Pontiac Grand Prix - 2000-2005

dialn24 · February 2004

Your post is definitely right on. If I found a car I liked better that was around the same MSRP, I would definitely have spent more money to get it. That car didn't exist for me. For instance, the Impala rear seat comfort was mentioned by spartanman. I think the Impala is a good car, but it just doesn't give me that 'wow' feeling that the GTP Comp-G did. That isn't saying there is anything wrong with the car at all, it's just I wouldn't have been as happy with it. Now, if I was in a situation were I did have adult sized people in the back seat a lot, I may have looked at the Impala SS harder. That isn't the case, so my car fits me perfectly.

As far as the previous generation Grand Prixs, I think this one is quite a bit better then that car, but that is just my opinion. Why the 1998 model year?

evandro · February 2004

I agree with you that the Impala has a nice ride and comfort, but its materials are worse than the previous generation of the GP. I don't know where you're coming from, but you're squarely wrong on this aspect.

As for your quote from Edmunds, have you stopped to think that they couldn't have said anything about the quality consistency without getting several GPs? Does it scream "bias" at you?

evandro · February 2004

You're dead on in your comments. Except that it's not the best cars that command the higher prices, but those that people demand more of. People can demand more of a car because it's indeed better or because they think it's better, without actually being so. The same applies to the other end of the market: cars have lower prices because people demand fewer of them, whether it's actually worse or just perceived so.

GM rebates, profits and market share have nothing to do with how good the GP is or isn't. And either way that's very subjective, especially for a new model.

spartanmann · February 2004

OK - Everyone including Edmunds is biased against American brands. That explains why GM has that 28% market share and Toyota is now passing Ford as number 2 overall. Hey guys - The emperor has no clothes. Hopefully your attitude isn't in the GM boardroom. Otherwise the will go the way of so many other industries that didn't wake up in time to compete.

evandro · February 2004

I couldn't care less about the ranking of GM.

The GP is a competitive car in its class, period. It doesn't mean that everybody buys it, just that it does meet the needs of some buyers. Whether there aren't enough of them to keep GM alive is immaterial to the buying decision in the medium term.

I don't think that many think of buying a GP to help GM, rather most do to satisfy their needs alone. Others can satisfy theirs with other cars, but it's not a reason for me to ape them.

Edmunds and other magazines test cars in a way that I don't and with priorities different than mines. As they don't make the payments for me, my opinion on a car is the golden standard to my buying decision.

So, please, stop being an armchair CEO, let's talk about cars instead of trying to solve GMs many problems (not that other car makers, domestic or foreign don't have their own). :-D

dialn24 · February 2004

You can give up if you want, I could care less. We have seen the 28% marketshare figure enough, and it means absolutely nothing in regards to the Grand Prix being a good car or not. Other then being in the back seat, you have no ground to stand on whatsoever in what you are spouting as an absolute. I am still curious what brought you to this forum other then to start crap (it seems you have a reputation for that by what I have read). As I stated before, you don't own one, don't plan on buying one, aren't in the market for this type of car (or at least haven't indicated you are), and have very limited experience that includes only riding in the back seat. Yep, reading a select few reviews (while completely ignoring the ones that contradict your viewpoint), and riding in the backseat equates to being an expert. I guess the only thing we can really accomplish here is agreeing on the backseat comfort. WHO FREAKING CARES! The positives of this car far outweigh a few select negatives (I am still waiting for a perfect car under 30K that everyone in all of humanity just loves). Go drive one and at least get a more well rounded stance to formulate an opinion on.

By the way, I am heading to the Honda Van forum here shortly. I won't go into details of my experience in one of those because kids might be reading this forum, but man that second row will just kill your back. There is no way it can even be close to a good van then, my back killed me for about 3 days after that experience. Sound fair?

dindak · February 2004

Judging by the number of new GPs I see, I'd say the new car is doing pretty well. I think I saw somewhere sales are picking up quite a bit.

spartan is anti-GM. He certainly isn't all wrong but he never says anything good about GM either.

spartanmann · February 2004

OK pay attention - I'm going to repeat what I've posted many times before "GM HAS DONE A GREAT JOB WITH THE NEW CADILLACS, TRUCKS AND SUVS" The Colorado/Canyon will also be a big success although they will likely get an engine upgrade sooner rather than later. So much for all that GM bashing. Those products have something in common. GM went from a clean slate and didn't try to upgrade older products. They are top of their class, profitable, and get good reviews from all those "biased" reviewers. That's what makes the Malibu/Grand Prix/new minivans etc... a disappointment to many. They are designed to keep existing GM customers, which they will. But some obvious shortcomings will keep them from gaining any new ones. Pointing that out is not GM bashing. The more feedback GM gets the better their next product should be. Ignoring or excusing easily correctable design flaws or pretending criticism is just GM bashing seems counterproductive to me. Unlike these other knuckleheads, I do care if GM survives as it's collapse would have a major impact. I don't think that makes me a GM basher at all. In fact, I've owned more GM products than any other. I hope this time you actually read what I said, not what you want to read.

spartanmann · February 2004

Please "bash" Honda all you want. I would enjoy reading it. I haven't "spouted" any "absolutes", just gave my opinion, no better or worse than yours. Your reaction indicates I touched a raw nerve. Not sure why. I haven't said anything about the Grand Prix that virtually every reviewer has as well. No reason to get your underwear bunched up. A forum is supposed to have different opinions. I don't believe you have to own a car to comment on it unless the rules have changed. If everyone agreed with you this would be awfully boring, not to mention uninformed.

dialn24 · February 2004

Going by your other post, I see you made another hasty generalization when talking about the Colorado/Canyon. Have you personally read all the reviews on the vehicle? Are every one of them good reviews? That's impossible. That's really my main point, you are constantly throwing out these phrases that are just plain wrong. Does that change the fact that the Colorado is a good truck? Nope, but at the same time, a few select reviews that aren't entirely positive about the Grand Prix doesn't mean what they are saying is an absolute. That's my main point.

As far as myself, you haven't struck a nerve at all. It takes quite a bit more then an uneducated opinion to do that to myself. I am just merely going against your misinformed opinion that has no basis whatsoever. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to realize you are doing nothing but spouting out someone else's opinion and you have no real personal experience to even come close to formulating a well rounded opinion. Yet, you are trying to put it out there as it is written in stone or something.

By the way, here is just one little statistic that I will throw out that indicates Grand Prix sales are doing just fine (I guess the consumers spending the money must not agree with these reviews either).

Pontiac - November deliveries were 41,722, a 38 percent increase. Pontiac car sales (35,955) improved 36 percent, driven by the Grand Prix, up 16 percent with 12,582 deliveries, its best November sales since 1978, and Grand Am with 14,466 deliveries, up 90 percent. Pontiac truck sales (5,767) increased 51 percent.

Yep, you are correct, GM sales aren't doing well at all.

dialn24 · February 2004

I can't stand Honda. The vehicles they are putting out are boring looking, the ones I have driven offer nothing exciting when driving the car (the Accord V-6 compared to the Grand Prix GTP Comp-G is not comparison IMO), and they have no excitement value at all to me. Is it a reliable car? Absolutely. Do their cars like the Accord hold it's value well? Normally (the Accord EX is very good). However; if they had a half price sale tomorrow on new Accords, I wouldn't buy one for a personal vehicle because they do absolutely nothing for me. Does that mean people shouldn't buy the car? I am not saying that at all. It's just not for me.

I will leave everything at that. If readers out there want to use someone's opinion on the car that has no basis, that's fine with me. Spartanman is your poster. However; like the many others that actually have driven the car, I would definitely recommend without any reservation whatsoever.

orwoody · February 2004

Sounds like you got a great deal. I was flippin a coin a year ago deciding to wait for discounts to buy a 2004 or take a deal on a 2003 GT. I went for the 2003 GT which I paid just over $18k for with MSRP of over $27k. I still happy, although I know the 2004 is a better car, having lived with several on business trips. My problem now is the GTO is so tempting.

dialn24 · February 2004

I think I got a great deal on the car. I could have bought the GTO at net net also, but I decided against it. I really wanted to go that route, but even with that pricing, it would have been a little over 30K. On top of that, I don't live in a great area for a RWD car. However; I definitely like the interior and the performance of the car. I am still not huge on the exterior though. The first time I saw it I thought it kind of looked like a Cavalier on steriods or something. Maybe it was just the color I saw it in, I don't know.

What equipment is on your 03 GT? You definitely got a good deal on the car. Was it a demo, or did you have GM points going towards it (I did not on mine)? Only curious. I wouldn't think you would be in bad shape if you elected to trade it in with average miles on it.

If you are close to northern Illinois, I know where you can get a non Comp-G 2004 Grand Prix GTP that is pretty much loaded at a pretty good price (it has like 4200 miles on it). I think they are asking like $23995 for the thing, but I am sure it can be had for less.

alan34 · February 2004

I was wondering if anyone could tell me just how different the GP is from the Regal? I am looking at both vehicles (to replace a Saturn L} and the offers on each are great. Is the Regal quieter? Does the GP have a handleing edge? Reliabilty concerns ect?
Thanks

johnclineii · February 2004

Be aware the Regal is about to be replaced by the Buick LaCrosse, which should be much, much quieter than the current Regal, and will offer a new engine. Also, there is a topic here at Edmunds for the LaCrosse.

Since the Regal is on its way out, prices should be VERY negotiable, especially as summer comes. Be aware, depreciation on discontinued cars can be quite high, if you don't intend to keep the car until it wears out...OTOH, it being the last year of the current iteration, reliability has been quite good for the Regal...the LaCrosse will be a largely new model with unproven reliability.

Some say the LaCrosse looks like a Ford Taurus. Count me in that group.

dindak · February 2004

johnclineii : If I was buying this year I would take a close look at a supercharged Regal GS. Deals should be outstanding.

spartan : Well those might be the first positive things I have heard from you on GM. I disagree that everything outside of trucks and Cadillac is not good. FYI, Malibu is an all new car on an all new platform, not a rehash like you claim. Mite want to do your homework before making broad generalizations. Like I said, you aren't all wrong, but you can just say it's all bad either.

midlifecrisis · February 2004

I also debated between a 03 and 04 GP. When the 04 first came out, they offered $4000 rebate on the 03 and virtually nothing on the 04. A couple months later the rebates evened out so I went with the 04.

I test drove both cars, plus a Bonneville. The Bonne was a little to boaty and slow for me. The 03 GP impressed me more than I thought it would. But they only had one 03 GP left, and it had very few options. I wanted the heads up display in the 04, and I wanted a different color in the fusion orange metallic. I haven't been disappointed on either account. Despite what the reviews say, I love my GP and I get so many compliments it is amazing.

spartanmann · February 2004

Thanks for actaully reading my post this time. I've made those comments many times before. Of course you continue to put words in my mouth I never said. No where in my post did I say that all of GM's other cars were bad. No where in my post did I say the Malibu was a rehash. I said it was designed to maintain GM customers which it will probably do. My statements are factually correct in my posts. The exact words are there if you want to quote them. I'm not sure why you have the need to incorrectly paraphrase my comments.

pat · February 2004

Folks, let's try to stick to the Grand Prix here. This is not the place to get into a debate about GM as a manufacturer - try the News & Views board for that.

And we need to stay away from getting personal with each other. Okay?

Thanks.

etcb · February 2004

Why does this site attract all the naysayers! I suppose it's human nature to attack whomever is on top and the GM GTP is definitely on TOP. Ya think!

Glad GTP Owner
04 GTP Graystone.. Varooom!~ See Ya in my rear view!

dialn24 · February 2004

How long you had your GTP? Just curious. I went the Graystone route on my GTP Comp-G. Definitely like the color quite a bit on that car.

chevyguy657 · February 2004

Just spent a day and a half shuttling associates up and down I-95 in my '00 Malibu (which the A/C is now out in; my car is shot).

I have to say, especially with all of our seasonal northern visitors (more out of state tags than FL ones, for sure), that I'm really tired of all the current-model Camcords. Every other car is one. And they're ugly.

Did see quite a few new GPs, and yes, the car really stands out (in a positive way). Also saw my first '04 Malibu on the road; not entirely pretty, but better than the Camcords.

But I won't buy one because of the crash test results (older folks with failing eyesight cause too many probs down here). Why oh why can't GM do a bit better? Not a GM-basher, mind you.

montanafan · February 2004

Look at the crash test numbers not the stars. The only area that the new Grand Prix did much worse in was the femuer load (leg injuries). Head injury was improved by alot. All the side numbers were better (or at worse equal rear thoracic number 86 vs 84), and with the available side head curtain air bags, a much safer choice then the previous generation.

evandro · February 2004

Can you clarify whether the test sample had curtain air-bags? I've had some difficulty finding that out with certainty.

Alas, it seems that it's close to impossible to opt them in, isn't it?

johnclineii · February 2004

You mean to install them as aftermarket?

That would be quite impossible. NO ONE would accept the legal liability that would come with that.

You mean to find a GP with them? Easy, provided you buy tons of other options. GM is hardly alone in that regard. See Toyota, Mazda, Honda, etc.

fantascp · February 2004

I have a 2003 GT- (Redfire Metallic). When we traded in our 2000 White Bonneville for the GT we wanted the Graystone color but it was not available in 2003 for the Grand-Prix. We had seen a Grand-Am with that color on the Dealers Lot- Gorgeous
Color.
I also have a 98 Bonneville SSE-(Dark Cherry) if down the road,
I can swing a 2004 GXP- its going to be either the Graystone or upgrade to the White Tri-Color.
Good-Luck with your 2004's!!!!!!

mrrogers · February 2004

I recently replaced my 2001 Buick Regal LS with a 2004 Grand Prix GT1. The Regal had 77,000 miles, and had no visits to the GM dealer. I replaced all the fluids and filters myself, and I had no reliability problems. I have 18,000 miles on the Pontiac, and I have had no problems. The Grand Prix is now built in the same assembly plant in Canada as the Regal, so I expect similar reliability. Some people complain that the cloth seats in the early 2004 Grand Prixs are ugly, but after about the first week I never thought about it. The Pontiac front seats are much more comortable on a trip than the Regal's. Some people complain that you can't put customers in the back seat of a Grand Prix, but none of my customers have complained. My wife, my mother-in-law, and I took the car on an 1800 mile trip this fall. We took turns riding in the back, and it is okay.
My LS had the fifteen inch rims, and I like the handling of the Grand Prix with the sixteen inch rims. I have not driven a Regal with sixteen inch rims, but I would assume the handling would be better than with the fifteen inch rims. Bottom line is that I like the Pontiac driving experience more than the Regal, but I suggest that you take both cars for a GM 24 Hour Test Drive, and decide for yourself. They are both great cars, so there is no bad decision.

montanafan · February 2004

When the NHTSA lists the results, they add the notation "w/ SAB" to indicate side bags on the test car. No such notation for the Grand Prix test, so assumption would be no side bags. A second way to check would be to see the salvage sale list. The NHTSA sells the cars they crash. Could check the VIN for the "4" which would indicate side bags. No 2004s listed yet, and no listing for crash test "C40100", the test number visable in the Grand Prix picture.

chevyguy657 · February 2004

You might just be the savior I've been looking for. When you get a chance, no rush, could you please clarify for all of us what the numbers mean in some detail? I'm well-versed in the "stars", but don't understand either how to get, or interpret the "numbers".

I'm under the impression that the GP tested did not have side airbags.

I also can't see that IIHS has tested an '04 GP yet, but I could swear that I saw the offset test months ago on TV. Maybe I was dreaming.

Thanks.

dialn24 · February 2004

Thanks. I had seen this color on the Grand Am also and liked it quite a bit. I was a little bummed that it wasn't available when the GTP first came out, but I liked the color on the car enough to wait for it. I am glad I did. I personally like the way the chrome wheels and red brake calipers look with this color. I also like silver on the car, but I have had 2 silver cars in a row and decided for a change. I am glad I did. Good luck to you too!

etcb · February 2004

Feb 06, 2004 (9:59 pm)
How long you had your GTP? Just curious. I went the Graystone route on my GTP Comp-G. Definitely like the color quite a bit on that car

I got my GTP in October. Graystone was hard to get. I got mine right of the truck at Koons Pontiac, Tysons Corner VA, I like Graystone and red&white labeling

chevyguy657 · February 2004

Well, I've found a free hour.

When you go to the NHTSA site (link below, for your convenience), click on the blue wording underneath the category ratings which appear at the top of the "stars columns". That gets you a detailed discussion of what the stars ratings means (yes, numbers, graphs and all). I've printed it out, and will analyze it the next time I find another free hour.

For reference, the '04 GP had star ratings of 3 4 3 3. The '03 had 4 4 2 3. I'll post my review of this stuff in a few days (hopefully), but to be honest, I don't like the looks of either set of numbers. My '00 Malibu has 4 4 3 4, not great either, but better than either GP.

http://www.nhtsa.gov

spartanmann · February 2004

Any criticism of the Grand Prix and you may not be allowed in the treehouse.

chevyguy657 · February 2004

Oh yes, I will. I'm too smart and good-looking. I'm a "keeper". And would look great in a new GP, if I can come to my senses. Safety isn't everything, and you have to take risks. We'll see.

By the way, I also think, when you get to NHTSA's site, you also have to click on the actual GP ratings. I have a free hour or two now, so I'm headed there.

chevyguy657 · February 2004

to figure this out, I just couldn't devote my full attention to it before now.

OK, as I said yesterday, to get the background info on what the ratings mean, click on the blue sub-headings underneath the column titles. Print that out, if you care to. Go to the '03 and '04 GP (requires that you pull up the table 2 times) and click on 2003 Pontiac Grand Prix, on the left side, to the left of the "stars", and then on the 2004 Grand Prix (back to the home page to get the '04 table) to get a DETAILED summary of the vehicle crashed.

I've mentioned this discussion in the Malibu and Maxx discussions, so this is for their benefit to.

LOTS of info. Will take time to digest.

midlifecrisis · February 2004

Oh my gosh! Crashing in the 04 GP would most certainly be fatal, even if I just hit a shopping cart in the parking lot. I better trade it in immediately.....

dan165 · February 2004

mrrogers, congratulations on the new GP. We love our GT2 and I'm sure you will like your car for the long haul. We have had no issues at all with our car and feel good about the purchase. GM has a winner with this car in spite of a few little niggles like the back seat. Hopefully over time they will be addressed. Luckily, I don't care about the back seat so it's not an issue for me anyway.

chevyguy657 · February 2004

Your death, not mine. I really like the new GP, but it's like the Corvair, of many years gone by, unsafe at any speed.

Oh well. Later.

midlifecrisis · February 2004

Oh yes - I can see Ralph Nader coming out and protesting the GP because it is so unsafe. Get real.

chevyguy657 · February 2004

I don't have to get "real". I just won't buy one. Simple as that.

jbbw20 · February 2004

GP: Great Product, I had a bad experience during a test drive last year and ended up bypassing the GP for a Taurus. I use rentals quite often recently using a GP GT1, Camry, and Malibu the GP was far superior to any of those products and also far superior to my current Taurus. If I had to purchase a car today I certainly would not hesitate on a 04 GP.

alan34 · February 2004

Any difference in the handleing/steering ect between the GT1 and GT2. We have fantastic deals on a GT1 here in Canada and I was wondering if I really needed to buy the 2 over the 1?

tateos · February 2004

I think the answer is no, but go here:

http://www.04grandprixtraining.com/index.html

Then click on "Handling" on the left side. You will see a chart of the differences between models.

This is a site used for training Pontiac dealer personnel, but there is a lot of things that interested me there.

Richard Moore

etcb · February 2004

The critics are never right. 9.3 out of 10.

Consumer Reviews

------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------

Ann Job's Pontiac Grand Prix Review
The Grand Prix is redesigned for 2004 with a modern, sturdy feel to the body and chassis and more horsepower generated by the supercharged V6. While body-side cladding is gone, the look is only mildly updated, and the back seat can be uncomfortable.
Rating: 6.75 out of 10.
Dan Jedlicka's Pontiac Grand Prix Review
New Grand Prix combines style, practicality and strong acceleration.
Rating: 7 out of 10.

9.3 Overall Rating

9.4 Styling
9.4 Performance
8.7 Interior
9.2 Quality
9.4 Recommendation

midlifecrisis · February 2004

Once again this proves a disconnect in opinions between those who review the cars and those that own the cars.

Realistically you can't form a useful opinion unless you drive the vehicle on a daily basis for at least a minimum of a week, but more likely a month or so. It is beneficial to experience the vehicle in many different conditions, such as temperature range, snow, ice, rain, dark, light, etc. Obviously, media outlets that review the vehicles only test drive them for a day or so. Long term testing is much more beneficial.

That's why I would think owner's opinions should be more useful than a reviewer's. Especially if the owner is realistic about the good and bad points of the vehicle, like most have been here.

What I can't understand is the people on this board constantly insisting that they will not buy the GP for this reason or that. I know you are entitled to your opinion, and this is a free country...blah blah blah, but what is the point of you being on this board? Are you protesting the vehicle so that others will be influenced and not buy it?

I didn't buy an Impala, Malibu, Altima, Jetta, etc. Should I go on to every one of those boards and make sure people there know over and over again that I won't buy their vehicle? I just don't get it....

dan165 · February 2004

I'll bet if you buy the base GT1 with the steel wheels and base tires you may not get the same handling. Not sure if the tires are the same, but my guess is they aren't.

spartanmann · February 2004

Car mags and writers are not reviewing vehicles in a vacuum. They are comparing it to the competition. A car may be a very good product and a 6 or 7 out of 10 may be a very fair score. What it means though is that there is another car (or cars) out there that is even better that is a 9 or 10. Owners spend almost all of their time in their new vehicle and have just spent $20K + for it. Their reviews aren't comparing it to the other cars they didn't buy, just if they think they got their money's worth. A completely different analysis. No surprise that their ratings are different than reviewers. If you compare owners reviews to the mags for virtually any car, foreign, domestic, whatever, you'll find the owners rate it higher. Comparing the two types of reviews to demonstrate some sort of bias is pointless.

jal012773 · February 2004

We just bought a GT2 last weekend after test driving it and a GT1. I couldn't tell you what the differences are in equipment such as tires and suspension, but I can tell you the GT2 was far superior in handling, performance, and road/wind noise. We drove the GT2 first, then the GT1 seemed like a totally different car made by a totally different manufacturer. I would recommend going with the GT2.

01gpgtp · February 2004

Hello everyone, I am new to the posts, but nevertheless I'm a diehard Pontiac fan. I've owned three of them in my short time as a driver.
My first Ponatic was a 89 6000STE AWD. Awesome car and it gave me minimal problems, I owned it for 5 years and put 65,000 miles on it. Only thing bad I have to say about it, was it got real rusty and had lost lots of it's blue paint. I sold it and purchased a 95 Grand Prix SE. I bought it with 30,000 mile on it and got rid of it 5 yrs later at 80,000 only because I was dying to own the newer body style (97-03). The car was awesome, not a single problem. Looked and drove like it was new.
After looking around and driving several GT's and GTP's (not knowing which I wanted to own) I stumbled across a 2001 GP GTP with 8,500 miles on it. This was 6 months ago in Aug of 03. The Pontiac dealer had it on a lot for an amazingly low price. When I inquired about it, they told me the car belongs to one of their mechanics, and he is looking to sell it fast in order to by a Camero SS. To make a long story short, I spoke with the mechanic, and he and his wife decided to sell their beloved GTP to purchase the SS. The GTP was their 3rd car and sat in their garage for most of it's life. It had never seen snow,(from Mass) and was extremely cared for. He conducted the maintenance himself using synthetic oil, I have never seen a car being 2 years old and in such awesome condition. It doesn't even have a scratch on it. I had to buy it.
So here it is, 6 months later I am the proud owner of a 2001 GP GTP. I bought it with 8,500 miles it now has 15,000. It has every option a 2001 GTP could have on it. It's a silver 2dr with 3 spoke chrome rims (which had to grow on me) It also has the gray leather. I've had no issues thus far, and don't expect to have any. No rattles, no strange sounds, just a sweet driving car. (although the ride is kinda stiff, but I'll have no problem getting over that) I don't treat my cars as race cars, although I have shamed a few drives out there who thought they were all that in their BMW's and Audi's.
Just thought I'd post this and be part of what sounds like a proud bunch of Pontiac enthusiasts

evandro · February 2004

The competition that reviewers compare against are other reviewers. How much are you willing to trust a reviewer who says that "cladding is gone" when the GP didn't have any?

Pontiac Grand Prix - 2000-2005

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