesigned after it have.
If the a car hasen't been updated with the latest electrical arcitecture, it probably can't use the latest features and engines, would be one theory.
Sounds like you got rooked on you Aurora though. Would have got much more selling private.
There are also many features the 1997-2003 Grand Prix DOES have that even brand new 2004 redesigns do NOT, HUD is my favorite feature on any car, wish my Infiniti had it, and On Star to track your car if it gets stolen or unlock your doors, something that Camry and Accord don't have, dual climate control, not every car has that either. My '01 I30t doesn't have dual climate. Of course, the car is very easy/cheap to modify which mine is. Wherever I go I get, Hey nice car... where as in my Infiniti or other cars, knowone would say anything.
I got my fuly loaded 2002 GTP coupe complete with the chrome wheels for a tad over $22k in September 2002, leftover late model Coupe, including the $3k rebate. A Monte SS with 40 less horse would have been the same or higher priced and a similar equipped Altima V6 would have been about $5k more... I don't see $5k more worth of refinement in the Altima. V6, the torque steer is worst in class on the Altima V6, much worse then my GTP.
The best part about this is that I've been trouble free, knock on wood, where as my Infiniti has been to the dealer multiple times in the same time period.
I like both cars for different things.
yes the 215 horse was good when the Intrigue came out as a 1998, but by today's standards the competition's 3.5L engines make 250-260 horse and are about 1 second faster to 60 and more refined.
I took it in the shorts on my Aurora and I took it in the shorts on my 1997 GTP too. I had 55k miles on my 1997, I only do about 10k a year, the dealer tried to knock me down for HIGH MILEAGE? He had to be kidding, right? 55k on a 1997 seems acceptable to me.
The reason I traded the 1995 aurora was because of the oil burning issue, which old wouldn't fix... Under extended warranty they would have had to pull the engine out and tear it down and if they said it was ok, then I was liable.. the car only visibly burned oil above 4000rpm or if you were hard on it. normaly driving, nothing. Another thing, that engine took 8 quarts of oil at a change... expensive when using Mobil 1 like I do and that is another thing, the dealer tried to blame the oil burning on the Mobil 1, give me a break. Then they tried to blame it on the PCV valve.. at the end the check engine light kept coming on for no reason, they couldn't fix that... started becoming a headache... was a very nice car though.. got many compliments on it's styling..
As for power, more HP may be available now, but in terms of real power Intrigue had 230 ft lbs of torque vs 212 ft lbs for the new Accord.
The only flaw with the Aurora V-8 is the common crankshaft seal failure (must drop the engine, split the block and re-seal - about a $1500 job. Had mine done in March, thank you warranty company)...
--Robert
In 2002 Wards came out with it's BEST 10 engines of the past 100 years list and BOTH the regular 3800 series 2 and Supercharged series 2 3800 were on that list... The 3.5L was not on that list. It is basically a downsized version of the 4.0L Aurora V8 was not that reliable.. only average. Most surveys put the 3800 as GM's most reliable/bulletproof V6... Why doesn't GM make the 3.5 anymore? Why the early departure of the Intrigue?
Wards started the top 10 engines list in 1995. The only engine to be on that list every year is Nissan VQ 3.0L and 3.5L engines which are the best V6's I have ever driven..
I'm NOT an Accord fan, never will be and will never own one, but...thats not a fair comparison, the Honda is a 3.0L and the Intrigue a 3.5L... but..... I don't go by torque or horsepower, it's about 0-60 and 1/4 mile times... The honda will smoke the intrigue... 7.0 seconds to 60, the intrigue is close to 8.0 seconds... 1 second slower. Not to mention that the Honda is EPA rated at 30mpg on the highway, better then the Intrigue, has a much higher resale value and is alot more reliable and better built...
I never had that problem with the crankshaft or heard of that before... with my 1995 Aurora, traded it in with 75k miles in 2001, but I had the oil burning problem, check engine constantly, even when it ran great. The 100K tuneup spark plugs are BS... mine had to be changed at 50k miles... It was a great car the first 5 yrs until 2000. Thankgod I had bough the extended warranty, it paid for itself.
BTW.. the A/C compressor on the 1995 Aurora is about a $998.00 dealership repair... broke in 2000 I can thank my ext warranty, that nearly paid for the warranty itself...
The only dislike I have had of the 4.6 Caddy engine and 4.0L Aurora shortstar engine is that off the line from a dead stop there isn't alot of power... that is a trait of most DOHC motors... once you hit 15-20 mph watch out...
Funny thing is that my Aurora would burn rubber on the 1-2 shift if I had the performance shift button on and left the car in 2... chirp the tires good into 2nd... pretty impressive for a 3967 pound car...
With the GTP there is power at any speed. where as the regular 3800 goes flat after about 50 mph...
The 3800 Intrigue is just as fast as the 3.5L intrigue 0-50 In fact off the line and up to 30 the 3800 is slightly faster...but.. after 50... the 3.5 is supreme on the highway the 3.5 kicks the 3800 butt.
If it wasn't for that, the 3.5 V6 could as well use cam phasing and display figures similar to either Nissan's or Honda's high-feature V6.
However, the new high-feature V6 family, sporting 60° between the banks, was already under development and it wouldn't make sense to develop the ShortStar with limited applications.
Then again, the 3.5 V6 is one of the engines with fewer warranty claims at GM. It used to be plagued by bad crankshaft sensors, but that was it. Its oil consumption is also very low, though not in the same ball park as the 3.8 V6.
Intrigue's demise? Well, as Lutz said at Chrysler, sometimes the customer is wrong. It handled much better than a Maxima and had a good punch when it was launched. Yet, thanks to UAW, it did have more than its share of assembly issues...
New Accord can be compared to new GP, thats a fair comparison.
First off the 3.5L was on Ward's Top 10 engine list.
If you want me to go through the Intrigue archives I will.
The 3.5L only had 2 probs. The cranks haft sensors which caused rough start/non start conditions. And oil usage on some engines.
While the 3.5L had it's roots in the Northstar, the Shortstar actually incorporated design improvements that appeared on the NEXT years' Northstar.
So for 1 year the Shorstar was the most advanced engine GM had.
Also, not fair to compare the 3.5L to the Altima motor, an engine that came out 3 years later.
There was a 225 hp version of the 3.5L that was squashed when Old's demise was announced. This engine was also supposed to go into the CTS.
Lastly the 3.5L had all kinds of midrange torque.
I barked the tires several times on the 3-1 downshift.
Second, and maybe it's just me, but I thought this was a GP forum. No 3.5 in the GP, not now, not in the past, and not in the forseeable future.
What a chassis. Won't even need to drive the GP after spending a few minutes in the CTS.
Several of us refugees from the Intrigue and Impala forums(among others) have some big decisions to make.
Which sedan will replace them?
Personally I am flopping around all over the internet trying to find something that is good enough for me to drive for 2+ years.
Don't think the GP is on my list anymore.
I loved my test drive in the CTS today, but it is a differnet class of vehicle and a lot more expensive than a regular Gran Prix. But a better deal than the GTP Comp.
What have you decided?
I was presold on the Grand Prix and would have bought one, but then I actually saw and drove one. The tacky cloth seats and the unlivable back seat (for any reasonable sized adult riding long distances) unsold me right quick like.
b4z : I have driven a CTS also and yes it's great, it should be as it costs lots more.
johnclineii : I sat in the 6 at the auto show and I don't recall the back seat being all that roomy either. Maybe it's better than the GP but not by much. That said, I do like the car.
Fair comparison, the 1998 Accord 3.0L V6 200 horse, still has the same or FASTER 0-60 & 1/4 mile times then the Intrigue 3.5 with 215 horse. If the accord is a manual shift, it easily wins... Fair comparison, right? The Honda engine is alot more reliable and probably just as refined also 1/2 a liter smaller in displacement yet just as fast.
The final interesting thing is that the 3800 Supercharged gets almost the same 19/28 EPA rated gas mileage as the 3.5, go figure.
part of the reason they phazed the 3.5 out was because it wasn't up to new US emissions standards? Yet the 3800 from 1997 still was until 2003.... not bad for an old pushrod engine.
3.5/Intrigue are a nice car, I just heard the reliability overall was not that great. Obviously there were some issues as to why they cancelled it so early before the other Olds.. even with the 5yr 60k warranty, people still weren't buying Olds....and the GP and other W body cars still live on... also probably sales related too.... Sorry about being off topic
As for me I wouldn't consider the GTP anymore since they got rid of the 2 door... that kills it for me...
And even if the 3.5 were updated to the emissions regulations, in this day and age, it would still need variable valve timing: add a few 10s, if not 100s, of millions of $$$ in development here...
The Series 2 3800 is very EASY/CHeap to modify. A pulley will give you instant amount of horse. For very cheap you can get 300 horse like I have out of the 3800 s/c. Where as to do that with the 3.5 is big $$ if it can even be done or handle it. Only sore point on getting 300 horse out of the 3800 can be the tranny. I've seen some die early, but it depends on the driver. I never had a problem yet... depends how you drive it.
I have to laugh, because a 1997 GTP still FASTER then a 2003 Accord or Altima V6 0-60 and 1/4 mile
Gunit, by your handle and your comments, I'm guessing 0-60 is your priority. Keep in mind, not everyone is as concerned about that stuff.
But the 3.5 is no lame duck. But multi-valve engines beg for cam phasing because of their poor low-end torque, and it became a must-have in this century. Given the applications that GM has in mind (remember, a 90° V6 cannot be used in transversal applications in typical European cars: it wouldn't fit), it was better to develop a new V6 family with all the bells and whistles that the market calls for nowadays that could have its cost absorbed in a myriad of applications than working on the 3.5 with limited applications. The new V6 line will be used not only in NA, but also by Opel, Holden and Saab, in high-rev and turbo versions as well.
The bottom-line I want to make clear is that the 3.5 was killed IN SPITE of its being a fine engine.
>-(
evandro : Can't wait to try out a new 3.6L. Hopefully GM will make some variants of that for other cars also. 3.8L was indeed the cheapest upgrade for emissions which is why it now powers all GM midsize cars.
Dindak, You are right 0-60 isn't everything, at the track its the 1/4, but even 30-70mph, the GTP is still faster then the Intrigue... The problem with most DOHC, even the 2003 I35 with 255 horse that I get as a loaner, they are WEAK off the line... Once you hit about 15-20 mph, watch out... I like the instant response of the 3800, power at any speed and rpm. Feels like an old muscle car off the line... you could lay a serious strip of rubber, with the TCS off, though I don't recommend it. My Aurora 4.0L DOHC great performer above 20mph... off the line was weak... a regular 200 horse 3800 would beat my aurora off the line. But once on the highway and watch out...
I can't think of a roomier car with the performance of the GTP for the price I paid in 2002. $22k in change loaded, inlcuding the $3k rebate and it being a leftover, the dealer couldn't move any coupes.. everyone else wanted the sedans.. The only NEGATIVE I have on the GTP is crappy interior, I agree and it can sometimes ride to harsh, a littel more road/engine noise then normal, but only when your hard on it.
My final choice came down between the V6 Altima loaded and GTP.. the dealer told me the loaded ALtima V6 with everything, that their cost was $25k and i would have to do better then that... I got the GTP and saved nearly $4k... I don't see $4k worth of improvements in the Altima.. BTW... Altima has among the WORST torque steer I have ever felt, much worse then my GTP.
Knock on wood my 2002 GTP has never had a problem yet, though only 9 months old. Maybe after 5 yrs GM got it right on that '97-'03 design.. LOL
I never said the 3.5 was junk or bad... I prefer the 3800 S/C better. The DOHC motors I have had, are deadbeats off the line, My '95 Aurora and '01 I30t, are sluggish off the line, well the I30t is better, a regular 3800 off the line is much more powerfull... DOHC don't kick in until about 20mph... and are great on the highway. The 3800 s/c is one of the rare engines that is good at any speed.. whether off the line or at 80, still has balls. At 6.6-6.8 seconds.. actually 6.5 on the new '04, is one of the fastest family sedans on the market.
When I bought in 2002, the leftover Intrigues were more $$ then my GTP. I couldn't have gotten a fully loaded Intrigue for $22k in change like I did my GTP. 5yr 60k warranty is a nice touch though... We each like the cars for different reasons. I took my $3k rebate and put it back in the car with modifications, For $25k in change I have a 300 horsepower coupe.. not too shabby... that is still drivable in the snow, unlike mustang/camaro. And I don't pay the higher insurance rates then the mustang/camaro drivers... GTP is about 20% less to insure per year.. I checked in 2002 when I was looking with my carrier.
The Intrigue resale value isn't that great, less so once olds does go out of business. the aurora resale is very horrendous. loses 75% of its value in 5 yrs. which also makes it a great used car special. GTP holds it's value a little better then Intrigue.
0-60 is not important to me, I prefer highway passing power. I realize the GTP is faster, but I prefer the interior of the Intrigue and the smoothness of the 3.5L. That said, I like the new 04 much better than the 03.
FYI.. We did have a 3.8L GP SE for 2 years but it was totalled in 2000.
Yes the 4.0L V8 in My aurora was refined but not that much more then the 3800.. The 4.0L V8 was not as refined sounding under hard pickup as my 3.0L V6 in the Infiniti.
The only reason GM put the 3.5 in the Aurora as a base model starting in 2001 was to add sales which they did. Aurora sales doubled in 2001 vs 1999. The 3.5 was nice, but was a JOKE in the Aurora... underpowered... 215 horse in a car weighing near 3700 lbs doesn't combine for spirited performance... 0-60 on the 3.5 Aurora was in the 8.5 - 9.0, not acceptable for Olds FLAGSHIP Car...
It is about time that GM is going to offer an optional V8 in the Bonny... They sould have started doing that back in 1997 when the GP got the 3800. I wll hvae to test drive that V8 bonnie.. supposed to be around 280 horse...
As for the new 2004 GTP... no more coupe, so that rules it out on my list. The leather/seat quality is better then my 2002, but some other pieces remain as cheap. They did improve the handling and a little quieter.. I also think the 1997-2003 looked better, esp the rear. More bolder looking. Nice car... it outdid the Audi A6 in every performance contest... go Pontiac....
I won't be buying a new car until around 2006, so there will even more out by then... I usually keep my new cars for 5-6 yrs...
I didnt' think the backseat was that horrible on the 2004... Besides I don't soley buy my cars for their backseat.. Look at the Audi A4 and BMW 330, the worst backseats I have ever sat in.. you knees are imbedded into the seat infron of you.. no room.. I'm only average height of 5'11 There isn't much trunk space on the A4/330
BTW.... what happened to your 2000 SE if you don't mind me asking? I have had SE's for rental cars.. not bad.. the 3.1L is underpowered in those cars. The SE doesn't handle as well as GT/GTP, but not bad...
Sure the Accord would be faster with a manual, but it didn't have one and neither did the Intrigue? I don't get that logic at all?
TIA
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I guess that indicates that it is not selling very well. I figured the rebates would be starting after it debuted for at least half a year or so.
I'm kinda wishing I would have bought the CTS now.