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Toyota Prius (First Generation)

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  • gckorngckorn Member Posts: 45
    BUSINESSWEEK ONLINE:
    AUGUST 14, 2000 ISSUE

    SPECIAL REPORT

    Commentary: The Japanese Are Making the Right Bet on Hybrids

    When the subject of greener cars comes up, Detroit always has the same answer: Americans won't buy them. U.S. motorists, the industry says, want the broad-shouldered, gas-hungry hulks that are usually shown screaming across the landscapes environmentalists fight to protect. Besides, carmakers say, we can't get the mileage up to where environmentalists want it--the technology isn't there.

    Uh-oh. Here come a couple of cool, high-tech cars that customers want to buy. These gas-electric hybrids not only deliver snappy performance but also get up to 65 miles per gallon. When Detroit was formulating its denunciation of green cars, it apparently forgot to send the memo to Japan. Toyota Motor Corp. (TM) and Honda Motor Co. (HMC) accomplished what Detroit said was impossible. And environmentalists are giddy.

    ''It's everything we can do to bite our tongues and not say, 'We told you so,''' says Daniel F. Becker, director of the Sierra Club's global warming and energy program. ''We're very enthused about hybrid cars and think that they are the wave of the present.'' The Sierra Club, which had never in its 108-year history honored a product, created an award for excellence in environmental engineering and gave it to both Honda's Insight and Toyota's Prius.

    COSTLY REBATES. The critical issue for environmentalists is whether hybrids can help reduce the threat of global warming. All gas-burning cars emit carbon dioxide, one of the principal culprits. Better mileage means fewer emissions. American cars and trucks burn 120 billion gallons of gasoline a year, producing more than 1 billion tons of carbon dioxide, according to the Sierra Club. Part of the problem is the cars Americans drive. The Sierra Club calculated that the colossal Ford Motor Corp. (F). Excursion sport-utility vehicle is responsible for 134 tons of carbon dioxide during a 124,000-mile lifetime. A Honda Insight driven the same distance generates only 25 tons.

    Hybrid cars offer a painless way to cut carbon dioxide emissions. But they can't do it fast enough. Nations will be meeting at The Hague in November to consider further progress toward reducing carbon dioxide emissions. And the U.S. will be under pressure to take action. But hybrid vehicles are not likely to grab a big share of the U.S. market for at least another decade.

    The reason is that Honda and Toyota are giving consumers a hidden, costly rebate with each hybrid car they sell. Analysts estimate that Honda is losing $8,000 on each Insight. Toyota is also believed to be subsidizing each Prius. The auto makers won't make a bigger push to sell hybrids until those costs come down. ''I think with luck we can get to a million or so vehicles over a decade,'' says John M. DeCicco, a mechanical engineer and auto-policy specialist at the American Council for an Energy Efficient Economy in Washington. ''I don't see the costs coming down fast enough'' to sell any more than that.

    In the meantime, if the U.S. wants to cut its emissions, it must boost the fuel efficiency of conventional cars, minivans, and light trucks. A gas tax is one way to do that. It would cut gasoline use--thereby reducing carbon dioxide emissions. It would encourage moves to alternative fuels, reduce dependence on foreign oil, and make hybrid cars far more attractive. The tax could be offset with a reduction in income taxes, say, so that it would end up costing the public nothing. It's a rational solution--the kind that economists like. But it has no chance of adoption in Washington's antitax climate.

    An alternative is to raise fuel-economy standards. This strategy has been proven to work. The standards were tightened in the early 1980s, and the actual fuel economy of cars and light trucks rose to an average 26 miles per gallon. But the auto industry blocked any further attempt to change the standards. And now the average fuel economy of U.S. cars and light trucks has fallen back to where it was in 1980, shortly after the system was established (chart).

    U.S. auto makers are betting they can continue to block tougher fuel-economy standards and delay the arrival of greener cars and trucks. With the Insight and the Prius, Honda and Toyota are making a different bet. They are positioning themselves as the carmakers of the future. They are getting valuable experience in the production of sleek, affordable, environmentally friendly cars. That makes it easy for environmentalists to take sides.

    By Paul Raeburn
    Senior Writer Raeburn covers science and the environment.
  • gckorngckorn Member Posts: 45
    BUSINESSWEEK ONLINE:
    AUGUST 14, 2000 ISSUE

    SPECIAL REPORT

    Q&A with Thomas Elliott

    A talk with North American Honda's Thomas Elliott

    Detroit's latest buzz is the jockeying between truck kingpins Ford Motor Co. and General Motors Corp. for bragging rights as America's most eco-friendly car company. Sure, both are scrambling to bring out gas-electric hybrid-powered cars and trucks, while racing to boost fuel economy of their thirstiest pickups and sport utilities. But so far, they're just playing catch-up to Japanese rivals, Toyota Motor Corp. and Honda Motor Co.

    Honda has spearheaded the U.S. move to cleaner, more efficient cars, first by making its bread-and-butter Civics and Accords ultra-clean, then by being first to market with the next generation of eco-cars, the gas-electric hybrids. In January, Honda launched the Insight two-seater, whose 65-mile-per-gallon fuel economy beats any other vehicle on the road. Already, consumers have snapped up some 2,000 of the stylish Insights, prompting the company to double this year's sales goal to 8,000 cars. So far, its only rival for fuel-economy prowess is the just-introduced Toyota Prius, a five-seat compact.

    Ultimately, hydrogen-powered engines are a good bet to take over American highways. But until that technology is perfected, cleaning up internal-combustion engines is the industry's goal. Hybrids, which use electric motors to enhance the power of small, fuel-efficient, gas-driven engines to match the performance of conventional cars, appear to be the best way to do that.

    Thomas G. Elliott, executive vice-president of North American Honda, spoke with Business Week's David Welch about why hybrids will become more commonplace and what the future of cleaner, more efficient cars will look like. Edited excerpts of their conversation follow:

    Q: Why hybrids and why now?
    A: We see the gas-electric hybrid in the near and medium term as the technology that could address environmental and fuel-economy concerns. Hybrids are the kind of car that most consumers can live with. The technology is almost transparent to them.

    Q: Looking at your plans for future hybrids and those of Toyota, Ford, and GM, it seems hybrids could hit volumes of at least 100,000 a year by 2004. Is it realistic to think that the technology will catch on to sell such numbers?
    A: It sounds reasonable to me. Selling 100,000 as an industry is easily attained by 2004 and maybe exceeded.

    Q: So does that mean we're in the age of the hybrid?
    A: I think we're right on the tip of it. You're going to see more versions coming.

    Q: The Insight has been pretty successful, but critics call it an underpowered two-seater with limited market appeal. What's next?
    A: The Insight is a first step for Honda. It was done to look at all aspects. The new hybrid will come off the Civic platform in Japan next year and in the U.S. some time after that.

    Q: Toyota plans to sell 12,000 units of the Prius in the first year. What kind of volume can you do with a more mainstream hybrid vehicle?
    A: Our next step will be significantly higher than that in terms of volume. Based on the acceptance of the Insight, there's greater growth potential. 20,000 is not an unreasonable number.

    Q: You are losing money on this car. Can hybrid technology be sold profitably?
    A: If we do enough volume, it can be done at a profit.

    Q: Do consumers care enough about fuel economy and the environment to really make hybrids mainstream?
    A: I don't think you can sell cars solely on environmental technology. If you're talking about mass-volume cars, you have to address the primary issues. We do feel that fuel economy and clean air will become more important.

    Q: What kind of marketing buzz are you getting from these cars?
    A: If you want to differentiate yourself, one way to do it is with emissions and fuel economy. What Honda does in North America can be carried globally.

    Q: I've heard that Honda's push to cast an image as the industry's technology leader is part of a larger plan to contest for top market share in the U.S. many decades from now. That sounds nice, but is it realistic?
    A: I've been here for 30 years. Back then, we were selling 3,000 cars. Now, we're selling 1.1 million. I do think Honda has the potential of becoming one of the top three sellers in the U.S.
  • ontariocapriusontariocaprius Member Posts: 16
    Bought the new 2000 Saturn Wagon LW1 in March, turned out it had a recall which they didn't bother notifying us of until we found out by accident 3 months later. From day one the Saturn dealer screwed up with multiple purchasing paperwork errors, telling us defects were normal etc etc. Conclusion came when we contacted the Canadian Television Network, they covered our story on several programs airing it to millions of viewers and Saturn agreed they screwed up, gave us our money back and we bought the Prius.

    Everything Toyota did for us was what we had expected but never got from Saturn. Some of the cult-like members over on the Saturn chat group didn't like us complaining, others were supportive because we weren't at fault. Even when a Saturn employee listening in on one of my conversations with another Saturn employee said "the little prick" after he thought we were disconnected but was caught on my tape recording. She deserves to be fired and we shall see what happens.

    Enough of that saga, we love our Prius. First ones to take possession at the Burlington Toyota Dealership in Ontario, Canada. Dealer gave us their showroom car because we had to return the Saturn quickly. Excellent sales service, even gave us an expensive gift basket of Laura Secord Chocolates and took a photo.

    I just found this board and know it is mostly U.S. owners but the cars are very similar. I am finding some of the differences like we don't have 'traction control' as mentioned on the U.S. Toyota site, or side air bags mentioned in the manual.

    ONLY thing I would add to the car is a remote key fob that can open the trunk. Having to use the key when arms are full of groceries is difficult for me.

    If you want to learn more about our Saturn story come visit http://people.becon.org/~djenning

    I plan on making the Canadian Saturn Lemon Car webpage a submenu and changing the main page to the story about our Prius.

    P.S. Anybody know how to reprogram the door locks to automatically lock when you start to drive? The model we test drove did that, but our car doesn't. On our Saturn it was an option we could program ourselves but the Prius ManualS don't cover it.

    Looking for many happy years as a Toyota owner.
  • wenyuewenyue Member Posts: 558
    Thanks for the info and owner's review, welcome to the Toyota family. ;)
  • ontariocapriusontariocaprius Member Posts: 16
    Cruise control was standard on the Canadian one, not sure why the U.S one doesn't have it.

    U.S. site talks about "Traction Control", Toyota Canada said not on mine.

    Side air bags listed in owners manual but not on my car, not even an option.

    Lastly, Single Cd was standard on mine but the 6 cd is a 550.00 CAD option.

    Just tried out the U.S. prius chat on the Toyota site, asking about the automatically locking doors when you start driving. They told me to talk to the dealer. Seems to be a little bit of confusion over what this car is about, and what its features are but then it is so new.
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    This is a feature that all the Prius' have but Toyota really doesn't want us talking about it because it is not the same thing as you normally thing of for this feature. It is not even mentioned in the literature on the vehicle. What TC does is monitor the wheels. When the wheels begin to move faster than the vehicle can move, a normal system does one of tow things or both. It can apply the brakes to the slipping wheel or reduce engine power or both. The Prius only reduces engine power. It is not as effective as systems that also use brakes but it is better than nothing. I am sure the Canadian version has this as well.
  • ontariocapriusontariocaprius Member Posts: 16
    The U.S. Toyota website DOES mention it "The vehicle is equipped with an anti-lock brake system, a traction control system....",

    but no mention in Canada. In fact this is the response I got from Toyota Canada "Thank you for your most recent correspondence.

    Further to your inquiry, we wish to confirm that traction control is NOT an
    option or a feature on the Prius. We would like to explain that market
    trends are closely studied to give us a better idea of what vehicle
    features are in demand. Then based on our findings, our Product Planning
    Division is able to choose the vehicle options that best suit the needs of
    the buying public.

    Thank you again for writing.

    Sincerely,
    Tony Iafolla
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    In the training class I was at, they claimed the car had to have this in order to deal with so much torque generated at low RPM by the electiric motor. We were also told that this would not be publicized in order to avoid confusion with the more sophisticated system on other cars like the V6 Camry. My hunch is the Canadian Toyota people are referring to the regular type of TRACS where the brakes are also used.
  • ontariocapriusontariocaprius Member Posts: 16
    Too bad they can't find a way to market and mention it. I was ready to pay 500.00 for the 'stability assistance' option on an S40. Guess it really doesn't matter what they call it, whether they acknowledge it has it, so long as it does the job.

    Toyota Canada later did acknowledge the car had some electronics to prevent wheel spin, suppose that is the same thing in the end. :)
  • gckorngckorn Member Posts: 45
    KRTBN Knight-Ridder Tribune Business News: Detroit Free Press - Michigan

    Wednesday, August 9, 2000

    Detroit Free Press Doron Levin Column
    Doron Levin

    TRAVERSE CITY, Mich.--HONDA LEADS IN DEVELOPING CLEAN ENGINE:

    Honda Motor Co.'s penchant for inventing cleaner engines fueled by ever smaller amounts of energy hasn't faded a bit.

    While General Motors Corp. and the Ford Motor Co. quibble over which builds the most efficient pickups and sport-utility vehicles, Honda is
    preparing to introduce its hybrid engine technology into mass-market cars next year.

    GM and Ford have, to be sure, markedly improved engine performance in terms of cleanliness and efficiency. Yet both Detroit automakers still
    lag far behind the two top competitors from Japan, Honda and Toyota.

    Honda's aluminum-body Insight, powered by a gasoline engine and battery-driven electric motor, went on sale in January, boasting 61
    miles per gallon in the city and 70 m.p.g. on the highway. I've driven the car, which was impressive.

    The same technology goes into Honda's Civic next year, though the mile-per-gallon figure hasn't been announced.

    "Our goal is to beat Prius" from Toyota, Honda spokesman Koji Watanabe said, implying that the new Civic will average at least 50 m.p.g. A
    four-door Civic with manual transmission and traditional gasoline engine now gets about 35 m.p.g., on average.

    Toyota is Honda's only serious technological competitor in the fuel efficiency race these days. Prius, Toyota's first hybrid car in the
    United States, averages 53 m.p.g. in the city and 48 on the highway, and it has four seats instead of two.

    Honda's Insight, which beat Toyota by a couple of months, has turned out to be a bigger hit with U.S. drivers than Honda had hoped, Kazuhiko
    Tsunoda, chief engineer for Honda research and development, told the University of Michigan's annual conference of carmakers and suppliers
    near Traverse City on Tuesday.

    Tsunoda, whose expertise in aluminum fabrication has roots in Honda's motorcycle racing program, knows that some counterparts in the industry
    speculate that the Insight and what it represents are overblown.

    "I have heard it said that Insight is just a rolling laboratory," he said. But Tsunoda insisted it is not just an experiment.

    Honda originally said it hoped to sell 4,000 Insights this year. Based on initial sales and reactions from customers, Honda is raising
    its projection to 6,500, fulfilling the company's goal to sell affordable, environmentally friendly vehicles that also are fun to drive. "We must make cleaner cars that people actually want to buy," Tsunoda said.

    I'm sure Tsunoda's comment wasn't meant as a dig at GM's battery-powered EV1, an environmentally friendly, all-electric vehicle that, sadly, went on sale in California and has been a humiliating flop.

    Nevertheless, it's hard not to contrast the technological pace of Honda with Ford and GM's much-publicized hair-pulling match. Ford grabbed headlines by announcing it will improve light-truck fuel efficiency 25 percent in a couple of years. GM rebutted Ford by, among other things, announcing its first hybrid power train in a full-size pickup, which is to appear four years from now. Ford will offer its first commercial hybrid in 2003, a year earlier than GM, in a small
    sport-utility vehicle.

    Honda, meanwhile, already is closing in on the next bold technological step for cutting engine pollutants to zero: fuel cells. Watanabe
    confirmed that Honda's first fuel-cell vehicle will go on sale in 2003.

    Honda hasn't decided whether the fuel cell will be powered by hydrogen or methanol, he said.

    Last week's dust-up might have suggested that GM and Ford are engaged in a public relations battle for the high ground in the fuel efficiency
    wars.

    Nothing could be further from the truth. There's a battle alright. But it's not about public relations. It's about engineering and technology.

    ---- INDEX REFERENCES ----

    COMPANY (TICKER): Honda Motor Co. Ltd. (Ads); Honda Motor Co. Ltd.; General Motors Corp.; Ford Motor Co. (HMC J.HMC GM F)
  • nancyartnancyart Member Posts: 3
    We submitted our order for our Prius mid July, so I guess we'll get it sometime late September. I'm very excited. I'd like to read more from new owners as the cars get distributed.
    I'm still quizzical about the CD player. We opted for the $335 version, and the dealer thinks it could be a 5 disc player (he's not sure). I've read here it would be a single disc player. Rather expensive, but I'm wondering if it will be operable by the touch screen.
    I also want to have a door molding put on to protect from inevitable dents. Would I do better to take it someplace other than Toyota for this?
    I've truly enjoyed this townhall discussion. 'Hope I'll soon be able to bring in some positive experiences myself.
  • gckorngckorn Member Posts: 45
    Nancyart, the only 2 options available are floor mats and single disc CD.

    When the car arrives at the port, you will get a phone call asking whether you want these 2 items.
  • jackyuenjackyuen Member Posts: 1
    Just wondering, for those people who ordered the prius back in June, Do you guys actually got your prius yet?

    When I order mine last week, the dealer told me that the first prius is coming in this week for the first person in line and he ordered like 2 months ago. I am number five in the queue according to the dealer but I have been told to wait until Nov before I can see mine :(
  • gckorngckorn Member Posts: 45
    Check out http://www.egroups.com There, you can see pictures of at least one person who has received his car. Also, there is reference to at least one delivery (and pictures) on the Yahoo Prius club.
  • gckorngckorn Member Posts: 45
    For ease of reference, here are those Prius pictures:

    http://www.egroups.com/files/toyota-prius/Scott%27s+Prius/ScottPrius1%2EJPG

    http://www.egroups.com/files/toyota-prius/Scott%27s+Prius/ScottPrius2%2EJPG

    http://www.egroups.com/files/toyota-prius/Scott%27s+Prius/ScottPrius3%2EJPG
  • nancyartnancyart Member Posts: 3
    Today while driving on the freeway in Northern California, I wanted to stop at a Toyota dealership to see what color demo they had. But we didn't have the time. Suddenly we were passed by a speedy little electric green Prius. Our first sighting in motion.
    We tried to follow it with our hulky van, but that Prius was going 85 mph passing other cars, during rush hour. We couldn't keep up with it. Within minutes it was out of sight. It was exciting to spot it, and we would have been envious except that we'll be in our own soon. Well, hopefully soon.
    So it looks like they'll start appearing, sort of like harbingers of a new age of vehicle transportation. Yes!
  • davidfsdavidfs Member Posts: 12
    Are there any potential or current Prius owners from Albuquerque or anywhere else in New Mexico?
  • ontariocapriusontariocaprius Member Posts: 16
    We took our Prius in to get an extra key cut and programmed, wheel locks, and program the door lock to engage when you put the car in drive. (Could have sworn the model we test drove did this).

    We had ordered the key and wheel locks when we took delivery of the car August 4th.

    (The salesman kind of scared us with a story about an owner whos angry wife threw the keys in the lake and then they had to order an new 1000.00 computer with the new set of keys since there was no other way around the immobilizer.)

    When we order the key I asked how long it would take to program the new key and was told 20 minutes.

    Anyway, back to the service visit. The dealer installed the wheel locks, no problem. But then it seem to be taking longer than expected for the other things and after the car being in service for ~1.5hours they came out and told us they were having a 2 problems.

    They said they needed to check with Toyota, but they didn't think the door locks could be programmed to autolock when put in drive. I would have bet money the other car had but after test driving sooo many cars it is all a blur needed to be cleared up with a Corona!

    Oh, and the extra key, apparently they think there is a limit of 3 keys MAXIMUM. Oooops, guess this was a good day, because we both learned something. :)
  • nancyartnancyart Member Posts: 3
    When we bought our van, it included auto door locking which was completely new to us. We found that to be extremely annoying. We were having to repeatedly unlock if the passenger(s) didn't get in within seconds. When we took the car to have an engine noise checked, the mechanic asked us to turn on the car. We were all outside the car when, of course, the car locked itself up with the keys inside and the engine running. Luckily that time my husband was with me and had another set. With a small child inside, it would have been too much. I can't think of a good reason to have those locks. Even in questionable areas of big cities, we can easily lock the car as I choose.
    I think you're better off without it. I certainly hope our Prius doesn't come with it. Best wishes...
  • ontariocapriusontariocaprius Member Posts: 16
    No I wouldn't like door locks like that either. What we have seen and owned in our previous Saturn, was a car with a settable option, in which the doors are locked automatically ONCE THE CAR IS PUT IN DRIVE and reaches ~15kph.

    It unlocks automatically upon removal of the key.

    EXCELLENT 'deterrent against carjacking etc.

    They also unlock in case of an accident automatically.
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    They shouldn't take more than 15 minutes to program them and you should be able to get more than three. Unless Toyota changed things, you can program up to 9 keys. At least this is the case with the Camry.

    Also, the cost of a new engine computer is more like $2500, not $1000. Again, this is for the Camry but I suspect the Prius would be even more. Be very careful with those keys.
  • ontariocapriusontariocaprius Member Posts: 16
    15 minutes maybe when it isn't the FIRST car they have tried it on. Some learning curve. Sure am glad we bought the 6 yr ext warranty. That should give them plenty of time to get used to doing things to the PRIUS.

    Wouldn't want to be paying an hourly rate while they 'learn' about the vehicle while having to do service.

    Toyota Canada confirmed THREE keys max, and the door lock cannot be set to autoengage. Too bad. That and the REMOTE trunk release would make the car 100% complete, but then I have cruise. :)
  • wmhpowellwmhpowell Member Posts: 15
    Is the 6 year warranty something Toyota sells or is a dealer provided "repair insurance" policy?
    Wonder what is and isn't covered? The "repair insurance" policys I have seen exclude batterys. Wonder if that means the battery pack on the Prius is covered or not.
    Best of luck with your car! Please keep the group in the loop!
    Bill Powell
  • d007078cd007078c Member Posts: 3
    After reading all the postings in this listing, there were some that believe that the LCD screen on the dashboard can be used in the future for GPS. According to the live chat on Toyota.com, my dealer and Cliff (who runs this board), the 2001 model will NOT be compatible with GPS. It will not be able to be upgraded.

    I find this unacceptable. I've been told to wait until the 2002 model. Frustrating!
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    I started this topic but Edmunds runs it. Actually, you will note that I would be surprised if the 2001 couldn't be retrofitted with the GPS. I know this is not the official line but I have a threoy about that. The PR people are not technical people. They know a lot but if it is not in their notes, they may not really know. I have spoken to Toyota PR people who don't even know what GPS stands for, let alone the difference between a DVD based system and a marine grade system.

    Toyota engineers built the car with the map and display buttons for a reason. It is reasonable to assume that the reason is because they intend to make the GPS available. If your purchase of the car depends on this, don't buy the 2001. If it is just a want or hope, sign up now while you still can.

    The other thing to consider is the cost. DVD based systems run between $1800 and $2700 right now. Simple marine grade systems with mapping cost around $400. It is reasonable to assume the factory system would come in near the $2000 mark. That is not chump change.
  • d007078cd007078c Member Posts: 3
    That pricing you gave for GPS helps the decision-making process. I thought that the resale on the 2001 model without GPS couldn't compete with the future models that have it as standard equipment. However, if they price it $2,000 above the current cost - the 2001 model can be competitive.
  • gckorngckorn Member Posts: 45
    1. Per Priusman, GPS will indeed cost about $2,000 when it is available. This sounds right as the option cost the same amount in our Odyssey and even more in my 540i.

    2. Tucson, where I live, isn't digitized yet onto GPS maps, so the absence of the GPS option isn't so significant to me. With all the other cool things going on in this car, there will still be lots of tech-stuff to play with and show off.

    3. I'm still wondering whether after-market GPS, DVD/TV and internet screens can be added to the Prius display. Time will tell.
  • d007078cd007078c Member Posts: 3
    In order to get a tax credit for an alternative energy vehicle, according to my accountant, the vehicle must be primarily powered drawing current from rechargable batteries. Only if you can get Toyota to put this in writing - that the car is primarily powered by current from recharable batteries - then you get the credit. If not - no credit is available.

    The website states primarily powered by the battery only during acceleration. All other times, the motor is used or the gas engine and battery work in tandem. It will be hard to prove that the Prius is "primarily powered by current from rechargable batteries."
  • sheinesheine Member Posts: 8
    I received my Prius on August 16. Most of my driving was on I-10 and I averaged about 50 mpg over 375 miles. Although I have held the speed down to 60 mph as directed, I have had no problems with inadequate acceleration.

    My dealer ( he is the same dealer who serves the most prolific correspondent on this page)adamantly refused to accept my Edmund's certificate. When I called the seller of the certificate, they connected me with the lawyer who handled the case. He told me what to tell the dealer but said that he could not get involved. When I called the dealer, nobody in upper management was available and I was told to leave a message on the voice mail. That evening, after getting no response, I sent them an email saying the same thing. Up to now no response. Today I called the CCC, who again connected me to the lawyer's office, but he wasn't in. As of now, I think that I will be lucky to get my $50 back. I do not intend to either waste a lot of time calling the dealer and lawyers or get involved in a lawsuit over $100.
  • ponickiponicki Member Posts: 1
    If you e-mail Toyota at prius@peoplesupport.com they will send a e-mail stating that the Prius is entitled to a tax deduction of up to $2,000 for Prius purchases completed on or before December 31, 2001
  • scott142scott142 Member Posts: 9
    I ordered my Prius early July and was told delivery would be mid-August. Then I was told it won't be for two to three months - and the dealer can't give me a specific date. Then the dealer was going to charge me above advertised MSRP, but he backed down from that after I pointed out the price Toyota was advertising.
    Frustrating to say the least!!!
  • gckorngckorn Member Posts: 45
    Sheine, please email me about that Edmunds certificate (include a number where I can reach you) and we will get to the bottom of this! See my profile for my address.
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    I want to clear one thing up. You indicated that your dealership "is the same dealer who serves the
    most prolific correspondent on this page". I assume you meant me as I have not seen any other dealers post here with any regularity. Alexandria Toyota has always accepted these coupons and would never jeopardize our legal standing on the class action settlement over $150. I checked our delivery log and didn't see your name so must assume that you are having this problem with somebody other than us. A little clarification would be appreciated on this issue.
  • sheinesheine Member Posts: 8
    My reference to "most prolific correspondent" was to a customer, not cliffy1. I do not want to be more specific or name the dealer because in all other respects, he acted honorably. I am not certain as to who is in the wrong in this matter. The dealer seemed to indicate that other dealers accepted the certificate as a disguised discount in order to make the sale. Obviously, there is no such incentive needed for dealers with the Prius.

    One of the reasons that I bought the certificate is because the "most prolific correspondent" recommended it here. The reference was to let him know that he will have a problem when he gets his car.
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    I was hoping it was something like that. I try very hard to protect my reputation on this board and the wording had me a bit nervous.

    Now, allow me to fill you in on the details of the certificate. If the dealer in question is listed on the certificate, they must honor it. The only exception is on cars that are advertised by stock number or VIN at a price under MSRP. This is to prevent people from using it on cars that we are selling in the paper as a loss leader.

    The money from the certificate is NOT paid by Toyota. It comes directly from the dealer's profit. This is why there is resistance to take it. We looked for loopholes bout found none. Fortunately (for us), there are none left for the region I sell in.
  • sheinesheine Member Posts: 8
    The dealer's name was on the certificate. None of the exceptions apply.
    It may be that it is possible to get a court order that requires the dealer to honor the certificate. I do not think that it is reasonable to employ a lawyer to file motions in a San Francisco fedral court in order to recover $150.
    Frankly, I am disappointed in Edmunds for selling these certificates without being ready to enforce their validity.
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    It is not Edmunds who is selling these certificates, they just facilitate the sales for a law firm. There is actually a larger issue here and a lawyer may be worth while. That dealership agreed to participate in a class action law suit. By refusing to honor its commitment, they have effectively removed themselves from the settlement and open themselves up to individual suits. See if there is a phone number on the certificate for a law office or court. I think there is.
  • sam125sam125 Member Posts: 6
    I received a call today telling me that 12 Prius', including the one I ordered in early July, are arriving Wed or Thu of next week. I was somewhat ambivalent about this decision until I test drove one about 3 weeks ago. Very fun to drive, and like the Edmunds review says, it has a funky look to it.
  • dianne4toyotadianne4toyota Member Posts: 343
    Yes, we like to try to avoid those certificates at all cost. Parts and service, once upon a time, were reimbursed, but "sales" never was.

    -Dianne
  • knieserknieser Member Posts: 5
    When did you order your Prius in July?

    Where do you live?

    Trying to get a feel for when I will see my Prius... ...Prius envy?!?

    ---
    Michael
  • sheinesheine Member Posts: 8
    When I posted my experience with the Edmunds certificate, it was simply to warn others. Cliffy1, apparently a Toyota salesman, wrote, "We looked for loopholes but found none". Diann4toyota, apparently a Toyota dealer, wrote, "Yes, we like to avoid those certificates at all costs". My dealer simply refused it.
    The problem appears to be a strange court decision that is a lot like musical chairs. Any Toyota dealer who is presented a certificate is supposed to take $150 out of his profit. There seems to be a ruling of collective guilt but punishment for the unlucky or less devious. To paraphrase an old saying, it is a hell of a way to run a legal system.
    It does not seem that anyone has completely clean hands in this matter; Edmunds, the lawyers, the dealers, Toyota, or the judge. As a customer, who bought the certificate with innocent expectations, I do not appreciate being plunged into the middle of a mess.
  • sam125sam125 Member Posts: 6
    I ordered my Prius early in July, I don't remember the exact date but I received a confirmation of my order via email on July 12. (I ordered it in person.) I live in Acton, Mass., and ordered the car from Acton Toyota.
    Even at this late date I'm second guessing my decision to buy one of these (partly because my wife thinks it's a "weenie" car, partly because I'm concerned about occasional highway travel that I must do) but the test drive went a long way to convincing me. The acceleration was fine (it helps that I'm not used to monster engines), and it drove just fine at 70mph.
  • knieserknieser Member Posts: 5
    I noticed on the WWW site that you can pay by credit card for these apparently worthless pieces of paper.

    Maybe you can dispute the credit card charge and return the certificate.

    It is unfortunate but it seems that car dealers themselves reinforce their poor reputation.
  • dianne4toyotadianne4toyota Member Posts: 343
    I agree. Test drive for about 30 minutes WILL help you decide. I take all prospective buyers for a 25-30 minute ride and go over the car thoroughly. Drive it for a while.. 25-30 minutes at least. It's worth the effort.
  • dianne4toyotadianne4toyota Member Posts: 343
    Clarifying things: when you go into a dealership and work with the RETAIL department, the certificate means a slightly reduced RETAIL price. Typically, in dealerships' retail departments, there is more profit margin to enable them to "fade" an extra $150 when the certificate is presented. For me, in my FLEET department, oftentimes the folks with the certificates are already AT my bottom line. I don't leave room for surprises. When someone wants my bottom dollar, they get it with no hassle. If I were to assume everyone COULD have a $150 certificate, then 9 of 10 would have paid too much for their cars by $150. Would you like to be one of those people?
    I would suspect they'd be plenty irritated if they made the time to come right in to get their cars and I "decided" to throw another $150 on the top at the last minute just because I thought I could. In my own humble opinion, it's the very same thing.
    I have been in this biz for 21 years now, (nearly half my life) and it's never ceased to amaze me that when someone comes in and is prepared to pick up a car and they start to re-negotiate a bottom line fleet deal with me, they are simply being "prudent" and thriftier. If I were to start to renegotiate an already accepted deal, I become a "cheat or liar"... or worse.
    The behavior is the same, really, but the integrity of the dealership's employee would be lowered. Customers behave the same, they are not lacking integrity - just being "thrifty".
    Uh huh.
    --Dianne
  • sheinesheine Member Posts: 8
    After a lawyer came to my aid, I got a call from the dealer saying that he would mail a check for $150.
  • cjneugecjneuge Member Posts: 2
    I've driven the Prius and am seriously considering ordering one. The procedure for doing so seems fairly odd, so I'd like to make sure that others are getting the same story from their dealers. To paraphrase what I was told:

    1) Place a deposit (refundable) with dealer. They place an order through WWW to Toyota. I now have my place in line.

    2) When I'm at the head of the line and a car comes in, I've got right of first refusal on that car.

    3) Dealer won't quote a price, just says that he won't go above MSRP. Says this is because they don't know what the price of the car is going to be three or four months down the line, which is where I'll be when the car arrives.

    Also, he says that DRL's and side airbags are optional, but of course he can't promise me anything because they get what Toyota ships him.

    Last question, will there or won't there be cruise control on these? I know it's a city car, but I do head out of town occasionaly...

    --Chris
  • sam125sam125 Member Posts: 6
    Chris,
    What you've described is exactly like my experience, except that your dealer should quote you a price if they're going to take an order from you. Should be pretty close to 20,500 with no haggling.
    My understanding is cruise control is not an option at this time --- they make a big deal that this is not a highway car. Like you, this was a big concern of mine, but I drove one at 70-75 mph and it was great.
  • stirratstirrat Member Posts: 5
    You pretty much got it. Except, first you go to www.toyota.com/prius and place your order. Then you give your deposit. Then they place your order with Toyota. Then you get an e-mail or two. Then you wait.

    On the options, CD player and floor mats are it. No cruise, no GPS, no DRLs.

    Visit the Prius club on Yahoo for more info direct from Toyota. Priusman is the program manager for the Prius, and ee of ee is an engineer.

    MJS
  • cjneugecjneuge Member Posts: 2
    Thanks for the replies. I confirmed that story this morning with another Toyota dealer in town. Looks like I'll be going to the dealership on Monday to get that MSRP quote and putting in the order. Oh, and I'll check out the forum on yahoo.

    --Chris
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