Audi A6

timcar · March 2002

As Mark says, concensus seems to be 2004 for an '05 model for next major A6 redesign.

timcar · March 2002

Pete, where'ja find a W8 Passat?

pjcrage · March 2002

Tim:

A long time friend has a very successful VW/Audi dealership out of state and he was provided one for a short time to preview. He was kind enough to have me there to see it.

markcincinnati · March 2002

I have really poor German language skills, but I also can augment these skills at

www.freetranslation.com -- and therefore, so can you. So, without further hesitation. . . .

For a guided tour of the Passat W8 go to this URL:

http://www.volkswagen.de/home_e/index_.htm

Then drill down to the "Konfigurator" and you will see the German Passat W8. I have talked with a gentleman from the VWGUILD and have read the product announcements over at VWVORTEX.COM. Now that I have cited my sources, I will comment:

I consider the US Passat to be "kindof an Audi" -- an Audi A5 if you will. The current Passat GLX 4motion is a nice car -- it is not an Audi. Yet it is Audi-like. The web sites, my crummy translations and the early reports about the car in US car magazines, elevates the new Passat W8 considerably -- and it is not just because it has 8 cylinders.

What I have seen does not make me think that the Passat W8 is an Audi, but as Marlin Brando said "I coulda been a contender." The W8 will have much higher content (so says VWGUILD) than any Passat prior. It will have 17" wheels, bi-Xenons, ESP -- it will be a quattro, without the name, of course. It will probably max out in the high $30K's.

It supposedly will be aimed at Mercedes, not at BMW. Audi will still be the sport luxury vehicle, this new Passat will be the classic luxury vehicle (whatever that means).

There are pecking orders, corporate image and egos and, most importantly, market positioning that must be addressed -- and a 275 HP W8 "just wouldn't do" when the Audi has 250HP. Just as a VW 1.8T (at 180HP) that has more guts than an Audi -- at 170HP -- probably will only happen one time in a row!

My point was not to say I think the Passat W8 -- personally -- will confuse me, but I do think that there will be sufficient confusion in the marketplace to make the W8 at least for a year or two -- a sell out!

The MSRP of the W8 places it about $10,000 less than an A6 2.7T -- and my Audi dealer told me, right or wrong, horsepower is VERY important. Indeed, he said that the original NEW A6 in 1998 with the 2.8 engine came ONLY to the US with 200HP -- in all other countries it was 193HP -- Audi of America demanded it be so -- for "bragging rights" or market positioning or whatever else you want to call it -- to be perceived in the 200HP league.
Bluntly, to help make sales when the customer was looking, for example, at an Acura which DID have 200HP also (the thinking was a customer would value 200HP more than 193HP, so let's make ours 200HP too!)

Now, with 17" wheels and sticky summer tires and a possible (so I am told) sport suspension tuning -- which the first cars brought to the US did NOT have -- well, the differences may be more difficult to discern in a test drive.

nosho · March 2002

Can't recall where I read the following but:

As I understand it, the A6 will be major redesigned for the 2003 European market release. That's - surprise - January of 2003. It is destine for the US market in the MY2004. Then again, it could be a 2004.5 release.

I've only read one rumor of the redesign, and have not been able to find it again. The A6 will be designed for a closer 50/50 weight distribution to compete more directly with BMW.

I'm not holding my breath on the validity of these statements, but it's what I've seen in the rumor mill.

timcar · March 2002

Wish I had a friend like Pete's. It would be fun to compare the W8 to my '01 2.7T. Don't know the torque curve and gearing on the W8, but wouldn't be surprised if it felt less powerful than the 2.7T. I think I remember the press spec's showing a 0-60 higher than the 2.7T's. It's not MY primary focus, but it's hard to beat the 2.7T's low-down torque and Tip or 6-speed gearing.

chanr · March 2002

I am in the market for a upscale seden. So far, I am kind of leaning toward the A6 because of first being an European Car which I always like to drive one day, then its cost when comparing to BMW or Volvo or Mercedes Benz.

What kind of maintenace experience do you have with the Audi A6 especially with the 2002 model?

Thanks.

pjcrage · March 2002

Tim and Mark:

Don't get me wrong the VV8 was a solid and powerful car...no doubt about that and to the "non car" person, it would be a slam dunk in the mid to high $30's. But when you are very discriminating you acquire a sense of nuances. You two seem like you would see and feel the differences.

PC

pjcrage · March 2002

Roy:

I have had my '02 2.7T for about a month and I have had nothing but the most satisfying experience.

PC

markcincinnati · March 2002

Not having the experience of driving the new Passat W8 hampers any ability I have to make anything other than speculative comments. My overall remarks have been intended to be marketing remarks and observations, not driving observations. Moreover, a lot of people do not take cars out on extensive test drives -- and there are a lot of reasons this is so.

I read somewhere that Audi's cars are "greater than the sum of their parts" or words to that effect. The article probably in Car and Driver or some other American auto magazine was saying that their reason for ranking Audi's so high for so many years has nothing to do with any ONE area of superiority (e.g., acceleration, lateral g forces, braking etc) -- because Audi's generally do not win in any category (other than fit and finish). But Audi's are often chosen as the number one or number two cars in those "face offs" car magazines love to write about.

I remember reading the irate letters to the editor when an Audi (S4 as I recall) was chosen over a BMW 3 series -- the Bimmer was a couple of tenths of a second quicker to 60, had a bit more g force grip, etc -- but the Audi was chosen as the "better" of the two. "How could the lesser car be chosen as number one?" these letters to the editor would complain.

The articles about Audis often tout that they don't often "show off" as well in a couple miles of a test drive, but that Audi owners come to appreciate the strengths and character and performance of the Audi as time passes. Several of the articles seem to articulate what I assume many of us repeat Audi owners know: Audis are a synergistic collection of bits and pieces that as they function together create a driving experience that exceeds the probable expected outcome when (such and such a bit or piece is) measured "in isolation."

I would agree that a car that can go from 0 - 60mhp in 6.5 seconds would be "more desirable" than one that takes 7.2 seconds -- and (especially when the A6 came with the 2.8 engine) an A6 when compared to a 5 series (comparable) BMW usually was not as quick. And so on. The Audi feel and capability was (and is) learned by the driver -- over time. More time than all but the most lengthy and rigorous test drive may reveal (to the uninitiated).

I read an article about the FIRST W8's that the US press were allowed to test. They loved the car, overall, but said the suspension was tuned way way too soft and that the car had way too much body roll, dive and squat. Subsequently, through suspension and tire "recalibrations" the W8 Passat was, assuming what I have read is true, tuned to be much more Audi-like.

So here we have it -- lots of up market content, quattro all-wheel-drive, a 275 HP and 271 lb ft of torque 8 cylinder engine, about 85% of the size of an A6 (and the 2001.5 model Passats onward appear even closer in size than that), up market dealer treatment (Audi-like) and about $10,000 less than a (superficially) comparable Audi.

There are probably differences that most of us could discern between the VW and the Audi, and probably some non Audi / non VW owners could tell only a little difference between them -- in both look and feel and then the W8 statistics hit them on the one hand and the price whacks them on the other.

I do not want a VW Passat to have more grunt and guts and cost an amount that is not insignificantly less than my Audi. This is the conculsion many shoppers will (logically) come to. The W8 Passat will have to be a total success -- 5,000 of them brought in and sold -- sold very quickly I'll wager (and at MSRP).

Porsche did not want an Audi TT to "beat" the Boxster in any way -- especially if it went for less.

The situation with Porsche was remedied with more horsepower, among other important features.

I submit that Audi will be "compelled" to do the same.

My remarks are meant to be 100% marketing based -- I am not suggesting that the VW is now a substitute for the Audi for me or for most of the Audi fans on this page. Although, I would consider a W8 Passat if I could try one out with a 6sp manual transmission. But even so, I find it hard to conceive that I would think I was driving an Audi car -- Audi's have that certain je ne sais quois that we long time owners recognize quickly but again may not show up in a short test drive.

timcar · March 2002

I have an '01 2.7T with about 18K. I've only had to have an auxiliary cooling fan replaced. It seems that MOST A6's are on a par with MB & BMW for maintenance. The '02's should be the most statistically reliable of current generation A6's. All three car makes cost A LOT of money to maintain out of warranty, if you want to use dealer service, and plan on keeping the car much past it's initial warranty. I, like many others, suggest a good long-term warranty if you want to hold on to it.

ebrodsky · March 2002

Mark,

What do you mean by "bi"-xenons?

Eric

nosho · March 2002

ebrodsky,
not speaking from experience, but apparently the xenon Audis have xenon for the low beam and halogen for the high beam. Bi-xenon means both low and high beam lamps are xenon (or they're combined in one).

robo65 · March 2002

I am looking at buying the A6 3.0 Front Trak. I know it's the "low end" ride, the finance terms are very good.

Is the rear suspension an indepedent rear suspension? In the brouchure it says that it is a "torsional rigid beam axle", that leads me to believe it is not independent.

markcincinnati · March 2002

I agree, bi-xenons are generally one light source based (HID) but unlike "normal" xenon cars, bi-xenon cars will be both high and low beam HID. More and more cars will be coming with xenon low beams as the new models roll out -- Audi, BMW, Mercedes, VW and others will (of course) keep raising the bar, so to speak.

Bi-xenons are just one more step up.

mbnut1 · March 2002

The A6, older A4 and Passat frontrack's do not have the fully independent rear suspension that the quattros have. Which results in the frontracks not having as good ride qualities as the quattros. The ride quality improvement alone was reason enough for me to prefer a quattro A4. By the way this is not true of the new A4 which has the same rear fully independent rear suspension for both the frontrack and quattro cars.

timcar · March 2002

If you're buying the A6, you may make up in resale quite a bit of the extra money for the quattro. Don't know what your budget is, but the folks on the left coast are talking about $0 down 39 month 15K leases under $500 for the 2.7T! Wow!

nyccarguy · March 2002

My Parents are going to pick up their Ming Blue/Black leather A6 3.0Q this Saturday! They ordered the car and agreed on a price that was ok, but nothing special on a 3 year 15K mile lease. When the dealer called and said the car was in, my Dad called a few other dealers in the area that he hadn't called before and 2 of them gave him a lease price that was $80 a month cheaper (They cited lower costs of the car + new lease rates for their cheaper pricing). He called the dealer back who has his car in stock now and asked if he could don anything with the price. First the dealer flat out refused and said my Dad was getting the best price. My dad told the guy to check with his manager and see what he could do. The dealer met my Dad's price. $550/month 36 months/15K per year with all taxes included $0 down payment.

ebrodsky · March 2002

Any talk of tri-xenons? Low beams, high beams AND fog lights? Does everyone notice the sudden "drop off" of illumination in the xenons? Does anyone recommend having the angle of illumination adjusted?

Also, is there any chance that the 2003 or 2003.5 model will be substantially redesigned? The lease on my 2000 A6 2.7T 6M will be up in 2003, and I was hoping for something "new". I'll probably be leasing another A6 in August 2003.

timcar · March 2002

Sorry, no tri-xenon's with fog lights are being discussed.

Xenon's (And halogens) have a stair-step pattern so as not to blind on-coming drivers. If they're too low, they can be adjusted upward.

It's unlikely the 2003 model year A6 will be the next major redesign. Possibly late calendar year '03 as an '04 model, or maybe even the next year.

markcincinnati · March 2002

Read the latest CAR magazine (on newsstands now) for a fairly complete discussion of the Audi product lines coming in 03, 04 and 05 as I recall.

The A4 would appear to be "fixed" for a few cycles now with the 2002 model. The A6 will evolve somewhat, as it did in 2002 and in calendar 03 the 04 S4 will become available as will a "possible replacement" for the allroad (based on the VW show SUV -- The Magellan). The RS6, with pictures avail on audiworld.com shows the subtle design changes of the upcoming model. Who knows how the A6 family will evolve with its next generation (predicted for 04, in 03). What I have seen is a more A6 4.2 look for the "standard" A6's. I.E., the Audi family is going to look more hunkered down and agressive.

Read the CAR article, look at the pics and see if you agree.

cncarlson · March 2002

I turned in my '99 1.8T Quattro 5M this weekend for a '02 A6 3.0 FrontTrack. Got an unbelieveable deal with Audi Family Cash (loyalty program and the 1.1 MF for leases on the '02 A6). So far have been very pleased, the CVT transmission is amazing!! you never feel it shift it just accelerates like a rocket! And if you want to shift it has a 6-speed tiptronic option.
I was not going to come back to the Audi Family because of problems with my A4 (nothing that kept the car from driving, but nitpicky stuff). But based on research I did it seems my orginal A4 was a lemon, (sat on dealer lot too long, trade show car, or something to that affect). But what sealed the deal was the great service I have received from Jim Ellis here in Atlanta (Lee the service manager is great) and the salesperson Stacey Ellis, just made it easy. Especially after having gone to Infiniti to see the new G35 and being told they will not go below MSRP no matter what, well good luck with that!

BTW, The standard radio is fantastic!

nyccarguy · March 2002

Talk about 2 totally different animals. I thought for sure from some of your previous posts that you weren't going to get another Audi at all. You're going from an A4 1.8TQ stick to an A6 3.0 Multironic? What made you give up the manual (You could've gotten yourself into an A4 3.0 6 speed)? What made you give up Quattro? Congrats on your new ride!

cncarlson · March 2002

I needed the space of the A6 (growing family), so there went the manual (the 2.7T 6-speed was more than I wanted to spend). Also I wanted to get a car that my wife would occasionally like to drive, she can drive a stick, she is just "over it" at this point. The Quattro is a blast, but living in Atlanta, I really don't need it for inclement weather, and with the size of the A6, I don't drive it quite like I drove the A4 ;-)! This is the first time in 15+ years I have not had a manual at my disposal, not sure how that is going to play out! Will probably buy a cheap Miata for fun and shifting!

With the CVT transmission, you don't miss the manual as much because the shifting is so smooth and the power is immediately available. And at the end of the day, not other car with that amount of interior room and features, could touch the price.

markcincinnati · March 2002

Anyone have any information whatsoever on the engine lineup for 2003. Will it remain 3.0, 2.7T and 4.2? Will there be any change in power or transmission combination permutations? Will CVT be available with quattro?

I spoke with my dealer last nite and he says he thinks the "middle" A6 will go to 275HP. Any info on this "speculation." He said he thinks this is so the dealers will quit losing sales to Passats. He told me that he has lost a couple of A4 deals to Passats -- but the reason was that the Passat has power seats and the A4 1.8T does not. (NB: how crazy is this? Why wouldn't you sell any option anyone was willing to pay for -- the 1.8T can be had with power seats elsewhere -- and leather and parktronic and sat nav etc etc).

He thinks a 275HP W8 will hurt his A6 sales if the 2.7T (the middle car) can't have equal HP bragging rights (or better).

What's new pussycat?

lettia · March 2002

I have a question I am thinking a purchasing a 1998 Audi A6 what are some of the things that I should be warned about? I know they are pretty costly to repair. Is this really a good car to invest in? The car I am looking @ is sold for $18,000 with 43,000 miles on it. Blue ext. with tan int. Or should I just get a VW Passat GLX? I would like to honest opinions!
Thanks

markcincinnati · March 2002

If I were spending my nearly $20K on a car, and my choice was a used A6 and a new Passat GLX, I would probably go for the Passat. Even though I am an avid (or a rabid) quattro advocate, I also would like to have some money in my pocket -- I am concerned that the 1998 A6 (running naked -- that is without a warranty) would suck you dry financially.

But, on the other hand, it might be possible to get a new A6 3.0 on one of those super duper lease deals that are going on right now. I heard you can get one for 36 - 39 months for between $525 and $575 a month with no cap cost reduction. Hmmmm $18,000 would carry you for 33 months at $550/month -- and you would have full warranty and full maintenance and a 220 HP tiptronic transmission'd 2002 A6 -- then your last three payments would be an additional out of pocket of $1650. Just about the value of maintenance (routine) for 36 months.

Just a thought.

timcar · March 2002

Excerpt of news article with RS6 related info. See link for entire article.

"In addition to unveiling a working MMI for journalists to sample, Mr. Hunt confirmed that approximately 850 US-spec versions of the RS6 sedan will arrive in the US in the Spring of 2003. Pricing has yet to be set for the bi-turbo, 4.2-liter V8 RS6, but we do know that it will put out 450 horsepower at 6,500 rpm, generate 415 lb.-ft. of torque from 1,950 to 5,600 rpm, cover the 0-60 mph test in 4.9 seconds and will be governed to 155 mph.

The RS6 will incorporate Dynamic Ride Control (DRC), an active suspension using shock absorbers that are diagonally connected hydraulically to dampen the vehicle along both longitudinal and tranverse axes. According to Audi, DRC will virtually eliminate body roll and pitch as we know it. ESP 5.7, 8-piston Brembo calipers, quattro IV, a five-speed Tiptronic transmission with paddle shift and 9-spoke 8.5" x 18" RS wheels, front and rear sport seats (with the RS6 logo embossed in the headrest), Xenon lights and a Bose Symphony II sound system round out the package."

http://www.quattroclubusa.org/news/2002/misc/032602.shtml

max27t · March 2002

"According to Audi ... 8-piston Brembo calipers ... round out the package."

Mark, would this be enough to get you to go for an RS6 (even though no manual transmission)? Are your efforts to improve your current brakes now over? One or two more trials/evaluations and your lease will expire. Is it fair to say they are tolerable, but leave room for improvement?

I am supposed to have my 2002 2.7T delivered this coming week. Any reports of brake shudder etc. continuing with the 2002s?

timcar · March 2002

The '02 2.7T brakes are of a different design than those in 2000 & '01 cars. The 3.0 got upgraded brakes for '01, and the 2.7T shares them. I think prior 2.7T's and 4.2's used a 2-pot, one-sided caliper designated the HP2, and it is these calipers that are associated with the rotor warping problem. Haven't heard of any problems with '02 2.7T's. Please let us know if you notice any.

max27t · March 2002

timcar and Mark,

I want to thank both of you for keeping this site going. I enjoy reading AW when I have time, but sometimes it is like trying to get a sip of water from a fire hose. Maybe I need to reduce the number of hobby and business interest sites I visit daily/weekly. I know you (timcar) post on the AW site and I appreciate you cross-posting important information here. I might easily miss it depending when I skim the AW site. Both of you are very helpful and generous with your time. I read quite a few of the old posts here in preparation for the A6. Other than adding snow tires I don't expect add any mods, but maybe time (and miles) will change my mind. Thanks for helping this lurker.

markcinti3 · March 2002

The RS6 sounds like a fantastic car. And, the lack of a manual transmission, frankly, would bother me somewhat. Now that I know that the 6spd auto won't be in it this time around, I am somewhat disappointed. But, my dealer says my concerns about the 2001 tiptronic have been mitigated somewhat to a lot (depending on how much one liked or disliked it to begin with) with the 2002 new tip software (which has drive mode, sport mode and manu matic mode). I should say that I long for a manual transmission Audi (and frankly I was hoping for either a Sedan S6 or S4) -- I should also tell you that my 2001 A6 4.2 is a great car to drive (in spite of the auto transmission). I turned 50 last year and maybe it is the MLC or my wife's TT or my friend's A4's with manuals -- or some combination of the above -- but I really wanted to shift my next car.

The suspension and engine and and and of the RS6 are (on paper) seductive, I can only imagine that in real life they will be more so.

Will there be a "normal" S6 available? And, what about the S4 -- will it have a manual transmission offering?

Our current plans call for my wife to order (in May or June) a 2003 TT -- hopefully it will have the uprated power (245 - 265HP) available. Of course it will have a manual shift.

I have been in contact with my dealer about the 2003 allroad -- the problem is the dealer cannot get an answer to the engine transmission questions that I have been posing. The last 6spd manual transmission allroad that can be ordered with certainty is a 2002 and the order can be placed up until the end of April. My dealer claims that a 2003 would have a higher residual and probably a lower lease payment -- so why not wait? That is what I want to do -- wait and order a 2003 allroad.

Then we will, hopefully, order a 2004 S4 and the garage will be full of Audi's.

But, the RS6 nevertheless is tempting.

On the brake issue -- the brakes (after the recent replacement of the rears) are OK from a shudder standpoint, but that is not to say they don't shudder any more, it is just much less.

We have had a 2002 A6 quattro 3.0 overnight two or three times and I have driven it and I can assure you the brakes on this 2002 at least are very good -- I am envious of them, in fact.

But I am now at about 12 or 13 months left on the 30 month lease -- and I will probably have a new car perhaps by Nov, Dec this year. The brakes work fine -- that is not and has not ever been my issue. The problems that I and others had with the brakes on the 2000 and 2001 models have apparently been remedied with the 2002 models.

The RS6 is tempting. . . we'll see.

nosho · March 2002

My 2000 A6 2.7T manual just return from it's 40K service on Friday. I mentioned here in February that I experienced the "brake shudder" for the first time. Forgot to mention it to the service folks though. Thing is, they checked the brakes themselves and replaced pads and all four rotors for "technician noticed brake pulsation." All under warranty. It rained last night and no "rust grind" this morning, which is a good sign as far as I'm concerned.

I don't know if anyone else has been having similar behavior, but parking at work or at night in the rain would result in rusted rotors 8 hours later. The first application of the brakes would "grind" as the rust wears off. Then no noticeable sounds. Occasionally, a pad would rust to a rotor and make a breaking sound on first roll.

Maybe these new rotors and pads will fix this behavior. Too soon to tell, but if this mornings experience is any indication, there'll be no more rusting rotor behavior. I'll keep you updated on this.

markcincinnati · March 2002

I am no shill for Audi and I will not apologize for them. But I have received e-mails (and I am not at all unhappy that I received them) from members of this forum asking for my response to the Consumer Reports (and other) findings pertaining to Audi reliability.

My responses used to be to the effect, "I discount their findings, they are better at washing machines than cars, etc." Then I realized that at least some portion of their report is based on the feedback they receive from owners -- and I presume subscribers.

Then I took a short trip with one of my co workers in his Acura (the big one, I'm sorry I don't keep up with their names). His car has over 80,000 miles on it -- and he loves it for one reason -- it is reliable.

I get into the car and we pull out of the parking lot and clunk the transmission shifts so hard I get mini-whip lash. I comment, wow that's rough. He replies, it has always done that and the other ones that I have driven do the same thing.

The doors fit poorly. Everything that I would call fit and finish is pretty much OK. The performance is sluggish and I ask him to push it. I did not drive it. It seems like it does not drive easily. The brakes seem warped (and I am qualified to judge I think -- see my upteem posts for the past year on this subject). The stereo is OK.

Every little "drivability" factor about this car would "drive" me nuts -- "it's OK, it is reliable" he repeats. "After my Saab, I was so happy to have a car that COULD pass the dealership."

I have heard these words from Toyota owners. One of the people in a President's roundtable that i belong to has an Avalon. He talks about the reliability. I ride in the car and I feel completely isolated from the road (again, I did not drive the car). The interior is what I would call a "hose me out" interior, in that it is obviously meant to be easy to keep clean and hide dirt (it has that Hyatt Hotel lobby look with that carpet that can hide any stain known to man or animal. The dashboard looks as though a garden hose would be the perfect cleaning utensil.

Boy is this thing quiet at speed though -- but handling, my LazyBoy leather sofa handles only slighly worse. "But it is reliable" he reminds me for the umpteenth time.

If I keystroked three more examples I suspect it would not sway any opionions any further, but there are at least three more examples that I personally am aware of that all sound the same. My "Honda," or "Lexus," or "Infiniti" or whatever is reliable. When I press for performance, drivability or safety or even fun comments -- I generally get non sequitors.

I would not enjoy my friend's Acura -- I can think of no practically attainable pleasure I could receive from this car other than its ability to not need service. And, FOR ME, this is not what I am looking for -- at the expense of performance, safety and fun. Don't get me started on fit and finish. The Acura has nothing on Audi and the Lexus (fit and finish) is just as good. Toyota, Honda, Mazda, etc. whatever happened to that legendary Camry fit and finish. It is good, based on the examples in our company parking lot and from my President's roundtable member's examples -- but my A6 is to rip off a car magazine phrase "jewel like."

Perhaps, just perhaps SOME (certainly not all) of those who praise reliability as the holy grail do so at the expense of the things that SOME (certainly not all) of us who drive Audis (and BMWs and Mercedes and Volvos and Jaguars and Porsches and and and who knows what else) would not accept.

If someone gave me the Acura with that funky shifting transmission but told me "it never needs service" -- well, I think I would tell them to keep it.

I do want Audis to be more reliable than they are at this moment in time. Yet, having Audis (and a couple of VW's and one BMW) since 1978, I can tell you they are getting better with each model year. Perhaps the Acuras (or whatever the current reliability champ is) are also getting better, I presume they are too.

And, as I have noted, I have not owned one of these perfectly reliabile cars -- but I have driven as rentals, test drives, friends cars, etc., many of them. I have not been impressed enough to buy one.

Please do not take this as bashing of any car or make. Please do take this as a critique of the CR report. It is probably correct from a certain point of view. But those of us who enjoy and have a passion for driving these fine machines are also correct from a certain point of view.

mbnut1 · March 2002

I've experienced the same rotor rust phenomenon on my A4.

merc1 · March 2002

Very interesting post (#2485). Good reading.

M

mariobgoode · April 2002

Definitely great feedback, Mark. About post 2478, she should be able to get a better deal than that. That was the deal I got back in December, and they are more negotiable now as the end of production for the model year 2002 is approaching. For that money, I got lots of extras with my 2.7T 6M, such as the sports package, cold weather, luxury, convenience, xenon, premium, etc. They should be dealing at prices below $525 by this time. Look around for other dealers if they will not come down from the price you want. It may be worth the savings. Cheers! Mario

nyccarguy · April 2002

My parents took delivery of their A6 3.0 (Ming Blue/Black) on Saturday. Did you know (I'm sure you do) that the standard wheels on the 3.0 are now the 5 spoke 16" wheels that come standard on the 2.7T? The car is absolutely beautiful! The Ming Blue Paint is so deep. The fit and finish of the body panels are amazing. I love the interior. I haven't driven the car yet (I know, I know, but after we picked up the car, we had company over and we went to the auto show early yesterday AM). I'll let you know when I drive it!

gearman · April 2002

That was an interesting and thoughful post. Your observations regarding the sometimes bizarre views of Consumer Reports were quite mild as compared to some of theothers that I've read. They're pretty good with toaster tests and statistics, but providing similar quality information regarding cars seems to still be beyond their ken.

When asked to recommend cars to others, I've found that those seeking a 'reliable' transportation appliance are usually delighted with the newer products from Toyota and Honda. The jury still way out on how Renault's imposition of their engineering standards will affect the reliability of future Nissan products.

Point being, the successful creation of products designed to appeal to the broadest possible group with a targeted market segment seems to produce bland products that offend few but excite none. Toyota has excelled at creating and selling masses 'low common denominator' cars at many price points.

Toyota would never dare to market something like the TT or the A6, with their very strong 1939 Speer-inspired design themes. "Kudos to VW" for having the (retro)vision and the marketing courage to bring these well-executed products to market in spite of their politically-incorrect styling connotations. I'll take my TT with the baseball mitt seats, please.

VW, on the other hand, while suffering from a bad case of GM-like brand confusion between SEAT, Skoda, VW, etc,, has done a wonderful job of creating a distinct audi product personality (so far at least, depending upon where their upcoming 8/ 12 cylinder VW cars impinge upon the audi market).

And to your point of fit/finish, VW's audi interiors clearly set the standard for contemporary medium priced sedans. The current A8 interior is everybit as nicely down as an S-class interior from a couple of generations ago. The switch gear, roller-cam door positioners, and material quality are all evidence of careful thought and attention to detail by desigers who know cars, rather than toyota-like 'transportation appliances'.

And compared to the wacky 58 Buick inspired new 7 series interior (with metal trim thrown around everywhere and a column shifter that my grandparents would have loved), the A8 is truly well done.

Like you, I've found the interiors that Honda installs in their Acura line to be nicely assembled but plagued with inexpensive materials, flexing interior door panels, rattling sun roofs, and other signs of cost cutting, Not nice to see in a $45k RL.

Further evidence of VW's high standards for Audi interiors: Ford has been leaking comments that upcoming Lincoln interiors will meet Audi standards, and supposedly Bob Lutz has authorized a redo of the 2003 CTS and 2005 STS interiors to bring them up to Audi standards. Time will tell if those efforts will succeed; talk is cheap.

In the meantime, VW's reliability challenge has the corrosive effect of encouraging Audi buyers to rent rather than purchase, and to limit ownership tenors to that of the mechanical warranty. Perhaps its the preponderance of dry roads where I live that exacerbate the problem, but the quattro system seems to be extraordinarily expensive to maintain at higher (post warranty) mileage levels, unlike the awd systems on Subaru, Ford (X-type excepted), and GM products. At least based on anecdotal comments from friends and co-workers.

Amongst the various makes of cars I've recommended to others, the enthusiasm of the Audi drivers is consisently very high. They'll complain to me about the post warranty repair costs and depreciation rates ("I shoulda leased another one before 60k miles is a common refrain"), but in the same breath praise the road behavior on ski trips.

And having seen a RX300 do three slow motion barrel rolls last week onto the hood of an Accord while merely making a right turn at an intersection amongst a stream of other cars making the same manuver, I'm leary of the fake SUV tall station wagon type vehicles. The Allroad seems to be a very appropriate solution, particularly if one doesn't need even more ground clearance for dealing with the shopping mall speed bumps where most RX300s and ML320s seem to congregate.

I've spent a lot of seat time during the last couple of years in various audi products scooting around France, Germany, and Switzerland, and the high speed highway poise and all weather capability make audi's my favorite for European driving when the temperature is near or below freezing.

Keep up the good posts!

mike_e_smith · April 2002

Perhaps Audi can work on improving reliability which would satisfy the Consumer Reports crowd while still providing a quality driving experience. I assume all Audi afficionados would support this. There is no reason that refinement and reliability should be mutually exclusive. Granted, no car will ever be perfect, but a very good A6 can be improved. I hope that Audi, as a company, recognizes this. As nice as my dealer treats me, I find even routine maintenance to be an inconvenience. I think we should all continue to praise the good, acknowledge the bad, and hope for continued improvements.

mike_e_smith · April 2002

Do you have an opinion on Honda's S2000 with respect to marketing, innovation, and reliability? I find both the S2000 and the TT to be interesting, although neither meets my needs.

markcincinnati · April 2002

We, on this forum, seem to be often of a "mostly common" mind. As we have said, we do want our Audis to be more reliable. But frankly, I want everything I spend my hard earned money on to be more reliable. And, indeed, it is -- my father in law told me how 30,000 miles used to be the "top end" you could count on from cars -- today triple that with "routine" maint and repairs is very likely.

But one more emphasis on my earlier post pertaining to my friend's Acura -- he accepts a level of performance, materials, fit and finish and drivability that most Audi owners (and apparently many if not most on this forum) would find unacceptable. He trades reliability for just about everything I consider of paramount importance -- his number 1 is reliability, everything else is a distant second. So, if you ask him for his response on a CR poll or a JD Powers poll or any other consumer research survey -- he will answer virtually every question anchored to reliability.

Q: "What do you think of the performance of your Acura Mr. Smith?" A: "Performance is fine for me, but this thing sure is reliable." Q: "Does your automatic transmission shift smoothly?" A: "The transmission shifts fine, but it sure is reliable." Q: "How would you rate the fit and finish of your Acura?" A: "The finish is fine, but it almost never needs any maintenance of any kind!"

And so on.

So, the point about the reliability responses may be totally incorrect from "our" point of view.

We might answer the questions, about the Acura, in a very negative fashion, until they actually asked the one about reliability.

The difference is that some car owners would like to visit their dealers twice, once to pick up their new car and once to turn in their old car. And, don't get me wrong, service intervals of 50,000 miles or never would be nice -- but our technology for the prices we pay just isn't there yet.

The Audi products in my friend's opinion, I'd bet, would be "too much trouble" because they do indeed visit the dealership more often than his Acura -- even though for the Audi the first 50K miles worth are "free" -- well he just doesn't want the hassle.

This does not make him or us wrong. I would not tolerate the car he has for the reasons cited in my earlier post. He would probably not tolerate my Audi because it might remind him too much of his Saab story (couldn't resist).

So again, I do want my Audi to be MORE RELIABLE (and I do find Audi reliability to coin a phrase "adequate" or perhaps even better than adequate) -- but do not sacrifice the traits that make them enoyable, safe and satisfying. Like everyone else, I want both.

timcar · April 2002

I've been following Mark's discussion concerning A6's, Acura's and other Japanese luxury makes. And while I generally agree, I can't agree entirely because I drove a '92 Legend for 5 years and my experiences were different than those he described. I suspect Mark's experience was in an RL, which is actually a neutered Legend.

The RL has been around forever. It was built on a Legend Platform when Acura decided to kill the Legend name. They softened it up, and allegedly made it more luxurious. A worthy successor for the Legend was supposed to be introduced years ago, with much more power and much better handling. Rumor even suggested AWD. This was being reported in various publications. Evidently Honda made a decision to kill this car with the over-whelming success of Accord based Acura TL. Last I heard Honda was going to try to stretch the Accord platform even more to fill the RL product niche. Honda doesn't seem comfortable trying to compete with the larger cars from Toyota/Lexus and Nissan/Infiniti. Too bad.

The '92 Legend was a nice car. It's ergonomics and dynamic qualities were superbly thought out, and the fit and finish both inside and out were exceptional. My '01 2.7T's interior is the finest of any auto I've had, and about as good as any I've seen. The materials and fit of my '92 Legend were about as good, and the interior finish a close second. The exterior finish of the Legend was equal to my A6's. That is to say both are exceptional and flawless.

Driving the '92 Legend was a wonderful experience, particularly the first 30K or so. It was not as fast or capable as my '01 2.7T, but it WAS fun! Unfortunately, the roads in Japan are evidently very smooth. The Legend was engineered for these, and my roads aren't. Unfortunately, after about 30K the Legend's suspension had degraded significantly, and both ride and handling had been impaired. The car had stiff shocks, solid bearings and came with performance tires. One cold morning on a NY highway, I actually broke a shock going over a drop between pavement slabs. Strangely for a FWD car, it became a little tail-happy as it wore. While it had 200hp, it's performance varied greatly by load and temperature. It was pretty fast on a cold day, but on a hot one with four large people, it could have problems pulling a steep grade at slow speed. One thing few people rarely mention as a great advantage of Audi's and other German cars compared to their Japanese competitors is load capacity. The Audi's and other German makes perform much better when heavily loaded compared to Japanese luxury makes.

The Legend was very refined, comfortable, luxurious and fast. The 2.7T IS faster, as comfortable, but not really any more refined. The Legend had a ride on a smooth highway that was even better than the A6's. The Legend's steering was significantly better than my 2.7T's. It had much better feel and weighting. As capable as my 2.7T is, the Legend was more fluid and tossable. I have no doubts that my 2.7T can be driven faster than the Legend, but on the right twisty two-lane, the Legend could be even more fun. The dynamics were marvelous, and most often, but not always, it was a delight to drive.

Choosing between them, I'd pick the 2.7T hands down for its combination of virtues. There's no doubt it's faster and just generally more capable. It's also very comfortable and luxurious. Oh, and it's also more beautiful! But the Legend wasn't a dog.

As to reliability, the Legend DID have its share of problems, and maintenance wasn't cheap either. To this point, knock-on-wood, there hasn't been a substantial difference between the cars.

cncarlson · April 2002

As you all know, I am on my second (Audi '02 A6 3.0 CVT) to some surprise based on the issues I had with my A4, but to the point of Audi reliability and to the question of reliable vs. enjoyable, I will say that I never had a problem with the Audi that prevented me from driving it. And unlike many other carmakers, all problems were correctly diagnosed the first time and fixed quickly. Now there were a few Audi design/manufacturing issues (recall on the timing belt tensioner, faulty airbag sensor light connection, CV boots after 20K miles?) that could stand some improvement. But as I sit here today I am trying to think of reasons to go somewhere, anywhere in the new Audi! Not something the Acura guy is thinking.

I am waiting very impatiently for the Audi Quattro challenge scheduled for Memorial Day Weekend at Road Atlanta!! I check myaudi.com every day waiting for the event to be released so I can reserve my spot! Again, not something Acura, Lexus, Mercedes, Infiniti, etc drivers are thinking or even get to do.

tubey · April 2002

This last group of posts has been very interesting to me. Up until the last year I thought I had the most trouble-free '99 A6 on the planet. However, so far this past year I've:
-replaced the window guides in both front doors (they always failed in the rain, natch);
-replaced a VERY LOUD auxiliary cooling fan;
-replaced tie-rod end covers (a recall);
-replaced fuel gauge sending units (a recall) although mine worked fine;
-replaced a rear axle flange that was leaking; and now, today, she's in the shop because, over the past weekend, the brake pad warning light came on.

The car has 27,750 miles on it. Never have I had to replace brake pads this early on any car I've owned. In all fairness I will allow that too much of my driving is in a very congested city (Seattle); it's very hilly here, too; and, the car is indeed heavy. In fact, I suspect that the brakes are no bigger than those on an A4, which would mean that Audi maybe went a little cheap in that regard.

I'm in an interesting position, and I hope that I don't live to regret my intended decision. I plan to retire at the end of this year, and I plan to take the A6 into retirement with me when we downsize to one car. I plan to buy it from the leasing company when the lease is up this August, because we both love the vehicle's day-to-day comfort and other dynamics. And, being the world's most anal-retentive nitpicker, the fit and finish constantly please me. But, although I have already invested in a good extended warranty, the routine maintenance will be pretty dear, I'm told. Like $1,100 for the 60k mile, I was quoted today.

However, I don't want to make payments of any kind in retirement so a new vehicle in the near-term isn't in the cards. I agree with one of the posts above that cited VW's "rent" mentality. We may be somewhat victimized by that if we intend to keep the car longer than the warranty. Too many lessees and not enough buyers. No incentive on the manufacturer's part to make things a bit more bulletproof.

Hopefully, in retirement, moving to a smaller semi-rural community will be a new lease on life for the car. At least the next set of brake pads should last longer. Thankfully this current replacement is covered by the Audi Advantage.

And, finally, I've been a CR subscriber for years, and always respond honestly to the annual questionnaire. Last year I had nothing negative to say. This year, if I'm indeed honest, it may be a different story. However, I also agree with one of the posts above: nothing that's happened to my car has ever disabled it or left me stranded by the side of the road and utilizing Audi Guaranteed Mobility. And, of course, it's all been covered by the Audi Advantage.

blehrlich · April 2002

I recently sold my A6 4.2 for a Lexus LS430 (I'm getting old and neded something cushy). I had purchased an original Audi walnut trim piece which is standard on the 2002, but plastic on previous years. It fits around the cupholder, hazaerd switch, esp switch, etc., and takes NO tools to snap in (clips only). I've loved this forum and I'd GIVE this to anyone who would use it (it's currently being used as a paperweight). E- mail me and I'd be happy to give it a nice home.

markcincinnati · April 2002

I used the Acura with 80,000 miles on it (which is a real life example) NOT to pick on Acura, even though it may appear that I am. And, not having experience with the cars that so often are held out as examples of the meaning of reliability, I again offer no criticism of the car companies or the veracity of those who respond to CR's "owner surveys."

The differences as I see it are based perhaps more on the priorities one places on attributes of auto ownership -- my friend places so much weight on reliability that virtually all other attributes even if they were graded as F's would not reduce my friend's (and others from what I can glean) enthusiasm for his car.

To say, for example, "the transmission has always shifted this way since the day I bought the car -- it's OK, it's reliable" is something I could not say. The transmission was very clunky. I would not care for it -- and reliability can't mask that for me. It can for him.

If I owned his Acura I would answer the reliability question truthfully -- the thing is very reliable, but I would also say it is not a car that I would enjoy driving.

My "passion points" do include reliability and reliability becomes more important as each new Audi enters my garage -- because they do EVERYTHING else so well. I now am much more focused on reliability -- and you can bet edmunds forums have increased my attention to this attribute. But -- so far -- nothing has moved reliability above drivability -- but again that is just me.

And the CR ratings will be only a very small influence on my decision -- but again that is my bias.

In spite of the brake issues (which are basically the only issues I have had with my last two Audi's -- both 4.2's), I enjoy driving my A6 more than anything I have ever owned, and just as much as my friends 740i (2001) -- which is also a very nice driving car.

Next Audi does need to have better brakes, however. Each one must be better than the last, or "Lucy--you got some splainin' to do!"

felixoz · April 2002

New to this forum and about to move to TX from Australia! Looking at buying a 1999 A6 for interior size (I'm 6'5" tall), comfort and handling. Scrolling through everyones discussion, seems there are quite some reliability issues! This was surprising. Most of the reliability problem models seem to be flagged in Edmunds.com reviews (eg. some of the Jeep Cherokee models!) What is the consensus with '99 and '00 A6 models? It looks as if I'm better off leasing a newer model to capture some warranty. What do people think?

datsun2 · April 2002

I thought I would chime in. My Audi 99 A6Q has been in the shop more this month than on the road. I just had the steering column replaced, water pump and hoses replaced, camshaft and head gasket replaced, timing belt replaced, windshield wiper pump replaced and several vacuum hoses replaced. This goes on top of 3 sets of fuel tank senders, comptuer screens, switches for the windows, leather trim pieces, blah blah blah.

This car has had so many things done to it I've written Audi to have them buy it back. If not I have found a nice Infiniti G35 to buy.

My dealer told me to get rid of it because most of the earlier A6's have on going problems.

Tom

timcar · April 2002

And, if you don't believe me, ask a Texan! I've got an '01 2.7T, and it's been pretty good. (Knock-on-wood.) My considered opinion is that the A6's problems have been exaggerated. Much of the discussion has centered around Consumer Reports Publication. (Do you get that in Australia?) It's reliability has been about average for a high end German car. There was a wide spread problem with the fuel tank sensor (for the gas gauge) which precipitated a recall and skewed reliability data.

Having said that, I do acknowledge that early year cars tended to be more problematic as some specific A6 models. '98 was the first model year. '98's were among the more problematic. Don't know specifically about '99's. As production continued, succeeding model years became more reliable. The 2.7T was introduced in 2000, and that model year has proved problematic for that model. From '01 on they have been much better.

Some of the discussion you've been reading about concerns the brakes that were fitted to the 2.7T and 4.2 model up until the '02 model year. In '02 the 2.7T got different brakes. I don't know about the 4.2. These brakes use a large front cast iron rotor and HP2 twin-pot floating calipers. They appear to tend to warp. They also trap moisture and cause rust spots, which give the impression of warping until they wear down. I've got 17.5K on mine, and sometimes they feel warped, and sometime they don't. They're very powerful, and I'm still satisfied at this point.

Don't know when you're planning on getting to Texas, but many areas around the U.S. are incenting A6 leases right now. I've read of effective APR's around 2% with no money down and 15K miles a year. It makes getting an '02 very attractive. With a new car you get a 4/50 warranty, plus free maintenance for the same period. If you decide to buy used, it would probably pay to purchase an extended warranty. A good one will cover all but consumable items like pads, rotors, etc. and can be had to cover up to 7 years and 100K. A6's can be expensive to repair out of warranty.

Good luck! Hope you enjoy Texas.

Audi A6

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