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Toyota Prius (First Generation)

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Comments

  • tomccoy1tomccoy1 Member Posts: 12
    Consumer Reports compared Toyota's hybrid Prius with its conventional Echo. Prius has been around (in Japan) since 1997, and Echo is an economized version. A base Echo sells for $10,525, and a Prius for $20,520. The difference in miles per gallon found by CR's drivers? Three miles per gallon (41 vs. 38).


    Is that all you get for your money? CR also tested the Honda's hybrid Insight, another $20,000 machine, and got 51mpg. It seats two and weighs 1820 lbs. Testers at Edmunds.com got the same, after over a year of ownership. Total U.S. sales in its 18-month history are a miserable 7,500 units.


    These "mass market" mpgs are lower than what you find on "enthusiast" Web sites. That's because those intrigued by the technology (like this driver) do their best to see what it can get. In fact, you can get much more mpg out of both conventional and hybrid cars if you try. When we look at this subset, Prius owners average around 45mpg and Insighters around 62 (mine shows 69.7). But this group is much more obsessive about mileage than, say, SUV owners.


    So if you're an average Joe driver, it's pretty simple. Would you pay twice as much for a car that gets you three more miles per gallon?


    Of course not. But the hybrids are chic and politically correct. And no American auto company needs a bit of PC more than Ford. So, after helping to spend our $1.5 billion in the PNGV, they announced last week that they're going to stuff hybrid technology made by Toyota (!) in their Escape SUV. That's gratitude to us taxpayers for you.


    How much gas will this save? Consumer Reports got 17 mpg out of their Escape. Analogizing to the Echo-Prius comparison, expect an 8 percent increase in fuel economy for average Joes, or about 1.4 mpg. For this saving of about $100 in gas a year, you'll pay a premium of several thousand dollars, because Toyota's not going to give away this technology to Ford. In fact, this is where they will recoup some of their substantial Prius losses.


    Escape from Automotive Reality

    http://www.cato.org/dailys/09-04-01.html
  • dsgechodsgecho Member Posts: 89
    Prius and echo the same- bologna!!
    I have owned both vehicles and the echo is the base version@$9995. Nope- not even power steering. No AC [you appreciate this best in Aug. in TN]. But it is a wonderful car for the price and definitely has Toyo workmanship. Prius- power everything, AC,ABS, alarm system,much quieter overall,etc.I think echoes with all options get into the $15000 range but still do not have near the standard equipment that the prius does.Over a period of driving each several thousand miles you see the Prius gets consistently 10 mpg above what the echo does in the same situation generally. So this story of the echo/prius comparison is getting old. They are NOT the same cars and do the research properly to know that or do not write or post a review- please!
    Thanks,
    Don
    Nashville, TN
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    This is not a valid comparison. Even if one were to factory order an ECHO and wait 3 to 4 months to get one with ABS, you would pay a bit over $15K and you still wouldn't have alloy wheels, climate control, cruise control, power windows, power mirrors, keyless entry, or engine immobilizer. You would not have nearly as nice or quiet of a ride and the back seat would be smaller. The seats are not as comfortable and the ECHO lacks some of the insulation that makes the Prius feel like it does. You also would not have your first 3 years of maintenance paid for, nor get road side assistance.

    CR is a decent information source, but this is a flawed comparison of costs. To get to the amenity level of the Prius, you would need to compare it to a Camry LE at about $21K and you would still be lacking a few things but would have a larger car.
  • carleton1carleton1 Member Posts: 560
    BUT, Toyota wanted accurate testing in the real world by ordinary people to perfect their technology.
    I agree that the Prius is a MUCH nicer sedan than the ECHO. I just wish Toyota would offer an LE version of the ECHO with Cruise, the nicer seats, nicer interior, and extra insulation of the Prius but keep everything else as is on the ECHO.
    Many people prefer a vehicle without the extra cost of PW, PDL, keyless entry, alloy wheels, engine immobilizer, etc.
    BTW, my wife and I prefer the seating height of Prius, ECHO, and Sienna over any other Toyota from Corolla to 4-Runner. We felt the Tundra seats were not high enough off the truck floor to be as comfortable as the height of P,E, and S.
    Again, let me THANK YOU for all the excellent data you provide. I just get to know a nice Toyota salesman here locally, and he is gone next time I go in: Tarik who let me test drive the ECHO. Bob at another Toyota/Dodge dealership. Terry at same dealership where Tarik was. Based on our experience, you are a rare salesman who has built up a customer base with satisfied buyers who will buy from NO ONE else but you. Selling vehicles is a very difficult job and it takes a very special person to satisfy both customers and dealership owners.
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    Wow. Thanks for the compliment. I know how difficult it is to find a good salesman because I have been a manager and have tried hiring them. The problem with the really good ones is keeping them. Every dealership is looking for these guys and heavily recruit them. As a salesman, we are always looking for a store to match our style and that is a real trick.

    Now, as to your question about Toyota's looses on the Prius, I can only parrot what I have read in the Automotive News. Toyota is very tight lipped about such matters but current speculation is a $4000 loss on each Prius sold once development costs are amortized. Toyota expects this technology to be around for a while and have a van coming out in a couple of years. By that time, battery costs should be down and development costs will be much lower so I'm not crying over Toyota's purported losses now. I'm just looking forward to the future.
  • kaz6kaz6 Member Posts: 331
    When I was looking for a new car I was very keen on the Prius. I love the styling and the technology. However, I am not able to spend that much on a new car. Aside from the intial costs, there is the anticipated costs down the road i.e. battery replacement.
    I now own an Echo and it is definitely an apples to oranges comparison. As far as the money one would save w/higher gas mileage; I don't think that is the sole reason for buying a Prius. If money were no object I'd have gone for the Prius but the Echo is great in its own way.
    Has anyone had to sell their Prius? I wonder what the real-world resale value is?
    And yes, Cliffy is a great source of info!
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    We haven't had one come through for a few months now, but the last ones we had sold for MORE than MSRP. It seems people were willing to pay to have it now, rather than wait.

    I have one customer who was offered $30K by her boss for hers. He was desperate to shave 30 minutes off his commute by using the HOV lanes and was willing to pay for it NOW. My customer turned him down and yes, she believes he was serious.
  • tomccoy1tomccoy1 Member Posts: 12
    I am still not convinced that Prius is better than the Echo
  • carleton1carleton1 Member Posts: 560
    Prius has far more content but as with you, I will not buy new technology and would get the ECHO instead of Prius if we got a new sedan.
  • tomccoy1tomccoy1 Member Posts: 12
    Thanks for your comments carleton1.

    I priced the Echo at $13,925 (Edmunds) loaded with all the options I saw on the Prius which retails for 19,995 (without delivery).

    I appreciate the feedback that Prius has some upscale features not found or available on the Echo - alloy wheels, climate control, cruise control, engine immobilizer. - But these are only worth say several thousand dollars. Consumers Report and the Cato article do appear to be making an imperfect comparison.

    The Prius's 70 horsepower is far less powerful than the Echo's 108 hp engine. This is a highly relevant difference.

    BTW, there is no comparison between the Camry with 157 horsepower and the Prius at 70 hp. I drive 300 - 400 miles a day on business travel and there is no way the Prius could do this comfortably with only 70 hp.

    I believe those consumers wishing to buy the Prius owners benefit from the statement they make about conservation and protecting the environment - which is fine. But there is no way the mileage benefits can justify the higher price for the Prius in my opinion. And eventually I would expect Toyota to charge to real price it takes to produce the car - such that they will not incur huge losses on this concept.
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    You can't really compare horsepower ratings or even torque ratings between the Prius and other vehicles. Horsepower is how well work is performed over time, while torque measures how rapidly you get there. The torque on the Prius is well over 200, but this is a very low RPM. Without seeing a torque curve, I can't say how it compares to the Camry or ECHO torque. I can tell you this car makes it up to speed quite well, but most of you know that already.
  • carleton1carleton1 Member Posts: 560
    .....The last nice local Toyota salesman (before he became Dealer Inventory Manager) ordered himself a Prius to also use as a demonstrator for HIS customers. He did the same thing buying a personal NEW Beetle before he left VW to sell Toyota. I told him it was interesting he went from selling "Junk" (Volkswagen is the German word for junk....we know as we purchased 5 and 2 were got NEW) to the most reliable line (Toyota).
    He told me the ONLY recurring problem this dealership had with any Toyota was with the Sienna Power Sliding Door which is VERY DIFFICULT to get properly adjusted.
    Have you encountered any other recurring problems in any Toyota? My sister got a NEW 85 Camry LE that she sold to her daughter. It now has over 200,000 miles with no problems and has received minimal maintenance since the daughter got it in 1994.
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    I'll agree on the power door issue. Beyond that, I can't think of anything off the top of my head on any current vehicles. We used to have head gasket problems on the trucks but that went away in early '97. We had a few of the early Prius cars come in with the power steering recall, but that was short lived. If there's anything else, I just don't know about it, but our shop guys might.
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    Oh, one more. "Off lease" Camrys almost always have engine sludge. This isn't a car problem but an owner problem. This problem is going away but for about 2 years, we were seeing the results of the cheap leases in the mid '90's. People were leasing for three years and totally neglecting basic stuff like oil changes. By '99, Toyota changed some things on the lease and fewer people did them and the "problem" seems to have gone away.
  • nofeernofeer Member Posts: 381
    I may be getting myself in trouble stating this opinion--why not by a diesel jetta and get better if not the same milage and nice size car with better acceleration? If you are going for milage why not a diesel?..My cousin has an echo and ravs about it. we haven't driven the prius, but many are price conscious. For close to 21k, there are alot of choices. I do like the idea of navigation in the prius probably less than a commparably egquiped camry,
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    ...diesels are even rarer than Priuses [Priui??] in California. In theory, VW can sell some extremely limited number of TDIs here. In practice, they are made of "unobtainium".

    Automobile Magazine ran a comparison test in their Nov issue that ran a Prius, Insight, and VW Lupo diesel cross-country to compare useability. Winner? The Lupo, hands down. One caveat: the Lupo had to have a caravan of VW technicians ferrying cans of EU low-sulfur diesel fuel to take part, since the crap that we buy as diesel in this country would immediately foul the car's emission system.

    The latest diesel engines from EU ARE THE ANSWER; but we won't get them until our oil companies agree to sell the exact same fuel they already produce in Europe, here. Why this is so difficult is mostly a matter of economics, and the perception that no one in the US really cares about fuel economy.

    Even Honda, which has avoided diesels like the plague, now agrees this has more promise than hybrids...but outside of the EU, demand is not great enough to move the whole question along. Another oil boycott might do it...
  • carleton1carleton1 Member Posts: 560
    No comparison between any diesel and Prius if air quality is of any concern.
    Diesel engine exhaust STINKS, diesel fuel causes problems in low temperatures, diesel engines pollute the air with not only stink but also noise pollution. Diesel engines are a plague almost as bad as Anthrax.
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    Sorry, but none of these objections apply to the new generation of turbo, direct-injection, common-rail diesels that are now rapidly closing on 50% of the market in Europe. They are quick, quiet, clean, and economical...but they require fuel that is nearly free of sulfur to be all of those things. And, they emit a small percentage of the greenhouse gases that everyone is so concerned about these days [including many of the people who bought Priuses].

    No smells, no smoke, no fuss. But the oil companies have to cooperate.

    Do a little reading on this topic of air quality; the European Greens are the ones leading the charge to the new diesel technology. The main sticking point for us is NOX emissions - the US regs put heavy emphasis on this, and the standard cannot be met unless you have quality fuels. The EU has the fuel already, and they tend to focus on the total weight of all emissions, and CO2 in particular...at which the new generation diesels excel.

    The best hybrids, by admission of all of the car makers, would be ones powered by small diesels accompanied by the electrical or perhaps another kind of energy-storage assist. Until then, for every place but the US, clean-air advocates are voting for the new diesels. I think they're right.
  • carleton1carleton1 Member Posts: 560
    And do you know the name of the chemical compound produced by current diesel engines that causes the horrendous foul, stinky odor?
    I would appreciate any links you may provide to support the claim of low emissions for these TD engines you mention.
    I have yet to see any Volkswagen that feels as nice inside as the Prius. Volkswagen does not take them to the Annual Auto Show. We sit inside every Volkswagen (and all other vehicles)each January and I have yet to see ANY Volkswagen that has the quality feel of the Prius.
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    ...I wasn't trying to start an argument. My reading on this topic takes in every monthly and weekly auto mag, as well as Automotive News and the Detroit News online. But for a good summary, try the Automobile Magazine November edition...it's the most recent print edition, but will soon be replaced on the newsstands by the Dec. edition. At that point, the article might be available online at their website.

    But the whole topic of the EU diesel revolution has been well documented for the past several years in all of the EU magazines. The english-language ones I follow regularly include CAR and AutoExpress, which is a weekly that has a good, if cluttered website.

    And please understand: I'm not "claiming" these engines are low-emission. They ARE low-emission, meeting the current [and in most cases future] EU emission requirements, which are just as stringent as ours with the exception of NOX. As I said, the Europeans put more emphasis on CO2 and less on NOX, but even their NOX rules will get tighter in 2004.

    I'm not "selling" VWs; but EVERY European car maker is producing diesels this very day that can get 35-50 mpg in a package that has good room inside and capable of good road behavior.

    I think the Prius, and the upcoming hybrid Civic sedan, are the best of what we have available to us at this moment in this country if you care at all about resource consumption. But that does not make them the best alternative out there.

    To answer your question, the big problem with diesel exhaust, particularly as it comes from older, untuned bus and truck engines in this country, is the combination of truly putrid sulfur mixed with too much carbon particulate matter. The latter is fixed with the new injection technology; the former can only be fixed with the right catalysts, but they are poisoned by the sulfur in US fuel...which is why we have to get the sulfur out of both diesel and gasoline to take the next step in emission controls.
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    ...was titled "Fuel's Paradise", and was written by Jamie Kitman, who is the resident "Greenie" on the Automobile staff. Because it is the current print issue, nothing has been posted online - naturally they want you to buy the magazine. There is a sidebar as part of that article that sums up the current situation re: fuel for diesels in this country vs EU, and what needs to be done to solve the problem here.

    Also in this issue is their wrapup on their extended test of the Insight, which only confirms that the Prius is a much more useable package than the Insight for everyday use. The new hybrid Civic should be a huge improvement...but not available until early Spring.

    And one final thought: hybrids are currently being subsidized by both Toyota and Honda as rolling research projects. They both lose somewhere between $3000 and $8000 per vehicle at current prices, depending on who's quoting and how much of the amortized research cost is included. For this to be a viable, real-world future technology, the cost of the "storage media" [batteries, right now] HAS to come down. After over a decade of trying, both Honda and Toyota concede [and GM and Ford and MB] that they just haven't achieved that "Big Breakthrough" in battery technology that everyone was hoping for. This is another reason economical, clean diesel technology has to be on the table; fuel cells are clearly coming, but no one has figured out yet how to make them really efficient, since pure hydrogen storage is out of the question, and the reformers needed to convert gasoline or diesel to hydrogen "on board" is easy technically, but very wasteful.
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    ...every internal combustion engine produces Nitrous Oxides. The nitrogen comes from the air...remember, we breathe a combination of oxygen and nitrogen, and so do our cars and trucks. The kicker is how to reduce the NOX in the exhaust, which is linked in most studies to the production of "smog" in urban areas.
  • carleton1carleton1 Member Posts: 560
    Thanks for the answers. I had thought the NOX was a byproduct of the combustion of the Nitrogen that is in the air.
    It appears that the exhaust emissions of many newer vehicles has less pollution than does the air the engine uses for combustion.
    I have an aversion to diesel engines based on my experience with diesel engine tractors my father had on our farm and the fact that diesel engines in the NEW trucks our FA Battalion took to Vietnam when we were deployed in 1965 had many more problems than the old gasoline powered 6 cyl GMC trucks of Korean War 1950's vintage.
    Neighbors have diesel engine pickups and the horrific odor and noise are very objectionable.

    Bottom line: Because of my aversion to diesel engines, the Prius is a much more attractive "Clean Air" vehicle than any diesel. Toyota is the most widely accepted #1 brand for reliability.
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    ...that simply no longer apply.

    The engines in personal use pickups [especially the heavier ones] are allowed to get away with ridiculously looser emission controls than passenger cars. This too will change in the future, which is why everyone is working on as close to zero-sulfur fuel as the technology will manage.

    I haven't owned a diesel since our '81 300SD, but after driving one of the new generation in Europe, it would be my first choice if any of the current MB, BMW, VW, Peugeot, etc. direct-injection turbos were available here.
  • espinaldoespinaldo Member Posts: 24
    I know that the first three years of service are covered by toyota. But what does a 15k, 30k, etc service cost after that? I figure that there must be added cost for the electrical portion but the Engine should be easy since the driver can't easily abuse it on the road.

    Also, is the forst three years covered regardless of mileage?
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    The 15 and 30K services are covered by the warranty. Beyond that, there isn't too much added expense to this car. About the only thing different is that you must change the inverter coolant ever 30K miles. I don't know what that costs.
  • espinaldoespinaldo Member Posts: 24
    I'm sorry to be non-specific. I refer to the 15k and 30k services on a car for the life of it (i.e. 150k would be the 30k) as the same functions are performed (usually). You did answer my question with the "not too much added expense" and thanks for that.

    BTW A prior posting insinuated that the squeaky dealer geets the prius. The story was that matches are made for the cars that arrive. Is this the story as you know it? would it change by region? I expect to see one arriving through Long Beach but I am thinking that there may be a delay as the web site for the dealer lists progress for all prius orders and I have noticed a lack of progression. (Could be "the watched pot" syndrome.)
  • gweilogweilo Member Posts: 118
    Look at the BMW/hydrogen article in the edmunds home page. Fuel from water that burns back to water. Real cars(how about a 12 cyl?)based on current engine design that can stand up to wind.
    Step one.
    Step 2?
    Power plants run on water, emitting water.
    Sign me up.
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    Sorry for the delay in responding. I've been on vacation.

    The squeaky dealer does NOT get higher priority. These cars are allocated on a customer basis and not a dealer basis. I have not heard an answer from Toyota on whether these are true "custom" builds or not but I suspect they are. That being said, I just delivered my first car that did not arrive in the order it was placed. I'm betting this was an aberration. Every other car arrived in the exact order that it was placed.
  • nofeernofeer Member Posts: 381
    So would the ownership of the prius be on par with a corolla, or civic, would it be a good car for a teenager or college kid. Away from Calif.( i live in KY, my son in MI) we can get the vw tdi, which would you trust for ease of use and durability. One prius owner told me about a 8 year, 80k warranty? if the prius gets 50 and so does the diesel VW, why not the TDI
    Hows the prius on the highway and passing?
  • robvig12000robvig12000 Member Posts: 16
    Cliffy: I live in Texas about 55 miles from Austin and 90 miles from Houston. The nearest Toyota dealer that does Prius is in Austin. I want to be clear in my mind about how I should order the Prius:

    1. Do I go to the dealership, test drive the car, lock in a price, and then come home and order on the Toyota web site before returning to the dealer to confirm the PR? I've read horror stories on other discussion sites about dealers trying to add on packages or other costs and have the customer pay for something he/she didn't order. How do I avoid that?

    2. Regarding maintenance, if my Prius were to break down in La Grange (where I live) and need servicing, what would I be able to expect from Toyota? Would they come and get it? Would I get a loaner?

    3. Any further information on how the Prius performs in extremely hot southwest weather, particularly the A/C?

    Thanks for your help.

    Rob
  • robvig12000robvig12000 Member Posts: 16
    Anyone out there living in the Austin, TX area who has recently bought/ordered a Prius. How was your experience?
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    Your plan of attack is a good one, but may be unnecessary. If you desire a test drive before ordering, you will need to make a trip to the dealer. While you are there, you can ask to process your end of the order in the dealership, assuming they have an Internet connected computer available in the showroom. If the dealership is really on the ball, they can confirm the order while you are still there.

    An alternate method would be to call or e-mail the dealership about their procedures. You may find that the store can handle the pricing and deposit over the phone, meaning your first trip to the store will be to take delivery 5 months from now. All of this really depends on the store.

    Ask good questions of the dealer. Make sure the person you are speaking to knows what they are doing. You may even have to call and ask the receptionist to be connected to the "best salesman you have" or to the manager who handles the Prius sales.

    As for service, you do need to remember that only a Prius certified dealer can even do an oil change on this car. For any warranty repairs, you will get a loaner. Toyota is being very paranoid about Prius customers and are bending over backwards to keep them happy.
  • masshockeymasshockey Member Posts: 11
    Has anyone had any luck in finding a ski rack to fit the Prius? I checked the local ski shop and then the Thule web page to no avail. Thule says they are looking into a foot for the Prius but have nothing yet. Not having a folding rear seat makes ski toting difficult if you also intend to have a passenger (unless they sit directly behind the driver)
  • masshockeymasshockey Member Posts: 11
    I was able to find a compatible rack made by Yakima. There was a reference to it on a Yahoo Prius board.
  • hnthompshnthomps Member Posts: 3
    I just got my THIRD flat tire in 6 months. I have 9,000 miles on my 2001 prius, and I've gotten three flat tires since May (I got the car in February).
    Has anyone else had this problem? any suggestions?
  • rmelenrmelen Member Posts: 2
    I have some questions, some perhaps dumb, about the Navigation System option for 2002. Perhaps someone who has one installed can help with answers. Our dealer has sold a lot of Prius vehicles he says but doesn't know much about the NAV stuff.

    1) I've been told the NAV system mostly installs in the trunk space. Anyone know exactly where and how much space (dimensions) it takes?

    2) How do you (or do you) tell the system your destination?

    3) Does it use a GPS to tell where the vehicle is currently located?

    4) When going to a destination address for example, are instructions shown on the screen? Are they also supplemented with voice output giving you directions?

    5) I assume the information available on the DVD is for the continental US only? No directions for navigating in Vancouver British Columbia or Toronto Ontario in Canada?

    6) At some point the information on the DVD might get a little out of date for some areas. Anyone with experience about how often is reasonable to get an update? What might the typical cost be for such an update?

    Thanks very much.
  • rmelenrmelen Member Posts: 2
    OK, I did what I should have done earlier -- called the Toyota customer line and asked the questions.

    For those who still care ...

    1) Yes, it installs in the trunk. Dimensions were not available but somewhat unnecessary since it seems to install in a panel in the trunk wall, not taking away any existing trunk space.

    2) Input is done on the touch-sensitive screen with a displayed soft alphanumeric keyboard.

    3) Yes it uses a GPS.

    4) It sounds as though driving instructions are both displayed and spoken. Don't know if it mutes the radio/cassette/CD sound system while doing so. Anyone know?

    5) USA only on a single DVD I think. Anyone confirm?

    6) Probably an update offered every year or two depending on demand. However the upgrade must be done by the dealer, says Toyota, presumably because of the way the system is installed in the trunk. Cost unknown but probably mostly labor.

    I was told that this system is basically the same as the Camry and Lexus though some differences about the screen and things like the integrated telephony for the Lexus.

    So I guess I'm still interested in feedback from those who have used it.
  • cliffy1cliffy1 Member Posts: 3,581
    My understanding is that Southern portions of Canada and Northern portions of Mexico are included. Updates will be fairly easy and obtainable through the parts department you your dealership.

    Other than that, Melen is right on.
  • 2002ncprius2002ncprius Member Posts: 2
    First I want to ask if anyone knows where one might obtain a better (higher up) center armrest/center storage container for the Prius? The factory driver center armrest is quite low down, and doesn't do much justice to the right arm when driving; what I would like to have is a higher armrest/storage containers that takes the stress off the right arm.

    Delivered two weeks ago (after about a 3 month wait, the great news is I now own the U.S. 2002 Prius with all of their options and it's incredible!
    1. The navigation system works great.
    2. The vehicle is very quiet (to outside sounds).
    3. People ask me about the car all the time.
    4. The radio is better than previous comments suggest.
    5. It has a compact and easy to operate in-dash multiple-CD changer (who uses cassettes anymore!).
    6. I recommend the side airbags installed on the front seats.
    7. You will appreciate the cruise control although I found it slightly "jerky" due to having both gas and electric modes of movement.

    Overall I enjoy the quality of Toyota products (after owning a 5 year old Camry with 120K mileage and my family all owning Toyotas) and think you would be crazy to consider the small Honda hybrid. I also recommend reading an interesting article about both vehicles in the December 2001 edition of Reader's Digest.
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    ...which will be here in March, and early reviews say that as a car in the real world, it is better than both the Insight [no great feat] AND the Prius.

    I've owned several Hondas and a dozen Toyotas, and don't see huge differences in quality and reliability between the two, but the driving experience can be very different. If I were a serious customer for a hybrid sedan, I would wait to try both cars before making a final decision.
  • carleton1carleton1 Member Posts: 560
    Yes. People would be crazy to wait for a Honda Civic Hybrid rather than get a Prius with proven Toyota reliability. I own neither Honda nor Toyota but based on reading in Town Hall, talking to owners of all vehicles, the Toyota is a far wiser choice.
  • jrct9454jrct9454 Member Posts: 2,363
    ...I can tell you that the above response is just nonsense. Believe what you want, though...these things tend to be religious, not objective.
  • dsgechodsgecho Member Posts: 89
    In random order maybe these thoughts would help:
    1. Custom armrest for the Prius on-line at www.coastaletech.com. 5" or 7" height, quality, and worth the price. Other accessories available too.
    2. The old adage about don't get a car in the first model year is perhaps applicable. I had a 2001 Prius and sold it to get into a 2002.The first model year was overall very good but you can tell some better differences in the 2002. I bet the Honda HEV will be a REALLY COOL car and already want one. But I really would wait for the 2003 model if possible.
    3. The Honda press release states their HEV is the most fuel-efficient HEV sedan in America at 50 mpg. Well, come on, many of us get above 50 mpg on almost every trip we take in the Prius [2001 OR 2002] that is over 10-15 minutes driving time. So I would be happy to test that statement further. At the same time, I bet the Civic will be very good in its economy.
    4. I am a relatively rabid Toyo fan but I would not want to try to make a living betting against Honda in the reliability department. Either one will be a great HEV. So if you really have a problem choosing and you can afford/need two vehicle- get one of each!!
    Don Nashville, TN
  • carleton1carleton1 Member Posts: 560
    Call it nonsense if you that makes you happy. Facts are facts. Toyota across the board makes more dependable, reliable vehicles than does any other company.
    We know many people who own each brand and there are many Hondas with reliability problems but NOT one Toyota.
    Look at the facts: Honda put an impractical 2 seater hybrid on the market while Toyota made the 5 passenger Prius. Maybe Honda will get it right if they are successful in copying Toyota.
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    A two seater hybrid hatch-back (aka the Insight) is hardly impractical & would venture to say lots on the Yahoo Insight list feel the same. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/honda-insight/ There is *nothing* wrong with the Prius, when is Detroit going to come out & play or are they just going to talk about it thus handing the HEV market over to Honda / Toyota ?
  • rfruthrfruth Member Posts: 630
    There is a Yahoo Prius list for those that are interested http://groups.yahoo.com/group/toyota-prius/
  • carleton1carleton1 Member Posts: 560
    And while cruising at 66 MPH it passed us. I think the Prius would be most effective in a highly urban area with a moderate climate like Los Angeles or the Bay area of California. The extreme heat and cold of Denver-Salt Lake area may not be very good for efficiency of hybrid.
  • jcole01108jcole01108 Member Posts: 1
    I should be getting my prius shortly, as in next week. I found a dealer who had a couple of people back out or their orders and so I picked one up.

    Has anyone gotten a Prius for under the MSRP? The dealer told me that Prius is going for more than than that on occasion.

    What experience do people have with driving the prius in mountainous country during the winter?

    I want to take it up to my country place in Vermont, but I have some concerns about how it will do in the snow and the cold.
  • dsgechodsgecho Member Posts: 89
    Go to he website in post 798 anduse their archive to search for mountain driving. Basically the same as any FWD vehicle. There is a fella there called Jon1701a that has well documented winter in MN.
    Don
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