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Pontiac Grand Prix - 2000-2005

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Comments

  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    I have no problems getting in or out of my GTP coupe in a parking spot UNLESS some idiot usually in a mommy mobile minivan or Big gas guzzling SUV misjudges and parks over the lines or too close. Parking spaces are regulated by the township you live in, In my town its 9x20 which is more then enough
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    Dan165 Pontiac will never be or should never be the "POOR MANS BMW" beacuse where would that leave Buick or Caddy? Pontiac is NOT a luxury car its GM's sporty line. I 100% agree with you

    Yes you are right I almost considered a loaded V6 altima until I sat in the interior, felt the horrendous torque steeir and was told that their cost was $26k I would have to do alot better, this was in 2002, so I said NO WAY. This was at several dealers in Bergen county NJ.

    Yes the 2004 GP interior is IMPROVED from the 1997 interior, better leather/seats, I love the new speedometer, with metal accents, but the rest of it still feels cheap to me. I like the trip computer better on the '97 bigger and easier to read. Many imports of 1997 still have better interiors then the 04 GP... .GM just need to work on it. we have seen some improvements, maybe more are in the works, and I buy my cars for then just interior. Otherwise I wouldn't have bought 2 GTP
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    dan165, I am giving my honest opinion of the 2004, esp now since I have one has as a company car and I don't recall telling '04 owners that it is a bad car, If I did i APOLOGIZE. I prefer the previous generation, my opinoin, looks bolder/nicer to me and the coupe, The '04 is nice, but not enough improvements over the '03, my opinion. The 03 had $4k in rebates the '04 doesn't, so so to me the '04 is not worth $4k more, you can't change my mind, just like I can't change yours. Yes the 2004 is a nice car, Just wished GM could have bumped the 3800 like they did the supercharged 3800. Thangod they got rid of that rent-a-car SE and 3.1 engine.

    If you remember back in '97 GP touted the new GP sedan as having coupe styling too, even Volve does now, that is BS to me, it's either a coupe or it's not. To me a coupe evoke a sporiter/head turner of a car.. whats next a 4 door corvette? Just kidding.

    Many people are under the false assumption that coupes are small and for younger people, I'm not young and the GTP coupe is the SAME SIZE as the GTP sedan, same 99 cu ft and 16 cu ft trunk. The GTP was $1k cheaper in coupe form another incentice people forget about in '97, forget the dif in '02?

    My father who is 80 thoughy my coupe was VERY ROOMY in the backseat.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    Dindak, Camry and Accord should make their coupes the same size as the sedan then I might consider one by 2006, but the current Solara and Accord coupe are too small for me. In fact I think the Accord coupe trunk is only 12.6 cu ft?

     that is why I own one of both, 2001 I30t Sedan, 2002 GTP coupe and now 2004 GTP sedan company car. Anything that I buy that fits in the sedans will fit in my coupe. To each their own on the sedan/coupe issues..

    Have you ever owned a mid or full sized coupe before? I have owned both and know.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    Why does the Automotive press continuely praise the Foreign cars and bas Ford/GM/Chrysler? If GM made the best car right now, they would still bash it and praise the HOnda.... Its ridiculous, I don't read may reviews anymore do do that reason.

    My friends 2001 Honda Accord 150 hp 4 banger is noisy and slow and has some plastics just as cheap as my 2002 GTP, yet that never gets mentione in reviews.. esp the annoying shaking at idle at stoplights from the 4 banger.

    What about the 3.0 Toyota/Lexus V6 sludge problems or Honda extending its warranty to 6yr 100 k on certain 1998-2001 auto trannies attached to V6's? Esp on the odyseey of 1999-2001? NOtice, knowone ever mentions that?

    Or the weathet stipping and pwr door breaking on my 80yr old dads 1999 Odyssey the day he got it new...

    GM is not bad as people make it out to be. Esp with the incetives and rebates, it makes a great buy.

    When CO\nsurmer reports recently rated the240hp V6 Altima, and 240hp V6 accord, they only tested the 200hp Grand Prix GT, didn't test the 240/260 hp GTP, yet they tested honda's and nissan's best? Whats up with that? They said they couldn't obtain a GTP, to me that is NOT a fair competition then...

    Knowone points out the V6 Accord Sedans WORST IN CLASS .76 skidpad either... I drove one, at itls limits the GTP easily handled it.

    Whatever...
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Now we are getting WAY too far afield of our Sedans Pontiac Grand Prix discussion.

    Take a look at the discussions on the News & Views board. You'll probably find a better place to pursue some of the questions you have just raised.

    And then there are the individual discussions on the vehicles you mention, as well a number of specific comparisons on our Comparisons board - upon which any new comparison discussion may be started.

    Your ticket to the correct discussions lies in the search features on the left side of the page. Check them out!

    And as always, feel free to email me if I can help you find what you are looking for.

    :-)
  • richm4richm4 Member Posts: 169
    I think you're correct about the American car bashing and the foreign car praising.

    BTW, the activity on this GP board has really heated up in the last couple of months or so. For a minute, I had to double check to see that I wasn't reading the Honda board. ;-)
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    This is what I see today..

    American brands are typically under rated and Japanese brands are typically over rated.

    Honda can do no wrong. Even crap like the Element get praise while the equally ugly Aztek gets panned.

    Toyota can do no wrong either. These new Scion vehicles are crap also but the press won't say anything bad about them.

    I still have not tested a new GP but I do own a w-body Intrigue and it's been a fantastic car. Yes I do think GM has a little ways to go in quality but the strides I have seen lately are impressive and quality gap is small enough to ignore IMO.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    Richm4, Example, even my I30t has had more repair issues since Nov, 01 then my '97 GTP and '02 GTP has had.. I30t has had 5 items repaired, the GTP only 1 thing, the '97. Yet according to all the reviews like Consumer Reports the I30/I35 is a much more reliable/better car, LOL go figure. Yes the I30 is put together better, much better interior/high resale but still... the GM has had less problems... LOL
  • regfootballregfootball Member Posts: 2,166
    the element is actually a pretty good vehicle. space, utility, its a box, but then again, its not of bad taste like and AZtek. and then there's the legendary honda reliability. its a versatile hauler.

    gunit- i do agree somewhat that they should have had a new coupe grand prix for 204, but I think Pontiac figured the GTO would ultimately give coupe buyers most of what is wanted right now from pontiac that has been missing for so long....a comfortable coupe with the v8 and rear drive. It is tightwaddish for GM not to make companion GP coupe for this new body as so many other makers go to the trouble and even back in 97 Pontiac made the claims that the 4 door and 2 door GP were so similar there were very very few dissimlar parts.

    that said, considering how dull and derivative the 2004 turned out it may have actually hurt them PR wise to have a 2 door GP with such a crappy rear seat, cheap plastic, and offers not much new into the automotove market in turems of style, or technology. Making a 2 door GP would have raised the expectation as coupes are to be better than sedans performance wise. So the GTO really becomes the halo car and the car for those who want the coupe.

    Maybe the next 'real' Grand Prix will return as a coupe. The 2004 is merely a stop gap which was too far in motion before Lutz could order a clean sheet approach.

    The Grand Prix and Sunfire cannot carry the torch for Pontiac performance coupes because they

    a) don't perform
    b) have no technology. just this year sunfire gets OHC (finally, an engine not better suited to a lawn tractor!). Grand Am's v6 is high tech......for 1986.
    c) are ugly
    d) have such bad stigmas in the market
    e) aren't nice to sit in anyways with the sea of cheap cloth and plastic
    f) neither are phat or have street cred
  • regfootballregfootball Member Posts: 2,166
    to illustrate how a car can be inexpensive and still have a quality interior

    http://www.wieck.com/public/*2PV_053192

    http://www.wieck.com/public/*2PV_053187

    stuff like this alone is a reason why people see GM interiors as flawed, when 'lowly' Fords have nicer interiors than CTS cadillacs.

    offered as an example of how much better the GP would be perceived if they had just went a bit further in the interiors department.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    The example you show is a BRITISH car, sold in the UK. This is not relevant to an American car.

    I don't like the Pontiac GP interior. But, I don't think it fair to compare it to interiors of cars sold in Europe for far higher prices to a much more discriminating audience.
  • midlifecrisismidlifecrisis Member Posts: 391
    Anyone heard what the 04 GP incentives will be now? GM is now in SummerDrive2 - The Max, which is basically a carryover of incentives on the 03 models.
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    midlife : No incentives or even much advertising (other than introductory TV spots) on the 04 GP up here. Must be selling ok by itself.

    reg : Element is no less odd than the Aztek and no more functional other than you can put stuff into it. It also got poor side impact ratings which means it's likely a death trap if you get hit on the side.

    reg : Most of your critic of the GP are yours. Don't confuse your opinion with that of the market. If 260hp doesn't perform, I don't know what does and I somehow doubt you know whats "phat" on the street.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    Regfootball, i semi agree with you, But in GTP form the GP does really peform, 0-60 in 6.6 seconds is pretty impressive. The GT 8-8.5 is kind of crappy for a sports sedan. Thankgod they killed the rent a car SE. REAL Grand Prixs were 2 door coupes with V8's and RWD all the way from 1962-1987, I think the first GP sedan arrived in 1990? The 2004 is only a stop gap, NOT A TRUE redesign of the 1997 platform, like many here are inclined to believe. '04 uses the same w body and drivetrain as the 1997, just some updates and improvements, but enough for me. Pontiac claims 80% of the '04 is new, but I have my doubts. Why didn't they reall improve the interior which was the sore point of the '97-'03? They did improve the front seats/leather qaulity and I like then new speedo but that was about it

    The 2004 is ok, but is nothing more then a rebadged/reskinned 1997 !!

    I moddified my 1997 and 2002 GTP from the stock 240hp to 300+hp, 240hp was NOT enough for me... Those Crappy undersized P225 60 16 Good Year Eagle RSA tires are not good that the GTP came with. I went with P245 50 16, big dif. I also updated the brakes and suspension, after hopping in a regular unmodded GTP it feels slow and sluggish.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    For me the new GTO just looks to plain/avg and does NOT have the room my GTP coupe does. Plus I had a new '86 442 with a modes 170hp RWD setup and it was horrible to drive in the snow with RWD, though no TCS back then. I prefer FWD cars in the bad weather, and I considered a WS6 transam in 2002, but too small/cramped and insurance was about 25% higher the then GTP, not a big deal but still. I saw too many hi end RWD Cars, like mercedes lexus having major problems driving in the NY CIty snow this year, while my FWD GTP had nor problem going around them, pretty good for a car 1/2 their price.

    Like I said before, all cars have their pluses/minuses, there is NO perfect car out there, esp for me. Everycar has a drawback and with the GTP its the chessy interior and so-so build quality/reliability, that has always plagued the W Body, but I bought it for the cheap price/ good looks/price got and good peformance and decent room. if the GP was a sedan only in 1997-2002 I would NOT have bought it.
  • dan165dan165 Member Posts: 653
    Gunit, I never said Pontiac was a poor man's BMW? I think you are mixing me up with someone. I like my car, but I don't see it as anything else but a sporty midsize sedan. It's competitive and I like it's looks better than anything else out there. It also is more than a "re-skin", if you test drive one you will see. The sedan coupe debate is really getting old though. Sedan sales are not what they once were and speculating on why GM killed the coupe could go on forever.

    Regfootball, Have you even driven a 04 GP? The car is not aimed at the "phat" crowd.

    Midlifecrisis, The centre stack of the GP may be hard plastic but it's matted and nice quality. I'm not sure why people think hard plastic = cheap. I personally like the lay out and I don't think it looks any worse than the Altima, though it's probably not as nice as the Accord.
  • gmallthewaygmalltheway Member Posts: 77
    Yes, i glance through the different car magazines at the store every once and a while to see what they are saying, The only place you'll find an American vehicle winning against the foreign is TRUCKS, because CHEVY, GMC, FORD, and DODGE all team up against the TOYOTA. My wife and I have always owned GM and i find there products are VERY reliable, including the 1997-2003 GP, my wife had a 1997 GTP and for the first year body style we never had problems with it, we no longer have it (leased) but i'd buy another one in a heartbeat. Yet due to the fact that a large majority of GP owners LOVE there car they don't score as high as the Accord, CAMRY, Altima according to the "people" in the magizine.
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    I still think GM is close but Honda and Toyota on average are still a bit better in terms of quality. That said, the gap is small and I feel I can pretty much ignore it now. Given the current pricing of US names vs Honda and Toyota, it's VERY unlikely I would ever buy an Accord over a good domestic sedan like the GP.
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    I like Imports more yeah. Thats not true Nissan did take flack for the cheap interior by automotive reviewers just not as much as Gm takes flack though. Mazda took alot heat for the Ford Tranny so don't ever say import brands don't suffer backlash because they do.

    About Honda's problems I admit they have to watch themselves. I think they had so many products they were making from 1998-2001 that quality did slip with the tranny stuff. I don't think these things will ever happen again with Honda.

    About Toyota I'm not really into them. Only a few products I like from them.

    American brands do stuff wrong too though if you look at it: Dodge Caravan's blowing tranny's, Ford tarus's with head gaskets blowing and Ford Escape starting and stalling problems.

    As far as comaring an 01 Accord with a 4 cylinder engine to a GP GTP 2002 witha V6 thats a little different. Of course a 4 cyl Accord is going to be slower than a competitors V6. A 2001 Accord has a better interior than an 02 GP.
  • midlifecrisismidlifecrisis Member Posts: 391
    I've owned a 99 Grand Am GT for 4 years and it is approaching 70K miles. The only money I've had to put into it is for maintenance items like brakes, tires and battery. I also had a few interior fixes under warranty. Other than that, it is a solid car with very good performance numbers (0-60 in less than 8 seconds).

    I've owned a 02 Chevy Avalanche for almost 1.5 years and it has 17K miles. The vehicle has been stellar. 285 HP, pulls my trailer like it isn't even there. Excellent design ideas for unique storage compartments, etc. Midgate down allows me to store 8' sheets of plywood, locked and dry. Midgate up allows me to tote around 6 adults in comfort. Any Japanese models that can do that? The only problem I've had is some moisture in one fog light. That's it.

    I think GM has come a long way, baby.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    Dan165, sorry If I had you confused about the BMW thing. The GP since 1997 in GT or GTP has sporty intentions and in regular driving feels sporty but is NOT a sports sedan, drive it hard and you will see, esp not at 3500 lbs, FWD and 65/35 weight distribution. The 2004 is NOT A full redo, its a reskin, using the same W body chassis and drivetrain from 1997, that is fact. Yeah it is improved, but it ought to be, esp 7yrs later, the competition is alot more improved too. Yes it is a nice looker, just like the 1997 was.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    GMALLTHEWAY, my 2002 GTP has been perfect knock on wood and I would buy another if they had continued the coupe, so next time I will be look elsewhere, Despite my numerous 1997 GTP probs I still bought an 02 GTP, funny thing is that my 2002 GTP cost LESS then my 1997 one did.

    Replaced trunk latch
    soaked carpets, A/C leaking into the car, not under
    HVAC bearing failed
    Both headlights replaced due to moisture
    new trunk pistons
    alternator and waterpump went bad
    auto headlight sensor failed 3 dif x
    wiper motor recall
    right rear speaker went bad
    replaced blower motor
    AC delco battery only lasted 1 yr
    new valve coveor gaskets, oil leaking
    check engine light on, emissions problem fixed
    coolant leak, thermostat/gasket went bad
    Catalytic heat shield replaced was loose/rattling
    Tire rod ends loose, replaced under warranty only after major argument at dealership at only 30k miles.

    Thankgod this was all covered under warranty and extended warranty, otherwise I Loved the car

    Only knock was the cheap interior and somtimes loud/crude engine sound under high rpm from 3800, but great car and I bought another in 2002 figuring they go the the bugs out, great car
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    Dindak, you are 100% right, I would always buy a GTP before I bought a camaccord, regardless of Toyota/honda supposedly better quality. That is what the warranty is for. Camaccord is too boring dul for me, Camry/avalon handle like an old man's car.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    Oldcarguy58,

    Domesticsa and ameican cars have problems, domestics have more historically, but I don't think the imports are as great as the reviews report them to be and I know from owning a 2001 infiniti I30t, Very nice car, but it has also had it's share of problems. MOre then my GP's have had since December 2001.

    I just get sick and tired of these people that tell me that honda/toyota never break down and never have problems which is BS... they may have less problems, but they still do nevertheless. My friend is trading in his 2001 Accord, its going on its 2nd tranny and a myriad of CD/radio and electrical problems, yet its the perfect car right? He just had to spend $700+ on a ABS brake repair since he is now out of warranty and up to 40k miles on the '01. His lease is coming up. He is looking at a new GP, esp driving my MODDIFIED 2002, but I warned him they all don't drive that way, he! he!

    But the fact still remains that Honda had problems with it's auto trannies on 1998-2001 V6 Odysseys and other vehicles and even extended the warranty to like 6yr 100k? Toyota had the 3.0L V6 sludge problem which they tried to blame on consumer not changing the oil on time, but did at least extend teh warranty, so that was a nice gesture. Yet CR doesn't put on any HOnda/TOyota's on its Unreliable or used car list to avoid? WHy is that? I certainly would never buy a used 1998-2001 Honda or Toyota with the sludge 3.0l V6. TO each their own.

    I like both domestic and foreign and I own one of each.

    Consumere reports unfairly tested the new 240hp Accord, 240hp Altima and ONLY 200hp GP GT, they did NOT fairly use a GTP, yet that is ok? They claimed they couldn't obtain a GTP, yeah right. They said the same thing 3 yrs ago too. This test was done late last year. That was an unfair comparo.

    Yes a comparo between my friends 4banger accord and my GTP is unfair I agree. BUt I could NOT stand that annoying semi-rough 4 banger idle at a light in his 2001 accord, typical of 4 banger cars. V6 and V6 are much smoother. Everytime we had to pull out onto a highway in his 4 banger 2001 with 4 adults inside he had to floor it to 5000rpm + just to get decent power...
    loud and annoying. 4 banger accord is a great commuter car, not a great car to have 4 adults going out to dinner in. That is where the V6 is much better
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    It's a bit more than a reskin. The 3800 is now a series III and the suspension ect. is all different from what I understand. It's not an all new car but it's not just a reskin either. I prefer some carry over, all new cars usually mean some trouble. Many Japanese car makers do exactly the same thing including Honda.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    Pontiac themselves claim the 2004 GP borrows 20% of its parts from the 1997-2003 generation. Yes it is an improvment over the 1997, but not enough for me esp when it is using the same 1997 drivetrain, my opinion. Yes some carry over is good. I wouldn't personally every buy a 1st yr car again. The 1998 GTP had 3 major improvements over the 1997, BOSCH ABS/Traction sensor which was more quiet/refined, Traction control and 2nd generation airbags. I should have waited until 1998, but was impatient and wanted to be the 1st on the block to have a 1997 when I did in October '96.

    Just like the 2004 Town Car/Crown Vic/Grand Marquis and Ford Mustang use the same chassis from 1978 !! But with major tweaks over the years. Most people don't know that !!

    BTW, is the Accord all new or not? I know the drivetrain is....
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    Did they finally move the air intake on the 2004 GTP? On the 1997-2003 the airintake is right behind the Driver side headlight, real smart. At the drag strip I always run the car with the headlight off, more air up in there. Remember supercharged cars peform better in cooler temperature then hot humid air
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    The lights are one of the main weakpoints of the '97'03 GP... did they fix the lights for the 2004? haven't driven my company '04 at night yet...

    I switched the headlights in my 2002 GTP to EUROLITE Xenon cyrstal bulbs, typical 9007's... much brighter lights, NOT as good as HID, faxu HID, but better.

    Only $20.00 for the pair. The car looks much nicer at night. Best thing is that I didn't have to updgrade my wiring, though time will tell.

    I don't feel like paying the $500 to $1000 for a true HID upgrade system.

    These lights are near identical to the PIAA lights which are nearly 4 the price at $70 or $80
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    Did they finally install a locking gas cap door on the 2004 GT? haven't had to get gas yet... My 1995 Aurora and now 2001 Infiniti I30t have locking gas cap doors

    The 1997-2003 have NO locking gas cap or door. I fixed that with a $9.99 STANT brand locking cap. Don't need any vandals stealing my 93 octane gas or worse dumping something bad in my tank to ruin my fuel injectors.

    I had someone actually pour sugar into my tank years ago and ruin fuel injectors/your name it. Big $$ to fix.
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 19,029
    C'mon man, you supposedly have the thing in your driveway. Go look at it.

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • evandroevandro Member Posts: 1,108
    Japanese brands have typically kept parts renewal of new models to below 40%, sometimes even less, whereas American ones often used to brag about the ratio of renovation. For instance, I remember DC's CEO bragging that the new Grand Cherokee had in common with the previous model just the parts in a bag he showed to the public.

    I wonder if the new GP being an evolutionary model has something to do with GM trying to improve quality.

    IMO, a move in the right direction.
  • orwoodyorwoody Member Posts: 269
    Per the Pontiac website they are offering $1000 rebate or low interest on the 2004 GP. Keep 'em coming!

    Always like most of the Grand Prixs:
    - College roomie had a '72 GP Coupe w/428 in Gold that was to die for.
    - Sister-in-Law won't give up her '76 GP Coupe and All the V8 power

    I really like the looks of the 97-03 but still can't decide what color was best.
     But I do think I like the 2004 in Black best. Now if I can just get GM to offer a few options I'd like and clean up a few faux pas with the interior. Well, maybe just maybe
  • ruskiruski Member Posts: 1,566
    has anyone seen the new 04 Grand Prix review on Edmunds? They kind of like it but then they found a fwe loose interior trim pieces.

    I'd get a 04 GTP, but the lack of auto-dimming rearview mirror makes me worry. What are the chances they will make it available next year?
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    Ruski, A fully loaded 2003 Honda Odyssey a $30k+ vehicle doesn't have an auto dimming rear view mirror either, I believe certain models of the new Accord don't. For me my back window is tinted black on all my cars so it doesn't matter. The reviews on the 2004 GP have been mixed from what I have read, either good or bad.

    Just like they made ABS/Traction control a $600 option on the 2003 GP, yet it was std on every 1997-2002. They made the HUD an option on the 2003 GTP as well meanwhile it was std on the 2002 GTP. So much for progress? Just another way for GM to make more $$. Take std equipment away then charge for it as an option and keep the base price of the car the same or more. Gm isn't the only mfg that has done that.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    Its a company 2004 GT and I do NOT get to keep it at home, its only for business use from my office when visiting clients, so theoretically it is not mine. Nice car yes, but definitely needs the extra 60hp esp on the highway with 4 adults. NO the gas cap is NOT locking as far as I know. IE the '97 was alot dif from the '96 where as I dont't notice as much of a dif from the '04 vs the '03 other then the new skin. Same drivetrain and W body platform from 1997. Though it is a little quieter and better handling and does stand out much nicer then the camaccordtaurus out there.l
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    Rumor has it that the 2005 or 2006 GTP may get the 4.4L DOHC 280 hp V8 from the GXP Bonnie as an option, that might be worth buying one, even without a coupe..
  • regfootballregfootball Member Posts: 2,166
    "The example you show is a BRITISH car, sold in the UK. This is not relevant to an American car."

    Sure it is, because it will come here, most likely in the same form. How does an econocar car have a better interior than a 30,000 dollar performance sedan?

    "I don't think it fair to compare it to interiors of cars sold in Europe for far higher prices to a much more discriminating audience."

    "far higher prices"- show me its high, last i checked focus were staple commodity cars in europe

    "much more discriminating audience"- that one I don't get at all....do we not deserve to get the same decent products? more discriminating? hardly, its the other way around. we continually get fed these fisher price GM interiors and after awile you have to live with it because they won't fricking produce an interior that's worth the price of the car. People are dsicriminating, but we're forced to settle because the domestics lower the bar for interior quality and use homer apology tactics to get buyers to beleive they should expect less than this basic level quality cars like Honda routinely offer in their interiors.

    But then again, maybe you are right, a lot of Americans have embarrassingly low standards when it comes to what they will accept as transportation, and in a lot of the cars that sell in volume are fine examples.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    Regfootball, ever since 1997 the WEAK point of the GP has been its cheap interior and so-so to avg reliability. as an owner of a a '97 and '02 GTP I can attest, the GP interior is "Fisher Price" CHEAP. The cheapest interior I hae ever sat in for a $28k MSRP car. The 2004 isn't much of an improvement other then better leather and nicer speedo cluster. The only GP that has anything going for it is the GTP version an it's 260 horses, even that engine is loud and unrefined compared to the foreign competition. The 3.5 Nissan and 3.0 honda engines arer much more refined then then 3800. The Accord interior is just as nice as my Infiniti interior. Only knock on the accord is its UGLY rear end sedan styling.

    If pontiac put the 4.4L 280hp V8 engine with the accord type interior in the 2004 GTP they would have a true winner !!! Pontiac keeps wondering why it's sales have dropped for 2 or 3 yrs in a row now...

    Tehy call the 2004 a new GP when it uses the 1997 W body and drivetrain with minor tweaks here and there to the suspension . The 2004 is only a stopgap. The 1997 was the last truly NEW GP.

    I only bought the 2002 GTP, because of the price... I paid LESS for my 2002 GTP coupe then my 1997. The solara and accord coupe were too small for me with not enough power. As we all know the 3800 is very cheap and easy to modify to 300 horse.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    You two must not have kids. Fisher Price is NOT cheap. Fisher Price toys are premium, top of the line items. They command a premium and get it. Fisher Price seems expensive for what it is, but is VERY durable and stands up to abuse. In the long run, one Fisher Price toy will generally outlast three to four cheapies.

    Also, Fisher Price stuff is simple, the average audience, after all, is three to eight year olds! Needless complexity and stuff that will break is out, simple fun is in. My Impala would come far closer to being Fisher Price than any complicated, busy Pontiac interior with all its "gee whiz" factor stuff...(the latest example being the shifter thingy on the steering wheel, instead of being on the shifter where it belongs--like other cars).

    So why do you two call the GP interior Fisher Price? If it were, I, for one, would consider that a compliment.
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    evandro : Definitely a move in the right direction. Re-inventing the wheel every few years is part of the reason US based companies had so many issues with new models.

    gunit : Same engines/ transmissions in the 04 Accords, just tweaked.

    gunit : With the Bonny on it's last leg, the GP is bound to get the 4.4L.

    ruski : I can deal with a loose part of trim (always easy to fix). I can't put up with rattles, squeaks and reliability issues.
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    Pretty much what I expected given what I see at GM these days..

    http://money.cnn.com/2003/07/08/pf/autos/bc.autos.durability/inde- x.htm?cnn=yes
  • rayainswrayainsw Member Posts: 3,191
    The GM information recently released on the Bonne GXP is now that it will basically have a version of the 4.6 (not a 4.4 variant as previously announced) Northsar that looks essentially like the Seville SLS's - similar HP/TQ, but premium fuel is specified. Odd, since Caddy has been specifying regular for a while now.

    Link to GM announcement:

    http://media.gm.com/division/2004_prodinfo/pontiac/bonneville/ind- ex.html

    Cheers,
    - Ray
    Interested in seeing how this GXP model will perform. . .
    2022 X3 M40i
  • garywgaryw Member Posts: 116
    I was looking at a new '03 GT and the sticker had a "premium light package". What is that...the dealer ship had no clue. Is it better headlights?

    Thanks...
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    Usually means more lights in more places inside the car (under the hood ect), theater dimming features and inside door end lights.
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    I would like to say all car companies have their problems with cars and no Toyota and Honda do have their problems. So I do not think Japanese cars are unbreakable.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    <<<So why do you two call the GP interior Fisher Price? If it were, I, for one, would consider that a compliment>>

    JohnclineII, sorry to be off topic !! I have kids, and fisher price strollers are garbage,I'm a Peg Perego, Maclaren and now bug a boo kind of guy for that stuff. Every fisher Price toy I have had has fallen apart, but that is apt to happen with young ones. and for the last time the GP interior is cheap and not up to the competitions standards. I love my now departed '97GTP and now '02 GTP coupe for their semi sporty intentions and great torque but I certainly didn't buy it for its interior. The Leather is more like pleather...thangod they improved that for '04. Sit in a new accord, then sit in the GP you will see the big diff. If Honda could only make their new Accord Sedan with the COUPE body I would trade my 2002 GTP in an instant. But I will see in 2006 what is avalable.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    Dindak,
    When Honda went to their NEW Accord for 2003 they put in a 5 spd auto, the previous generation '98-'02 had only a 4spd aut which was problematic when mated to the V6, Honda ext the warranty on 1999-2001 auto trannies in Odysseys in other vehicles? maybe the 5 spd corrected this? Good guess. Sorry about the confusion.

    Roughly only 20% of Accords are sold with the V6, which is similar to how many GP's are sold with the supercharged engine !!
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    <<ruski : I can deal with a loose part of trim (always easy to fix). I can't put up with rattles, squeaks and reliability issues.>>

    DIndak,
    The 1995 Aurora was known for loose trim pieces as I later found out, easy to fix but annoying on a $33k car in 1995 !! even the dealer told me about circa 1997. Esp the moulding a round the rear window. The W bodies of 1997-2003 are known for rattles, squeaks and reliability issues but are IMPROVED from the 1988-1996 W bodies thankgod , hopefully they have even better fixed this for '04, only time will tell. My 1997 GTP was a rattlebox, the usual culprit in 1997-2003 GP is the door panel clips coming loose. In the dash too. The intrigue as well had it share of W body related problems too. But overall a decent platform. Knock on wood my 2002 GTP is so far rattle free !!! only 8k miles.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    The bonny should have gotten a northstar derived V8 in 1997, the yr they dropped its 3800 in the GP. They gave the Aurora a northstar V8 back in 1995. for me there is no need to spend $5k more for the same drivetrain in a bigger slightly more refined car AKA bonny which isn't that much bigger/roomier, in fact I think it has the same 16 cu ft trunk as the GTP...., my opinion. Now if the V8 had been offered in the Bonny I may have already had one instead of the GTP. Pontiacs & Buicks flagship sedans should have more then just a 3800 V6, Olds Flagship got a V8 back in '95. We'll stay tuned and see what GM does... I just hope that GM has fixed the northstar oil consumption/burning problem which usually doesn't start noticeably occuring until after your factory warranty is up, ha! We'll see...
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