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Toyota Prius (First Generation)
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Comments
Edmunds.com will be there with give-a-ways.
Temps should be in the mid 70s. Get there early so we can line up all the vehicles for pictures. We will post them later for everyone to see.
If you wish to get on the list, please email:
gohev@email.com
Mention your vehicle, (or one you're interested in)
Where you're driving from.
How many in your party.
See you there.
-Jim
GOHEV Link: http://members.nbci.com/gohev/
And, mrgreenjeans - believe it or not, I have found STP Son of a Gun Cleaner to do a fantastic job on glass. Just make sure to rub all of it off with a clean paper towel or rag. It does a better job of getting off the bug stains than the old vinegar and newspaper trick, too. I wish I had a new Prius in my possession to help out on the mileage questions...
A dealership manager said that a Prius ordered 45 days ahead of mine (in October 2000) had arrived in Portland, Oregon. Toyota will install the CD player and floor mats at the port. He was reluctant to talk about any other add-ons because he said it would slow delivery of the vehicle. The Prius will be placed on a train for shipment to Ohio, which will take 8 days. He was less definite about my order, but gave me a time frame 1 1/2 to 2 months sooner than the original arrival date given to me. He said that Toyota is now delaying delivery of Trac cars to dealers to give priority to customer orders. He implied that Prius sales are so strong that demos are no longer necessary to get orders and that they are trying to speed up customer deliveries.
In response to posting #459, my Toyota contact did say that they are losing $15,000 to $20,000 on each Pruis they sell. He indicated that future HEV models from Toyota would be priced at a point where they could cover the cost of production. I suspect at some point Toyota will raise the price of the Prius to cover their costs. The 2002 Prius will come out in September 2001, perhaps that will be the point in time that they pick.
If you are shopping for a new car, you may want to read the review of the Prius in the December 2000 issue of Consumer Reports. They gave it an excellent rating for a new car without a reliability record or crash test data.
Toyota even has plans in the works for a hybrid SUV. Look for a Corolla based SUV with this system in 2003.
I also want to apologize for my long absence from this topic. When the software changed at Edmunds, I found all my other topics and marked them. I thought I had done this with the Prius topic but it seems I missed it. I'll be keeping up better in the future.
I was aghast to read about people's experiences with their local dealers, especially in California. I have taken 4 orders recently from pretty far north of me due to the fact that northern dealers are either not interested OR pricing the cars well above the MSRP. This, I cannot fathom. There are no allocations of Prius - it's a built-to-order car that is ordered specifically for one person. Meaning, were I to order 10 for 10 buyers, I'd get 10. Were I to order 50 for 50 buyers, I'd get 50. It's that simple. I can only assume that dealers do not want to do Prius orders due to high turnover with salespeople. I mean, what salesman wants to take the time to "sell" a car that he cannot deliver for 4-5 months? Few. Personally, I have been with Toyota for 20 years. I am not going anywhere, and I pride myself on the hundreds of happy buyers I have annually. But, that isn't always the case in small hick-towns and even large turnover-stores.
Anyone even remotely close to SoCal can count on me for an MSRP deal, and a deal with a smile and patiently asked questions. And, I even offer a special "hotshot" discount on all Prius models sold that you can email me for details on.
I am sorry to read a few of these letters of frustration here concerning what should be a terrific and happy purchase. It's true that Toyota Motors loses about $8000 a car, per car, based on the cost per car to produce. But, that isn't affecting dealers, so that isn't a reason for poor treatment. Salesmen/salespeople and dealerships treat people as they wish. It's up to you, as the consumer, to do the Dionne Warwick thing (o/~ walk on by) and find someone who will care about you.
--Dianne
dianne@earthlink.net
It was good fun!
http://communities.msn.com/GOHEV
How do you like the Prius; any comments??
Was your purchase for private use, corporate or government??
Was it a purchase or lease??
Were you able to take advantage of any "grant" program or subsidy because its an SULEV or hybrid vehicle??
Do you have any concerns about its safety??
Are you concerned about the high-voltage system in the car??
Are you concerned about the potential danger of the high-voltage system should you be involved in a serious accident (including roll-over)??
Any other comments??
Thank you for your responses.
Robert Fuller
Don
Thanks!
Don
We noticed immediately the differences in the braking; you have to push down hard at first and then stop. Apparent reason - takes finite time for computer to switch to regenerative breaking. If you push down hard, the ABS brakes really dig in (while charging the battery). Although this Prius is supposed to have more starting torque than our V6 Camry, pickup felt like maybe the emergency brake was on (no it wasn't). Maybe this is stiffness in the accelerator (which incidently is not attached to the engine, but to a computer input.) Neither of these items bothered us and we got used to them quickly.
The Prius is delivered with 50% battery charge. At first we noticed that the engine was running all of the time (charging) even at stops but recently there has beenan absence of dash vibration, indicating that the engine is off and quiet. Our second technician contact the second day said that the dash energy display doesn't always indicate the current status????
You might notice that the Toyota Prius specs call out two permanent magnet motors. The first technician also said there were two motors; a little one that controls the planetary gear ratios and sometiomes runs like hell during braking and a larger one that takes up the slack. However I suspect that the little motor he was talking about is the generator/starter. While I won't put out big bucks for a shop manual for a car I don't intend to work on (take one look under the hood!) I do plan to stop by with Dwain or Jim and look at the diagrams in their agency shop manual.
This car took a lot of engineering to design. It shows!
Milt
Service folks told us that the 12V battery failed that powers the remote and actually initially starts the car. Said Toyota told him 3-5 days for the part, so give it 10 days. Nope, we couldn't pick up a third-party battery, and nope, the failed battery couldn't be recharged. Oh, and the battery is on back order, Toyota doesn't have a single spare in the U.S.A. Wonderful.
I'm writing now late Jan. 25. My wife is quite happy with the Escort. My friends are still curious about the Prius, and I wish I had bought an end-of-the-model-year Honda Accord (more car, less price, great spare parts). The dealer's service rep and the Toyota regional office have slightly different stories, but both claimed "my" battery landed in Ontario, Calf. Jan. 15 (regional office version) or Jan. 15 (dealer). Toyota's U.S. warehouses and the folks back in Japan all shut down for (two?) weeks for the Christian New Years, and the dealer's order for the battery sat around 2 weeks before going anywhere within Toyota. (I don't know if they shut down again for the lunar New Year.)
Apparently the mule caravan transporting the battery is due to arrive tomorrow (don't hold my breath) somewhere, either at the regional office (the dealer's story) or at the dealer's (the regional office's story). I've heard that story before. Anyhow, I zip up to Philadelphia midday tomorrow -- and I expect it will be in the Escort. Well, at least I don't have to worry about keeping under 61 mph with the brand new Escort.
Hey, folks, don't buy a Prius if you want to drive outside your major metropolitan area unless you've got a second car to make that trip.
Oh, yes, we were all enthused about the car. Almost ready to forget the long wait when we finally got it. The dealership was real friendly (not like some of the stories I read), very positive about the Prius. But a month to get a 12V battery (if that's what it really was)!!
I've always insured with them when I've been in the U.S.A.
My new Prius (whenever I see it again, but that's another story) is covered by USAA.
For that matter, I don't recall reading of anyone else having problems getting insurance. Maybe it's where your located and your age...?
*Or were/are offices in the U.S. Foreign Service or with the U.S. Public Health Service.
Thanks.
Patrick
This info was in a fluff piece about GM's Precept, a hybrid vehicle allegedly getting 85 mi./gal. I say fluff piece because, buried in the article's text, there's the info that GM has no intention of producing the Precept for the market. Yeah, so it's like all those lab cars that college kids put together that rack up high efficiencies, but are not available to consumers. IBM was famous, when it reigned supreme, for vaporware, now Microsoft has its vaporware. Looks like GM has vaporcars.
Meanwhile, the missing 12V battery I reported in message 477 continues to be awol. My new, barely used Prius has now been dead at the dealer's since towed there Dec. 28.
Also, while the 45 mpg EPA hiway rating seems pretty close, the 52 city rating seems unobtainable to us. ANY COMMENTS ON THSES FROM OTHER OWNERS? We now have 7000 miles on the car with no problems.
Grant Calkins
Camarillo, CA
My last five cars have been Lexi (why does Toyota keep coming up with these Latinate words whose plural is uncertain?) My lease is up on the last one, and I had to make a decision last week about what to do next. I've had the ES250, ES320, LS400, and am turning in a GS300, but, as great a car as the Lexus is on many levels, I was also getting bored with them. A friend who's a semi-retired techie and early adapter of most things, raved about his Prius, which he had thoroughly researched.
Naive as I was 10 days ago (before I'd discovered the forums), I sent emails to most of the Southern California Toyota dealers asking whether they had one I could pick up *that weekend*. I'm sure the recipients found my question amusing. Some didn't even have the courtesy to answer, others told me to go online to the Prius website, get my reservation number, and come on in so I could wait 4 to 6 months for delivery. One told me there was a *thousand* dollar nonrefundable deposit. Another said a demo would be available sometime in February for the MSRP.
I was about to give up, because I couldn't wait four to six months. That led me to search for more information on the net, where I found this forum. Within five minutes, I had discovered a little note from Diane, a lease manager in Southern California who said she sometimes could get the Prius without the 4-6 month wait. So, I sent her a note asking if she had any.
The next morning, she responded that she did have one on the lot, but it would probably be gone before the next day. Since this was the *only* new Prius I could find among all the Toyota dealers in Southern California, I called her and said my wife and I were on our way down.
When we got there, she insisted we take it out for a half-hour drive before we decided whether this was the car for us. I'm in my sixties and have had lots of experience with car salespeople. This is the first one who wanted me to take *longer* on the test drive than I wanted.
My wife and I are interested in helping the environment, but like most of the people we know in our age group, we're not willing to deprive ourselves of the comforts we've become accustomed to. We were both amazed, therefore, by the roominess of the car, its pickup, and its ability to sustain regular L.A. freeway speeds. The amenities aren't Lexus-class, of course, but they're not bad, either -- although I certainly wanted and still want cruise control and a cd player.
I'm concerned about the safety of the vehicle, especially since there are so many SUVs, trucks, Hummers and other godzillamobiles on our freeways. I regard Toyota's failure to provide side air bags as a grevious -- perhaps unforgivable -- error. But we decided to take a chance, and so we got it.
I originally wanted to pay cash, but Dianne, the fleet sales manager, suggested we seriously think about leasing, and when we found the interest rate was around 6% (which I think works out to something like a 2.87% "money factor"), we decided the lease was irrestible. She had told us before we made the trip that the price on that particular car would be 5% over MSRP, which we did not consider unreasonable, given the car's extreme scarcity and remarkably-small markup. (I suspect we'll all be able to sell these cars for what we paid for them a year or two from now.)
This was *supposed* to be my car, but my wife drove it around town the next day, and came home with the information that this was now *her* car, and I could have her Lexus. That remains to be seen.
Some friends have asked how I felt about "trading down." I've replied that we can certainly do without the moonroof, leather seats, wood paneling, six-way seats, etc. that we were used to -- especially since this car costs less than half of the Lexus we returned, and it feels *good* to be *doing* something about the environment.
It took not only brilliance but courage for Toyota to develop this car. As I write this, the American car makers are evidently trying to take advantage of California's electric problems by urging the state to abandon the fuel-efficiency mandates it made law well over a decade ago. I feel shame that Americans are still claiming it can't be done, while the Japanese just went ahead and DID it.
Rebus
P.S. The dealer was Carson Toyota, the fleet sales manager is Dianne Whitmire (dianne@earthlink.net). I have absolutely no connection with the company or salesperson other than this one purchase, so I'm only guessing when I say that maybe what they did for my wife and I they can also do for others. Or maybe we just got lucky.
The service desk asked if I recently got fuel, which I hadn't. Next step, bring it in for service. I hope this in not a sign of things to come! Any feed back would be more than welcome and hopefully comforting.
Thanks, Joe
Thanks,
Don
The demo car I saw did not have foldable rear seats, but I see that Edmunds shows this as a feature. The salesman said that perhaps they are now made that way. What's the deal?
thx,
brion
To "DS Gecho," Welcome to the exclusive new club of Prius owners whose cars are immobile for lack of the 12V battery.
No, the matter isn't resolved. Our car remains at the Rockville, Md. dealership, towed there 12/28. Service manager Paul just told me that the trucking company, allegedly hauling "my" 12V batter crosscountry, now reports it (the battery? their truck?) "lost." He says he got that news from Debbie Simons at the Baltimore-area regional Toyota office. He understands that Toyota currently, throughout the USA, has 41 12V batteries on order, of which 35 are currently in "transit" status. (I didn't ask how they've categorized our battery.)
I hate to give up. Still I think I may invoke the Md. lemon law this weekend, and see if there's a new 2000 Honda Accord waiting out there on a dealer's lot. Or even a Hyundai.
* * * * *
On the topics of batteries, "withano" can forget folding down the rear seat to pop a bike into the trunk. The BIG battery dwells in that region.
The Balt.-area Toyota regional office answers as "Central Atlantic Toyota." Ms Simons was in a meeting. Maybe she's lost also.
Anyone know where to send a message to reach Toyota President Fujio Cho?
Apparently when it was installed at the factory they forgot to remove a plastic cover that now moved and blocked the sensor, what a relief. It still scares me when it comes to spare part, hopefully they get more in stock as the car becomes more popular. It took two days to fix and I did get a loaner car for free and no charge for the repair. I COULD NOT BELIEVE HOW MUCH I MISSED MY PRIUS!!
it would be even without the hybrid technology. When I bought the car, the salesman said it qualified for the "Qualified Electric Vehicle Credit". At 10%, this was a major selling point. Now that I'm looking at my taxes I'm not sure the car does qualify. Does anyone know with any authority?
Re my mag #477: Yesterday the long missing 12V battery arrived at the dealership. where you might recall it has sat since 12/28, after failing 12/26. (We got the car 12/20 after ordering it 8/28.)
Re: 492 federal tax credit
I queried the IS on-line answering service and received the following answer:
Begin quote.
Thank you for your e-mail inquiry.
*********************************
The Toyota Prius 2001 and the Honda Insight qualify if the vehicle if they meet the following test.
*********************************
Qualified electric vehicle. This is a motor vehicle that:
Has at least four wheels and is manufactured primarily for use on public streets, roads, and highways,
Is powered primarily by an electric motor that draws its power from re chargeable batteries, fuel cells, or other portable sources of electrical current,
Is originally used by you, and
Is acquired for your own use, not for resale.
Amount of credit. The credit is equal to 10% of the cost of the vehicle. However, if the vehicle is a depreciable business asset, you must reduce the cost by any section 179 deduction before figuring the credit. Get Publication 463, Travel, Entertainment, Gift, and Car Expenses, for information on the section 179 deduction.
The credit is limited to $4,000 for each vehicle.
Special rules. You cannot take the credit if you use the vehicle predominately outside the United States.
The credit will be subject to recapture if, within 3 years after the date you place the vehicle in service, the vehicle is used predominately outside the United States or is modified so that it is no longer eligible for the credit.
How to claim the credit. To claim the credit, complete Form 8834, and attach it to your Form 1040. Include the credit in your total for line 49, check box d, and write "8834" on the line next to box d.
*****************************************************
Please refer to Publication 17 Your Federal Income Tax Chapter 17 page 252 at the IRS website www.irs.gov
End quote.
So what's the answer?
I'm not a tax attorney (or lawyer of any stripe), but it seems to me anyone who uses the Prius primarily for driving in in-city traffic can honestly claim that the car is primarily powered by the battery (assuming non-mountainous driving conditions that would make the gasoline motor kick in). Or who drives on crowded or low speed limit suburban areas. Or in stop-and-go traffic anywhere.
Incidentally, the Friday Washington Post named five (I believe) Congress people who have a Prius, including Montgomery Country, Maryland's Connie Morella (who thus also benefitted from Md.'s exemption from sales tax of the Prius (and, I think, the Insight)).
http://thomas.loc.gov/home/c106query.html,
then type in hybrid and click search, select item #3 to see this Senate bill.
Currently it looks like the IRS has nixed the idea of taking a tax credit via form 8834 Qualified Electric Vehicle Credit, look on the instructions on the back of the form and they have added this paragraph to the 2000 form:
Caution: Gasoline/electric hybrid vehicles that are not powered primarily by an electric motor are not qualified electric vehicles. However, part of the cost of these vehicles (up to $2,000 for a vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating
that does not exceed 10,000 pounds) may qualify for the deduction for clean-fuel vehicles, even if you do not use the vehicle for business purposes. See Pub. 535, Business Expenses, for more details.
They did not address hybrid vehicles before but now they have with that first statement. I'm not sure how to argue that the Prius or the Honda Insight for that matter get their primary power from the electric motor.
Now I also looked at Pub. 535 regarding Clean-Fuel Vehicles. This does say there is a tax credit based on the cost of the electric motor and other hybrid parts required to run the clean fuel part of the vehicle, ie. the electric motor. How can we come up with a cost basis for the Prius for the electric motor and all supporting hybrid parts?
That would have to come from Toyota, but I don't know how to get them to give us that number.
It looks like to me the best bet is if congress passes those bills I mentioned above and they make them retroactive to the year 2000.
Anyone else have any ideas?
Don
The cost seems a bit steep but any major problems with the Pries out of the standard warranty will also be steep. The finance manager is really pushing it and he makes a lot of good points for it (not mentioning, of course, that like any add-on, there is probably good dealer profit involved).
I'd be interested if seeing what kind of ratio of warranty buyers to not-buyers there is out there. Thanks