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Dodge/Plymouth/Chrysler Minivan Problems & Solutions

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Comments

  • eickmeiereickmeier Member Posts: 19
    I don't think there is any need to flush the transmission. It is true that only about half the transmission fluid will be changed at any one time as I believe half the fluid remains in the torque converter. With this in mind, I first changed the fluid and filter at about 17K miles back at the first of the year. I decided to do another fluid change with no filter change just last week. So I have now changed approximately 75% of the original fluid. I think I will now change fluid every year with a filter change every other year.
    Oil and oil filter choices are hard to call. Everybody has their own opinions. I recently looked at a lot of information and found out that Fram oil filters are generally not recommended due to cheap construction. I have also decided that synthetic motor oil is probably a wise investment. I now second vcheng and I am using Mobil 1 5W-30 synthetic motor oil and a Mobil 1 High-Efficiency filter. I also think I will change oil and filter every 5K miles or 6 months. I got a good deal recently at AutoZone. They have a special going where five quarts of Mobil 1 and a Mobil 1 filter will run about $25. This is a very good deal.
  • xingze_caixingze_cai Member Posts: 47
    I searched some car shop and found the latest service manual they have is till year 96. Any of you know the place where I can get the manual for 97 and 98?
  • vchengvcheng Member Posts: 1,284
    I got the Haynes manual for 1996-1999 years from Pep Boys for around $10. It omits some steps in some procedures, but is a reasonable starting point. (Chilton's manual is about $25 from Border's Books, while the original DaimlerChrysler manual is about $100. I have not seen the last two myself.)
  • thebrakemanthebrakeman Member Posts: 18
    ....for my '97 T&C and my '89 Ford Probe GT and have been very happy with them.
  • xingze_caixingze_cai Member Posts: 47
    Hi Vcheng and eickmeier, thanks for your comments on engine oil type! Is synthetic oil much better than those non-synthetic oil? I will probably move to synthetic oil soon. Can I just simply change to synthetic type oil in my next oil change or I need to do sth. before the "hand over"? And is synthetic oil benefit on all kinds of cars?
  • ahrncityahrncity Member Posts: 1
    I own a 99 Caravan, purchased new--short wheel base, 6c, 3.3 L engine.

    It's generally been good, but I've been experiencing two nagging problems: acceleration from 0 to 30 is fine, but I notice a lag when I accelerate to pass on the highway. Thought it may just be the way it's engineered, but I routinely drive Caravans/Voyagers at work (97, 98 and 99 models) with 6c, 3.0 L engines, and have never experienced this lag with these vehicles. Took it in to the dealer, and as expected, everything seemed fine to them. Has anyone else out there experienced a similar problem? Could it be something peculiar to the 3.3L engines?

    A second issue is gas mileage. The EPA rating for this vehicle is 18 mpg/city. I got that for the first few months, but for over the winter it dropped to 15-16 and has pretty much stayed in that range, even with the warm weather (assuming that could be a factor). We didn't change our driving habits or behavior, so I've been a bit frustrated. It just pains me to be getting below EPA ratings, especially with gas prices being what they are these days. Again, took it to the dealership, which said everything was "fine." (I asked their mechanic who tested the vehicle to call me back to explain; he never did.)

    Seems like I'm getting the worst of both worlds: poor acceleration, and poor gas mileage.

    Would appreciate any and all suggestions/words of advice.

    Thanks.
  • cesarpcesarp Member Posts: 47
    I would suggest going back to the dealer and ask that a drive specialist go along for a ride with you (you do the driving). Make sure that he/she takes the OBD scanner along for sensor monotoring. While the vehicle is being driven, the drive specialist will be able to monitor all sensors and hopefully detect something that is out of factory parameters. Often times, the technician does not have all the facts from the service writers and they'll only scan for fault codes. Good luck.
  • 1lowrider1lowrider Member Posts: 5
    I have a '96 Grand Caravan (3.3). I've had a problem with vehicle hesitating when leaving stop signs. On a few occasions the car died. I've taken it to the shop three times and, of course, it doesn't do it for them. Has anyone had this problem? If so, were you able to resolve it? Thanks.
  • xingze_caixingze_cai Member Posts: 47
    Hi Vcheng and eickmeier,

    When I purchased the fluid and filter from the Dodge dealer, they said there is no separate gasket, and they suggest to use RVT sealant, etc. Is the gasket come with the new filter package? Or I need to buy it somewhere else? If I use the gasket, should I still use the RVT sealant also? Thanks!
  • vchengvcheng Member Posts: 1,284
    xingze_cai:

    You can use RTV sealant for a gasket, the only disadvantage being cleaning it all off at the next change, which can be a pain.

    Your Dodge dealer is wrong. There is a TSB that details the availability of a reusable pan gasket. You can either get this from you dealer, or use an aftermarket kit that comes with a gasket.

    For a proper seal, only one thing (RTV or gasket) should be used.

    Either way, proper cleaning is ESSENTIAL to ensure that there are no leaks.
  • vchengvcheng Member Posts: 1,284
    Check out the fora for Engine Oil and Synthetic Oil. There are a lot of opinions and some good data in these.

    Personally, I used ordinary oil for the first 10,000 miles changed every 2500 miles, and now have moved to all synthetic every 5,000 miles, with a filter at every change. I do the transmission thing every 10,000 miles, with a chassis lube and tire rotation/air pressure check. I check the air filter periodically and replace if required. Other than that, I just fill up and drive.

    What you decide is upto you. Good Luck.
  • eickmeiereickmeier Member Posts: 19
    Xingze cai, you can get high-quality automatic transmission gaskets from many auto parts stores. I recently bought a very nice, thick rubberized pan gasket at a NAPA place for all of about $3. I personally won't use RTV because of the difficulty in removing it the next time the pan is removed. I have never had any problems with a gasket when the pan has been properly tightened.
    I have also purchased my transmission filters at these places, although I have heard recommendations to get the filters from a Dodge dealer. For me the auto parts places are more convenient. I seem not to have had any problems using filters from these sources.
    I also have a question for hoofer. With the spectrographic oil analysis you appear to get some interesting data. How specifically can impending problems be diagnosed in this way? Is it just an indication of general engine condition or can you pinpoint specific problems in advance?
  • hooferhoofer Member Posts: 43
    1. Spectrographic oil analysis done on a regular basis (I do every other oil change on my engine and once per year on the transmission) can detect problems in their incipient stage.

    An example would be detecting abnormal fuel levels in the oil. This tells you that there is a problem with the fuel system (e.g. sticking injector) before it causes premature engine failure from thinning out the oil.

    It could also detect coolant in the oil, alerting you to a possible head gasket failure.

    Wear metals can alert you to eventual bearing failure before your engine is wrecked.

    2. I have a 1996 and a 2000 GC with 3.3L. I am also having poorer fuel economy with the 2000. I get around 20mpg with the 1996 and 16 with the 2000. I am investigating. I suspect some programming change with the PCM (maybe for performance).

    3. See alldata.com or nhtsa.dot.gov for a TSB on a new reusable aluminum gasket for the transmissions.

    best of luck
  • hooferhoofer Member Posts: 43
    Have you checked your Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTCs) on your 1996 Caravan?

    You can do this on 96 & 97's by doing the following:

    1. With engine OFF, turn the key to the "run" position (just before the point where the starter is engaged) and back to "off" as so:

    ON-OFF-ON-OFF-ON (do within 5 seconds)

    2. The Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) or "check engine" light will flash two digit codes:

    would be "23".

    A "55" is end of file. If this is all you get, you have no DTCs stored.

    You can get more info. on what the codes mean and how the Powertrain Control Module (PCM - the computer that runs the engine) works at:

    www.alldata.com
    www.obdii.com

    If you have DTCs, go to the dealership and they can connect the DRB and find out what is wrong. Could be a faulty sensor (e.g. O2 sensor).

    Make sure that your PM is up to date. You should clean the throttle body every 12/12, the fuel injectors every 24/24, the air filter every 12/12.

    best of luck
  • swampcollieswampcollie Member Posts: 87
    should set up a website for the rest of us to refer to. Thanks hoofer for this kind of great info.... this is what sites like this are great for rather than "my van is better than your van because...."...
  • cesarpcesarp Member Posts: 47
    The only bad news for the rest of us is from 1999 and on code access is only available through OBDII scanner. I found a couple of scanner for about $150.00. One of the scanner is from JC Whitney and another is a software for the PC. I kind of like the PC version since it has lifetime software updates and access to over 200 diagnostic procedures. There is also hidden features in engine computer that can be retrieved such as engine hours and etc. Let me know if anyone is interested and I'll try to find the web page for the PC version ODBII scanner.
  • swampcollieswampcollie Member Posts: 87
    just checked on my 99. now i went out..pushed both..turned key on and waited 5 seconds...didnt work..turned iginition back off and tried it again.. this time it went through the checks... so it works on a 99 GC with the 3.8.
  • swampcollieswampcollie Member Posts: 87
    go through the checks..i was in a hurry..will look closer tomorrow.. didnt look for codes...
  • swampcollieswampcollie Member Posts: 87
    thing to do in front of my friends. before you take off, say need to check my codes..then say everything seems ok..fasten your seatbelts please. we will be cruising at 70mph at an altitude of 2 feet . ETA in St Louis is 3:37 pm. weather in St Louis is...etc.. pull out to the street..stop..check your gauges..adjust mirrors..then go..once your clear of town have your copilot serve refreshments.
  • hooferhoofer Member Posts: 43
    on my 2000 GC in the AM and see if it works. Thanks for the tip.

    Hoofer
  • cesarpcesarp Member Posts: 47
    Scanner, my mistake. I've tried the odo/trip on the 2000 T&C and it does display codes. However, the code it displays on these vehicles are limited. For example, it'll display the computer detected an engine missfire but won't show which cylinder registered. For this application, an OBDII scanner is necessary. I going to invest in OBDII scanner for the PC since I've two vehicles that can benefit from it. The web site for this scanner is www.obd-2.com, it's not bad for $122.00.
  • gaggergagger Member Posts: 1
    I leased a 1998 Dodge Caravan and have been pleased with it except for the brakes. They were ok until a year ago when the Dodge dealership changed the pads (@ 28K miles) & they went soft. I've had it in a few times for re-repair & took it to a couple independent auto shops, but everyone says it's normal to be that soft. I'm not buying it.

    Anyone have this same problem ?
  • eickmeiereickmeier Member Posts: 19
    Has anybody personally cleaned their throttle body? About three years ago my '90 Caravan 3L V6/3-sp. started stalling at stops signs with the AC on. This was right before a long summer vacation trip so I took it in. Diagnosis: dirty throttle body. Cost was ca. $200 to clean. The ticket showed a $5 gasket, $4 in cleaning solvent, $5 for shop towels and misc. and the remainder for driveability analysis, diagnosis and labor! I have several questions.
    With the fuel injection downstream of the throttle body, how does it get gummed up and dirty? Seems like only air is metered through the throttle body. It looks like you can check this simply by removing the inlet from the air filter housing and taking a peek. If it is dirty, can it be cleaned in place? I have seen at the NAPA store, throttle body cleaner in a pressurized container that will spray upside down which would make in-place cleaning pretty easy. If this is a relative simple and easy procedure, I could do this say once a year. As I recall, regular throttle body cleaning is not included in the maintenance schedule. The reason I ask is that the idle is starting to get a little ragged it is beginning to act like it did prior to the last (and only) cleaning that was done. I also recall a recent post suggesting this every 12/12. Thanks for your input.
  • thebrakemanthebrakeman Member Posts: 18
    Your rear drum brakes may be out of adjustment. They are designed to adjust automatically as the linings wear, but sometimes they need some help.

    Good luck
  • scannerscanner Member Posts: 295
    Congratulations, you are the first person that I can recall who has mentioned to check the adjustment of the rear brakes. I always figured those who were replacing their front brake pads prematurely probably had rear brakes that were out of adjustment. Periodically appling the parking brake while backing seems to help keep the rear brakes adjusted.

    Rear brakes are probably out of adjustment if the parking brake sinks to the floor when set, or if the vehicle rolls when the parking brake is set.

    Just another one of those rarely mentioned scheduled maintenance items to checked periodically. Same thing applies to cleaning the throttle body, but it seems most prefer to wait until they need brakes or the vans begins to stall.

    Since we're on a roll, perhaps someone will mention the scheduled maintenance that helps prevent failure of the water pump, thermostat, and radiator? This is an easy one, but I'm still waiting for someone to mention this one too. I can't believe it took 2+ years for someone to mentioned how to access codes and to how help prevent premature front brake pad wear; and all in the last 2 weeks no less! The throttle body cleaning has been mentioned before, but it's usually forgotten.


    How to clean the throttle body:
    http://www.allpar.com/fix/throttlebodycleaning.html
  • cesarpcesarp Member Posts: 47
    I didn't join in these discussion earlier because of all the product bashing and flaming that went to these threads. But now that's more "friendlier" I'm willing to contribute where I can.

    You have an excellent point about cooling system maintenance. I always replace the coolant fluid every fall and all radiator hoses and thermostat every four years on my vehicles. Water pump gets replaced with every timing belt change whether it needs or not (for the 3.0L and 3.5L engines and any other engine that needs time belt replacement). The reason the water pump gets replaced at the same time with timing belt is because of labor involved. To replace the water pump, the timing belt needs to be loosened. Therefore the little extra labor involved replacing water pump then is no big deal. Radiator replacement, when needed, but do regular inspection for leaks or cracks around the plastic housings. From personal experience, use good quality hoses from a reputable auto store or dealer (use cheap hoses, you'll pay big $$ later). Also,when replacing coolant use distilled water to reduce minerals accumulation to the radiator core and engine. If you ever seen (movies don't apply) a old steam engine refill it's water tanks, noticed that it'll flush it's boiler first to remove mineral before accepting new water. Fortunately, our new T&C does not need coolant change for 100,000 miles or five years. Too bad I can't use this coolant on my 97 Eagle Vision.

    SOFT BRAKES

    As Thebrakeman pointed out, the rear brakes need adjustment, assuming they're drum brakes (AWD have disc brakes). The self adjusting brake mechanism works when the vehicle is moving backwards when the brake pedal is applied. However, in order for them to work properly, the brake pedal needs to be press hard. But I find checking and adjusting the rear brakes the old fashion way a lot easier. That is, blocking front wheels w/transmission in park and elevating the rear wheels with parking brake released. Spin the rear wheel and if there is no resistance, the rear brake(s) will need to be adjusted. The rear brakes can be adjusted manually with a drum brake adjusting tool and is fairly simple. Let us know if you need instructions in adjusting the rear brakes.

    THROTTLE BODY CLEANING

    Eickmeier, done quite a few throttle body cleaning in our 88 GC with 3.0L. The throttle body needs peridioc cleaning due to carbon deposit accumulation. The website Scanner has suggested has a very good throttle body cleaning procedure. The job is fairly simple and doen't take that much time.
  • swampcollieswampcollie Member Posts: 87
    checked the throttle body cleaning sight...it did not show the 3.8, but assume that since the 3.8 is a modified 3.3 that you would use the technique described for the 3.3. correct?
    this is getting so good i could cry.
  • xingze_caixingze_cai Member Posts: 47
    Vcheng,

    What chassis lube is normally required for Caravan? Also, how often is the coolant service needed? Did you have this experience before? Thanks!
  • cesarpcesarp Member Posts: 47
    Your assumption is correct, the throttle body cleaning procedure is the same for 3.8L. Want a box of Kleenex?

    Cesar
  • xingze_caixingze_cai Member Posts: 47
    Hi Vcheng and Bill Eickmeier,

    I got my transmission fluid and filter changed this morning, you are right, it's quite hard to take off the pan and clean those sealant, it took me 2 hours and I finally got the pan off, thanks for your very good descriptions. By the way, I got 2 questions here for you:

    1. I found there is a magnet inside the pan and I can't figure out its purpose, after I cleaned it, I just put it inside the pan and it may not be placed in the same location as before, and I don't know if this is a problem.

    2. I tried to tighten the new filter into those 3 holes, but I'm not sure if it will drop down inside the pan because it is face down and there is no tool such as bolt or screw to fix it into any where, is this also a problem? Thanks again!
  • vchengvcheng Member Posts: 1,284
    The magnet is to capture metallic debris, and you did the right thing by cleaning it and putting it back. I think mine was towards the rear of the pan off to the passenger side, but I think any location towards the rear of the pan will do.

    For the filter, as long as you pushed it into all the mounting pins, and installed the O-ring correctly, it will stay in place.

    By the way, I added an extra Hayden transmission oil cooler to my van this weekend. I don't know what good it will do or whether it was really needed (The GC Sport has an auxiliary cooler), but I guess I just wanted some peace of mind.

    I think I have already posted how to install grease fittings above in this forum. I do it every 10K alongwith a tire rotation.

    I think I will change the coolant at two years. I haven't done it yet, but it seems to be a fairly easy job. Get a coolant checker (97 cents at Wal-Mart) and go by it if your van is older.
  • vchengvcheng Member Posts: 1,284
    xingxe_cai: Please check my post #318 in this forum above for the chassis lube. (I also lubricate small parts like hinges, sliders, locks etc.)
  • eickmeiereickmeier Member Posts: 19
    Enthused by recent posts, I cleaned the throttle body on my '90 Carvan 3.0L V6 this weekend. This was done once before about five years ago for big bucks at the dealer when the van kept stalling at stop signs with the AC running. The idle had again gotten a little rough and I thought it would be worth a try. It cost all of $3 for parts. The throttle body gasket was a whopping $1.29, about $1.50 for carb/throttle body cleaner (on sale!), and a few cents to the state of Tennessee for sales tax.
    The Mopar site mentioned in an earlier post was helpful. It was an easy job except that I couldn't remove the AIS motor as suggested. It is held to the throttle body with two Torx screws. The first one loosened up nicely but the second started to strip before I could loosen it. I decided to leave well enough alone and cleaned the throttle body with the motor in place. I worked the inlet and the outlet for the idle air circuit well with the cleaner. There was quite a bit of carbon and gunk that got blown out. I am sure I would have done a better job if I could have removed the motor and the, get this for a great word, "pintel" that controls the size of the opening for the idle air flow. There also was a fair amount of carbon on the throttle plate and in the bore. I was quite pleasantly surprised by the result. The idle is now much smoother and it seems a little faster as well. All in all, it was a most gratifying and inexpensive job that took all of 30 minutes.
    Xingze cai, congratulations on your transmission fluid and filter change. I too was a little worried about the press-fit filter for the 4-sp. As long as you got it properly seated so that it didn't pull away from its mounting when unsupported there is no problem. The filter for the 3-speed is held in place by two Torx screws; I like this arrangement much better. There is no guesswork in getting it properly attached to the transmission.
    I also appreciate the nature of the recent posts. These have really been most informative and helpful.
  • eickmeiereickmeier Member Posts: 19
    To my surprise, my '99 base Grand Caravan with 3.3L V6 and 4-sp transmission came equiped with a transmission oil cooler. Late last year I decided to add an oil cooler as insurance against transmission failure and was ready to head to the parts store to buy one. Before I went I wanted to take a look at potential mounting positions and size limitations and, lo and behold, there it was, my factory installed transmission oil cooler. It is rather small but I don't plan to do any towing so it should be ok. What a surprise!
  • vchengvcheng Member Posts: 1,284
    All GCs have a transmission oil cooler in the passenger side of the radiator. The Sport models get an extra one in front of the AC condenser on the driver's side. (I am not sure about other models.) GCs with rear air get an extra condenser in front of AC condenser on the passenger side.

    It may be overkill, but I wanted to be cautious, so I added a third transmission oil cooler below the extra condenser and spliced it into the lines to the auxiliary cooler.

    Only time will tell if this thing will pay for itself. I have only a little less than 11K on the van right now. I hope that if I service the transmission regularly, it will last me longer.
  • vchengvcheng Member Posts: 1,284
    The first oil cooler is on the DRIVER'S side of the vehicle, as is the second. Sorry about that, I guess lying under the van confuses me!
  • eickmeiereickmeier Member Posts: 19
    Vcheng, I am not talking about the in-radiator coolers. What I described was an auxiliary external cooler attached to the upper right portion of the radiator (as viewed from in front). It is about three in. tall, by 10 in. wide, by 3/4 in. thick and has hoses that run to the in-radiator cooler on the driver's side of the radiator. I know that there can be two in-radiator coolers, one on the driver's side and a second on the passenger's side. My van is a base GC. I guess I am still confused by your description.
  • vchengvcheng Member Posts: 1,284
    I think there are several combinations possible. I am not sure about all of them. The Hayne's manual I have lists a cooler in the left of the radiator, plus an optional cooler that is in the right of the radiator, with lines between them running along the fan shroud.

    From your description, my GC Sport has the same extra outside-of-radiator oil cooler that your van has, which leads me to believe that the towing package replaces this second cooler with a bigger one (my van does not have the tow package).

    Does your van have the rear heat/AC? If so, there is an AC condenser, which is of course different form an oil cooler. This condenser is on the passenger side, in front of the man condenser.

    Let me try to make a figure. Assuming the front of the vehicle is towards the bottom of the screen (ie looking at the radiator from the top), my vans layout was:

    RRRRRRRRRRRROC1
    MCMCMCMCMCMCMC
    ECECE OC2OC2

    where R is the radiator, OC1 is the internal transmission oil cooler, MC is the main AC condenser, EC is the extra AC condenser and OC2 is the transmission oil cooler you and I already have on the van.

    With the cooler that I have added:

    RRRRRRRRRRRROC1
    MCMCMCMCMCMCMC
    ECECE OC2OC2
    OC3OC3

    Where OC3 is the Hayden unit, positioned BELOW the extra condenser, not in front of it.

    (I wish I had the time to take pictures, but I was working alone, and couldn't use the camera with dirty hands.)

    So, here are my guesses:

    For all vans:

    RRRRRRRRRRRROC1
    MCMCMCMCMCMCMC

    (assuming AC is standard)

    Per Hayne's manual:

    OC2RRRRRRRRRRRROC1
    MCMCMCMCMCMCMCMCMC

    (My van doesn't have this.)

    For GCs with rear AC:

    RRRRRRRRRRRROC1
    MCMCMCMCMCMCMC
    ECECEC (?OC2OC2?)

    (But I think all of these have OC2 as well.)

    Please let me know if this is all gibberish, or if I have succeeded in getting my description across.

    Anyway, regardless of the factory equipment, my point was that I added an extra transmission oil cooler
  • hooferhoofer Member Posts: 43
    A while back we were talking about OBDII and DTCs, transmission troubles, and fuel economy. Here are some updates from my GC fleet.

    FYI on DTCs:

    I did the trip/reset/5 second trick on both my 1996 and 2000 GC (3.3L). They both do the "check 1,2,3", but these are not DTCs.

    My buddy the Dodge Service manager tells me that this is just a calibration for the gages and instrument cluster. Only the 96-97 models will spit out DTCs using the ON-OFF-ON-OFF-ON method.

    I haven't found anything else on this "trip" check, but remember reading about it somewhere. Will advise.

    I plan on buying a DRB, maybe one of the types that hooks to your own PC (www.obdii.com).

    Update on transaxle problems:

    I got the latest spectrographic oil analysis back on my 1996 GC and it now shows normal levels of silicon (dirt/sand) and aluminum (this is a complete reversal from the upward trend in aluminum and has me scratching my head). I will retest in another 1,000 miles to establish trends. I am pleased about the Al numbers. I looks like I got enough dirt out to stop the abnormal wear of the softer aluminum parts. Still not experiencing any tranny problems at 65,000 - crossing my fingers based on all the complaints I see about trannys.

    Chrysler changed the tranny filter and the 5 +/- quarts of oil that go with that on my 2000 GC under warranty, but refused to do a power flush. I put 1,000 miles on it last week, so I'll pull a sample and send it off this week. If I still get abnormal silicon (which I expect) I'll do a powerflush out of my own pocket and retest. I'll keep doing this until the levels drop to the normal level.

    My advice to any car owner, especially Caravans, is to do a transmission powerflush ASAP and then every 24/24 - 36/36 after that. I think that the silicon is chewing them up inside.

    The Penske shop close to me (in Kmart) has a tech that knows how to do these right (and knows to use the 2126 Chrysler oil) for about $80 which is 50% of the dealership price (the dealership got tranny fluid all over the front of the car too). Check around and find somebody who can do these RIGHT.

    Wherever you get your tranny work done, WATCH them put in the correct 2126 fluid. DO NOT let them use Dextron III.

    I still recommend spectrographic oil analysis. At $7.50 per test, it is cheap "insurance" and can give you a heads up on incipient problems before they become big, expensive ones.

    It looks like I may have headed-off two expensive transmission repairs thanks to the early warning I got from spectrographic analysis. You can order a 6-pack of spectrographic oil analysis kits for $45 plus tax ($7.50 each) from www.schaefferoil.com. Get the 800# off their website. This is the best price I have found for this service.

    MPG

    My 2000 GC with 4,000 miles only got 19.3 mpg on the highway last week. Of course I had a family of 5, car top carrier, boo coo luggage, and was averaging 75 mph. Oh yeah, the AC was on. Still, without the cartop carrier, my 1996 would get about 22-23.

    My 1996 gets 20 mpg around town vs. 16 mpg on my 2000 (again both are the 3.3L). I am still trying to figure out the disparity. Must be in the gear ratios or programming. Still being studied.

    best of luck
  • eickmeiereickmeier Member Posts: 19
    Vcheng, I now understand your oil cooler configuration. My van doesn't have rear heat/air so it lacks the second AC condenser. My oil cooler is in the same position as OC2 in your creative figure. I was also aware from the Haynes manual of the in-radiator cooler options and it seems an external oil to air cooler would be more efficient. I wonder if there would be a way to now monitor the transmission temperature with your tandem oil cooler arrangement to see how effective it turns out to be?
  • indydriverindydriver Member Posts: 620
    great info on the oil analysis, please keep it coming. I have a '90 that blew its tranny at 68,500--fortunately in the days of 7/70. I now have 130K on the van (62,000 on the 2nd trans) so I've been concerned about how long it will last. I have the tow package with the extra cooler by the way. I'm in the process of buying a 2000 GSC and I think I'll skip the analysis and just get the trans serviced at 15K. Why won't your DC dealer do the flush? Will my SM know what I'm talking about when I tell him I want 'The Flush'?
  • scannerscanner Member Posts: 295
    Hoofer,

    I've heard of 7176 and 9602, but what is 2126? Is this a typo? Doesn't the 2000 model year Chrysler minivans use ATF+4(9602) while the pre 2000's use ATF+3(7176)? Maybe this could explain some of the differences between the spectrographic fluid analysis with your 96' and 00'. I wouldn't worry too much about silicon contamination chewing up the transmission since the purpose of the filter is to trap any particles large enough to do serious harm. Have you ever tested pure ATF out of the bottle? I would be interested in learning what both types of ATF are made of. Does ATF contain traces of aluminum and other elements right out of the bottle?

    Also, the down side to flushing a transmission is the AT filter isn't changed.

    I figure an AT fluid and filter change at 15K miles to clear out anything left behind during manufacturing, then at maximum mileage intervals of 30K there after is a good idea. I change the AT fluid and filter in my 97' at least every 30K miles since I figure it is kind of like having your AT fluid changed once "in theory" by 100K miles since only 1/3 of the fluid is actually changed.

    The life expectancy of transmission fluid under "normal" conditions is 100K miles, but it's arguably too late to have it changed if you wait until 100K miles.

    Check out the following link. My owner's manual says the normal transmission operating temperature is 180 degrees.

    http://www.autotune.com/techtips/trans.html
  • cesarpcesarp Member Posts: 47
    Haven't herd of 2126 either and our 2000 T&C uses ATF+4 while the transfer case for AWD unit uses ATF+3. My local dealer recommends transmission fluid and filter changed every 30,000 miles for normal driving which they include any software update for the engine/transmission controller as well. I believe in the very near future ATF+4(9602), which is a half synthetic blend, will be used on older transmissions by updating the transmission controller. Does any one know what are the benefits of ATF+4?

    Scanner,

    That is an interesting web site. The trans controller monitors the transmission temperature (don't know which year it begin) and I think it can be displayed using a OBDII scan tool. I'll be ordering an OBDII scanner soon and am curious if this is true and what temperature the factory consider "normal operating parameters".
  • hooferhoofer Member Posts: 43
    Yep, it was early, before my second cup of coffee. I meant Type 7176 ATF which is what my 1996 GC uses. The bottom line is to watch them put in the correct kind, not Mercon.

    The dealership should know what a tranny flush is (total transmission fluid replacement vs. just the filter and 5 or so quarts). They may not all offer it since it takes a special machine. My 5 Star dealer does.

    The Chrysler rep. didn't want to pay for any tranny service on a car with 2-3k miles. I had to b*tch and then he agreed to do the cheapest one to shut me up.

    As for the filter protecting you from smaller contaminants, I disagree. That is why I was getting wear metals and why they have disappeared now that the silicon is down to acceptable levels.

    The wear is going on at the microscopic level. It is the stuff that is too SMALL for the filter to catch that is circulating and causing the damage.

    Also, I did the filter change first on both GC's. Then the (multiple) flushes. I was told that this is a back-flush and cleans the filter media. Maybe some real wrench turner can confirm.

    I have taken a second sample from my 2000 and sent it for analysis. I will advise when I get the results. This will help to illustrate how just changing the 5 quarts is like taking a shower and putting your dirty clothes back on. The dirty oil contaminates the new. Yes it dilutes it, but not much.

    There are no real differences between the 1996 and 2000 analyses. They both have abnormal AL and silicon.

    As for testing a virgin sample to ensure that the lab is not reading additives (e.g. silicon can be an antifoaming additive in some hydrocarbon lubricants), no I have not. I have to identify the brand and type of fluid used, because they have to know that to account for different formulations. I was getting 262 ppm of silicon where the highest allowable under normal circumstances is about 40 or so ppm (I don't have my file right at hand, but 262 is WAY off the scale.

    Go to www.texaco.com and jump to the lubricants site. They have all the MSDS for their products and you can see contents.

    best of luck
  • indydriverindydriver Member Posts: 620
    Just drove home a new DC Sport today, and lovin' every minute of it. I admit I am very impressed with the original research you are doing on DC engines and transmissions--your conclusions strike me as very logical. As the owner of three Chryslers now, '90 GV with one replaced trans and 130K; '99 300M with two open-heart transmission surgeries and 42K; and a 2000 GC Sport with 80 miles, I am all ears on ways to increase the longevity of these vehicles. My personal experience has been that Chrysler engines are bulletproof but the trannies leave something to be desired. Why are you recommending waiting for 24/24 for the first tranny service if you are observing "severe" and "abnormal" results? You've got me thinking 10K on the first tranny service and 1K, then 3K on engine oil. You mentioned you had found a trans service store you could trust. How do I go about finding same in Indy?
  • hooferhoofer Member Posts: 43
    I said:

    "My advice to any car owner, especially Caravans,
    is to do a transmission powerflush ASAP and then
    every 24/24 - 36/36 after that. I think that the
    silicon is chewing them up inside."

    I would give it about 1,000 miles and then go have a power flush done. I would change my engine oil at 1,000 too. Both the tranny and engine of my 2000 GC Sport (3.3L) had excessive silicon in them at 1,000 miles.

    Many places do full tranny flushes. Just make sure that they use the correct tranny fluid, many will try to use Mercon as a "univeral".

    If you want to be sure, then use the dealership. Will cost about $150. I found the local Penske (at Kmart) has a former GM Dealership SM who can do a good job for about $80.

    I still recommend the spectrographic oil analysis. It only costs $7.50 a pop. You can have the mechanics collect a sample when they are changing oil or buy an inexpensive pump and pump a sample out of the dipstick tubes. The test kits work on both engine and transmission (or any other petroleum based lube oil).

    Here is the link for the oil pump:

    http://www.blkfeather.com/gadgets.htm

    You want the 12V DC fluid pump #OP-1 ($7.95 plus about $4.00 S/H < $13.00).

    best of luck
  • cesarpcesarp Member Posts: 47
    Just curious, does your 300M have factory auxiliary trans cooler?
  • acmeroadrunnracmeroadrunnr Member Posts: 81
    I just put a deposit on a 99 GC LE 3.8 AWD with 6400 miles on it. Is there anyone out there that has a '99 with AWD or has knowledge of the AWD system? I'd like to know if it is a solid design or if it is problematic.

    Thanks
  • indydriverindydriver Member Posts: 620
    Indeed, there is an auxilliary oil cooler mounted in front of the radiator on my '99 300M.
  • cesarpcesarp Member Posts: 47
    I've a 2000 T&C Limited AWD and it is great vehicle. To my knowledge the AWD design is solid.
    The only additional maintenance for AWD system is the transfer case fluid change every 30K miles intervals. Gas mileage is slightly less than FWD (by 1 MPG in both city and highway estimates). I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) the 1999 model year calls for ATF+3 transmission fluid for both automatic and transfer case. Check the owners manual on this and let us know. The 2000 models require ATF+4 for automatic and ATF+3 for the transfer case. Of note, do not use ATF+4 on the transfer case. Here is an additional info you may be suprised, although the vehicle is an AWD system it does not affect insurance rates! The system works by providing 90% power to the front wheels in normal driving conditions for improved fuel economy and the remainder goes to the rear wheels. Whenever either of the front wheels begins to slip, power is automatically transferred to the other non-sliping wheels. This system works for both forward and reverse motion. My advice is although the mileage is quite low and is still under factory warranty, you should have the vehicle inspected by and independent shop (I like to use AAA). Good luck.

    Cesar
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