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Pontiac Grand Prix - 2000-2005
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Comments
I only have 7K on my Grand Prix GT, so I can't tell you anything about long-term reliability.
The initial quality, however, is very good on my particular car. I have absolutely no complaints, and there have been zero trips back to the dealer for adjustments or fixes.
I love the power and the handling. I have the 1SC package with leather, and I like the automatic temperature control. You just set your temperature like the thermostat in your house and forget about messing with temperature controls and fan speeds- it decides for itself what it needs to do to maintain your comfort.
I am very happy with the gas mileage. I have gotten 29.9 mpg twice on strictly highway and I get around 22 to 23 on highway/city mixed driving.
I've never run out an entire tank of gas strictly doing city driving only, so I don't know what it would do in that situation, but the on-board computer shows some awfully low numbers on a fresh tank of gas before I get any highway driving done.
Hope this helps in your decision.
tsjay
PS. If the dealer won't answer your questions now, how do you think you will be treated if you come in with a problem?
First, the transmission/engine combo has been used in many GM makes for a lot of years and has proven to be very reliable.
These are very quick, smooth, good looking, safe cars.
broncodave has had some sort of transmission glitch, but doesn't know the cause. I've viewed his posts here and other GP boards and something doesn't quite add up with his problems outside of the claim that his tranny wouldn't shift into 4th gear. He's been posting for two years on another GP board. AAMCO told him they wanted to put in a new trans as did his dealer well after his warranty was up. Still don't know the cause (why wouldn't the GM dealer or AAMCO tell him the cause?). There's a piece of this story that he's not telling us.
First, I am not a transmission engineer. If I was, I would have done the work myself.
(why wouldn't the GM dealer or AAMCO tell him the cause?).
Neither GM nor AAMCO was able to tell what caused the problem. The transmission suffered a catastrophic failure that ruined all of the soft parts and the torque converter. A complete overhaul was necessary. Both the dealer and AAMCO confirmed it. The symptom was the car would not shift into 4th gear. What caused it could have been any number of things. The transmission was so screwed that they couldn't be sure.
I offered on numerous occasions to meet with GM and let them examine the parts. GM has refused. Would you like to examine the parts and make a conclusion? That is the only part of the Grand Prix I have left other than the hole in my wallet. Maybe then you could tell me what part of the story that I have left out because I sure don't know of one.
My next post will be a copy of my first letter to GM. You read it and then post back on what I may be holding back.
Mr. John F. Smith, Jr.
CEO and President
General Motors Corporation
3044 W. Grand Blvd.
Detroit, MI 48202
Dear Mr. Smith:
The purpose of this letter is to inform you about the repairs to the transmission of my 1997 Pontiac Grand Prix and seek reimbursement for the repairs. Up until this month I was pleased with my Grand Prix. However, as you can tell from the enclosures I am very disappointed with the durability of the car, specifically the transmission.
Before I detail the problem with the transmission, I wish to provide you with some personal information so that I am not just "another angry face". I am 24 years old. This is my first car that I have purchased completely on my own. I am a third generation GM car owner. Both sides of my grandparents drove GM cars and my parents have always owned GM cars. I guess you could say I grew up in a GM family. My first car was a Chevy Beretta. I drove this car from high school, through college, and during my first year as a working accountant. I took my future wife out on our first date in that car. I will be married the 25th of this month and she owns a Pontiac Sunfire. Her parents are GM owners too. Like most cars, the Beretta had accumulated high mileage. I had two choices. I could spend the money to have the routine high mileage maintenance performed or I could buy a new car. Since my parents own a 1994 Grand Prix, I looked into the GT coupe. I purchased the car in October of 1996. Since I live a distance from my office one of the major factors in purchasing the car was durability. Shortly after the purchase of the Grand Prix I opened a GM credit card account to accumulate money for my next car. This would probably be a family car. As you can tell, my family and myself have been loyal GM car owners.
Now my loyalty has been shaken. Consumer Reports stated " The Grand Prix is a good value, considering what’s included in the price, if it proves reliable". It has not proven reliable. I have had the transmission on the Grand Prix overhauled at only 52 thousand miles. The total cost of this was $1,786.10 This is an extraordinary amount of money to pay for a major repair on a car that was not even two years old. I have to question if this is how GM is building their cars? This was a premature failure due to a defect with the GM made transmission. I should not have to pay for a major repair so soon after the warranty has expired. This reflects poorly on Pontiac to have made a vehicle that needs such an expensive and major repair with only 52 thousand miles on it. For this reason, I am seeking Pontiac to reimburse me for the work that had to be done on the car. I have demonstrated product loyalty now I am asking for Pontiac to stand behind its product not because it has to, but because it is the right thing to do.
As you can see from the receipt of the transmission bill, I had to take the car to an AAMCO dealer since the Pontiac dealer that I purchased the car from could not repair the car. I took the car to the dealership for a diagnosis. The car would not shift into 4th gear at freeway speed. When I received a call from the service representative, I was informed that the entire transmission needed to be replaced for a cost of $2,700.00. Naturally, a car with 52 thousand miles on it should not be having a complete transmission replaced, so I began to press for a more detailed explanation of the problem. It was then suggested that I take the car elsewhere if I did not want the transmission replaced. I picked up the car later that morning. I again pressed as to why the transmission could not be repaired instead of a total replacement. It was finally admitted to me that the dealership does not have a technician that is competent in repairing a transmission. It appears that the dealership would rather replace a transmission at a huge cost than be forthright with a customer that it’s technician cannot repair the car. This is misleading and unethical. This too, casts a poor reflection upon Pontiac and General Motors. To add insult, my oil was mysteriously changed. I was very specific as to why I brought the car in for service. I even left a note. No where was a oil change mentioned. This once again calls questions to competence. I bring in the car to have the transmission looked at and the oil gets changed? Would you want your car fixed by a dealership that demonstrates such incompetence? I have contacted the owner of the dealership and I am awaiting his response. For the above reasons, I did not have the work done at a Pontiac dealership. For the reasons stated above, the fact that the car was not repaired at a dealership should not be a reason for denying me reimbursement for the repairs.
I am very disappointed with my car. A car that cost $23 thousand dollars should last longer than a Yugo. To have to replace the torque converter and all soft parts and some of the hard parts of the transmission this soon is unacceptable. The transmission was defective from mile 1 and it just became symptomatic at 52 thousand miles. It is still a defective. Mileage should not matter. Your competitor, Toyota has fixed defects with its exhaust manifolds free of charge with as many as 120 thousand miles on a car. This was not a recall but a company standing behind the product it sells. Is it any wonder why the Toyota Camry is such a great selling car?
It is amazing to me that General Motors has been able to design spark plugs and engine coolant that do not need servicing for 100 thousand miles. It is unacceptable that a transmission should not last as long. When the Grand Prix was modified for 1997, Pontiac "talked up" the fact that the new engine would contain more torque than horsepower. In the ’96 models, a 3.4L V6 with 210 HP was the upgrade engine. I wonder if this was a wise engineering decision. It would appear that the engine has too much torque for the transmission to handle. This is the opinion of the mechanic who has worked on 8 other Grand Prix’s including mine. I have some of the original parts of the transmission. One part in particular shows metal to metal abrasions, warping caused by a forceful impact and scoring that should not occur. I will be more than happy to meet with an engineer to show the parts of the transmission. However, I do not wish to meet with anyone that does not have the empowerment to settle this problem. My time is important and I have already been inconvenienced too much with this problem as it is. With the torque converter also having to be replaced it leads me to believe that Pontiac has a problem.
I call your attention to the enclosures that came with this letter. The first exhibit (labeled 1) is the transmission bill. As I am sure you are aware, the Internet is a powerful tool that has global appeal. I call your attention to the web site, www.GrandPrix.net. This site is a Grand Prix owners site. Over 125 thousand people have visited this site. Under the "GP Problems" section I have posted the enclosed. In response to this message I have received messages from other owners. They too have had similar problems. Most of them were fortunate to still be covered under warranty. They are awaiting the outcome of this situation as well. Next, you will find Exhibit 3a-d. These are the Technical Service Bulletins related to the transmissions. Review of these TSB’s leads me to believe that Pontiac is aware of a problem. After that you will find the postings on GrandPrix.net of other Grand Prix owners that have had transmission problems. Finally, you will find the Consumer Reports summary page for the 1997 Grand Prix.
As you can tell below I have decided to copy many organizations in on this letter. I have not filed a complaint with the Better Business Bureau at this point. I feel it best at this time, however, to copy them in on this situation. I am hoping that I do not have to file a complaint with them. I am also copying Consumer Reports on this problem as well since their article questions the reliability of the car. I am also copying various consumer and government agencies as they should be aware of a vehicle that has a premature failure due to a possible defect.
Mr. Smith, I want to be perfectly clear, I will not stop until this situation is resolved. As I am sure you are aware, the conventional wisdom in the auto industry is that it takes 10 years to "repair" a dissatisfied customer. The best advertisement for product is a satisfied customer. Right now I cannot offer an advertisement for the Grand Prix. I have read recently that General Motors has lost market share. I wonder if problems like I have had are the reason why. I would like very much to e-mail everyone and post messages on Internet sites that Pontiac did the right thing and stood by their product. If this situation is satisfied, I will do just that. I hope very much that your action will allow me to do so. Please contact me to resolve this situation. I will be on my wedding/honeymoon from September 22nd to October 3rd. As you can see this could not have happened at a worse time. I now head to my wedding and new home $1,786.10 lighter in the wallet due to a car that should not have major problems. I eagerly await your response.
First and foremost, I "skimmed" the above letter, didn't read it through and through. My guess is neither did GM.
Second, if someone wanted to charge me $1,700 for any product or service, I'd want to know why it failed and exactly why their solution fixes it. To simply say that you are not technical is acting like an ostrich....putting your head in the sand. If, as you say, that the transmission was defective from "mile 1", then you should have had it serviced at "mile 1".
Third, you are negotiating from a position of weakness. Your warranty was up. Your dealer had no responsibility whatsoever to you. What you wanted was some sort of relief for the repair. What you should have done was appeal to the dealer to keep you as a customer by speaking to GM on your behalf for partial relief for the repair bill in a calm, respectful way. They are the ones with the power (remember, your warranty was up). What you did was try to "bully" your way to get what you wanted. The response of the dealer/GM (or lack of one) is not unexpected in this case.
I repeat, since your trans was experiencing difficulties from the very beginning as you claim, you should have had it repaired while it was still in warranty.
A faulty transmission doesn't last 52K miles, unless it was abused over time.
My guess is that your dealer didn't respond to your satisfaction becuase your demands were unreasonable (give me a new transmission after my warranty has been up for almost 20K miles or I'm going to whine and whine and whine).
My guess is that the BBB didn't do much with your case since you were out of warranty and you gave no culpable reason to your dealer or GM to make an exception.
First, I did ask about what caused the failure. AAMCO said that the failure was catastrophic and because there was so much damage it was not possible to tell what lead to the problem.
Second, what I was saying in the first letter is that the transmission was defective (design flaw)from day one. In other words, GM put a defective car on the market. It was SYMPTOMATIC at 52K. There was never ANY indication of a problem until it happened. Therefore, it could not have been fixed before.
Here is an excerpt from my final letter to GM and the dealer after I purchased the Honda:
"Before I left, I asked that a call be put in to General Motors about the transmission. Mr. Pappas stated, "we haven't been able to fix them yet. GM doesn't even know what is wrong with them or how to fix them." No assistance was ever offered in verifying a manufacturing defect or calling General Motors for an appropriate repair procedure. His only comment was "You call GM." This was completely wrong. This statement led me to take the car to AAMCO and had the transmission overhauled. After all, if GM doesn't know what is wrong with them, then shouldn't I go elsewhere?"
Does this sound like to you that I was unreasonable? Does that sound like I was trying to "bully" the dealer?
Like I said in all of the other posts, it was the dealer that screwed me first by not following policy and then GM by backing the dealer when he was wrong. Yes, I knew the warranty was up I knew what position I was in. I like Ronald Reagan would rather bargin from a position of strength. I also knew that GM had replaced transmissions under "goodwill adjustments" as well. That is exactly what I was looking for: a reduction in cost.
The BBB reference was for the dealer as somehow he thought I wanted an oil change to go with the transmission problem. I copied him in on the letter.
Tomorrow I will post my final letters as I don't have them on disk with me. I will also post GM's form letters. That way you can read them all, know all the facts and then pass judgement if you wish.
Now for my experience. I totally agree with you that the problem was there from day 1. I had a 99 GP GT Sedan that I also bought brand new as my first car. My family is deeply GM as multiple members have been or are still employees. My GP was in the shop for over 20 business days the first year, not counting the 45 calendar days for bodywork (body shop was inept). I had a new transmission put in, drove it out of the service department and the driveability problem was still there. Next day I had a flat tire (nail). That was not the dealer's fault though because they admitted to flattening the right front not right rear. I digress, after the new transmission was already in they found out, by driving the car with a Tech 1 or 2 attached that the torque converter was engaging and disengaging repeatedly while shifting from 3rd to 4th. This was tearing the tranny to pieces. They downloaded new software to the computer and the problem was fixed.
I had a sit down with the dealer's service manager and the GM district service manager. They spent 2 hours explaining to me that every car has problems and I am just hung up on the past problems. Suffice it to say I was not happy, I pulled rank (which I did NOT want to do) and got the car bought back.
Because of the inept local dealer I did not buy another GP and instead bought a Catera (which has been great).
This is only anecdotal evidence, but I do think there is a problem with the transmission system in the GPs that may or may not be fixed in 2000. It is very hard to know because for the last three years Pontiac/GM has refused to admit that a problem existed.
My sympathy goes out to you Dave, you got bent over a barrel and the only thing I can tell you is what I told the GM rep, "I can only vote with my money. You will not listen to me now, but 40+ years of future car buying will speak for itself."
Broncodave, in your situation, the dealer had no idea what went wrong. That's unacceptable. I would have hauled it to another dealer to get a better answer. AAMCO has been invetigated by the FTC for trying to put a new or overhauled transmission in just about every car that comes in to their shops, whether faulty or not. Fact is, your original dealer didn't feel compelled (because you were out of warranty and they weren't looking for your repeat business) to give you a straight answer. They are a bad dealer and left you with a bad ownership experience. If, as the transmission guys said, that your trans wouldn't shift into 4th gear was caused by some catastrophe, then every catastrophic event has to have some cause. How else would you know how to keep the problem from happening again, if you don't know the cause?
I would be that if the dealer told you what went wrong and what they were going to do to fix it AND appealed to GM on your behalf with some sort of relief, your story would be different.
mattchalmers--I had a buyback from BMW several yers ago. Had to fight tooth and nail to get it done, but I went through arbitration to "win the day". I haven't bought another BMW since then, but I don't condemn the brand, just the dealer. If the dealer is competent enough to fix problems, then your buyback, my buyback wouldn't have been neccessary.
I'll repeat what I've said before. GM has put millions of the 3.8L/4 speed trannys (the only way they come) on the road. They put the same combo in the GPs. This is a proven design. Leave it to an inept dealer to srew something up.
That's why I shop the dealer and much as I shop for the car or the price.
granphicguy-- At the point in time I was ready to buy another GM despite the transmission problem. The dealer had he done right would have earned repeat business.
mattchalmers-- you couldn't be more right about GM denying anything is wrong.
I hold the dealer accountable for not following procedure and GM for backing up the dealer when he was wrong. It all come down to who owns the issue. The dealer says "we just sell them". GM says "we just build them". In the end, it is the customer that looses.
My next post is my final letter to the owner of the dealership. If you never read another one of my posts then please read this next one; it will explain a lot.
I will grant you, that there seems to be inordinate amount of "below acceptable" dealerships that operate in this country. I think that some of the "old thought" dealerships out there still exist that believe their responsibility for their products and services begins and ends when you drive the car off the lot. They are ususally easy to spot from the way they handle the sales end of things.
If they seem to "churn" through their sales people quickly, then it is a more than even bet that they do so in the service area, too. Ususally, if they have a "seasoned" sales and service staff, it means that they care about their employees and it turn, their customers.
There is a Pontiac dealer in my town that has been in business and in the same family for almost 60 years. None of their sales folks have been there more than 6 months (that's why I've never bought a car from them).
Good luck with your new car (what'd you get?) and stop back from time to time and tell us how you're doing.
You are right about the dealerships. I went to no fewer than 5 different Honda dealerships before I purchased the Accord. Three of them I wouldn't even consider buying from because they were unhelpful in the selling process. I knew if I ever had a problem they would not address it. It isn't just GM that has crappy dealers.
The dealership that I purchased the Accord from was great. I got a quote over the web and came in for the test drive. The only other thing to decide was the value of the Grand Prix for the trade-in. I got a good value based on Kelly Blue Book and was in the Accord in less than 2 hours. I really liked the fact that the purchase price was set before I walked in the door. I got a pretty good deal too $100 over true invoice.
As part of my purchase I requested to have a face to face meeting with the service manager before I signed on the dotted line. I told him what my expections are if I ever came in with a problem. He sat back and smiled and said "Is that why you aren't buying another Pontiac? I told him it was. He said "they must have really done you wrong to come in here and talk to me before you purchased. I haven't seen a customer your age do that before."
Live and learn I guess. As a side note, I never did hear from the dealer or GM after my last letter but I didn't expect to either.
She's younger than I am (by a substantial margin) and thinks I'm a dink for buying a "spots car" (she thinks anything with big tires is a sports car) at my advanced age (early 40s). Sigh!!!!!!!
All you can do Dave is vote with your dollars and your feet. Find a dealer that will treat you right that has a quality product and you should be fine. As for Honda, no doubt about quality, if you got a good dealer you should be fine.
Good luck.
Or about any other changes for 2001?
Also, I read that GM is redoing the Kansas Plant where the Grand Prix (and Intrigue) are made. So it looks like new Models for 2003 and they will use a the Epsilon platform.
tie rod end in 10k miles and 8 months. Getting a little concerned about long term reliability. I have noticed when shifting into drive while care is rolling backwards will generate a real skip in the transmission. The service manager said they all do that. Anyone else noticed this ?
Speaking of trannys, mine went out at 26k--twice. Yes, I now have a new tranny, but it makes you wonder a) when it'll go out again and, b) what's next?
There is still one thing the dealer(s) have not been able to correct. When driving and slowing down to turn or stop, at about 17mph we hear a sucking/winning noise. It is very annoying.
We have even contacted Pontiac direct about all the problems we have had. They have blown us off since day one. And even suggested we contact the attorney generals office.
Any one have/had a similar problem? Suggestions? How do we get them to buy the car back?
sps
What's the best way to clean this? Any "non-invasive" ideas to clean that area without removing the taillight assembly? If not, can I as a non-mechanic remove the assembly myself? How? I could not find anything about this in the manual except for changing the bulb.
Thanks.
What do you mean by water damage? Here is a list of the items we have had fixed:
Oil leak twice
rear shock
radio speaker
transmission leak from the tork converter
fan replaced
transmission oil leak from line
front end alignment
front end cluck (different from alignment)
Winning noise at 17mph decel
Battery replace
This list may not seem very long, but we have had it in many times for the same things. We have had it in five times for the winning noise and the last time they said it was gear noise. I don't believe it. One person who knows car pretty well thought it might be the tork converter. Since the noise only comes after it is warm. My concern is that every time we take it in that they may have cause other problems with it. Some dealerships are hard to trust. If we can fix this last winning/sucking noise we might keep the car since everything is fixed, now.
sps (new to this web site)
Have they changed the trans fluid. Maybe dirt or water got into the transmission and might be causing the odd noises.
One person, who is familiar with cars because he works for GM, thought the noise was coming from the tork converter. He suggested this even before I told him about have the seal replaced.
Somehow I am convinced the dealership does know what the problem is and they do not want to put the man hours in. Then again, it is still under warranty and they would get paid.
The noise only happens when the car is warm - for example when we get off the highway.
sps
Brother, if you have the bucks, go with the T/A. Those things are awesome!!!!!
I love my 2000 Grand Prix GT, but it's not in the same league with the T/A. If you can afford the initial investment, don't mind buying premium gas (would also be true for the other cars you mentioned, though, come to think of it), and don't mind spending about $300.00 a piece on tires that only last 25-30K miles, then definitely go with the T/A.
And, be sure to get the 6-speed manual, of course.
Black would be totally awesome, like the one in the comercial that eats the car in front of it at the stoplight.
Oh well, let us know what you end up with.
Like I said, I love my GP GT, but I didn't get the GTP because of its requirement for premium gas. I sort of wish I had, though. Premium is usually only 20 cents per gallon higher than regular, and as high as the gas prices are now, what's another 20 cents per gallon gonna matter?
tsjay
Bonneville SSEi's styling is not as clean as that of the Grand Prix GTP. And it is not as quick. However the Bonneville might be more solid.
I test drove the Bonneville SLE and was not crazy about some of its interior components.
It sure would be nice if they put 12-way power seats from the SSEi into the GTP.
I've always been a coupe person, (being no kids and all) and I don't think I'd like the ride it gives (maybe in another 20 years). I do have to agree though, it would be nice if they put the 12 way adjustment in the GP - we'll see what they come up with for 2001...I'm planning on putting about 15k down, so, I should be able to get every goody they have to offer and still only finance about 15k or so. Thank you again!
You can see this now. And this is official. GM provides the preview info for fleet buyers on the following site:
http://www.gmfleet.com/na/us/productpreview/car/index.htm
One other thing to consider is that the GPis front wheel drive, as is the Bonnie. The Trans Am isa rear wheel drive. Not an issue in a sunny place like Vegas or LA, but if you live someplace with weather, it might be a consideration.
Good luck!
SISTER (sorry 'bout the "Brother" in my first post, don't let the rear wheel drive stop you on the T/A. Come on now, how many days are the roads really that slick? Don't they get right on them with snowplows and salt trucks? On those worst days, can't you stay home or take public transportation, or ride with someone else?
If you have the bucks. and it sounds like with your down payment you do, the go for the gusto, and get the T/A!!!!!
A REAL sports car has rear wheel drive and a manual transmission.
The GTP's sound pretty good for six cylinder engines, but there's no comparison with the deep, throaty rumble of the T/A's LS-1 V8.
Live it up, woman, and go with the T/A! (and get the 6-speed tranny).
Ok, I get carried away. It's your money, and you ought to get what YOU want. Test drive all the models that you think you would like and then when you think you know what you want, find some people that own them and ask their opinions. You can check the newsgroups here in Town Hall, but remember, the articles are skewed to the negative side, because people that are unhappy are many times more likely to post articles than those who are happy.
Be sure and let us know what you end up with.
Good luck, and I hope you are thrilled to death with whatever you buy and that it turns out to be a great vehicle over the long run.
tsjay
SISTER (sorry 'bout the "Brother" in my first post, don't let the rear wheel drive stop you on the T/A. Come on now, how many days are the roads really that slick? Don't they get right on them with snowplows and salt trucks? On those worst days, can't you stay home or take public transportation, or ride with someone else?
If you have the bucks. and it sounds like with your down payment you do, the go for the gusto, and get the T/A!!!!!
A REAL sports car has rear wheel drive and a manual transmission.
The GTP's sound pretty good for six cylinder engines, but there's no comparison with the deep, throaty rumble of the T/A's LS-1 V8.
Live it up, woman, and go with the T/A! (and get the 6-speed tranny).
Ok, I get carried away. It's your money, and you ought to get what YOU want. Test drive all the models that you think you would like and then when you think you know what you want, find some people that own them and ask their opinions. You can check the newsgroups here in Town Hall, but remember, the articles are skewed to the negative side, because people that are unhappy are many times more likely to post articles than those who are happy.
Be sure and let us know what you end up with.
Good luck, and I hope you are thrilled to death with whatever you buy and that it turns out to be a great vehicle over the long run.
tsjay
Currently, due to some mechanical design differences, the Camaro is supposed to be the faster car, so iftis is your thing, get the Camaro.
I found, after buying a GTP, that I didn't need any more power. But you know what? I still WANT more power. If you don't need a FWD r carrying room, a hotrod would be pretty cool...