Audi A6

markcincinnati · March 2004

. . .I cannot imagine any car from Japan that would offer me the sheer joy of driving that most of my Audis have. And, CR is not an automotive magazine, it is a statistical magazine.

And, that is not a slam against you or them -- rather it is a statement that a lot of us buy cars based on the right side of our brains and the left side of our brains.

In my experience, most folks claim to buy for left brained reasons, but really buy for right brained ones.

Me, I buy for hair-brained reasons -- I give no credence to CR's data in terms of the buying decision. Kinda reminds me of the old days when your friend's friend would set you up on a blind date with the phrase "she's got a great personality and makes her own clothes." Yea, maybe factually acurate, but hardly any indication that you will actually LIKE her.

Buy cars based on CR if you like -- and if you like, you should. But let the rest of us buy based on other, less quantifiable, reasons.

To each his own.

Nothing against Japanese cars, just no love for them.

oriente · March 2004

I have a 2002 TL-S and it has been excellent. However, the new Acura is still front wheel drive, and this to me, is a cardinal sin when it comes to awarding first place as suggested above. If you dont agree, step on it from a stand still with the wheels turned. Honda will need to reconsider this fwd issue, or eventually fall behind.

prattster · March 2004

You sound a little biased there, you can't accept that Germany's getting its butt kicked by someone who does it better. Same with me, no love for poor quality, overpriced German junk either. Japan will destroy them on quality any day of the week especially VW crap the worst.. ps. Respect is earned by having a superior product not one that's full of problems even years after release.

bobcatman · March 2004

"I cannot imagine any car from Japan that would offer me the sheer joy of driving that most of my Audis have."

Well, that's a purely subjective thing, as I can think of a number of good FWD/RWD [non-permissible content removed]. cars that drive damn good if not better than VW's and Audi's. If you have a biased mindset of course you'll never experience this. Honda builds the best FWD cars on the market today IMO, the hand built S2000 will smoke the bathtub Audi TT roadster anytime. Mazda's new products are hot not only in execution but in the handling and great design. Go drive an RX8 and see what "razor sharp" handling is about. The Acura TSX is just a better overall car than the A4 not counting price which of course is the German's big disadvantage all the time.

Audis really aren't performance standouts as Bimmers are not counting the way overpriced RS6. VW doesn't have the rep. of the Japanese in quality so by building a A8 near clone as in the Phateon they will experience a big costly bust. That would as dumb as Toyota building an LS 430 clone and price it close to the Lexus. Imagine the resale on this big heavy bugger. So in the big scheme the [non-permissible content removed]. brands are really closing in for the kill like they did to the domestics. The Germans better get their [non-permissible content removed] in gear and start building better cars!

markcincinnati · March 2004

. . .I am, as someone said in a movie, to the right of Gingus Kahn -- when someone said they were a conservative.

Likewise, if cut, I bleed little circles -- I claim no, zero, none, zip objectivity with respect to Audis. I never claimed to be looking at cars objectively.

Indeed, I said none of us do -- and I think I said or implied that Consumer's Report is not a basis for buying cars as most people, regardless of what they say, buy cars mostly from the right side of their brain, not the left side.

CR, it seems to me, caters to the left side of the brain -- which is fine for washers and dryers and blenders and socket wrenches.

Cars, especially $40 to $50,000+ cars, are highly subjective, personal statments about "the way we see ourselves, or the way we see our world."

Japanese cars may be kicking butts -- but not one of the people I know who are "car people" care for Japanese cars -- and most American cars for that matter.

This is not to say that these are not fine cars (from other places than Europe). Until recently Japanese car manufacturers seemed to want to innovate, but not invent -- this is, finally, changing and when this "me too-ism" stops substantially, I think the European mfgrs will have a hell of a time on their hands if their quality doesn't improve BIG TIME. American quality is going up, and companies -- Cadillac comes to mind -- are coming up with cars that will compete with the Euro guys without attempting to imitate them. Cadillac, for one, is apparently trying to do things "their way" -- they are not trying to be Audis, or BMW's or Volvos -- they are being Cadillacs. Good for them, I say.

Until recently, Lexus was making cars that were "derived" -- high quality, apparently, well respected and purchased, cetainly -- imaginative? Barely. Just a smidge.

I give you the quality of the Japanese and now apparently some Korean cars -- "they win."

I said that the German cars -- for ME -- gave driving pleasure and were -- for ME -- more passionate.

I simply believe that quoting Consumer's Reports is not only unconvincing, but it proves the opposite point -- insofar as "the driving pleasure" (and automotive passion) are concerned.

I welcome the Japanese and American march up the quality ladder -- for this will "improve" the European (especially German) breed. Or, they [the Europeans] will perish.

Bring on the competition. But don't -- yet -- try to convince me that any car suggested by CR will be recommended because it is a compelling car to DRIVE.

Now, let's see what they have to say about Kenmore. . . .

bobcatman · March 2004

I see your views on CR and I don't follow their stats much but when they publish their yearly report on all the makes the manufacturers surely are paying attention and when I see VW or Audi or Benz with bad marks year in and out there will be fallout on this for sure, CR calls them (repeat offenders), you may blow it off as left brain whatever but millions of car buyers especially luxury buyers will not tolerate shoddy quality especially when someone can do it better and cost less. The S2000 has amazing performance and is very reliable so I don't buy the CR appliance analogy one bit. Car&Drivers yearly 10 best list always has about 60% Japanese makes on the list and they surely aren't a stat magazine. Remember, German manuf. have good perceived quality which is their savior but actual quality is a much different story. I find a little disturbing that the Domestics are now more reliable than Euro. brands.

Plenty "car people" dig Japanese myself included, there's just a bunch of good, fun-to-drive stuff from Japan at all price points that people saying their not fun to drive or boring need a little edumaction. Well, I'm off to test drive the new Mazda 3 and see what all the buzz is about.

markcincinnati · March 2004

. . .choice of using CR as a reference. And, I subscribe to Car and Driver and Road and Track and Automobile and I am aware of the number of cars that are Japanese that make their respective lists.

I am not trying in any way to suggest that your use of CR to evaluate cars is not legitimate -- and just 'cause Honda is on some list in both CR and a car magazine doesn't make me dislike Audi.

And, if, as you say, Audi -- for one -- is reading CR and cringes when they see they are repeat offenders (I assume that they are by your comments) -- well I am very pleased.

The very fact that neither one of us is convinced sufficiently to change our position is "proof" that at least ONE of us (me, probably) is buying based on right-brained thinking over predominantly left brained thinking.

It is not too difficult to explain -- I often rent Japanese cars, including Lexus models, "just to see" what they are up to. And, truth be told, with rare exceptions I have never had a bad experience with them. They are fine appliances and do everything they are intended to do, but with the possible exception of some feature or option (one of the cars had a particularly interesting A/C system, for example) I have just never been able to be so impressed to "remark" to someone else about them.

My dentist, yesterday, ask me for some car advice, his 39 month old Avalon is out of lease and he wants a new car -- he was "glimming" my allroad and had a bunch of questions.

I urged him to try the Cadillac CTS, the BMW 3 and 5 series, the Phaeton, an E class and an Audi or two (he said his wife's Caddy's lease is up too) -- I suggested to wait a month or so for the STS AWD for her to test.

He essentially "apologized" for his 100% reliable Avalon -- he said it was rock solid, great transportation and "wholly unremarkable."

Take this anecdote anyway you care to -- it was, to me -- but remember I already know I am Audi biased -- completely an unispiring comment. Why would I test drive something just because it was indestructible (knowing that as much as i would prefer Audis to be thus, well I know they aren't currently so -- and their slightly less than stellar nature in this regard doesn't detract from the "driving pleasure?")

I originally started down this line of reasoning and discussion because I -- MY OPINION -- think this is an Audi A6 board and, although I know it is not just a sweetness and light forum, I would think that fans of the Japanese brands would spend more time on the Honda or Toyota forums than here (not that you aren't entitled or anything).

Again, for me, this is a right brained, biased, opinionated thing -- and I am in no way attempting to proselytize you.

I am not going, now, to log onto a Honda forum and tell them Audis kick their beloved Honda's butts in the "driving pleasure" department.

merc1 · March 2004

Nothing else about a car matters to you? Reliability is very important, but to totally ignore other aspects of a car will put you in a snore box from Lexus everytime. You don't care about anything else?

I think its also very intersting that people now think that because of one good year, that American cars are more reliable, and even if they truly are more reliable than European cars (and in some cases I don't doubt that they are), they still suck badly in other areas that people who don't clutch surveys care about. A Chevy is hardly the equal of a VW, once you get past reliability.

M

markcincinnati · March 2004

Since 1977, in my own personal (my wife's too) garage, I have had German cars from three manufacturers: Audi, BMW and VW.

I also, briefly, had a 1980 American Motors Eagle (I think of it as my first quattro since it was all wheel drive).

Prior to that, I had almost exclusively Chrysler products. I "got hooked" on the Germans after my first "real job" after graduate school. My boss, in 1976, had a BMW, a Porsche and an Audi Silver Fox. Most of the time I worked for his company the "company car" was a BMW which was called a Baravia (the grandparent of the 7 series?)

All of my Chrysler products (remember they were all from the '60s and '70s) were fun to drive, gas hogs and had repair bills that were larger than the car payments.

My first Audi was a 1978 Audi 5000, manual transmission, 5 cylinder, power everything version. It was, at the time, the best car I had ever owned. Since then, with the exception of the afforementioned American Eagle, all my cars have been German (ditto for my wife).

I am hardly a person who -- as I have disclosed -- should be consulted about or considered to be "up on" Japanese cars. However, I would argue that my VW/Audi experience qualifies me to comment beyond an anecdote about one or two cars. My wife and I are approaching owning our 30th Audi (between us).

I am not objective, that is -- but my subjectivity comes from a breadth and a depth of experience with one country's cars and a depth of experience with one manufacturer's cars (Audi) that I suspect makes me qualified to comment based on experience.

The point is, I am not quoting Car and Driver, Road and Track, Motor Trend or Consumer's reports. I can give you personal information pertaining to the cars I have actually owned.

To enter into a discussion about the reliability of a brand or a country of origin after having read an article or two is, I suspect, not invalid. But to discount my experience and claim that I know that Lexus is "kicking butts and taking names" and that I am blind to this is not valid.

Have my Audis (BMW and VW, too) been reliable -- yes. Have they been more reliable than a Toyota or Honda -- based on the strong opinions put forth here? Truthfully I don't know -- I just suspect that they must not be, 'cause some folks posting here insist that Audi, BMW, Mercedes and VW are "repeat offenders" (at least this is implied) in the poor reliability sweepstakes.

But I have had a couple dozen Audis and what they MAY lack in reliability has in no way been off-putting -- or at least not so much so as to discourage me from buying future cars (and this has been true since my first one in 1977).

Perhaps those who are posting on this A6 board proclaiming the superior reliability of their Japanese brands (and possibly American brands) have had comparable experiences to mine (in terms of "owning" 26 Hondas or Toyotas or whatever).

Owning one Honda and reading Consumer's Reports may be adequate experience to bash "my beloved" German cars -- beats me.

Perhaps the Japanese cars are bullet proof -- let's just assume they are. I do not have the experience to comment on this issue.

And, other than renting Mitsubishis, Lexus, Toyotas, Hondas and even a Hyundai or two, I have never owned any Japanese or Aisian car -- but, as noted earlier, the ones I have rented have been fine. Some, like the Mitsu and Lexus, quite nice, in fact. Yet, not one of these cars has ever motivated me (or my wife) to plunk down any money to buy (or lease) one of them.

My wife, particularly, finds that they "isolate her from the driving experience." She, however, is on her third Audi TT and recently test drove the new Audi S4 -- so she is off the chart in terms of "typical" target audience for practically any car other than a sporting or sports car. As a side note, when I met her, in college, she had a Pontiac GTO with a Hurst shifter. She chipped her first TT, too -- and now thinks even the Audi S4 isn't very nimble when compared to her 2003 TT with 18" wheels and a 6spd manual.

The point of all this, folks, is to suggest that when it comes to our tastes, well, "we jus' ain't right!" We do not conform to the fare most car manufacturers bring to market.

My secretary had a Nissan, a Toyota and another Nissan -- they were all super reliable, as far as I could tell. They were the Timex of cars -- as in "takes a lickin and keeps on tickin'" -- heck, she never even washed them, she neglected them and they ran into triple digits -- then she gave them to her college bound kids.

Consumer's Reports thinks the Japanese cars can kick the German cars butts (hardly what I assume they would write) in terms of reliability and frequency of repair and I presume a long list of statistics that "proves" they are superior.

Can I just say that I find these "facts" uncompelling without having to be called biased or blind or even worse? I freely admit the bias -- this is an Audi forum; and, if you want to bash Audis or A6's in particular, go ahead.

Hopefully if ye be a basher, you will also be an owner or, hopefully, a multiple owner. My strongest criticism of that silky-smooth Lexus ES 300 or GS 300 that I rented is that they were bland, boring, uninspiring and not something a "car guy" would tout. But, this is my perspective --no amount of praise from CR or C&D changes this. Interestingly, Car and Driver seems to laud its most passionate prose on German cars -- and amongst them the highest passion of all upon BMW's.

To each his own.

Reliability is important -- but, for example, if my current 2003 Audi allroad is the "standard" of reliability from this point forward (26,000 virtually trouble free miles, so far) I'll have no reason whatsoever to consider another brand.

What will make me "jump ship" is the driving experience -- not the frequency of repair ratings.

A reliable but unsatisfying car is unsatisfying. A slightly less reliable but exhilarating to drive car, is very satisfying indeed.

Thus far the Germans are kicking butt -- but that's just my opinion. Your's is probably different.

bretaa · March 2004

On a slight tangent (I know this isn't directly A6 related), I took a psychological stats course in college where they even specifically discussed the CR rating system. Their attitude was something like, "Well, it's nice we have consumer advocates, and it's good they're trying to troubleshoot this way, but their system has clear, enormous biases and really isn't remotely scientific and thus can't really be considered significant or reliable."

To bring the example back to Audi, my professors' conclusions might have been, "Audis were accused of unintended acceleration, so people *think* they are unreliable. Thus, they are harsher rating their cars than, say, Corolla owners who are told to expect their cars are bulletproof. Since Audis are "known" to have problems and Audi owners knowingly buy their cars aware of this risk, Audi owners therefore feel no problems "piling on," so to speak, and have no hesitation reporting mechanical ills. If the Corolla owner cognitively recognizes their car has problems, it means they were *wrong* in their purchase of a supposedly indestructible car, which they won't admit in a poll. Thus, the CR polls are self reinforcing.

My father is a great example. We had an Integra and Taurus SHO several years ago. My father was a big believer in Japanese cars, having had several quite terrible problems with the lamentable Chevy Vega and Plymouth Volare in the '70's. He was very wary of the Taurus. Despite the Integra having years of problems from pop-up headlights that wouldn't open, to transmission hiccups, to an exploding and smoking radio, he insisted the car was "bulletproof." The Taurus only had one small issue with a defective seatbelt warning light and a map light bulb go out, but it was "crap." I wonder how he would have filled out the CR forms.

After that college course, I just figured CR didn't matter. I'm surprised they still get the attention they do!

- Bret

bobcatman · March 2004

Man, almost fell asleep reading that. Joking aside, I know your passionate about Audi but I know that they have alot of work to do to get my business aside from purdy interiors. I've read your past posts on the VW boards and people bitching about their nearly new VW or Audis having problems like this morning on the Passat board. You've stated that you would never keep them past warranty which kinda validates my impression to begin with. You can harp on Honda, but Honda still builds a better product then most VW's and is defintely held in higher regard than VW. When Honda can give an 800lb gorilla like Toyota a headache you know they've got it.

Now, CR never states that Japan manuf. kickin the Germans butt only points out their comprehensive survey of 600,000 plus owners and results of testing. You can easily draw what you want from this, but any intelligent person can see the big delta of difference between the two.

The reason I'm tough on the Germans is one, they have a mature auto industry and should know how to build it right the first time and not have problems years later reoccuring with the same model. Secondly, they cost more that comparable Japan brands and domestics and have these issues(gotta love that socialism).
Thirdly, either their super stubborn or living in serious denial like when Lexus was released of problems sweeping low-end VW to high-end Benzes and not jumping on it right away like the Japanese do.
That their being challenged from all angles by the Japanese is not a surprise to anyone in the know.

I'm also an equal opportunity basher, as in Lexus could use alot more passion in their products too. The LS430 is one hellva car but I feel it's so well made that they've engineered any passion out of it, but it has a ton of followers. This is the last of me since I sense strong topic drift from the title..

markcincinnati · March 2004

. . .thus far my mode of car ownership has been and will TFN continue to be -- never to keep any car from any manufacturer beyond the warranty.

In part, that is becuase a new car every other model year (sometimes sooner sometimes later) keeps me up with the technology.

The only reason both my wife and I traded in our 2000 Audis on 2001 Audis (that were virtually identical) was to get ESP. This feature became compelling after our third visit to the Audi driving school in Seefeld, Austria and our 5th plant tour in Ingolstadt, Germany -- we made similar moves trading in late 1980's model Audis for slightly newer ones in order to get cars with ABS.

We "justified" such trades on safety -- perhaps "rationalized" is a better word.

I think CARS -- all CARS -- are "breathtakingly expensive" to have fixed (or maintained, for that matter) out of the warranty period. But I have direct first hand experience with German cars -- my 1988 BMW 325ix had $100 oil changes, no matter what I did my Bimmer was a money pit.

But, I guess I would consider it reliable, since nothing broke on it -- but it sure needed lots of expensive "routine" maintenance.

I tend to agree with the prior posting about the CR reporting methodology, etc.

Again, I say, the Germans kick butt -- in the driving department.

aggie76 · March 2004

Markcincinnati - would you share whether you purchase or lease since you never keep past warranty?

markcincinnati · March 2004

Of the cars since 1977 we have had, we leased the majority of them -- longest term, as I recall, 36 months, shortest 12 months (I leased a 1999 A6 for 12 months when I was coming upon 50,000 miles on my 1997 A8 while I was waiting for my 2000 A6 4.2 to arrive).

My last Audi I leased for 30 months, the current one 36 months since I was "preplanning" the next model acquisition and wasn't enitrely sure if it would be in calendar 2004 or 2005. My wife's last TT was also a 30 month lease and her first one was a 24 month lease since the dealer told us that we could lease a 1.8T 180HP TT quattro (MY 2000) and trade into a 2002 1.8T 225HP TT quattro. When the 2001 TT had 225HP, the modified suspension, spoiler and ESP all standard, he "forgave" the lease and we moved from the '00 TT to the '01 TT painlessly.

We never put money down, no sec dep and the last few times, not even the first month's payment (various Audi Loyalty Programs always seem to kick in just when you need them).

My first real business boss out of grad school, a CPA, told me "buy what appreciates, rent or lease what depreciates." At the time, I was renting an apartment and making car payments. I quickly reversed this and now lease cars and own real estate. Zero percent financing, if it is still around and available on my next new Audi (A6 or S4) MAY make me reconsider this, but I kinda doubt it -- I just don't keep em long enough for this to make sense.

Cars, to me, have short shelf lives technologically speaking. I "need" a technology refresh about every 30 months or so (sometimes sooner rarely longer).

Hope that helps. . . .

P.S. even the "owned outright" 1987 5000 CS turbo quattro, I only kept 'til end of warranty (~ 49,999 miles).

P.P.S. I am into month 19 of a 36 month lease, currently. This translates into a new car order probably by next March or April depending on the cut off date for the 2006's -- since my dealer has shared with me that there will be a 2005.5 A4 series and that the 2006's will begin production (as far as we're concerned in the US) in month 6 -- which may translate to an order date for an '06 as late as May 2005 or as early as March 2005.

With rare exceptions -- the used '87 and the 12 month lease on the 1999, my wife and I always order our cars about 5 months ahead of the time we plan to take delivery. I can't remember the last car we "bought off the lot" -- and, frankly, wish they would quit this practice altogether since it seems to force people to buy what is on the lot rather than EXACTLY what they want.

aggie76 · March 2004

Thanks, that does help a lot. I have debated this even though I tend to turn cars at the 3 year point - wanting new technology and getting antsy about new cars. Have mostly bought due to something about ownership vs "renting" from my parents. Have one vehicle now we bought - 7 yrs on it and the other is coming up on end of 3 yr balloon lease in August if that makes sense. Most likely will lease two new ones before the end of summer.

Kirstie_H · March 2004

A reporter is hoping to interview a recent car-buyer who participated in an overnight or 24-hour test drive and then purchased the vehicle. Please respond to 248-890-8582, farataye@yahoo.com or jfallon@edmunds.com by 5pm Eastern Wednesday, March 24, 2004. Thanks, Jeannine Fallon PR Director Edmunds.com

dpedersen1 · March 2004

I am on my first Audi - A6 - 15K miles - love it, other than the one oil change, it is perfect!. Have had in order: BMW 528 (fussy but FUN), Volvo (zzzzz), Acura Legend (1st yr - very reliable, fun, all around nice car), Infinity I30t (Maxima in disguise - reliable and fun) and now my A6. Wife has a newer Acura as well (it is clunky and heavy I think). When I looked at my A6 I weighed lots of noise about reliability against a very very fun driving experience in the A6 vs. reliability and OK fun in the Acura and Infinity and Lexus (though the G35 is pretty cool). My rationale for the A6 was ... (women close your ears) ... sort of like a really hot 'high-maintenance lady' vs a very reliable solid citizen woman. I figured keep the A6 until Audi won't fix it anymore for free then toss it. I am very satisfied - note .. all those other cars I had all had their share of 'issues' to work out, lets just say I met the dealer mechanics a few times in each case.

merc1 · March 2004

Good post. I tried to suggest that different owners and people expect different things from brand xyz, but that notion isn't easily explained or accepted.

M

bretaa · March 2004

You're quite correct, in part because that notion is so hard to objectively prove. I read a book several years ago on the design of the late 90's Taurus. They mentioned that Ford's internal teardown teams were shocked at the number of defects and increased cost they saw built into the new Camry and Accord of the time. The defects were so much more numerous than what CR and J.D. Power were reporting that they bought additional models to do more teardowns and found the same thing. The only thing they could conclude was that people were reporting less than reality due to their perception of the brand. Their own internal studies and teardowns of their own models showed people were reporting more than what was there. Since there is no "consumer group" that does teardowns, we'll never really know...

There was a Detroit News article recently (does anyone remember when?) that had a study comparing *actual* vehicle quality in more objective studies to more subjective studies of what people *thought* of brands. The results were interesting. I think the biggest gap was VW, and Audi wasn't far behind. Mercedes also had a large gap.

This is the first year in a long time I have seen people start to question VW and Audi purchases since they're saying, "I have friend X or relative Y who have had their VW or Audi in the shop every week so I'm thinking of looking elsewhere." Same with Mercedes. BMW seems to be stable right now at "average."

Unfortunately, the only one benefitting from this is the Japanese, I think. Detroit still has years of improved quality to demonstrate before they can overcome the effect of their real quality demons of the 60's to 80's.

- Bret

pat · April 2004

Can anybody help this person in this new discussion: car_lover1 "Audi 100" Apr 5, 2004 1:58pm?

andys120 · April 2004

If you live in the Boston area where they charge big bucks to repair cars ($85/hr), and Audi parts aren't cheap. It's not the car for someone who doesn't know cars.

BTW-it only snows four months of the year in Beantown.

pat · April 2004

Andy, why don't you click on my link and respond to the person directly.

andys120 · April 2004

Automotive News 4/5/5/04--

Audi defend's A6's massive grille

Visitors to Edmunds.com describe the (grille)design as overdone, excessive and reminiscent of the Ford Edsels of the 1950s. "Does Bangle have a brother?" asks one visitor--a reference to BMW design chief Chris Bangle.

The article quotes Audi's surveys with 70% in favor of the new look and 30% against.

boomsama · April 2004

since it was released...has anyone driven it yet?

markcincinnati · April 2004

. . .Japanese cars "on the rise" European cars "on the decline" American cars also "on the rise."

Two days ago in the Money section of USA Today (the highest authority don't you know?) -- the article claimed that [sic] the pecking order for cars "used to be" European, Japanese and American (and everybody else).

Now, with the improvements in both the American and the Japanese cars and the declines [in quality] of European cars, the Americans have risen to number 2 while the Europeans have simultaneously fallen to number 2 (yes they are essentially tied).

Couple this, currently, with a strong Euro and the apparent "constant railing" against the European (mostly German) car companies and its no wonder American cars have gained ground.

With a stronger dollar (or weaker Euro), I can only wonder if this would continue -- for I suspect that some of the issues are perhaps not as much quality related as they are price, content and quality related.

As noted above, there is much (anecdotal) evidence that suggests Japanese car owners -- by sheer "force of will," perhaps -- rate their cars' quality higher than might otherwise be factually substantiated and are more prone to be more critical of European cars, placing American car owner's expectations somewhere in between.

As was said above, wouldn't it be interesting if there could be an independent "tear down" of cars to determine if the quality was as is so often reported?

On the other hand, perception is reality -- and I can certainly attest that those who have Japanese cars generally brag about the fact that their cars are bullet proof and seem to be immune from maintenance intervals.

I usually just avert my eyes when an Acura or Toyota or Honda pulls in, just in case.

Now, funny thing, one guy who I work with, just turned his 39 month old Chrysler 300M in as the lease concluded. He claimed total maintenance costs (only excluding insurance, gas, washes and plates) of "under $300" -- he had less than 50,000 miles on the car, but not much -- and rotated all 5 OE tires -- so no, he didn't even replace the tires and they passed at lease turn-in time.

Hmmm. Even with the Audi advantage, I seem to be unable to boast such low maintenance (including tires) costs on any of my (almost) 30 Audis (over the years). Heck, I'm at 28K miles and already on my second set of tires. . .

Now, I know the other side of the story, for I am a proponent of "no boring cars" -- and as fine as the 300M was to my friend, it wasn't what even he would call "high performance." Indeed, to underscore the point, he is hoping that his next car witll be a new BMW 5 series.

If the Americans and the Japanese "crack the Da Vinci code" so to speak and build in more and more performance into their new offerings (and they apparently are -- see the New Acura, Chrysler 300C AWD and Cadillac STS AWD to name just 3) the Europeans may find themselves slipping to 3rd place.

Shocking to read that 40% of VW owners trade for Japanese cars, as do Mercedes owners (at 22%).

Food for thought.

Shoes for industry.

Underwear for the deaf.

Idle hands are the devil's phonebooth.

Beam me up.

rayainsw · April 2004

Traded my '02 VW Passat W8 for a Lincoln.
- Ray
Just one point(-ey head?) on the curve . . .

Kirstie_H · April 2004

...and I traded my 2000 Jetta for a Chrysler - both of which have been reliable, for the record.

Mark, your mini-slogans crack me up.

Kirstie_H · April 2004

First Drive: 2005 Audi A6
http://www.edmunds.com/future/2005/audi/a6/100278639/preview.html

boomsama · April 2004

wow, sounds good

mariobgoode · April 2004

as in person. I went to the NYC Car Show and saw it for myself. It doesn't look half as bad, and with all other makers (both local and foreign) coming up with similar designs, you'll get used to is after a short while.

Just found out the -04 A6 doesn't come in a stick, and there are no plans for a manual in the new A6 for next year, either. If the S6 costs too much, I'll be going over to BMW, if they have an all-wheel drive in the 5 or 6 series. I simply prefer to row my own. Enjoy. Mario

bjbird2 · April 2004

Actually, I've read some articles that place the Japanese cars in first place for quality, the American, and Korean!! cars in a tie for second, and European cars third. I'm starting to believe it with my 2002 Passat having been in the shop, first for the notorious coils, and then a water pump, temperature sensor, and replacement of all the front tie rods. I love the car, but it kind of takes all of the fun out of driving when the car won't run. My old Infiniti was passed down to my son, and he's still driving it with 130K problem free miles, just scheduled maintainance, and I can say that it was also a kick to drive.

merc1 · April 2004

Just not pretty anymore. I have to see this car in person to confirm this. Has anyone seen what the U.S. version will look like when our license plates have to be fitted inside that grillework?

M

andys120 · April 2004

our license plates are not very compatible with that frontal styling, are they?

carnaught · April 2004

off the grill at or near the beltline, it would improve the looks immensely, imho.

mbnut1 · April 2004

Ok guys lets make some bucks. Aftermarket bumpers and grills.

ivan_99 · April 2004

Absolutely gorgeous

NOTHING even comes remotely close to it.

Yes...need EU plates

merc1 · April 2004

You know grilles are a tricky thing. If done right they say all the right things about a car, if done wrong they are like sores. I guess I won't get to see this car in person until this fall. The autoshow season around here ended in Feb.

M

loslobos71 · April 2004

will the 2005 be a lot slower than the 2004 2.7t? will it even BE slower? what will the accelerating (0-60) times be? thanks

markcincinnati · April 2004

. . .on the current state of the A6 level Audi's.

Just for the record the current Audi lineup:

A6 3.0 quattro 0 - 60 = 7.9 seconds (Tipronic)
A6 2.7Tquattro 0 - 60 = 6.0 seconds (6spd manual)
A6 2.7Tquattro 0 - 60 = 6.6 seconds (Tiptronic)
A6 4.2 quattro 0 - 60 = 6.7 seconds (Tiptronic)

A6 2.7Tquattro 0 - 60 = 6.4 seconds (Tiptronic)
(Sline = slightly boosted 2.7T, increasing both Torque and HP from 250 to 265 and 258 to 280 respectively)

Now, there are SOME difficulties in moving forward. The reasons for these difficulties are that much of what is published is WORLD information, not US/North America information.

We'll muddle through using Audi press-kit information where possible.

Two NA A6's for 2005 (initially):

A6 3.2 and A6 4.2(6spd Tiptronic/quattro ONLY):

- 4.2 V8 - 246 kW (335 bhp), 420 Newton-metres
- 3.2 V6 FSI - 188 kW (255bhp), 330 Newton-metres

"The new A6 4.2 [6 speed Tiptronic]quattro accelerates to 100 km/h (62mph)in a mere 6.1 seconds."

But, no such apples to apples information is published for the A6 3.2 FSI equipped version. Instead we get:

"The A6 3.2 FSI with six-speed manual gearbox and front-wheel drive accelerates to 100 km/h in 6.9 seconds."

By extapolation, but this is subject to many different factors, such as, final drive ratio, added weight, gearing differences between the 6spd manual and the 6spd Tiptronic, the A6 quattro 6spd Tiptronic should come in at .6 seconds slower (using the current A6 where there is both a manual and an automatic reference point with the same HP and torque for comparison).

The new A6 3.2 quattro will be rated @ 7.5 seconds -- unless Audi lowers the final drive ratio (meaning making the final drive higher numerically). Audi, historically, has done just the opposite -- that is they have made the final drive ratio of the manual transmission equipped cars higher (lower numerically meaning slower acceleration but higher fuel milage). Perhaps, this would translate -- considering lower torque at higher RPM for the incoming A6 than the outgoing 2.7T S-line -- into at least a full second drop in quickness for the incoming A6 over the outgoing comparable (2.7T) model.

And, the price of the new A6, will, almost undboutedly be higher than the outgoing A6 2.7T S-line.

Of course, finally, the incoming 4.2 model will be .6 seconds quicker than the outgoing model and, for the first time will translate into a car from Audi that actually rewards the owner who paid more for the bigger engine with higher performance, where it counts -- in North America -- which is, of course, the off the line performance.

While many attributes of the current Audi A6 4.2 recommend themselves over the current Audi A6 2.7T S-line, accerleration has been a casualty of Audi's choice of transmissions, engine designs insofar as torque curve is concerned and gear ratios.

Imagine if, BMW, for one, would bring out a 530 and a 545 and imagine the 530 being quicker -- wouldn't there be some pretty major howling going on?

What was Audi thinking?

Of course, having said that, they have handilly corrected this with the new A6 4.2 variant -- which is both quicker than the outgoing version and quicker than the "lesser" A6 3.2. Yet, one has to again ask, what Audi is thinking by apparently sending us the new for 2005 A6 3.2 with less impressive performance than the 2004 A6 2.7T S-line with which it will undoubtedly be compared.

It is possible, however, that this apparently unhappy state of affairs will be corrected by the simple expediant of lowering the final drive ratio of the A6 3.2 6spd Tiptronic to produce at least 0 - 60 times of 6.6 seconds, or, if they are wise, 0 -60 times of 6.4 seconds (which would equal the outgoing model in S-line clothing).

Hope this helps.

It still makes me echo the sentiments of my Audi salesperson who says, they boost the power of the A6 2.7T, boost the content via the S-line clothing and, then -- what? -- they discontinue the car in favor of a lower performing, higher cost model.

Go figure.

lexusguy · April 2004

Bjbird, this is probably the wrong forum for Japanese chest beating, but you're correct on that one. According to the latest figures, Japanese cars have 10% major mechanical issues, and USA cars have beaten the Europeans for the first time with 18%, versus their 20%. And it seems like VW is the one dragging theirs down.

Mark, perhaps it is not the intention of the new A6 3.2 to be a direct replacement for the 2.7T, but rather to be a kind of bridge between the outgoing 3.0 and 2.7T offerings. The 3.0 is certainly better than the turtle slow 2.8 it replaced, but nobody is going to call it a fast car. So with the outgoing car, Audi had an engine that was too slow to be competitive, and an engine that made the 4.2L totally unnecessary. Not a very smart way to do things. I think is perfectly logical for Audi to want A6 2.7T drivers to pay more and move up to the 4.2L engine, while having a single 6 offering that offers enough power to compete with the 530 and E320.

rayainsw · April 2004

"lowering the final drive ratio "

Based largely on North American press pre-reviews, VW / Audi did exactly that for the Passat W8.
- Ray
Ex- W8 owner . . .

markcincinnati · April 2004

Disclosure: I am an Audi fan!

I know of no Audi in recent memory that would, at the displacement level, keep up with a BMW.

However, having said this, the Audi A6 2.7T when compared to the 530i, was a different story. And, truth be told, the Audi A6 4.2 when configured against a BMW 530i could be VERY CLOSE to the same price and obviously of much higher HP and torque. BMW, on the other hand, has continued to offer the manual transmission and, even though I can "prove" that a 530i OUGHT to be compared to the A6 4.2 because of the price similarities -- the truth of the matter is that the Comparos in the Car Magazines of the realm, generally tend to compare cars that seem to be pitted, by the manufacturers, against each other.

Hence, the new A6 3.2 will be, ultimately, in a head to head test with a BMW 530i -- the A6 will, based only on thus far published specs, be a "relative" slug. This A6, will be priced about at the point of the outgoing A6 2.7T S-Line -- which, as we all know, blew away the A6 4.2 in accelerative force to 100kph at least.

Now, having said all of this -- I know that the world does not exclusively revolve around 0 - X accelerative times. But the current theme (for the YEAR OF THE AUTOMOBILE: 2005) seems to be the following:

1. RWD or AWD -- the price of entry into the Premium/Sporty class
2. "Availability" of a V8 (note the bashing Acura is already receiving despite the fact that the new for '05 RL will come with AWD and a 300HP V6; note too the Volvo Type R, also 300HP, can't quite get the full respect of the motoring press since the in-line 5 lacks some of the refinement of the German V8's at or near red line [sic].)
3. Sub-7.0 second time to 100kph (or for US consumption 60mph)
4. Minimum of 5spd "manu-matic" and/or availability of minimum 6spd manual or availability of "direct shift, clutchless manual -- e.g., DSG or SMG transmission.
5. Certain expectations pertaining to electronics, suspension, on-board computing power, etc. See Acuras SH-AWD, Audis air-suspension, Cadillacs STS AWD w/Magnaride, etc etc etc
6. Certain expectations pertaiing to "features du jour" such as "intellegent" key fobs, iDrive, MMI, voice activation, DVD sat nav, telematics, etc etc etc
7. Advances that provide some (brand) exclusivity: FSI (Audi engine), 7speed transmission (BMW), SH-AWD (Acura), semi or full-active suspension (Cadillac, Volvo).
8. Some Big Hairy Audacious Feature: hemi engine in new Chrysler 300C AWD, e.g.
9. Buzz
10. Fawning Automotive Journalist(s)

lexusguy · April 2004

Im gonna have to disagree with you on that mark, I think the old 5 was much more simple and enjoyable to drive with its "archaic" button layout. I hate iDrive, and so does most of the motoring press, so it seems.

markcincinnati · April 2004

Where in my message did I opine that iDrive and MMI are good? My point was to list what I perceive as "trends" perhaps even "must haves" to play in the game from 2005 forward.

You are right about 1 thing, much of the automotive press dislikes iDrive and some of the press dislikes the Audi A8L's MMI (and the Phaeton's too, for that matter).

I have no experience with such interfaces.

I am, however, old enough to remember a tool that came to Personal Computers several years ago it was called Windows -- uh, well, lots of folks (me included) thought "what's the big deal?" it just shields the user from DOS commands (Windows at 2.0 and 3.0 was, after all, largely an analog and many times the icon that was clicked on screen merely executed a ".bat" file or a ".exe" program). Of course real PC users were proud of their ever more complex "autoexec.bat" files and their abilities to make the PC do marvelous things with strings of commands that looked somewhat like someone spilled a can of alphabet soup.

What is happening today (with car command interfaces, that is), I submit -- and this at this point in time does not necessarily disagree with you with respect to your displeasure with the current versions of such products -- is analogous to the evolution of Windows. . .2.0, 3.0, 3.1, 3.11 heading toward Windows NT, 2000, XP Pro and whatever Mr. Gates & Co. come up with next.

I say, we'll all just have to suck it up for what is ultimately in the pipeline is some version of "autodrive" as was fantastically presented in a not too old (or young) movie called Demolition Man. No, I don't literally mean the cars will be 100% hands free for some time -- but we keep moving in a direction that somewhat reminds me of autopilot.

Whatcha gonna do when even the "Yugo's" of the world come standard with such "improvements?"

. . .uh, after you scream, then what?

markcincinnati · April 2004

. . .this just in. Someone actually likes the new Audi A6.

Why I put my email address in the public domain, I'll never know -- it seemed like a good idea at the time, I told myself. (For, the discussion groups and town halls and forums in which I participate have spawned a "decent" amount of off-line emails.) Some of these are barbs, many are questions (as if I had some inside track into the inner workings of the Audi body politic) but most are simply "conversations" apparently from folks who do not believe their prose is appropriate or relevant or something for one of these more public Bulletin Boards. Generally, I would characterize these conversations as coming from mostly loyal Audi (and some VW) owners or soon to be owners (assuming I answer some question pertaining to their upcoming purchase favorably -- again, as if I had some inside information -- which I assure you, I do not).

Recently the communications both on and off-line have been somewhat to very disappointed in the apparent path that Audi seems to be embarking upon. I have felt somewhat like the Founder and President of the Audi Defense League of late -- even though I too have noticed some contradictions in Audi's Marketing Message.

Moreover, the trickle of cars that appear to be "waiting in the wings" to ambush Audi has become a stream and appears set to become a flood, probably as soon as fourth quarter -- this year.

You see, as I noted earlier in one of my posts, somehow the Car Companies of the world have come to the conclusion that FWD is becoming or already has become passe. Now, apparently, only RWD (but at the top of the "heap" AWD) will do.

Forget what we told you for years about the efficacy and efficiency of FWD, we've seen the light. Car companies are practically falling all over themselves to eschew FWD.

I can hear Dana Carvey now, imitating Bush 1, ". . .FWD bad. . .AWD (or RWD) good." Thousand points of light, indeed.

OK, so the critical, largely, emails about the new Audi A6 have kept the Defense League keyboards clicking away for the past 6 weeks or so. The screaming voice in the wilderness (me, or so I thought) even tried to enlist the help of my local long-time Audi dealer salesman, Ralph. He was sympathetic and dutifully forwarded my harangues to his Audi of America "insider." I, personally, had no such communication with/from AoA, proper, however.

Yesterday, Car & Driver, "to the rescue" -- the June 2004 issue had both a mostly very complimentary article about the 2005 A6 itself (page 83) but more complimentary -- IMHO -- was Csaba Csere's "The Steering Column" -- title, Will gasoline direct injection finally make it?

Audi was placed in the spotlight and somewhat under a microscope -- what the "objective" reader will come away with (from both of these articles) is that Audi is a LEADER.

Now, I am not proclaiming or interpreting the sum and substance of this article to argue that Audi is the first in this regard; however, it is clear that this incarnation of the DI (or FSI as Audi calls it) is significant because it is coming out in a much more "accessible" autombile -- not that the Isuzu Axiom is inaccessible, but, perhaps that you'll grant the BMW 760Li is hardly "everyman's" (or woman's) ride.

Better power, better economy, better better better seems to be the message here -- and Audi is getting, for a change, some positive press.

This "expert" opinion and review will certainly not change "lexusguy's" opinion, or at least I assume it will not. Neither will those who, for whatever reason, believe that Audi's quality is poor be among the converted.

However, it is my belief that Audi, once again, has something upon which it can "hang its hat" with pride and something that once again can differentiate it in a marketplace rapidly emulating an area where Audi has shown "leadership" for years: AWD.

Prediciton: Next year, at this time, virtually all of the Premium cars (that have not yet announced) with which Audi competes will have AWD available; however, Audi, for a least some small grace period will be demonstrating Vorsprung durch Technik.

That's my opinion and I'm stickin' to it!

shipo · April 2004

Good, bad or indifferent, we are all entitled to our own opinions. FWIW, I have always enjoyed your posts, and for the most part, you and I have similar opinions on many things.

Regarding the new A6, I like it, rather a lot in fact. That said, I'm still waiting to hear if Audi is going to bless those of us in the NA market with three pedals under the dash or not. So without further ado, I'll lightly plagiarize your plagiarization from above: 2-Pedals bad...3-Pedals good. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

markcincinnati · April 2004

Only 2 pedal versions, for 2005, so says both C&D and Audi's global web site.

Waaaaaahhhhh!!!!!

lexusguy · April 2004

"This "expert" opinion and review will certainly not change "lexusguy's" opinion, or at least I assume it will not. Neither will those who, for whatever reason, believe that Audi's quality is poor be among the converted."

No, it wont. I dont remember claiming that the A6 is a boring car that is no fun to drive. I also like C&D, I think its probably the most respectable of the major 4 NA automags. However, how often does C&D comment on things like JD Power IQ? Or long term reliability? Or CR reliability indexes? Answer: never. They dont care. They dont recommend cars based on reliability, or Toyota and Honda products would sweep every comparo.

I believe Audi's quality is poor because Audi's quality IS poor. Did you miss the three recall notices to fix hundreds of thousands of cars with ignition coil problems? Same problem, three recalls. How many other cars have had to be recalled three times to fix the SAME item? The Audi A6 is listed as a "risk" in CR's list of worst used cars, it ranks at the bottom of JD Power, and it comes in at #6 on the list of most PA\NJ lemon law cases. There wasnt one Lexus or Acura on that list anywhere. Everyone I know who has bought an Audi in the last few years has had major headaches, and they've all told me "never again". I'm glad you love Audi, but I ask you, how many Audi's do you see with over 150K miles? How about 200K?

bjbird2 · April 2004

Ditto for their sister brand, VW.

lexusguy · April 2004

Yes, congradulations to VW for ranking 2nd from the bottom on the '04 JDPower IQS. Stay tuned for their "hey, but we beat hummer! Eh?" Sales spectacular.

Audi A6

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