Audi A6

alevy · December 2004

For what it's worth, I just got the new 3.2 Audi and came off of the 530.

So far I am really disappointed with the 3.2.

1. The acceleration from a standstill has a fairly significant lag.

2. The MMI computer is below the shift knob, meaning to use the CD or navigation you have to take your eyes off the road. Not enough things can be done from the steering wheel. Even the stereo memory/favorite stations guide, which is a good idea as it is easy to toggle from am and fm channels, is not available to be seen from the dashboard. The MMI should have been placed where the temperature controls are, as you change the temperature less frequently than the other items in the MMI. As an aside, the navigation is not that easy to use or manipulate.

3. The wood trim is nice (the dark wood, not the birch) but it is not placed in the center console for some reason. Unfortunately the lighter shades of seat colors are limited for the dark wood.

4. Audi has very few bluetooth cradles available if you have a bluetooth phone.

It does drive well, is quiet and seems comparable in space to the 530 (the trunk is definitely less wide).

The seats are a bit more comfortable in the Audi, in my opinion, but still not great.

I would have gone with the BMW if they had the all wheel drive available. I did not test drive the new Acura RL and regret it (mostly because I thought the lease pricing was too high).

gold233790 · December 2004

In March, it will be very interesting. The infiniti M is coming out around that time as well, and will be offering AWD in the smaller engine. Comparably priced with the A6 and RL, probably a few grand below the new 530x. And, from what I've seen and heard, it is a beautiful vehicle.

So.....now there are MANY choices for a 50kish premium luxury sedan that has AWD. I've driven the RL a few times, as a family member was one of the first in NJ to own one, and it's a very nice ride. It doesn't compare to the A6 or 5er in terms of handling and enjoyment of a drive, but it is ahead of them all in the "toy" department, and right now if you were going to tell me I had to pick one of the three and drive it for 150k miles I would have to go with the RL. I just don't trust German cars after 50k- and up until a few weeks ago I owned a '00 A8 with close to 100k on the odometer. It ran great with few problems- but when those minor things pop up it drains the pockets.

In my mind, Audi has stuck their nose in the air with the A6, and is going to be in an interesting position over the next few months. Either they won't be able to move the A6's off the lots as fast as they'd like, or they will have to start providing lease incentives. See, we are in a cycle where leases make up a MUCH larger portion of the transactions than in years past- especially in the midsize luxury sedan market. You can lease a 55k BMW right now for the mid-6's, which is several hundred $ a month below a loan payment. And with reliability still suspect on the European brands, it is not a bad choice.

Again, once the M and the 5x hit the showrooms in a few months, you will have FIVE brands competing for the same customer in what used to be an Audi market. Yeah, Mercedes offered the E4matic, but there was always a decent price difference between the A6 and the MB.

If I looked at a BMW 530xi and an Audi A6 3.2 in four months with a desire to lease, I'm pretty sure I would choose the 5er if all things were equal (comparably equipped, similar price points). Yeah, the Bimmer is going to list for more, but they are always aggressive on the residual (for good reason- they sell pretty well coming off leases) and have been targeting a younger demo with the 5er for the last few years by sweetening the lease incentives.

bargamon1 · December 2004

Quattro has always been about performance THEN all weather capable in my eyes. THe RL kinda promotes this, wheich is a good thing.

THe new offereings is good for the consumer. Competition alsways hels keep the price down.

The one thing about hte BMW 5 s3eries is that is remains ugly!

Mutant korean styling! I have yet to see teh new A6 on the road!

jgaines · December 2004

I actually like where the MMI control is as this is where my hand naturally falls when I am driving. Also, I believe that the MMI is quite intuitive once you get a chance to play around with it.

With regard to the acceleration lag, this is really an issue. If you look at the various posts on the remedy for this (incl. mine)I think you will be pleased to see that you can get around the problem. Still, one wonders why they would "field" a car that requires you to reset the drive by wire or experience lag in the first place.

markcincinnati · December 2004

Tiptronic Lag.

This condition, called tip-lag, has been discussed and discussed to death, here and elsewhere -- it has been a topic in the Quattro Quarterly, a publication of the Audi Car Club of NA.

FWIW, this condition is not an Audi-only condition. Scant better that makes me feel. Hence I am now off the fence again and thinking I just cannot take another auto transmission (my 1997 A8, 1999, 2000 and 2001 A6's were all automatics; my current 2003 allroad is a manual.)

At $50 large, I think I should be able to choose -- the word on the street is that there is no "for certain" date for the new A4 with the 3.2 with a stick, the initial batch for the US all being tiptronics. We're doomed.

Now the DSG, would be a whole nuther thang!

But, alas, tis not to be for at least another year or two.

Yes, there is a fix -- but it kinda reminds me of the TV I had in my bedroom when I was a little boy -- it was a hand me down that only would work if you "whacked the top of it," I put a thick magazine on the top and kept a hammer near by. Whenever I changed channels or first turned the thing on, I knew the only way to make it stop rolling was to give it a smart thwack on the magazine (to prevent the wood cabinet from getting dented).

Seems sometimes like an endless loop. Twer it only Audi, there would be a major outcry. This tip lag problem seems to be the high buck German car (probably other European cars, too, for that matter) "feature" that is fundamentally ignored. BMW, Audi and Mercedes drivers do not often protest, but those who purchase these cars with some expectation of them being "perfect driving machines" quickly find out about this near fatal flaw and, well, chat rooms all across the Internet wax and wane on this subject time and again.

Whoever the software programmers and designers are should be blessed with driving these lag ridden transmissions for 50,000 miles or so and THEN you'd see progress. The heck of it is, I'll wager that most of the left-brain types that program these things probably drive manual transmissions.

As a minority of one, I am once again thinking that the true lux or premium cars will offer stick shifts -- for a price -- to their customers that want them.

auditor · December 2004

We've been enjoying for some time now listening to you tell us that you're going to consider the Acura

RL and Chrysler 300 (and, who knows, maybe even the new BMW 530ix 4wd) before, as most of us suspect, you (the most loyal Audi owner on record) finally cave-in and get a 2005 A6 (3.2?) with Tiptronic.

Perhaps, you should just bite the $$$ bullet and get a 2005.5 S4 Avant with 6-speed tranny, which would give you all the power, sportiness, practicality and 6-speed tranny that you want?

Looking forward to seeing what you ultimately do!!

markcincinnati · December 2004

Went to the Acura store today -- no units avail to test drive. Last work day of the year, perhaps over the long weekend.

My wife, who started all of this, and you must be in cahoots -- but I will endure your good-natured barbs, since the "little voice" does indeed keep telling me I'd be nuts to change brands with THIS much pent up "reverse loyalty" capital from Audi and my long time dealer (since 1977).

My wife has me thinking at these prices "why not" get what you want? She wants NOW a new S3 -- possible, sure, not in time for her lease swap out which at most will be 5 months.

The 300C AWD or SRT-8 just screams bargain! And, yet the dealer experience screams (or I presume it will) rip-off! The Acura dealer is owned by the same guy who owns the Audi store, so there is at least some hope there that the loyalty points might transfer a little.

You know, I've been a Delta Medallion FF for about 10 years and I've got 100's of thousands of FF miles -- I know the points and the "ranking" don't mean a hill of beans on XYZ airlines -- so I go back to Delta, time and again (but what choice do I have in Cincinnati?).

In any case this is both fun and frustrating. Just as I get my heart sort of set on a new A6 type car, the tip lag creeps up into the postings -- I have lived for 29 months with a superb stick shift (and most auto journalists think the Audi allroad stick shift is "notchy") and I know all about tip lag, and it sucks.

So, I think, new A4 new engine, all A4's have always had stick shift available -- BAM! Audi taketh away.

We older Americans (I'm 53) just have to get with the times.

The only issue with the S4 is the V8 is soooooo thirsty -- and I am certain we are due for $3/gallon premium fuel in the near to mid term. So, that one as nice as it is becomes a tad less attractive.

The new A4 SLine 3.2 with a 6spd DSG or Stick shift would be sweet -- thus far there is but a glimmer of hope for that.

And, man the gripes over on Acura-land here on edmunds certainly don't make for an encouraging read, either!

Happy new year.

This is a fun and cheap passtime, don't you think?

ttran3 · December 2004

I am new to Audi and just took delivery of a 2005 A6 3.2 yesterday and experienced a couple of problems. One is the acceleration lag. I am so glad to find in your response that there is a work around for this. Could you kindly point me to where I can obtain information on this "work around" ? The second issue is that the engine shutdown on me a number of times while in drive. This, so far, occurred after I started the car and slowly pull away (probably no more than 5 mph). Prior to the shutdown, it reacted as if it was out of gas. I wonder if this relates to the lag. I don't want to say I am completely disappointed since I just took delivery of it yesterday. I've never experienced anything like this on all my prior vehicles. I am willing to drive it a few thousand miles and re-evaluate it then. Any help/info/stories you or anyone on the forum can share will greatly be appreciated.

safelder · December 2004

On the first:

1) Turn key to accessory position;

2) Depress gas pedal all the way to the floor and release;

3) Depress brake and start engine.

Some other solutions to the lag:

1) Punch it when you want the car to start in 1st

2) Drive with the transmission in "S" (sport) mode

3) Shift the car yourself in Tip

On the second:

Yikes. That's not the lag. I'd go chat with service on that one.

markcincinnati · December 2004

The work around noted above is dead-on; make it a habit EVERY time you get behind the wheel and you will "mostly" be unfazed by tip lag.

Aggressive starts in first gear will keep the tranny on its toes as it has an algorithm in it that uses a recent and average blend to determine when to upshift and when to go into "lag" mode, which I am convinced is a "feature" -- even though many of us who have had and love Audis consider it a programming "flaw."

Since the driver can "teach" the car to upshift somewhat later by the methods described above and via a "once in a while" jackrabbit start from stop, or and flooring the car to engage kickdown, well it should not be THAT awful.

The issue is -- it just keeps coming up! And if you read my rants, I could almost pull what little hair I have left out it is THAT frustrating to ME.

My three test drives of the new A6 did not demonstrate this "feature" -- my test drives impressed the heck out of me, in fact.

It is just my recollection of this lag, which I first encountered in an A8 that I owned, no less, that is, shall we say, disappointing.

But to keep it fair and balanced, as I noted, this is NOT unique to Audi.

safelder · December 2004

Credit where due: my post may have been dead on, but I got the info from you. I haven't had the opportunity to try it, since my car doesn't come in for another 9 weeks or so.

On my test drives (3 with the 3.2 and 1 with the 4.2), as I've noted before, they all experienced what I'd describe as a sluggish start from the line when in D. No problems in S or Tip. In D, the principal difference between the V6 and V8 is that the V6 powered nice and smooth once it shifted to 2d, while the V8 attempted to toss me through the trunk onto the highway. It scared the daylights out of my wife (used to an A4 3.0 Cabriolet) and dad (despite driving a C4S). I enjoyed it, but opted for the efficiency and sufficiency of the 3.2 in the end. V8 (at least) in my next, or 3d (read: my toy), car.

jgaines · December 2004

If you have the advanced key as I do, the modified approach is:

1. Prior to touching any pedals, hit start button, this will activate the cars electronics.

2. Press accelerator to the floor once.

3. Hold down brake and press start button again to start car.

You should do this every time you start engine to ensure no lag. Once you get in the habit its nothing really. I find driving around in sport mode ok for a while but the high revs and low roll factor gets annoying after a while. Tip mode is fine unless you are drinking coffee, talking on the phone, playing with the MMI, solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and performing advanced mathematical equations at the same time.

The engine shut down is a defect, unless you filled the tank with jet-A fuel. Take it back to the dealer and throw a hissy fit. This should not happen on the second day with a $50k machines.

good luck and give the car a chance. You may grow to like it, if not, there are many others from which to choose.

jeqq · January 2005

ttran3 · January 2005

Thank you safelder, markcincinnati and jgaines for your responses/tips/suggestions in handling the acceleration lag issue. I am not sure I want to get into the habit of depressing the accelerator method. However, I tried driving with a slightly heavier foot than normalat take off to "train" the computer and it seemed to help quite a bit. I have under 300 miles on the vehicle, still well within the break-in period. If the computer truly picks up on the driver's habit, perhaps this will improve further.

I have not experienced the engine shutdown issue anymore. On my 5th day of taking delivery of my A6 (1st Audi), I am finally beginning to enjoy driving it. Can't wait until after the break-in period to let loose and "really drive it" :-)

Thanks again everyone for your responses/help !

markcincinnati · January 2005

I am not suggesting that the break-in period is 5,000 miles; however, every Audi I have ever known seems to get its second wind around 5,000 miles. It is as if the engine finds a bit more power and economy after 5K miles.

Enjoy.

jgaines · January 2005

What is the normal break-in period?

liferules · January 2005

1000 miles.

gold233790 · January 2005

I just came off ownership of a 2000 A8, which I loved. Great vehicle, held up fabulously for 80k+ miles. Not one mechanical or electrical issue.

Anyway, I was going to lease my next car (several reasons, but most related to business). I started looking at the 3.2 and was very impressed. I dabbled with the E320 4matic, but have never really liked MB. Then drove the 530i.

I can go into great detail about about the reasons I made the decision to grab the BMW, but at the end of the day I was looking at two cars that I absolutely loved. The absence of AWD gave me pause, but I slapped four Blizzaks on the BMW and feel confident that the four or five days where it will make a difference I won't be left stranded. I found through experience with the A8 that even quattro doesn't make as much difference as a good set of snows in the white stuff.

Anyway.....the decision was based on the fact that I can lease the 530i- which stickered for over 1k more than a comparably equipped (sans AWD) Audi- for over $100 less per month.

If I were buying, I'd probably go Audi. But for $100/month, I could purchase several new sets of tires every year and still be ahead.

markcincinnati · January 2005

I have been at the factory in Ingolstadt -- 6 separate times, 4 with the Audi Car Club of N/A -- the factory "officials" indicated that there is only about a 200km "run in" period for new Audis (and they claim this is for the tires and brakes, primarily). The only break in kind of dialog they had for us was to vary the engine speed during the first 1000km -- no mention of limiting top RPM's.

I always felt that some break-in period was normal. Essentially, however, the factory officials said "seat the brakes and rough in the tires" and you can basically drive it on the autobahn without concern.

I would probably err on the side of some kind of break in, beyond 150 miles -- but apparently, little is actually required.

jgaines · January 2005

Thanks for the info. I pretty much assumed that the AUdi boys run the engines a bit before they ship, but in any case, I have been gentle with the new pup. The car is a dream on the highway by the way, everything seems to be functioning flawlessly. I f I could just get my blackberry to sinc up-the car and phone's blue tooth recognize eachother and log on, but at the last minute, the phone screen on the MMI says "please wait"-I am still waiting.

jeqq · January 2005

I also follow Audi guidelines during the break-in period, but I don't girly it, as Arnold said. I feel it is better to gradually keep pushing it without over revving the engine. I push it on takeoff and on the highway I push it to pass cars. As Mark said it's good to run the engine through different speeds and revs during break-in.

450 miles and so far no lag whatsoever, let's see what happens when I open her up after break-in.

One thing I noticed in last nights rain is the windshield is extremely streaked. I suspect these wipers have graphite and I'll probably change them. Plain old rubber works better for me. I still don't have the wiper speed control I want. Audi was never good about this in my last two cars. The rain sensor works, but still not enough control of the intermittent speeds that I would prefer.

Car is really great. Not the old A6, this is a much different feel. I wouldn't mind lowering the car just a bit for looks and handling. Way too much wheel/fender gap. MMI is a little obscure. One gripe I have is the lack of a rear master overhead light switch, so I don't wake up the kid at night. If I don't remember to shut off the master up front the rear lights up. I would also lower the panel on the instrument cluster that displays the turn signals. The top of the steering wheel cuts it off.

New interior is absolutely beautiful; I have Oyster Gray/Amaretto. People look around inside and love it. Everyone keeps asking what color the car is.

Driving in the rain is sooooo much better with quattro.

bargamon1 · January 2005

I really like the neutral characteristics of the quattro than the security of awd for bad weather. I think its largely played up to feed our insecurities. I think car companies are offering it as many don't want big suvs except for that feature. just a thought.

Taking corners with the allroad is a pleasure. The car is sure footed and fun to drive.

Mark, You have been to the factory? You must have 4 rings tatooed somewhere! I wonder just what percentage of cars have the tip lag?

My new Toyota Sienna minivan on its club website has many members discussing a similar problem. I have had one of the first ones made, and never expeienced it. As time went on it became apparent it was just few, but they were vocal about it.

Mark, given your card carrying status, perhaps you can take one for a few days over a weekend and test it out. Maybe a managers car if so available? I don't recall your time table of when you have to make a change.

Toyota GS, Infiniti M are also going to be on my list when the time comes. As will the A4, and the Avent versions of the 6 and 4. G35 6spd sport with awd sound interesting?

S4 avant is so cool, but I fear there will be times when I don't want to feel each nook and cranny of the road, and might wish for more interior space.

markcincinnati · January 2005

Yep, started going to the factory in 1993 -- in fact first visit we took the tour in German (we do not speak the langueage other than a word or two).

I've test driven the A6 3 times -- and we have two Audis in our garage at this time (2003 TT and allroad, both manual transmissions, both quattro, etc.)

My list includes, but see note below: Acura RL, Audi A4, A6 and possibly S4 and Chrysler 300 or SRT-8 AWD.

Note: my enthusiasm for staying loyal with the brand continues to wax. This weekend, the phone cradle that holds the factory phone in my wife's TT broke. The argument should be that this should not happen, but there is also the case for "operator error" -- in other words it is possible that we broke it. The thing is NOT fragile, but we inadvertently applied pressure to the phone and "snap" it went.

Again, the argument could be made either way -- although I would urge Audi to make the system stronger, etc.

Anyway, my wife needed her 40,000 mile check up soon (she has 36K miles on the TT); they know we already ordered a new A4 '05.5 for her and as the saying goes, they could've had us by the Old Testament. The service manager immediately overrode the service advisor and said "this $300 part is a warranty issue."

My point in this story is this:

When this happened we were about a mile away from the dealer, the dealer took the car, gave us a free loaner, did the service, ordered the part and the entire transaction was virtually painless.

I walk into a Chrysler dealer and only for the moment I am buying something am I even given the time of day. At the Acura dealer (also owned by the family that owns the Audi store) they wouldn't know us either, but "perhaps" our long time loyalty would transfer 20%? Maybe.

I read this as part of a market study I am undertaking and it seemed to fit with our current situation (our = my wife and me; situation = buy the best product or buy the best "relationship"?) -- author Dr. Margaret Singer on the intense

loyalty that people feel toward businesses that try to provide a more personal experience: Many adults today are overwhelmed by the

confusion and apparent coldness of our society [and the impersonality of business]. Many mature adults are finding less and less to hold onto in todays. . .culture. (Quoted in ClickZ Today, 3/21/03.)

My gripes about Audis are few -- can't get stick shifts universally, current pricing programs are "out of touch" somewhat -- see current BMW prices, for instance and Tip lag (which is darn near universal "if" you look for it.) It is becoming harder and harder to imagine moving away from the experience -- despite the fact that the product does have some noteworthy competition.

I'm slowly but surely caving into the ownership experience.

Now before you think this is a dealership experience -- I must remind you that Audi of America sent my wife and me on an all expense paid 4 day trip (including spending money) from Cincinnati to St. Moritz Switzerland for the women's downhill skiing finals (sponsored, by Audi); 5 star treatment the whole way and "not one sales pitch" during the entire time. Heck, we even were given Audi outerwear to keep us warm.

Pretty tough to beat that treatment by the larger entity too, don't you think?

Frustration, too in no RL's avail for test drives (although this too shall change, I am certain.)

Where was I?

jgaines · January 2005

Having read some of your recent posts and having test driven the RL several times, I can't imagine that you will be a "RL" man. I look forward to reading your review if you can find one to drive.

zspen · January 2005

Don't forget Audi's all inclusive maintenance program. The headlight went out on my 2002 A6 last week. The dealer said no appointment necessary to get it replaced. I stopped by at my convenience, they replaced the light, and I was on my way in 15 minutes. I had the same experience with replacement windshield wipers a few months ago. Try doing that at the Chrysler or Acura dealers.

I have previously driven Chrysler products and currently have an Acura MDX. The Acura ownership experience is better than Chrysler but does not come close to Audi. That goes for both the purchasing as well as servicing of the car. Spend a little time in the Acura showroom and service department and see for yourself.

jeqq · January 2005

I'm not sure that I fully understood your first paragraph, but I have to say that driving a Quattro in bad weather does give me a more secure feeling, for myself and my family. I feel the difference in the handling and control of the car. This is not something that is played up by Audi to feed our insecurities . It is a real perceived hands on feeling. You have an allroad and maybe you are not aware of the benefits of AWD, but believe me it's there. I would have to say most of us on the Audi forums are quite passionate about Quattro who know and feel the advantage it has over other systems.

ivan_99 · January 2005

Sounds like youre trying to talk yourself into an Audi, or hoping somebody will do it for you

Never driven any of the cars on your list heres my take:

I try not to go test drive cars...suffer from new car buyer syndrome.

RL  Might be a contender, but I wouldnt loose any sleep over it. Even if it were just as good Id go the Audi route.

A4 - Nice

S4  Nicer, Go for it.

A6  Youre a manual man...

300  Styling is a work of art on par with the TT. Cant see driving a car (even SRT8) that is available down at the rental lots. May turn into the next PT Cruiser; cool for a couple years then fizzle.

After owning 2 Audis and now a couple Japanese cars, I can honestly say I wish I went the German route. Especially regarding highway travel, nothing beats my old A6.

My decision was based on a financial one, the Japanese car dealer did 2K better on my trade in. 2K doesnt seem like a big deal now.

Perhaps a new Passat will be in my future (couple years anyway).

rayainsw · January 2005

" . .Tip lag (which is darn near universal "if" you look for it.) "

Just as a point (and for you, Mark, I expect it is academic given how you feel regarding manual trans. availability) I recently drove a 2005 S4 with the 6 Speed Tip.

No Tip Lag. None.

And I was looking for it. (Among other things.)

- Ray

Thinking that S4 would be a fun toy . . .

markcincinnati · January 2005

I can't comment on the S4, but can on the S6. Almost at the moment my pen was poised over the lease agreement for my 2003 allroad, a "leftover" S6 (which was, in 2002, only in Avant form -- and I am not confusing S6 with the RS anything, FYI) was "offered" to me for a test drive. The S6 MSRP was considerably more than my all possible optioned allroad 2.7T 6spd, but the EOMY discount made them closer in CAP COST than could have been imagined (something like $11,000 off MSRP). The S6 did NOT have navigation or I fear I may have made the leap to acquire it (on lease).

Anyway, I had test driven S6's before (I actually owned an S6 Sedan (MY 1995) for 49,000 miles and had great affection for the "S" treatment that Audi gives these cars.) And, coming off of a 2001 A6 4.2 sport (5spd tip with tip lag), I was familiar with the sound and fury of the Audi V8 -- and at that time, I loved it! The S6, finally getting to the point, did not have, nor could I induce, tip lag. The RS6, so I am told ditto.

All these various factors pertaining to this "feature" tip lag, make me believe that tip lag is deliberate (in that it probably does improve gas milage due to its penchant for "premature" upshifts -- when compared with the S program car's transmission shift characteristics.)

In any case, it would not be a stretch for me to buy, as fact, that the 6spd tip so connected and programmed for the S4 would have a different set of "if then else" attributes which would alter its behavior over the standard tip's programming.

I have, recently test driven two 2004 manual shift S4's -- best shifting Audis EVER (speaking about manual shift versions, that is.) I am not opposed to automatics "just because" as I suspect my wife is -- but reading the tip lag comments here and elsewhere (about the new A6's) did somewhat "rain on my parade." Then, to add insult to injury (a phrase to make the point, it is not THAT bad), the new A4 3.2 is announced with "all the toys" (well practically), a write up in several Car Mags that makes me think this new 3.2 in an A4 "could" be darn close to the previous generation S4 2.7T in performance, but with more A6 luxury -- and NO MANUAL!

I guess the manual transmission (the lack thereof) is a response to the market. The fact that new 3 and 5 series Bimmers can be had with manual transmissions and that (so far) only the lowest performance A4's and none the A6's can have manuals is, well, disappointing.

Personally, I think the manual transmission is an "upscale" feature/option -- it should not be relegated to the entry level Audi's, that is.

Another matter: I am not hoping someone will talk me into another Audi -- not at all. Indeed, in an odd way, I keep hoping that the ownership experience that (my wife and) I have had since 1977 will not overpower all contender's offerings because I do indeed believe that Audi (for literally the very first time since 1977) actually has some VERY worth competition.

The Speed channel's test report of the RWD 300C Chrysler, for instance, compared the 300C to an Audi A8! And the guy making this comparison was the very same driver who had drooled over the RS6 and new (at the time) V8 S4.

I look at a fully loaded AWD Chyrsler 300C at some $12,000 less than a V6 A6 and -- well, it just gives me pause.

I am jolted back to the reality of the situation however, when I walk into the Audi dealership and I am greeted like Norm on that now long gone TV show, "Cheers."

I don't need no-one to talk me into nuttin' -- this is just one company and one dealer that really knows how to treat its customers (speaking as an army of 1!)

Hence the eroding of my resolve to "objectively" be able to consider "the contenders."

audinut · January 2005

I have owned four Audi's and I also believe in the 5000 mile barrier. I think it has something to do with the factory installed oil which may be a thicker break in oil. After the first oil change the engine seems to run smoother and quieter as well as providing more power.

maui19 · January 2005

Now that I'm out of my break-in period and have had more time behind the wheel of my '05 A6 4.2, I'm finding that most, if not all, of my perceived throttle lag was a hangover from my E320. The E320 had huge throttle lag, requiring you to mash the throttle, then back off quickly to get the car underway. It has taken me a while to unlearn that behavior. Now that I have been softer and steadier on the throttle, and have been driving the car more aggressively (and the adaptive tranny has taken note), I find the car to be very responsive from the start. There is no lag apparent now. This reminds me of when I first drove the 3.2: it's throttle was smooth and linear, while the 4.2 was not.

I still find the brakes to be overboosted at low speeds. I've modified my braking habits as well to compensate for this, but it is still a bit of a pain.

All in all, this has been my best new car experience to date.

gold233790 · January 2005

I've owned an '00 A8, my wife an '01 A6. For the life of our ownership, the Audi dealership we bought and serviced at was absolutely spectacular.

My salesperson would find me in the service department at dropoff, demand that I be given an Audi loaner, and inquire about my ownership experience. The receptionist fixed me coffee one time while I was waiting for the scheduled maintenance to finish up, and the next time I brought the car in they had a cup for me the way I like it.

Some may feel that is a little "gimmicky", but quite frankly I could not care less. I felt like a valued customer, and that I bought a luxury vehicle and was being treated as such.

Now.....I am an owner of a BMW 530i. I love Audi, and love their cars. But I am leasing this vehicle. As I wrote earlier, the fabulous brand loyalty that Audi established over the past 5 years or so is quickly eroded by a $100+ per month difference in similarly stickered cars. I'm sure I'll bemoan the decision on the five days a year where AWD would really help me (such as today), but otherwise I like both the 530 and A6 about equally.

I'll ALWAYS include Audi in my car searches. This is the first time that it has lost to another brand over my last several decisions, but I do foresee future ownership/leasing.

bargamon1 · January 2005

I love the quattro! I love it when the weather is great! That was my point. I like knowing its there when it is not, but I love what it does when the weather is just fine. Most people buy awd for security reasons. That's cool also!

most adds show SUVs going up mountains, on rough terrain, etc.

I want my vehicle to STAY on the road! My allRoad does all kinds of cool things, but I got a great deal on it, and it was a 6spd, and I am glad 2 years later on this impulse purchase.

I like the audi image, the service and of course the car. I enjoy driving a low volume model that is different.

After looking at pictures of the new M45, GS300/430, the Acura RL, I must say the new A6 looks the best and remains distinct!

Im 18mos out, so I am very happy all these offerings are being introduced now, and I can evaluate after they are proven, and pricing is easier.

bargamon1 · January 2005

I understand your point with the pricing and getting a BMW.. They are not too shabby either!

Depending on the circumstances, I might just visit them again if I were looking at similar numbers.

markcincinnati · January 2005

An "open letter" to my long time dealer and long time dealer sales rep:

o A new 2005 BMW 530i with a configured MSRP of $54,910 can be leased for $698/mo for 36 months with no money down.

o A new 2005 A6 3.2 with a configured MSRP of $51,520 ($3,390 less than the BMW) can be leased for $781/mo for 36 months with no money down.

o Both figure a $2,500 dealer cap cost reduction.

o Both figure 15,000 miles per year.

Now. . .

If we crank up the A6 3.2 to its MAX price (according to Audi of America's build your own A6 on the Audi website) of $53,770, still over $1,000 less than the BMW, the lease with the same cap reduction and same everything else, climbs to (drum roll please) $817.83/month for a car sold in Cincinnati. Imagine if we took off one $1,000 option from the BMW, what would happen to the price (hint, it would drop more than $15 per month).

People I know, people who would love either a new 5 series (530i) or new A6 (3.2) -- would be able to add even more options to the BMW to get it's payment to increase another $119.83. When we get the prices even closer to each other, the Audi A6 3.2 is almost $150 per month MORE than the BMW 530i. $150 per month more.

You can truthfully (and arguably, of course) state that the Audi is a "superior" car (but many folks would call them "comparable" -- even folks who think "quattro alone" is a selling feature, would rank the 5 series and the A6 as competitors.)

Having said this, you can add that with the 5 series you have several more option choices than are offered with the A6; for instance, the 5 series offers a choice of three transmissions (manual, full auto or SMG [BMW's version of Audi's DSG]), "Tele-aid" is standard (BMW's GPS+accident tracking system + concierge service -- the BMW version of On*star [no longer available on the Audi, BTW], that is) and when priced as close as is humanly possible to identical, gulp, you still have the Audi cost ~ $150 per month more. THIS IS a huge disadvantage that cannot be dismissed by claiming the Audi is simply "more better."

The differences, other than quattro, for many people will not justify the price disparity,i.e.

If, you figure that the BMW AWD version will add about $2,000 (or so) you can see a fully equipped 530ix (or "xi") will sport an even bigger MSRP -- but even with all options plus BMW's upcoming AWD, if the pricing (for the BMW) remains as aggressive as it is now, you will still be over $100 less than the A6.

These statistics are too far apart for most of the people I know to ignore and dismiss by saying "yea. . .but the Audi is a superior car."

It is somewhat true that the lease payment is either "somewhat important," "very important" or "most important" to virtually all customers of cars at these price points. Today, the only reason the Audi A6 might "win" despite its price disadvantage is if the prospective customer MUST HAVE AWD Immediately -- today (can't wait another 3 - 6 months, that is.) Loyalty to the dealer or the brand is difficult when the price differences are so far apart.

Look at it this way: to "step up?" to a less expensive (MSRP) Audi from a more expensive (MSRP) BMW, will require a payment that is almost 17.5% more -- in the world of "bragging rights" (a sense of getting a "good deal") and/or "mine cost more than yours, but I pay less" -- it is tough to NOT consider the BMW over the A6.

Now, sir, my wife and I will always buy from you -- and will always buy Audis (we have acquired over 27 of them from your dealership and the vast majority of those from you, not to mention the dozens of referrals we have made for Audi, your dealership and you, personally) -- IF POSSIBLE. We want AWD, Audi [today] has it in both the A4 and A6; yet, BMW will soon have it in the 5 series and they will carry it over in the new upcoming 3 series. BMW includes maintenance -- just like Audi.

There will be, shortly, an "all brand new" 3 series and a "largely new" A4 for 2005.5 & then 2006. Your dealership treats my wife and me like the character "Norm" on the TV show Cheers; the service technicians and everything about the dealership is top-notch (other than your not having voice mail in a brand new $7,000,000 facility.) We feel "special" when we come to the dealership, off the chart special.

But -- and this is crucial -- a price difference of $150 per month for 36 months translates to: $5,400 in cash. Put it another way, if we applied $150 per month to our house payment, for 36 months we could knock our number of months remaining on our mortgage down by an amount in excess of 2 years. This would save us an additional $25,000 in interest charges on our mortgage and allow us to stop making house payments that much sooner, if you get my drift.

Buying/leasing the Audi when the comparison with a "like priced" (MSRP) auto from Germany is not simply a $150 cost reduction -- it would allow lifetime asset accumulation of materially over $25,000 -- which is 1/2 the cost of another new $50,000 car, don't you know.

People that buy / lease cars in this class are not likely to lose sight of this huge discrepancy (and the opportunity cost of said decisions.) Once the 530 AWD version hits the market, Audi will lose one of its claims to differentiation and will be then one of three high-buck German cars that can be had with AWD: Audi A6, BMW 5, Mercedes E.

I cannot imagine if one is 23, 33, 43, 53 or 63 years of age that these facts and figures are lost on someone who has the wherewithal to shop for and afford these fine European cars. Audi may have the "hot product" for another 15 minutes (of fame) -- but unless something is done to attract customers into the showroom, how in the wide wide world of sports will it be possible to sell the cars on their merits? With configurations and price estimators on all of the web-sites, Audi may be losing show-room traffic, just because of the price per month "kalculation."

I suspect that if you, personally, were in the same circumstances you would examine your needs and wants and consider them on a scale of attributes of which, one, at least, was "bang for the buck."

Audi's new A6 is barely giving a "pop" for the buck -- while the BMW (to name just one) is firing loud and clear "bang, bang, bang."

Just some random thoughts.

Mark

P.S. I didn't even mention the new 2005 Acura RL or Chrysler 300C AWD

jeqq · January 2005

Mark, I totally agree with you. Audi has to be more competitive, like they were for many years before. Granted the "05 A6 is a much more refined car than previous years. For many years Audi was the better choice between the two because of amenities , quattro and "pricing". The engine and transmission are now equal or in the case of the engine maybe superior to the 530. But they've got to be more competitively priced when leasing.

I went with the Audi for a number of reasons. Firstly, I found a sales rep at a new dealer that was a straight shooter, and the service dept had people that are nice and happy to help you. My experience with my previous dealer was the opposite.

Secondly, I was on a six-month lease extension.

I would like to show you the difference for me in the math between a 530 and an A6 taking into consideration the 530 buys snow tires.

The 530 was leased by Gold233790. His 530's MSRP was $52,495, he paid $49k plus. His lease was $630/month, incl NJ tax, 36 months/15k. My car's MSRP was $50,270, I paid $48,152. Lease was 36 months/15k=$726/month incl NY tax. On a 36 month lease the difference is $3,600, a nice bag of shells as someone once said to me.

My out of pocket $1662 which included 1st month $726 + $800 acquisition fee + $136 in misc. fees. Audi also added a cash incentive to stay loyal to the brand. If you extended your lease, (extensions are allowed up to 6 additional months) and then lease a new car, they refunded 2 of the extension payments. In my case that was $1,223. Add to that no security deposit $726, and gold233790 is up $1,600 on his deal. After buying snows he's now up a grand. I'm also assuming gold233790 left no money down.

Both of us got good deals on two great cars.

Mark, if you want to narrow the gap this scenario brings it down to about a grand.

ivan_99 · January 2005

Mark,

Do those calculations only apply to leases, or buying.

If you were to purchase the autos and keep them for 7 years do you think the difference would be as pronounced? I realize that predicting residual value 7 years from now is not an exact science. BMWs do seem to hold value

When BMW releases their new 6s it may be even more difficult for Audi.

Why is there no Infiniti M45 in your list? So far its unproven in a direct comparison, but on paper anyway it seems very compelling.

gold233790 · January 2005

Mark-

That's why I'm driving a 530 instead of the new A6. And I'm coming off ownership of a 2000 A8. Wife had an '01 A6. Loved 'em both.

But I was leasing this time, and as jegg presented above I was able to save a significant amount of $.

One thing I do want to add is that when the 5 series comes out with AWD this summer, not only will the price increase by about 2k, but the residual will decrease by about 2% compared to the RWD version. This is the case with the 3 series xi, and I've been told will happen to the AWD version.

gold233790 · January 2005

If you were to purchase and own for 5+ years, I'd suggest you go with the vehicle you prefer. BMW will most likely hold a higher resale (less so if you are in a colder climate), but after 5-7 years that number won't mean much if you can afford now to buy a 50kish car.

I accepted less value on my A8 because the market for an 82k mile German car that stickered north of 60k four years ago wasn't that great.

I absolutely loved the 3.2 when I test drove it and was praying for the lease rates to improve. Audi actualy did so, but not by enough. The finance rate is fine on the lease- but a 55% residual for a brand new 50k car is killing it.

markcincinnati · January 2005

I used the on-line configurators to "build" the cars for this discussion. I used the on-line finance tools to calculate the closed end lease costs and used $2500 off of MSRP just as a "plug number." The discounts, however, are not impossible to imagine, however -- and at the right time, even higher discounts (or lower) are also possible.

For me: for my tastes, income, life style, "weenie-ness" (I like to have cars with new gizmos, etc.) and my aversion to "breathtaking" expenses (which any of these German cars are quite capable of producing beyond 50,000 miles on the od), I cannot fathom buying a $50,000 car, unless I did so in cash or a near zero or zero interest.

I buy what appreciates (or attempt to) and rent (or lease) what depreciates. Cars depreciate so fast and so steeply I cannot imagine buying one, unless that "magic" one year old low low low milage car comes along at 70% (or less) of the original MSRP.

It is my opinion that BMW's (above the 3 series) do NOT hold their value well at all (ditto the Audis above the A4 series, FWIW.)

Perhaps -- PERHAPS -- it is possible to buy and keep a Japanese car for 7 years and make the numbers work. Heck, for all I know it is done with European cars. My "weenie-ness" at this point prohibits me from even thinking that far out, since I want the safety, performance, fun and convenience features that seem to come out about every 2 - 4 years; waiting 7 years is not something I would consider -- but, and I make this point to clarify, that is my opinion and it does not mean I hold you or anyone out as "less than sagacious" if they choose to do otherwise.

bargamon1 · January 2005

Mark, you had me at hello, but lost me when you equated paying down your mortgage!

You make a good arguement. YOur a lawyer, you make a great arguement!

I you walked into Cadilac you'd have a disparity also. Your looking at those residual rates and car companies have taken a beating on them in the past. I think when the demand decreases enough, they will subsidize them.

Thank you for sharing this with us. Your efforts serve the audi buying community!

Whattayathink of the new allroad presented in detroit! Gizmo laden, but it might be a sign they might continue the option again.

pat · January 2005

Bargamon1 would like you to see these pictures of the S-Line in Europe and says your ride is here!

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/picture_library/dir_34/car_portal_pi- c_17186.jpg?8939

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/picture_library/dir_34/car_portal_pi- c_17187.jpg?4994

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/picture_library/dir_34/car_portal_pi- c_17188.jpg?749

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/picture_library/dir_34/car_portal_pi- c_17189.jpg?4276

Enjoy!

bargamon1 · January 2005

Thanks Pat!

Mark,

The last picture is the 6speed!

We must get one for you!

markcincinnati · January 2005

Unsubstantiated rumor. S-Line A4's avail in early Fall or late Summer -- 2.0T and 3.2 both with 6spd manuals!

Apparently, new A4's ordered after a certain date (May, 2005 perhaps?) will be 2006's and this "oversight" (no 3.2 manual) will be corrected.

End of rumor.

I am rapidly coming to a 3 month window of time. Two key "features" of the S-Line really get my attention: 18" wheels and the "sportier" seats (I believe the suspension itself is the same as the regular sport package (which at present only has 17" wheels).) One other "feature" that I have grown to depend upon and believe is a safety feature is "voice activation" of the phone (and if like the new A6 also includes the nav system, etc.)

Dilemma: "if" the initial release ONLY of the new A4 3.2 is ONLY offered with a tiptronic, but then a short 2 to 4 months afterwards a 6spd manual (or perhaps even DSG version) is offered will I "hate myself in the morning?"

As I approach 45,000 miles and less than 6 months to go -- total -- on my current car, I would hate to "run naked" (without warranty) and/or run out of time (but I did hear there was a program that allowed you to keep making your lease payments and have them apply as a cap cost reduction to your new Audi Financial lease -- again this currently goes into the rumor column.)

The S4 certainly is a possibility, but there is that thirsty V8 to contend with -- and coming soon $3.00 a gallon gasoline (either I need to overcome this aversion or win the lottery; besides, I read a test report of the new A4 3.2 which said it was a worthy successor to the B5 2.7T S4)!

It's a tough life, ain't it?

bargamon1 · January 2005

Mark, what did the dealer say to your letter?

What if you leased a used car with an extended warranty for one year until this mess is sorted out. What if you turned in yours, and they shot it back to you with the warranty.

27 audi's, they should do somthing for you!

Given your card carrying status and history, they should one off you anything you want!

markcincinnati · January 2005

Dealer forwarded my letter to a German who works in the US for AoA. He responded that the sales rep should work to sell value and not worry about the competition so much.

I wondered if the spirit of what I was trying to say was lost on this person -- for I was not intending to put anyone into a defensive mode.

And, I am not even considering a BMW 5 series -- the point was not to talk down to anyone. My gist was as a "fan" of Audi not someone who was attempting to tell them they had an inferior product at an overblown price (although I am sure that some folks do believe that -- not me, however.)

I was not pleased with the response but it was kind of what I expected. It seems that to sell to us Americans, a sense of our thought processes would be beneficial.

My mind is made up -- NOT to buy a BMW, but apparently my message was interpreted as more hostile than it was intended.

What will be will be. . .

auditor · January 2005

A few weeks back, I and a few others suggested you both test drive and seriously consider getting a 2005.5 S4 6-speed manual Avant, since it would have the suspension, transmission and power that you've said repeatedly that you want!!

Perhaps, a fairly fully-equipped S4 would have about the same MSRP (and cap. cost reduced amount) as the fully equipped A6 3.2 you've priced out, BUT maybe the lease terms (residual and/or money factor) would make that S4 less costly for you to lease than the A6 3.2 you're now contemplating.

Once you get over the hurdle of its thirsy V8 (remember, you're not getting any younger, so you might as well have as many "blasts" as you can),

or realize that it might be reasonable to pay a bit more for the fun you'll have for 2 yrs. or so,

you might just want to try it.

markcincinnati · January 2005

My Windows desktop background is now what I think is a new A4 3.2 S-Line. Based on the review I read today in the magazine called the Quattro Quarterly, I believe THAT would be THE one that would win my biz -- assuming I remain an "Audi Loyalist" (which it will be difficult NOT to remain.)

Besides, my need for an avant is frankly secondary. Don't know if you saw the new generation concept allroad (all over the web in coverage of the Detroit Auto Show) -- and that one could be ready for the car after the one I will next acquire (and I love my allroad, BTW.)

The trunk space of the new A4 series looks more than adequate for my wife, two shelties and me (the dogs have very tiny suitcases!)

The S4 is a powerful draw and it, apparently, will be competitively priced (unlike the current A6 -- which I am led to believe will "soon" have a more agressive lease program.)

This is fun though -- but as I have noted, I need to "place the order" for the new whatever in about 2+ months or when I reach 45,000 miles whichever takes longer. I have no reason to believe my allroad would bite me in the wallet beyond 50K miles, but -- virtually any repair on a 2.7T allroad of any significance would be "breathtakingly expensive." Hence my wont to time this transition to remain in warranty as I pull in that one last time to the _________ dealership in my allroad.

jeqq · January 2005

yes yes yeeesssss yeeeeeeessssss go for it.

Now Mark, don't get upset with me....I, I, I just couldn't help it, it just reminded me of "When Harry met Sally".

markcincinnati · January 2005

. . .also read some more write ups on the 3.2 A4 -- nuttin' but love from the press, thus far.

The A4 seems even more this time to be an 8/10ths A6; and with the hoped for 6spd manual with the 3.2 engine in a sport tuned A4 chassis, the thing could only be called "S4 - lite" in my humble opinion.

Heard on the WWW: 4.2 will get the FSI treatment "soon" and US gasoline will be "cleaner" in about a year, making the FSI treatment gain even more efficiency.

Ain't technology grand?!?

Audi A6

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles