Audi A6

liferules · April 2005

In contrast to USA Today, The Washington Times article, also out today, finds the A6 to be superior to its competitors.

Kind of funny how so many mags/newspapers have such diametrically opposite opinions about this car. I guess it polarizes people...either you love it or hate it.

http://washingtontimes.com/autoweekend/20050421-010446-6929r.htm

:shades:

markcincinnati · April 2005

I found both articles to be useful. The Times article seemed to be more of an Audi brochure, less comparison, less point of reference.

Accuracy? Neither one has that market cornered.

There were no excuses made at all by Healey. I do not know if he is highly respected or thought to be a hack -- I find him to be one of a "thousand" points of light.

rangerwalker · April 2005

The USA Today writer starts off in an angry, frustarted tone due to his difficulty changing the time on the dashboard clock (not sure why changing the time during a test drive is such a priority, but he was determined to make a point). He continues his MMI critique for 6 or 7 paragraphs. He also announces early on that the car is ugly - both front and back.

The MMI takes a little time to learn how to use, but not much more than Infinit's version (I was able to use both within a short period of time on test drives - not as big a deal as some writers claim).

The A6 does adapt quickly to your driving style, and the engine becomes more responsive and smoother (within weeks). I saw this also with the allroad 2.7T. After 50,000 miles that car felt faster and drove more smoothly as time went on.

The A6 is not perfect, but the article was overly negative in tone.

markcincinnati · April 2005

Being a long term Audi fan and owner, I do agree the article certainly could be seen to be negative -- I don't know if it was overly negative. But I accept that interpretation is quite possible.

There are several (many) very positive write ups about the new Audi -- yet there are not many positive (in the final analysis) comparison write ups. Healey may have an axe to grind with Audi, he may be so totally biased his opinions should be taken with a grain. I have no clue about his biases -- he does state his opinions. He does put his comments in context.

I read the stand alone review of the new A6 4.2 AND the subsequent comparison review in Car and Driver. I had to reread the stand alone review after I read the comparison review -- I thought they must've had their head up their nose, as I thought they were in wild contradiction to one another.

Yet, when I reread the stand alone (apparently positive) review of the A6, I saw the "seeds" sown for its "not top 3" ranking in the subsequent comparison review.

Healey's "stand alone" article differs from some write ups in that he does offer up comparative remarks -- he had previously tested other "same class" cars and was able to discuss this in his article. Perhaps he should NOT have done this since this was not a comparison review (ostensibly).

I didn't focus, I hardly remembered in fact, on the MMI comments -- in fact I don't even agree with all the criticisms about such systems. Indeed, it blows me away that if you never tried one of these systems yourself and only were led by what you read, that you would think you can't even turn the radio volume up and down without multiple "windows like" iterative steps.

Yes, the Audi isn't perfect, but it has won so many accolades (this current car) so much recognition and has been so celebrated -- it is refreshing to read someone's opinion (and that is what it is) who is not simply regurgitating the company's press release.

From my point of view, I wish I would have seriously considered the 2004 Audi A6 S-Line or 4.2, for I am coming to the conclusion that the outgoing model still has much to recommend, much to say for itself.

The A6 3.2 is becoming, for me, a case of "The Emperor's New Clothes."

Healey, to his credit, sees the "underwear." I wish I had this prescience.

esf · April 2005

That's pretty over-reactive, considering that the A6 was voted World Car of the Year this year, otherwise known as the best car in the world right now. I don't understand what's so ugly about it- sounds too opinionized for a serious newspaper. I think it's pretty drop-dead for a midsize sedan, thinking about the style of its peers compared to it. No comparison. The Audi is a very pretty car in my young eyes, and it's not perfect, but it's the closest to perfect an Audi A6 or its predecessors have been. It undoubtably beats the BMW 5 Series in every comparison test, except one from the British Car magazine that was testing diesels: The Jaguar S-Type 3.0D, the Audi A6 3.0 TDI quattro, and the BMW 530d. Of course, like always in that magazine, the Jaguar won plainly because it's British, and the Audi came in last because they like BMWs better. Geez, we're not that boastful about American cars, and yet, they think theirs are the best in the world. The only thing innovative about Jaguar is its dated styling. The XK is sort of getting long in the tooth, too. I think the only truly cool British manufacturer is Aston Martin, but Bentley is getting cool under Volkswagen's rule, too. Anyway, the A6 lost, and that was the only comparison test it ever came in last in, in its short life so far.

esf · April 2005

You do remember, though, that in Automobile Magazine, the results were like this in a midsize, V8, luxury-saloon comparison test:

#1: Audi A6 4.2 quattro
#2: Lexus GS 430
#3: Mercedes-Benz E-500
#4: Jaguar S-Type 4.2
#5: Infiniti M45
#6: Cadillac STS V8 RWD
#7: BMW 545i
#8: Acura RL SH-AWD

I may be over protective of Audi, but I'm just showing what's there. The two car comparisons are very alike, with the exception of having a 530i and E-350 in a group of V8 sedans (Why?), and, of course, the outcome. I wasn't surprised by the Infiniti's leadership there- it is an impeccable sedan. I think that, overall, though, the Automobile comparison is better, in the way it looks, the cars they used, and the sensible outcome they had. I might put the 545i in front of the STS, though.

bargamon1 · April 2005

Style is always subjective to whom it pleases.

Mark, a fully pimped out 2004 4.2 vs. New 3.5 M? interesting!

I recall your original discontent was lack of manual tranny?

July is still so far away, too bad you jumped the gun! So many months, so many things can happen.

A few years back I wrote an offer on a post it note for a certain Mercedes and told the salesmen to stick it on his moniter, and the other (copy provided) for his sales manager. If they get to the end of the month and want to move a unit they should consider my offer. It was for one of the most common model configuration so I knew they would always have it in stock.

At month two they called me and said if I could consumate the transaction in 24 hrs I should come down, pick out a car, and pay by check, its a done deal. I had a client in my office at the time and he questioned what I was doing. I told him my deal and we called and asked if they could duplicate it! They were thrilled to move two units to make the month. Gotta be patient and understand the market. Supply and demand.

Now will I be able to do the same with a request for "Oyster gray with Ameretto leather??

markcincinnati · April 2005

My discontent was and remains no manual. However, unlike my wife, I will settle for the auto. What other choice did I have? The Audi 3.2 and 4.2 and the previous 2.7T S-Line and 4.2 were all auto only. The new A4 3.2, at that moment, auto only. The new BMW 5 "X" not out, probably well over $54K, etc etc etc. The STS, with sport and AWD $63K?

The 300C AWD auto. Merecedes "4Matic" automatic, only.

I am one guy, and I can't vote for something that isn't on the ballot. And, a write in for a manual isn't possible. I didn't want us to have 2 X3's either.

The new BMW 330xi might have been ok, but so might have been the S4.

I wanted the size of the A6, or "M." I would've taken an A6 3.2 for the same money or a little more than I paid for the M35x -- no choice.

wbreaux1 · April 2005

"The two car comparisons are very alike, with the exception of having a 530i and E-350 in a group of V8 sedans (Why?)" I think the plain answer to that, as I believe was described in the article, was price. I'm looking for a new car in this sort of segment, was sort of sold on an A8, which I believe to be one of the world's great cars, but am rethinking because of price. I had my E320 in the shop at Mercedes the other day and walked through the lot. I think they've increased prices across the board (it seems like the SLs, Ss, and E's were increased several thousand $s since I looked last). I can't believe the premium they are charging for the Mercedes name. An E500, with nav / nice wheels / sunroof, was almost $65k list! For an equivalent A6 4.2, they are asking about $10k more, for a car that arguably is not any better (or as good??).

I sometimes think an E500 or 545 would be a good car to have, and they are nice, but when I look at the price, comparably equipped they're getting real close to a SWB A8, which is much more car. So I can see why the review put a limit to prices by including 6 cylinder cars from Mercedes and BMW.

bargamon1 · April 2005

I remember a 420Sel sticker was $58,000 in 1989!

THink how much more $58,000 buys now!

I have a problem with going over $50,000. Its a glass ceiling that makes not sense, but its just number I don't want to cross!

liferules · April 2005

I agree, bargamon1.

It does sound silly, but I also didn't want to go much over the $50K limit. That's why I went with the 3.2 A6 instead of the 4.2 (also the fact that I could get it 4 months earlier may have played a role as my old car was literally falling apart...).

My feeling is that if you're going to go beyond $50K, then there are so many other possibilities. For leasing, you can get up to $70K cars at times for rates not much more than these on a monthly basis... And if you're going to spend $58 or $60K, why not look into the A8, 7 series, or S-class? Or go for that eclectic sporty dream car you've always wanted (such as a Porsche)...

observer22 · April 2005

esf · April 2005

I forgot about that- of course! The BMW and Mercedes are too expensive!

I really don't love Mercedes, but they're not just charging extra for the name. Besides for Chrysler, DaimlerChrysler is having financial problems right now, though not as big as GM's. The Smart is having huge trouble- production of the 'upcoming' SUV is frozen, and there were rumors about Mercedes shutting Smart down, and never bringing it to America. They will bring it to America (eventually), after they get a jump-start in Europe. The only Smart that's doing damage to their sales is the Fourfour, which has had dwindling sales since day one, and they're basically losing money.

I don't know what's wrong with the BMW- the A6 is much better-equipped, but the BMW (545) is about $5K more. Maybe Volkswagen just has the liberty to lower prices, because the Audi line of cars is having record sales right now. Like, how China is now the world's biggest car feed, Audi was one of the first and biggest demands there. Cadillac was, too, but the STS V8 AWD still starts at $13K more than an A6 4.2 quattro, and still when AWD is standard on the A6. Makes you think- why doesn't everyone buy an Audi? Because Japan's still there. I own two Audis, a Lexus, and a Honda, and I can see why many Americans love Japanese cars.

Japan is the leader in innovative technology, sleek style, and class-leading prices. I don't know how they do it, but damn, it's a winning formula!

Cars: 2005 Audi S4 Cabriolet, 2004 Lexus RX330, 2003 Honda Civic Coupe EX, 1998 Audi A4 1.8T.

esf · April 2005

Because you can't buy a new A8, S-Class, or 7 Series for $58-60K! And, the only Porsche you could buy for that money is maybe a fully-loaded Boxster S or the upcoming Cayman coupe. The Porsche 911 Carrera starts at about $72,000, and the Carrera S starts at $78,000!

Of course, if you got a full load on an A6 4.2, you'd have a pretty nice A6! They cost about that much fully loaded, while the A6 3.2 goes for about $53K fully loaded. You could also buy a semi-nice E 500 or 545 with that money.

esf · April 2005

I'd agree with you about value, but you're not really getting the luxury you'd get with an A6 in an Infiniti- the materials aren't nearly as top-notch as an A6, which is a world leader (seriously). And, you have to remember, that among German luxury cars, Audi is the value leader. You'd be spending about $15K more on a BMW and $20K more on the Mercedes to that comparably equipped Infiniti. But, I admire the M Series- definitely one of the best from Japan. The GS 300 AWD may be a little better overall, for the money, but you're getting more performance with the Infiniti. Good choice

!

markcincinnati · April 2005

I do not have any argument with your conclusions and historically I would have found your comments pertaining to Audi as "the value leader" to be dead on. Moreover, I often found that the Audi was the leader regardless of price.

I have used this true example but it does serve to paint the picture, then and now:

I purchased (leased) my second Audi A6 4.2 (a 2001) in December 2000. My friend leased his BMW 530 also a 2001 at about the same time, perhaps in January.

Both cars were close to $50,000 at MSRP. My Audi was a few hundred dollars more than his BMW.

He had a 6 cylinder engine, I had an 8, a very sweeeet sounding V8. He could've had a stick shift, but got the auto instead (both of these auto transmissions are, IMHO, annoying on good days "tip lag, step lag" whatever you want to call it, they both had it). I had a real back seat, he, not so much. He had a real full screen nav system, I had nav-lite (both worked fine, though).

And, I had AWD he had RWD and was forced to use his Jeep on days when there was "weather." I didn't need to have a backup vehicle.

My car, at that moment, was so far and away a better value AND, I'll argue, a better car for essentially identical money (at MSRP). The Audi lease deal also favored it over the BMW.

I traded my 2001 A6 4.2 in on a fully optioned (except no auto trans) 2003 allroad in 2002. It was $49K.

As I neared the end of this lease, I began shopping for a new A6 (3.2, I assumed as I am convinced US gasoline --premium -- will soon be $3.00 per gallon and I thought the 3.2 FSI would be "more economical").

I priced, for the heck of it, several cars from several manufacturers. The car I wanted despite it less than impressive power was the new A6 3.2. Configured as I wanted it it was just under $53K. I configured a similar BMW 5 series and similarly equipped the BMW was $57K. Yet, the mo pay apples to apples was about $120 less for a car that was nearly $4K more.

Audi may be the value leader at MSRP, but the more steep depreciation makes Audis, apparently -- now -- more expensive than their rivals. Even if I were to pay cash, the depreciation would hit the "asset" and make the Audi more expensive since it would decline in value sooner.

Audi, in one new model switchover, went from the value leader, the CLEAR value leader, to "not so much."

As I have said, I would have paid slightly more for a new A6 3.2 -- more than the new Infiniti M35X (about as close to Infiniti's version of the A6 as one can imagine); but the Inifiniti at $50,240 was almost $3K less than the Audi and was over $150 less on the monthly lease -- additionally, the Infiniti had more power and higher content. The "perfect storm" of events made this first ever leap from Audi to a Japanese brand happen.

To this day, I would take the Audi as I had configured it for "about even" money if such a thing were possible. I like and am that loyal to Audi. I just can't, however, see the A6 as being a value (at this time) in this new group of cars from all over the world. So, in my eyes, the Audi went from being the leader in content, performance and value (for about 20 - 25 years) to being a member of the pack of Luxury Performance Sedans, a wonderful car, better in some ways than the one it replaced (and lower in performance by a large measure, but higher in every other regard) but at a significant cost increase that when compared with the new crop of AWD sedans from all over the world was no longer the value leader either.

Hope springs eternal -- I'll see what shakes out over the next 36 months when, once again, I'll be in the market.

I just might end up regretting not getting the new A6 -- time will tell.

liferules · April 2005

esf,

You took my words too literal. My point was that once one has passed the $50K barrier, it doesn't seem too much to bump from the upper 50's or low 60's into the 70's...etc... Honestly, what would the lease rates be between a $60K maxed out 5 series vs. a $72K S-class...not that big of a jump IMO...

I personally love the C6 A6 and wouldn't change my mind, but had to agree that I also have a $50K barrier. That's partly why I went with the 3.2 instead of the 4.2. Could afford it, but didn't feel it was worth getting into the higher 50's for little payback personally...

rjlaero · April 2005

Don't consider this written in stone, but a bit of inside info on the 2006 A6:

Audi will simplify it's packages and make it easier for customers and dealers alike.

----- A Technology Package will be offered that will bundle Navigation, Voice Activation, Parktronic, and Advanced Key all together. The DVD Nav will still be offered as a stand alone option as well.

----- S Line packages will be available on the 3.2 V6 models

----- The Premium package will include the memory seats, dimming mirror, info display & seat storage trays. No need to order a convience package anymore. Also, every car should have heated front seats as a part of the base package, so no need to order cold weather unless you need rear heated seat as well.

No word on pricing, yet. Very good changes, IMO. Apparently, Audi is paying attention to customers and dealers alike and taking a page from the Japanese luxury brands that are cutting down on too many indiviual options.

jeqq · April 2005

Nice car but I like my Audi better. The gear ratio is weird on the M35. Downshift from 4th to 3rd to slow the car and the tach jumps up 1500 rpm's. There is very little power steering boost when stationary. The seats have Infiniti stitched on them - very tacky. The engine makes a lot of noise in regular street driving. The A6 makes less noise and gets louder when you push it, the M35 always makes noise. Transmission not as smooth as A6, also noisy. Torque going uphill not as good as A6. Feels less roomy than A6. Trunk not as deep. Nav map display not as nice looking but does have "birds eye" view (graphics look like your flying in overhead).

Flip side: Nice toys. Backup camera - which BTW would be nice if it worked while you are in drive, you can see cars behind in your blind spots. Rear DVD screen option. Rear seats recline!!! Nice handling - when driving the car feels very balanced. Nice suspension - better than A6 on rough road and potholes - feels more isolated and less noise on those potholes and rough roads. Good visibility out of windshield and you can see the front fenders, Audi rounds them out. Audi A-pillars sometimes get in the way; there are times I have to peek around them when making turns. I didn't notice the pillars in the M35. I didn't have time to play with the other toys, but the options are there and will keep you entertained.

Overall: The car does not have the sophisticated feel that the A6 has. The engine and trannie are not as sophisticated and not as smooth. Noise levels from engine and trannie much louder. The interior is nice but A6 feels richer - A6's interior is more appealing to the eye. It's weird even though the specs say it's faster, the A6 3.2 felt just as fast and sometimes even faster and stronger than the M35. The A6 has a more solid and heavier feel. It is somewhat better built and higher quality materials are used for the amenities.

I'm glad I drove it. I have to say that driving the M35 was fun, but the A6 is more fun. The A6 is the better car for me.

markcincinnati · April 2005

I received an email copy of this post from another frequent reader/poster, and someone who has had two Audi 4.2 equipped cars in a row. He asked for my input, since he knew I just decided after 27 Audis to go with the Infiniti.

Before I start, I think the most important words were -- "The A6 is the better car for me."

I urge you to test drive, multiple times, the M35X (and the Audi A6) -- and make certain the one you test has the Technology Package on it (unless for some reason you have no interest in the content that is bundled with the Technology and Journey packages (Journey "automatically" comes with Technology).)

If you are considering an Audi A6, I can only assume knowing you have had at least two Audis with the 4.2 engine that you MAY be considering an A6 4.2. If this is correct or incorrect you should know that the M35X with its 280HP engine with 270 ft pounds of torque would have to be placed mid way between the A6 3.2 and 4.2 in terms of performance. To me, it is actually closer to the A6 4.2 in feel. The A6 4.2 still, to this day, beats everybody for sound under full throttle acceleration IMHO.

On the other hand, the M35X sounds better, by far, than my allroad 2.7T with manual and stock pipes, mufflers, etc.

The M35X is very quiet. In fact it is so quiet that my wife called it an isolation chamber -- her words "this is really nice, very powerful, very comfortable, but too cushy for me."

As you may have noted from my posts she has gone from 3 Audi TT coupe quattro's in a row to an all optioned BMW X3 3.0 stick shift with Premium, Sport Suspension and Cold Weather package (not to mention sat nav, and all the upgrades that $47,000 in an X3 can get you.) Her definition, then, of "cushy" may not be what most people would consider normal. She thinks the X3 sport is not at all stiff -- of the reviews of the X3, the main repeated criticism has been that it is "harsh" or at least "very firm." Let your butt and back and fillings decide. The Infiniti is not cushy, if you ask me.

Now, I will tell you, that the Audi A6 and the Infiniti M35X were my two finalists -- and I would be hard pressed to say too much about one of these cars that would be said at the expense of the other. Indeed, neither car is perfect, of course. Moreover, most of my posts and rants and raves "against" Audi were for what I perceived to be "Marketing" blunders. The sales tape tells the tale overall -- not my impressions. Apparently, the A6 has done pretty well, but all things considered the BMW 5, the Infiniti and Lexus competition does outsell the Audi. The Audi outsells the Acura RL, FWIW.

Frankly, I've never much cared for the statistical pitch, I only mention it because it is out there and it is "objective."

If someone today, denied me the right to acquire the M35X and said "Mark, you have to take the A6 3.2," I would hardly lament this unlikely turn of events. I would be very peeved however if I had to pay what is, even today, the lease price for 36 months, 15,000 miles per year for the A6 when it has been contented to the level of the M35X with the Technology/Journey package set up. The MSRP on my M35X is $50,240. I got $2,000 off the sticker. The monthly payment for 39 months (yes, 39) is $677 including tax, I put no money down. The Audi payment begins with an "8" and actually goes UP if I configure it for 39 months.

I chose the 39 month option on the Infiniti for two reasons (not the $30 per month difference): #1, The bumper to bumper warranty on the Infiniti is 60,000 miles. The Audi is 50,000 miles. The powertrain warranty on the Infiniti is 70,000 miles. The Audi is 50,000 miles. #2, Based on the way that I acquire cars (which is to say, I start shopping about 6+ months out, maybe casual shopping even earlier) I will start looking for a car about 33 months from July/August 2005 (which is when my M35X should arrive from Japan) -- and order a car about 35 or 36 months from that time. I will still be in warranty with the Infiniti. I would not be with the Audi. I may have "wider" choices with this Infiniti permitted time frame -- I say permitted, because as I have said before, "I will not run bare (without a warranty)" -- I don't care what country the car comes from. I have no delusions that a broken Infiniti will be any less breathtakingly expensive to fix than a broken Audi. I also believe all things mechanical/electrical will, eventually, break. Lexusguy and CDPinhead may pick on the Germans (especially Audi) but I still refuse to believe that a prudent person would run a $50,000+ car beyond some kind of warranty (assuming I was leasing from new, etc.)

The Audi does include the Audi Advantage. The Infiniti requires oil changes every 7,500 miles, they are not included in the price of the car. The first set of replacement spark plugs, as I recall, for the Infiniti is at 105,000 miles. Another company president with whom I serve on a CEO Roundtable with has had numerous Infinitis and he claims they have all been 100% trouble free. Much as I love my Audis, I cannot say the same thing -- after 27 of them, I know the routine.

The Audi transmission has tip-lag. For all I know the Infiniti transmission may also have a similar condition. I could NOT make it happen in the Infiniti and regrettably, I could force the new A6 into tip-lag mode after only 6 or 7 miles of stop and go in-town driving. The Infiniti transmission does something called "rev-matching" -- almost as if it were a manual, or dare I compare, a DSG -- when you down shift. This makes the car smoothly go into a lower gear since the electronics raise the engine RPM's to the correct matching level when a lower gear is selected. Nice.

I wish the Infiniti had a 6 speed auto. Heck, I wish it offered a stick shift.

The Audi interior is a 9.9 on a scale of 1-10. The Infiniti, is a solid 9, however. I dunno if the Infiniti logo in the seat bothers me or not -- I knew it was there, and I never really thought about it much. I have seen some of the Audis on my dealer's show room floor with Recaro engraved in the seats and one had a custom made set of head rest covers with the four interlocking rings embossed on it. I have seen the Audi ringed floor mats, too. I kinda like the fact that when I open the door of my Audi I see a bright shiny "allroad" on the door sill. To each his own. Suffice it to say, I have never seen a better interior than in "an" Audi -- the new A6 is no exception. The Infiniti is not slumming, however.

The Infiniti is the closest thing to a German car I have ever driven that is NOT a German car. Indeed, the M35X since it is better balanced than the Audi A6 would require me to urge you to test the M35X vs an A6 equipped with the sport suspension option "to be fair." The Infiniti has less "dive" and "roll" when it goes into a corner hard than the Audi.

The Audi is very very quiet -- but there is some tire noise. . .

markcincinnati · April 2005

The Audi is very very quiet -- but there is some tire noise. The Infiniti is also quite quiet too, I did not notice road noise as much. The engine in the Infiniti under part throttle is louder, but it does make a pleasant sound. Only under full throttle does the Audi's engine make itself really known audibly -- and like I said there is NO sweeter sound than the Audi 4.2. The A6 3.2 does not sound bad, it just doesn't sound as authoritative or "basso-profundo." The M35X is More "basso-profundo." This may or may not be a good thing. I mean neither to praise nor criticize. If I had my magic wand, all engines would sound like the Audi 4.2.

The M35X seems much quicker than the A6 3.2 -- significantly quicker. Neither one is a slouch -- but for me, coming from 3 Audi V8's and one 2.7T in a row, the new A6 3.2 is "sluggish" -- but please take that remark in context. The A6 3.2 without the previous reference points could hardly be called a slug. It is however less "urgent" feeling under full throttle than the M35X -- but look at the HP and Torque differences vs the weight and weight distribution and final drive ratios and it is only logical.

If the M35X is unreliable, poorly screwed and welded together, only time will tell. I have no evidence that it is anything less than capable of being compared with/to the A6 in this regard -- in fact the anti-German, anti-Audi crowd can cite chapter and verse the Infinti's superior reliability records till the cows come home.

The A6 is slightly bigger in feel in the back seat. The Audi, IMHO, is prettier from the front; the Infiniti is better looking from the back (I don't care for the plain look of the A6 -- not that that would make me stay away, the Infiniti has that Japanese "cautious" look as if they are not quite confident enough to make something original -- although the Infiniti G and M do seem to me a tiny bit more original than say, the Acura or even many of the Lexus offerings -- I do like the profile of the GS300 though.)

My primary reason for buying the M35X was the "entire package" proposition -- not any one glaring issue against the A6. I am only trying to impress me (and maybe my wife) -- I would be impressed with either the Audi A6 or the Infiniti M35X (equally) -- I think the M35X will be, mainly because of its higher power and better weight distribution (balance, i.e.) more fun to drive. I think the Audi would be more fun to look at.

I will, I presume, get used to the differences in the Japanese vs the German approach which is with the M35X the most narrow I have ever seen -- in a word, this new Infiniti is a big step toward the current German/European genre (especially as personified by Audi). The Interior is somewhat Audi-like (more high style and high tech than the other Germans) not so much BMW like. The drive/performance is more BMW like than Audi like due again to the weight distribution and PERHAPS the RWD biased All-Wheel-Drive of the Infiniti.

I am a human being who, like everyone else probably, wishes to "justify" what I have done -- however, unlike the post you included -- I am not willing to tear down what remains, to this day, my favorite brand of automobile -- Audi.

I close the same way I opened. Test drive both cars on the same route, same everything you can muster -- and also take your current car over the same route multiple times for yet a further "reference" or "control" measure.

Oh, yea -- the Sound System in the Infiniti with the Technology package is second only to the Acura TL system in terms of quality (especially DVD-Audio) -- the Audi sound system is very good too -- but it is not quite up to the sound standards of Acura or Infiniti (if that kind of thing matters to you.)

The voice commands in the Infiniti worked on my test drives flawlessly -- the Audis I tested did not have this feature, so I cannot compare. I have On*star in my allroad and the command choices are different but equally effective -- I don't know who has the best voice response. The rear backup camera in the Infiniti is pretty nice, but there is no Parktronic, which I love in my allroad.

I think that is about all I can come up with on the spur of the moment.

Test drive, test drive, test drive.

Keep in touch.

Hope this helps.

liferules · April 2005

Mark,

Could you please be a little more detailed in your feelings about the M35 vs. A6? Sometimes your answers are a little cryptic!

markcincinnati · April 2005

I know, I know, as Mark Twain said (I think it was Twain), "I didn't have time to write a short letter, so I wrote a long one instead."

I wanted to address the review of the M and not trash either car. I guess I could have said, ". . .due to a long and pleasurable experience with the Audi brand, I would choose the Audi over the Infiniti for even money." Since this pricing scheme is currently not on the table, I chose the M on the "value proposition" alone. The differences between the A6 and M, while real and often quantifiable, do not particularly favor one versus the other for me. That being said the M's content is high and its TOC for about 3 years is lower than the A6. At similar price points (thinking of leasing) the decision would be entirely subjective (for me) and would have gone otherwise at the point in time that I made the decision to commit.

These are two fine cars -- they are close enough to each other to both be legitimate candidates for the LPS shopper.

There, perhaps that is what I should'a said.

jeqq · April 2005

in The Merchant of Venice "the bitterness of poor quality long outlasts the sweetness of low price".

Look I'm not saying the M35x is a poorly built car, it's just a cut below an Audi.

Sounds like buyers remorse to me.

Sorry I couldn't make this as long winded as your previous...make that three previous posts:)

chef_jmr · April 2005

"Audi will simplify it's packages and make it easier for customers and dealers alike.

----- A Technology Package will be offered that will bundle Navigation, Voice Activation, Parktronic, and Advanced Key all together. The DVD Nav will still be offered as a stand alone option as well.

----- S Line packages will be available on the 3.2 V6 models

----- The Premium package will include the memory seats, dimming mirror, info display & seat storage trays. No need to order a convience package anymore. Also, every car should have heated front seats as a part of the base package, so no need to order cold weather unless you need rear heated seat as well. "

Can anyone confirm this?

I would be very interested in waiting for the S-line 3.2 to show up in dealerships, same with the possibility of simplified packages...lease price reduction, please?

bargamon1 · April 2005

I have read your posts for weeks now and sympathize your plight.

Your long pontifications of value vs. content describe a man whose soul is divided.

The enormity of your deductive reasoning are epic in its self importance.

Dude, you bought a car, nothing more, nothing less. You were personally affronted by the lack of response from Audi. You gave them the best years of your life, and they could not match your lease perameters. Yet at the same time, you jumped with three months to go you got fixated on "painted spoiler" and would have got bling wheels if they had it.

Value would have been in a 4.2 allroad for less than your paying now, or another left over A6. But you needed to make a statement. When Mr. Audi tools around in the pimped out Datson it will be all the talk! The attention will be enourmous! If Infiniti is smart, they should do a whole docudrama based on your monumental lifestyle change. I think some have had sex change operations with less deliberation than your well documented defection of auto branding.

And yet, I find myself attracted to your story, the skill of your writing, and the effort it took to construct it. Its become like the "Truman Show". That was a movie with Jim Carey whose whole life was a TV show.

Mark in Cincy lease's a car, and the whole world tunes in to watch.

Thanks for the updates! I look forward to you honest reports about your purchase. And I hope there are no summer lease specials from Audi to distort your pleasure!

markcincinnati · April 2005

I am completely in tune with your analysis, save for the painted spoiler and bling wheels comment/observation. As far as I know, there is an all chrome (bling?) option for wheels, I have never had chrome wheels and have previously even de-badged my cars which I assume has the effect of making them less identifiable to those not in the know with the brand.

And what is the "pimped out Datsun" statement supposed to mean -- I got the same comment when I took my Audi in for a Jiffy Lube oil change once when I needed a change and I couldn't get to a dealer when the Jiffy Lube manager said that Audis were pimped out VW's -- how about "cousin" or "sister company" or something a little bit less uh, derogatory? Unless "pimped out" is a good thing!?

I don't have remorse either. Well, my "remorse" is not being able to afford both cars at the same time to really get obsessive with my obsession with cars (Audis in particular).

I'm also picking up on some recent subtle digs at Audi from the automotive press. The new Car and Driver magazine arrived yesterday and there is a test report of the new Audi A4 2.0T. The report/review is, I think, able to be read from start to near finish as a compliment to the new A4. Then, just when you think the story is going to end "and they lived happily ever after," the author discusses the sticker (which was over $35,000 for the 2.0T without some of the more and more popular near lux items, like sat nav, etc.). The spirit of the comment was that this car would be "the bomb" for $30,000 -- perhaps the statement was "no brainer." Then this was followed with a comment that for this much money plus money in your pocket you could have a Subaru -- I don't know whether to

or to be :confuse: .

Audis of late seem to be getting such mixed reviews -- something like "great cars (if they were about 10 - 15% less)."

Yet, last month, C&D tests the LPS segment ($55,000 or so) and "on paper" the A6 would appear to be a very high value (European) in that it could be had within the price range parameters of the review with a V8 -- BMW and Mercedes so equipped would have been thousands more, for example. Yet the Germans can't even muster any car in C&D's top 3 LPS lineups. Audis A6 4.2 couldn't better the Acura? What's up with that?

The messages I receive from the regular and frequent posters here on ETH, too, are mixed -- the "pro-Japanese-car" contingent because they claim their cars can be driven other places than to the dealer for another "fill in the blank" service call; and, the pro-German or more broadly pro-European contingent because they claim "Lexus ain't got no soul" (or words to that effect).

I'm not even including the pro-Conusmer reports consumers, since I just can't relate to the Mr. Data or Vulcan "emotionless" automobile evaluations.

Anyway, if this has provided any entertainment or infotainment of any kind to anyone who reads this and responds to this -- that is all well and good. Frankly it has been very "infotaining" for me and cathartic as well.

And, of course I will be giving regular updates on both the new X3 and the new M35X.

bargamon1 · April 2005

Another masterpiece of automovive obsession!

Epic!

I hear you!

richcream · April 2005

"the bitterness of poor quality long outlasts the sweetness of low price".

REFERENCE: Audi A6: Owners Problems and Solutions Board

It would appear that if the 2005 A6 is a consistently reliable machine, it would be the first.

If not, do you happen to know a Shakespearian quote dealing with the "bitterness of poor quality and high price"? :P

*NOTE*: Where'd the original post I responded to go....that's no fun.

markcincinnati · April 2005

I agree with your comment: "It would appear that if the 2005 A6 is a consistently reliable machine, it would be the first." In part I am confused by the previous comment wherein jeqq said he thought the Infiniti was a notch below the Audi.

Man o' man, I can't believe what I'm about to say -- for perhaps a year ago, it would've been my keyboard that "uttered" that sentiment. I like my crow roasted.

Now, I do not think the Audi is "below" the Infiniti -- I haven't made that leap; but, I do think the Infiniti can "stand shoulder to shoulder" with the Audi.

Over on the LPS board, the howls in protest, sarcasm or derision would be manifold, "ha ha, Mark, the Infiniti will be able to drive by the Audi dealer where the Audi will be regularly and frequently for service" and so on.

I look at the A6 and M35X more or less as equivalent cars in almost every sense of the word -- not identical twins, but "twin sons of different mothers" perhaps.

Opinions, all opinions. Probably (from all of us) not worth the paper they've been written on (figuratively of course). But as they say, perception is reality.

I perceive the two cars as stated.

Your milage may differ.

purplem46 · April 2005

I have no issues with your post, however you state:

"The gear ratio is weird on the M35. Downshift from 4th to 3rd to slow the car and the tach jumps up 1500 rpm's."

That is called "rev matching" and is a welcome and rare addition to manually shifted slushboxes. It duplicates the heel-toe maneuver used in a standard transmission and the effect is to keep the power band at the sweet spot when re-engaging the throttle. If your downshifting in order to engine brake on an automatic tranny, you might want to re-think the wear caused on it versus the wear on brakes. I think replacing brakes will be much less expensive in the long run.

markcincinnati · April 2005

To reiterate:

"The Audi transmission has tip-lag. For all I know the Infiniti transmission may also have a similar condition. I could NOT make it happen in the Infiniti and regrettably, I could force the new A6 into tip-lag mode after only 6 or 7 miles of stop and go in-town driving. The Infiniti transmission does something called "rev-matching" -- almost as if it were a manual, or dare I compare, a DSG -- when you down shift. This makes the car smoothly go into a lower gear since the electronics raise the engine RPM's to the correct matching level when a lower gear is selected. Nice."

Rev matching is a "good thing!"

purplem46 · April 2005

Oh, sorry. I'm afraid I didn't make it through your entire post to pick out that section. Now that I have, could I ask what a DSG is? Is that similar to BMW's SMG?

And yes, rev matching is desirable.

gregaudia6 · April 2005

'Pimped Out' - is a good thing -

ivan_99 · April 2005

DSG is the greatest thing since sliced bread

It works similar to SMG except it has TWO clutches. When first gear is engaged it pre-selects the second gear in anticipation of a shift. When you shift to second gear it is virtually instantaneous...something like .0x of a second. Then it will get third gear pre-selected.

It is supposed to give better acceleration than a manual and better mileage. When left in auto mode it is supposed to shift as smooth or smoother than the best auto trannies.

I think it is only available, currently, on transverse mounted engines i.e. TT, A3, VW sedans (other than Phaeton) etc.

jeqq · April 2005

I didn't realize I would create such a stir on the Audi A6 forum. From the uproar you'd think I posted on the Infiniti M forum page - go figure?

So the following is in response to some of the rebuttals voiced above.

I thought I wrote a pretty objective review of the car, and I am sure many were appreciative of this. Those were are my observations about the M35x To quote the Infiniti sales rep who went along on my test drive. "Now that I see what a good driver you are, may I ask is this what you do for a living or is there something else that you do. I don't think he thought I was a cab driver and I don't think he thought I worked for a car magazine. The point is I know how to test drive a car and passengers feel secure with me in the drivers seat. This guy goes on many test drives and he saw I knew what I was doing.

I've driven tiptronics for years and often use the tip's gearing for holding speed or as an assist to brake the car. Tips are specifically made for the purpose of up and down shifting, so I dont understand the comment from Purplem46 about downshifting. The 05 A6's gear ratios in my opinion are better than the M35x. For light braking or holding speed one shift down does the trick, for more you shift down another. A downshift in the M felt much more stressful on the engine and the noise level went way up. I do not get that response from my A6. Don't forget the A6 has six speeds vs. M's 5 and at 60 MPH the A6 does 1900 RPM's. I'll defer to others on the Ms 60 RPM specs. These factors contribute to the A6's silky smooth engine/ transmission feel, the Ms did not feel as smooth to me. My 5 speed 01 A6 2.7t also shifted up and down admirably, but the new 6 speed trannie is even better.

My A6 has no tip lag whatsoever. I repeat NONE whatsoever. I had two previous Audi's and I know exactly what tip/turbo lag is all about. Im amazed when you consistently state there is tip lag. My car does not have it.

Ive also had an Audi lemonized and Ive also had an Audi that in 43 months never had an issue except for a broken Nav button that lost its clickety-clack.

Ive also had a 40,000lb garbage truck hit me and push me sideways up on a 4½-foot cement highway divider. I had to egress from the vehicle through the sunroof. When the cops and fireman came they could not stop admiring the car. They also could not believe the strength of the car. They see accidents all the time and were amazed by the cars safety crash features. Even more amazing was the cars ability to drive unassisted off the highway onto a service road with the passenger door and fender ripped off. That car saved my life and limbs. While being push sideways the car fought back with all four wheels grabbing at the road. Audi created a car that withstood the force of 40,000lbs plus. I have to assume most cars would have crumpled up and pin the occupants. I walked away without a scratch and BTW it was a zero payout from my insurance. I was found to be a zero fault. I dont feel that sense of security sitting in other cars i.e. the M. The new A6 feels even tankier than the older versions when it comes to safety. (BTW I never sat in a Hummer:)

Lastly, my lease deal was far better than the quotes you got. You need to sharpen your bargaining skills:) Bargamon admonished you for not having patience and good market timing. In the end a difference of 5% on a $50,000 purchase or on a 3yr. lease would not have swayed me in favor of the better deal. As you said if the Audi was slightly more or the same as the M, you would have gone for the A6.

Im going to stop now. Ill be happy to continue this discussion.

Marc, Ill leave you with this thought, another quote from the Bard.

"Tis better to be brief than tedious"

purplem46 · April 2005

RE: Tips are specifically made for the purpose of up and down shifting, so I dont understand the comment from Purplem46 about downshifting

Yes, they are made for shifting up and down. Downshifting is normally used for quick acceleration. My point is, if you downshift for purposes of engine braking, it is hard on the transmission. It is cheaper (in the long run) to use your brakes. Is that not how you read my post?

jeqq · April 2005

I have to agree with you. Downshifts definitely strain the M35x but the Audi handles it real fine:)

markcincinnati · May 2005

I am not anti-Audi, or anti-Audi's new A6. I am disappointed with Audis go to market strategy insofar as it apparently affected me with respect to the "value proposition" or TOC (total ownership cost -- and based on the Business Week article I was interviewed for, NOT alone in this regard). Indeed despite my newfound affection for the Infiniti M35X, I would have paid [a little bit] more for the Audi comparably equipped.

My first NON stick Audi was a 1997 A8, followed by a 1999 A6 2.8, a 2000 A6 4.2 and a 2001 A6 4.2 sport -- I currently have a 2003 allroad 2.7T 6 speed manual. Every one of these wonderful Audis was in some way superior to the one that preceded it. With the exception of the 2003 allroad, every one of the Audi automatics had some kind of hesitation -- it felt like turbo lag, severe turbo lag, Saab Aero turbo lag, in fact. Yet three of the four automatics were V8's, normally aspirated 300HP V8's.

I replaced my 1995 Audi S6 with a 1997 A8 -- imagine my disbelief in going from a sub $50,000 car to an above $70,000 car with this "hesitation."

I test drove both the new A6 3.2 and 4.2. I did not notice the tip lag in the 4.2, but unfortunately it could be induced in the 3.2 within a few miles.

As a member of the quattro club, I receive the quattro quarterly, this "tip lag" is common, so common it would not be beyond the pale to read about a class action of some sort to attempt to find a cure for this problem.

Even the technical editor of this publication says the tip lag problem is a regular and frequent complaint of Audi owners. Of course, this tip lag is, unfortunately, the way the transmission has been designed and programmed, so not technically a bug in the software that controls the response of the transmission.

Most of us simply reset the computer every time we started the car by flooring the accelerator pedal with the ignition on and the engine off (search for the precise procedure if this becomes an issue).

If you do not have or have not noticed tip lag -- you are indeed fortunate.

I have stated both my wish for the A6 to be offered with either DSG or manual instead of or in addition to the tip. Regardless of tip lag or no tip lag, my fondness for Audis in general would have overcome any minor issue I might have with the transmission or the lower urge that the 3.2 offers over the outgoing 2.7T S-Line A6.

I just "got educated" here on edmunds and elsewhere. The education I received led me down "the road more difficult" (with apologies to Frost) -- for it was always my intent to make the new A6 my 28th Audi.

I still hold the opinion that -- TODAY -- the A6 and Infiniti M35X were my two final choices. They were very close.

The Automotive Press with the exception of Automobile Magazine fundamentally doesn't put either Audi or BMW in its top three (out of 7 or 8 LPS cars) -- which blows my mind especially since they include both Lexus GS and Acura RL models -- cars that have often been said to "have everything except [driving] passion or soul." At least the Infiniti has been repeatedly praised as being "near German" in feel and performance.

I may have settled -- I don't think so.

Moreover, I do not think the A6 buyer settled either.

In some respects the new A6, BMW 530xi and Infiniti M35X (pick two) are "twin sons of different mothers."

I hope you never have tip lag -- it is sooo annoying at this price point to have to put up with that.

merc1 · May 2005

Ive also had a 40,000lb garbage truck hit me and push me sideways up on a 4½-foot cement highway divider. I had to egress from the vehicle through the sunroof. When the cops and fireman came they could not stop admiring the car. They also could not believe the strength of the car. They see accidents all the time and were amazed by the cars safety crash features. Even more amazing was the cars ability to drive unassisted off the highway onto a service road with the passenger door and fender ripped off. That car saved my life and limbs. While being push sideways the car fought back with all four wheels grabbing at the road. Audi created a car that withstood the force of 40,000lbs plus. I have to assume most cars would have crumpled up and pin the occupants. I walked away without a scratch and BTW it was a zero payout from my insurance. I was found to be a zero fault. I dont feel that sense of security sitting in other cars i.e. the M. The new A6 feels even tankier than the older versions when it comes to safety. (BTW I never sat in a Hummer:)

Sounds like a hell of an accident. Got any pics?

M

jeqq · May 2005

LOL, I should have taken some but I didn't. It looked like the car had a giant can- opener taken to it. Can you believe the car had only 1,000 miles on it?

jeqq · May 2005

Mark, you and I are looking for perfection which never or rarely exists (at least in our lowly price point:). At $48,000 I still had to make some compromises. Both cars have their pluses and minuses. Put our two heads together and of course the rest of the gang and we would come real close to creating that perfect car.

The M is a good choice and will bring you much admiration from others on the road. A much better choice than the 300C AWD. Don't you agree?

markcincinnati · May 2005

I agree completely.

I also, in the spirit of full disclosure, did not get to drive the 300C AWD "on the highway" -- still the 300C seems like a heck of a lot of car for the money.

In fact I think the 300C is so much of a bargain (in this context), that I think a test report, side by side, of the new Cadillac STS AWD and a fully optioned Chrysler 300C AWD would be an interesting and perhaps embarrassing (for the Cadillac) article.

Upcoming announcements about the Audi A6 (asymmetrical AWD for example), more HP and torque, S-Line availability, etc, are certainly tempting -- I will be in the market in another 36 months.

tomleone1 · May 2005

I am strongly considering purchasing an A6 3.2. I presently own a '98 Volvo S70 and the seats are without question the most comfortable I have ever felt. As far as the Audi goes should I consider getting the sports seats with the extra bolstering for increase comfort? I think the stock seats are just ok.

chef_jmr · May 2005

I have finally decided on the A6 3.2 as my next car purchase. Hopefully by that time, the rumors of the S-line 3.2 and newer quattro will be available (not deal breakers).

I contacted Audi USA and was told there is no European Delivery program at this time through Audi, NA. My plan was to order and pick-up the car sometime this Fall/Winter, vacation, visit relatives, etc...

Does anyone know of a third-party company that can set-up a delivery? I remember the "Gray market" was hot in the '80s... BMW's program seems so beneficial and streamlined. Might have to test-drive the 530xi and change my mind, again. Any experiences?

Also, can someone point me in the direction of the mill where they are gathering these rumors? I need to know!

Thanks. Also, I would like to thank markincincinnati for all his great insights and suggestions!!!

wbreaux1 · May 2005

My wife has a 2002 A6 3.0. While the trunk is good, it is narrow. You cannot put a set of golf clubs in there. The only way to do it is to take the woods out, put the bag in, then put the woods on top.

I am seriously considering a 2005 A6 4.2. I rarely drive my wife's car so this is not much of a problem. I looked in the trunk of an '05 today and it looks like the same situation; good overall size but narrow. I did notice the rear seat folds down, so I imagine I could put a golf bag in like that. I'll give the car the golf bag test before buying, but can anyone comment?

bdkinnh · May 2005

Mark,

I test drove an A4 a while ago, and when I was talking to the salesman I brought up the issue of acceleration lag. He told me that it was due to the fact that Audis have three differentials for the AWD system, and it takes time for power to go through them all.

Sounded like BS to me, but I have to admit I don't know cars all that well. Sounded like he was trying to turn a negative into a positive. Also, if the engine had started to distribute the power, you would at least hear _something_ before the car moved. With the A4 (and A6 as well), there was nothing - just silence until the car realized that you did, in fact, wish to move forward.

chef_jmr · May 2005

When I took a look into the trunk of the A6 I was impressed at it's cavernous size. I would be surprised if you could not fit your clubs in without having to put the rear seats down. (I even commented that one could put at least two adult-sized bodies in there, if one was so inclined -- read: Tony Soprano, not me). I couldn't find it, but I swear I've seen photos from a car review online that showed a couple of golf bags in that trunk.

BTW, it's opening is much larger than the Lexus GS300 I also test drove, and the BMW 530i I walked around.

merc1 · May 2005

Yeah its always tragic when a newbuilt gets killed off so early.

M

Audi A6

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