Lexus IS 300

kyfdx · November 2004

C&D picked the IS300 over the 325i?

riez · November 2004

kyfdx... Of course not. C&D preferred the much more expensive 325i. Scales tipped by their subjective preferences on things like ride quality. Like that was a surprise?

But at least the IS300 had a "fair" fight with its most significant competitor, which is the 325i and NOT the 330i. Readers could make up their own minds based on the results and pricing.

And to be "fair" to C&D, the G35 and TL used their outstanding power to come in 1st and 3rd, respectively. By 2004, both the IS and 325i are down on power.

kyfdx · November 2004

I've only driven the automatic version of the IS300, and I have an automatic 325i... I have driven manual 325s...

My own subjective opinion is that in automatic form, the IS300 is quite a bit quicker than the 325i.. I guess that evens out with the manual.. must be the gearing..

But, I have to agree with C&D.. I prefer the total package of the 325i to the IS300.. Although I like the IS300 a lot more than most reviewers.. I like the "chronograph" gauges and the interior..

regards,
kyfdx

riez · November 2004

Having owned an '00 323ia and three ISs (two sedans and a SportCross), I don't see too much difference between the cars themselves (though I wish the IS sedan had the space-saving multi-link trunk hinges), but I see a huge price, standard equipment/value, and warranty difference in favor of the IS and a huge "free" maintenance difference in favor of the BMW. I think overall, the IS is the much better value/bargain!

kyfdx · November 2004

Well.. I was looking at it more as which is "better", not withstanding value.. BMWs are rarely, if ever a "better value".

I thought the Lexus warranty was 4/50 just like BMW?

I agree about the "free" maintenance.. A lot of people "pooh-pooh" it.. but, if you ever had a luxury import dealer put brakes on your car.... Or even if you've paid for an $80 oil change.. It is a big deal..

I like the IS300... Besides, if you want a rear-wheel drive, small sport sedan, how many choices do you have?

riez · November 2004

The Lexus bumper-to-bumper warranty is 4/50, same as BMW, but then Lexus also has a 6/70 powertrain warranty. Lexus corrosion perforation is 6/unlimited.

And you can buy a bumper-to-bumper extended warranty direct from Lexus. I've extended my '04 IS out to 7/100; paid $1,625 at time of purchase (and financed at low LFS interest rate as part of overall sale).

While I've heard BMW might (is?) offering extension to original warranty, I haven't confirmed it. Do you know if you can buy a b-to-b extension? If so, wonder how much it is on 3 Series? I do know BMW will sell you an extension on the "maintenance".

Both Lexus and BMW have CPO programs for used cars. BMWs adds 2/50. Lexus adds 3/50.

Lexus dealers provider loaner cars. Most (nearly all?) BMW dealers will, but only if you buy the car from them.

kyfdx · November 2004

BMW is now selling the warranty extension.. but, only to original owners or lessees.. I think it is $2249 and mimics the coverage of the CPO warranty... And, of course, anyone can buy the maintenance program extension.. as long as the current one hasn't expired.. It is $995 to go from 4/50 to 6/100.

Those prices are for RWD 3-series.. Other models are higher.

Loaners are a pain.. the dealer that services my car will provide one, even though I didn't buy there, but the lead time for one makes it a moot point..

regards,
kyfdx

riez · November 2004

kyfdx... Forgot to mention two other factors:

1. Reliability: Lexus and the IS are the gold standard of reliability. Just compare 3 Series to IS in places like Consumer Reports or JD Powers.

2. Safety: Both the IS and 3 Series have done well with both NHTSA and IIHS crash test results.

And if it means anything, the Lexus dealerships are normally nicer than the BMW ones (at least in my area). The Lexus ones are dedicated to the marque; in my area the BMW dealers are tied to other marques (e.g., the BMW dealer in Omaha NE is next to the Ford dealer and has a parking mess, the ones in Lincoln NE and Des Moines IA also sell marques like MB).

So adding these two factors to the rest of the performance, price, value mix, warranty, and service mix, the IS still is heads and shoulders above the 325i.

kyfdx · November 2004

Yeah.. In general, I agree with you about reliability and service issues.. However, anecdotally, my 325i has been pretty much worry-free...

And, my local dealer is BMW/MINI only... and it is their only dealership.. It was started in the late '70s.. and still has the original owner.. For the first ten years, he was also the service manager!!

All of those things might put Lexus ahead of BMW, but it still doesn't make the IS300 a better car to drive than a 325i. If you want the best, sometimes you have to make sacrifices.. The drive is what counts (he says while tooling home in his Honda CR-V).

regards,
kyfdx

riez · November 2004

kyfdx... I completely concur: If you want the best, sometimes you have to make sacrifices.. The drive is what counts (I say while tooling home in my IS300 sedan and looking at my wife's IS300 SportCross in the driveway).

Fortunately, if you want a small all around serious sport sedan, the IS300 can't be beat. Esp. if you get the 5-speed manual and LSD!

riez · November 2004

If you want to see the importance of gearing check out some of the published comparison results. Here are two:

R&T, April 2001: BMW 330i vs IS300 (both automatics)

Final Drive: 3.46 vs 3.909
1st/Overall/Max MPH: 3.67/12.7/37 vs 3.36/13.13/35
2nd: 2.00/6.92/67 vs 2.18/8.52/54
3rd: 1.41/4.88/96 vs 1.42/5.55/83
4th: 1.00/3.46/128(l) vs 1.00/3.90/118
5th: .74/2.56/128(l) vs .75/2.93/143(l)
Engine RPM in top gear 60 mph: 2000 vs 2500
EPA MPG: 19/27 vs 18/23

where (l)= electronically limited

NOTICE HOW THE IS CAN"T GET TO 60 MPH UNTIL IT GETS TO THIRD GEAR. THAT CRIPPLES THE 0-60 MPH TIME!

C&D, March 2004: 325i vs IS300, both manuals

Final Drive: 3.15 vs 3.727
1st: 4.23/13.32 vs 3.57/13.31
2nd: 2.52/7.94 vs 2.06/7.68
3rd: 1.66/5.23 vs 1.38/5.14
4th: 1.22/3.83 vs 1.00/3.73
5th: 1.00/3.15 vs .85/3.17
EPA MPG: 20/29 vs 18/25

Notice how the 325i does NOT have an overdrive 5th but that the IS overdrive 5th is not as deep as in the automatic! And notice how the 330i gets same EPA highway mileage, due to overdrive.

kyfdx · November 2004

3-series are electronically limited to 128 MPH, as you show.. Owners who have had their car "chipped" to remove that limiter have been known to easily top 140MPH.

The gearing and the low gas mileage are definitely negatives to the IS300... I'm sure the next model will be better.. That is one thing it shares with the 3-series.. both are getting long in the tooth...

deanedell · November 2004

What pressure are you all running in your tires? Lexus recommends 33psi I believe, but I was wondering if increasing that to 35psi or so would improve response, etc. Thanks in advance.

riez · November 2004

deanedell... What tires are you running on? There are various tires for the IS. There are the Bridgestone RE92s, all-season, and the '40s, summer. There is also the rare 16" option.

Don't think 2 lbs will make too much difference. Put 'em in and see how it works for you on the roads you drive.

riez · November 2004

Check out the December 2004 issue of Car & Driver, Csaba Csere's "The Steering Column", p. 13. He has an interesting discussion about Toyota's recent "sludge-damaged engines" issue. Points to Toyota research that "many" of these so-called damaged engines were in leased cars with 30-40,000 miles. Looks like many never had their oil filters changed and had oil change interval problems (i.e., the leasees weren't changing their oil like they should).

Toyota also determined that owners/leasees weren't following the "severe service" intervals as needed.

An excerpt:

"So how is an owner to determine the threshold between 'normal' and 'severe' service? Toyota concluded that an owner couldn't be expected to know and has since revised its oil-change shedules for all its vehicles to 5000 miles."

riez · November 2004

Finally got around to ordering snow tires from The Tire Rack for my '04 IS300 manual sedan. Went with the Michelin Pilot Alpin PA2s for $125/tire plus Sport Edition D5 alloy wheels for $99, as part of one of their winter tire/wheel packages. Grand total, including shipping, $974.96.

Decided I wanted V-rated tires. Went with 205/50VR17s, instead of the 16 inch tires. There weren't any speed ratings above H for 215/45-17s that match the standard sedan tires.

kyfdx · November 2004

You'll be happy you went with the V-rated winter tires.. That is what I put on my 325i last year, and the dry-road handling is fantastic.. Comparable to a V-rated all-season tire.. And yet, no problems with snow-traction either..

I'm sure you give up some winter weather traction, but it is worth it considering you spend 90% of the time on dry roads.. Just put my winters back on last week...

riez · November 2004

Finally saw an L-tuned IS300. Bright blue exterior with heavily chromed wheels. (I don't care for these type "garish" wheels.) Noticed it had a couple of small black "L-tuned" logos on it. Was an automatic transmission-equipped car. Go figure.

riez · November 2004

Good to see the IS300 does get some highly positive press:

http://money.cnn.com/2004/11/08/pf/autos/cr_auto_reliability/

riez · November 2004

For those interested in (worried about?) IS300 fuel economy, here is some data from my two most recent business trips in my '04 IS300 sedan 5-speed manual and LSD:

- 27.06 mpg= 392.5 miles using 14.505 gallons.

This trip was about 59% 64 mph 2-lane county roads, 39% 74 mph interstate highways, and 2% driving in (small) city.

- 26.04 mpg= 352.4 miles using 13.534 gallons.

This trip was about 79% 74 mph interstate highway, 19% 64-mph 2-lane county roads, and 2% driving in (big) city.

For both trips, I likely used cruise control about 95%+ of the time.

I only use 92 octane Amoco (Standard) Ultimate premium.

riez · November 2004

Just came back from the Tire installer. Put about 40 miles on the Pilot Alpin PA2s. Seemed to ride and handle nicely on drive pavement. Can't wait to see how they do in snow, slush, rain, and ice.

riez · November 2004

Finished "reading" The Lexus Story, the big coffee table book put out by Lexus, by Jonathan Mahler (Melcher Media, 2004). (Bought it at Borders.)

First thing I noticed is that there wasn't much about the IS. (Though there wasn't much about the ES or GS. Mostly about the early history and the LS, SC, & RX.)

Was nice to see a photo of the IS instrument cluster as the first photo. Then nothing until a huge action photo of a bright yellow IS zooming down a county road on pages 198-199. Then just three more photos, including 2 of Team Lexus. The entire IS text is on pages 200-201 plus a small mention on page 218 about the IS in Europe:

"The best-selling Lexus in Europe is the IS 200, a smaller-displacement version of the American IS."

Book posits that the primary purpose of the IS was to bring in a new type Lexus buyer, esp. a younger one, as by 2000 average buyer age had stablized at about 50 and were weak in the coveted 35-45 age range, and to bring the concept of driving excitement back to Lexus, which had come to mean rather sedate luxury in the minds of buyers.

As with most things IS, book falls into the dreaded 330i trap:

"With a powerful inline 6 beneath the hood and Formula 1-inspired gear shifters on the steering wheel, the IS 300 was judged a worthy challenger to the BMW 330i."

Book at least honest to say:

"The sport sedan hasn't knocked the 3 Series off its perch atop its class, but it has garnered a devoted following."

riez · December 2004

After reading the following, I don't feel so bad about Lexus' maintenance schedule. We still have the 30 day initial inspection and 5,000 mile oil changes.

Technical Editor Mike Miller has some fascinating comments in the February 2005 issue of Bimmer magazine. As Mike points out in his article on manual transmission and differential fluid changes:

Pre-"free" "recommended" maintenance intervals:
- 1,200 mile break-in service
- oil changes every 3,000 miles
- automatic transmission fluid and filter change every 15,000 miles
- manual transmission fluid change every 30,000 miles
- differential fluid changed every 30,000 miles
- brake fluid chance annually
- coolant fluid changed every 2 years

Post-"free" "recommended" maintenance intervals:
- No initial break in service (except M)
- Oil and filter change around 15,000 miles
- No automatic transmission fluid or filter changes
- No manual transmisison fluid changes
- No differential fluid changes
- brake fluid changed every 2 years
- coolant fluid changed every 3 years

He also points out:

"BMW dealership technicians no long open up gearboxes and differentials for repairs. Instead, the factory fix is to buy a BMW remanufactured gearbox or differential--or automatic transmission-instead."

"No one knows exactly what BMW's proprietary ATF is, so no one knows if there are viable alternatives. We do know that BMW dealerships charge about $500 for an ATF and filter service, mainly due to the price of the ATF. That's assuming you can get them to do the job, which is often not the case."

riez · December 2004

Lexus uses a Torsen LSD in the IS.

Noticed a very small story in the 12/6/04 issue of Autoweek, actually an obituary:

"Vernon Gleasman, inventor of the Torsen differential, died Nov. 18 at the age of 92."

Got me wondering if the fact that the '05 IS300 manual can no longer be had with its Torsen LSD might have been a contributing factor, no matter how small? I love my '04 manual's Torsen LSD!

riez · December 2004

Thought it interesting that in the December 2004 issue of Roundel (BMW CCA) magazine they have a full report on the recent JD Powers APEAL survey results.

Lexus won overall (910) beating out Porsche (903), Cadillac (902), and BMW (900). And Lexus had 5 top Three finishers.

"Entry Luxury": Chrysler 300(2005), Acura TL, and (tie) LEXUS IS300 sedan/SportCross & Cadillac CTS.

Lexus Top 3 "winners": IS300, LS430, RX330, GX470, & LX470.

BMW's were 5 Series, 7 Series, X5, & Z4, plus Mini Cooper.

dl7265 · December 2004

Hello, reading this thread i don't see any mention of prone mechanical problems, only comparisons to the 3er. A relative is looking at a rather high mileage 2001 IS 300, are there any major issuses with this specific vehicle ?

any help apprecicated,

DL

jmess · December 2004

As long as it has been serviced and not abused it should be ok. It is always a good idea to have a car checked out by a good mechanic before you buy it. As with any car with higher miles you need to check out tires, brakes, suspension, exhaust, and shocks. Make sure the fluids (like radiator, brake, transmission, and rear diff) were changed at the proper time. Make sure you understand what the next major scheduled service items are and how much they will cost.

Mechanically these cars are really solid so I would feel pretty good about buying a used one if it had been well taken care off.

riez · December 2004

dl7265... jmess is absolutely right. CR, JDP, IC, etc. have all praised the IS300 for outstanding reliability.

Key for used car:

- Have a mechanic look it over and do inspect for any body damage/repairs that might indicate major accident

- Look over all the service records to make sure all maintenance was done on schedule

- Run CARFAX report

- Estimate the way the prior owner(s) drove the car: were they "hard" on it? Tire wear and length of time they got out of a set of tires is one small indicator.

- If they normally had it serviced at one Lexus dealer, ask the dealer to pull their records and see what all has been done.

dl7265 · December 2004

Thanks guys for the assistance. Like riez i owned a G20 and a 323i, over 4 years each only had one problem.

1.g20 radio died was replaced even though warranty was expired.

2.323i a/c compressor clutch froze after 1000 miles, salesman gave me his 528i to drive while waiting a month on the part from Germany.

So 1 problem for 48 month i consider pretty good.

DL

riez · December 2004

dl7265... None of my 3 ISs has had any problems. I've got about 20,000 miles on my '04 sedan. Wife has about 13,000 on her '04 SportCross. And she put about 15,000 on her previous IS300 sedan, the one she traded in for her SportCross. Not a single problem.

Have you looked into Lexus Certified Pre-owned (CPO)? Adds 3 years of warranty coverage. You pay a bit more but get the peace of mind

ponytrekker · December 2004

>>- Run CARFAX report

Yes. And really look at the Carfax report. If you see the car titled in multiple states that reeks.

dl7265 · December 2004

What qualities do you prefer of the is300 over your previous BMW's ?

Go Sooners

riez · December 2004

dl7265... I won't even begin to compare my IS300 to my former 540i6.

The IS300 is more car for the money than the 323i/325i. More standard features and better optional features (LSD). Better warranty. Better reliability. Better dealer sales and service.

But both are great all around sport sedans.

If you drive an automatic (my wife does, I don't), the the lack of torque in the 2.5L motor is apparent.

The biggest failing for the IS is the lack of a BMW-like Sport Pkg.

A base 325i manual with Sport Pkg is a wonderful car. One I highly recommend. Can't say same for a $35,000 MSRP 325i automatic with Premium Package. That one I'd avoid.

dl7265 · December 2004

I concur, $995.00 for a power seat is rediculas.My 3er was a stripper sport model.I did price some new is300 for comparison, can't say i care for 3 packages as apposed to single options.However im sure the typical Lexus customer prefers that.A leather package car was $35,600.00 Yikes....

DL

lmm · December 2004

Hi.

Does the 2002 require premium fuel? What's the gas mileage rating for this car.

I'm looking at buying a private party 2002 for 25K. It only has 13k miles and looks like it has been babied really well.

Any thoughts on this price?

kyfdx · December 2004

Yes.. premium required..

Gas mileage.. I think rated at 18/23 MPG, but you'll have to ask actual owners for their feedback..

13K miles is great, but the price is still a little stiff. For that price, you could probably get an '03 from a Lexus dealer and have a CPO warranty that would cover you for 3 years and up to 100K total vehicle mileage.

regards,

kyfdx

fredmcmurray · December 2004

$25K for a three year old IS? What would a brand new one cost? Last year you could get a new IS with the usual options for $27-28K.

lmm · December 2004

I've checked private party sales prices and 25k right in there. The low miles is a premium. By the time you buy a new one its at least 34K.

What have people really paid for a new one including taxes and licensing???

lmm · December 2004

Follow up.

I've checked the local dealer CPO stock.

They have same cars 3x mileage at $26.9K.

New cars are $34K plus tax.

So 2002 with 13k miles for $25k seems pretty good deal?????

kyfdx · December 2004

$26.9K at the dealer is an "asking" price.. I'm betting $24K at this time of year for a "selling" price, plus you are getting a warranty..

If they are asking $25K, there should be some room to move.. Obviously, they don't "need" the car, if they only put 5K miles per year on it... So, unless they want to make a planter out of it, I'm thinking $22K-$23K is a pretty fair deal all of the way around.. and thats only because of the ultra low miles.

regards,

kyfdx

fredmcmurray · December 2004

You really need to compare prices before Tax and License. T&L is going to vary a lot by state, so that's not a fair comparison.

I don't doubt that people are asking that much for used ones. I guess they must sell them to people who don't know what new ones are really going for. The dealer I bought mine from admitted that the two year old CPO car on his lot would cost me more than a brand new one with the same equipment!

I'm assuming when you say new ones are $34K, that you are talking about MSRP. Last year ISs were selling for $6K under MSRP around here and I can't imagine why they would be doing any better this year. As I said, when I was shopping, typically equipped ISs were going for $27-28K. I ended up getting a lot of options that aren't typically on the lot - Nav ($1800), Graphite wheels ($400), heated seats (S400), spoiler ($250), LSD ($400) and I got mine for $30,700.

I'm just recommending that you really see what you could get a new one for before buying a used one.

lmm · December 2004

the private seller car still has warranty. 2 years left on Bumper to Bumper Factory Warranty

and Power Train Warranty (engine & transmission) until June/2009

the 25k is firm according to the seller. No matter which price guide I check his price is in the middle.

I appreciate your feedback.

lmm · December 2004

You made some good points. I usually havent looked at used cars due to the cost so close to getting new. But I wanted to see what was out there for used cars.

Yes, I was quoting 34K as MSRP. I havent followed Lexus prices previously and wasnt aware how close to invoice they would go.

I will definitely take a hard look at new.

thanks

fredmcmurray · December 2004

Actually, last year they were selling at $800 under invoice in May and had dropped to $1300-1500 under invoice by August when I bought. And that wasn't through protracted hardball negotiations. That was just contacting the internet sales departments and getting a quote.

dl7265 · December 2004

$1500 under invoice ?MSRP is the name of the game in Dallas.If you can mention your dealer id be glad to take a nice road trip vacation and pocket 5k.

Thanks,

DL

riez · December 2004

lmm... Unless I missed it, seems like you haven't give much info on the car you are looking at, the '02. Is it automatic or manual (there is a 1 mpg highway difference in favor of the manual)? What specific options does it have? What was the original MSRP? Have you run a CarFax and looked over all the service records?

If I was you, I'd barain hard with a Lexus dealer on the sale of a new one. They might even have an '04 on the lot. You won't pay anything near MSRP if you are a serious buyer with good credit history or paying cash.

If you buy used, you should try to bargain hard with a Lexus dealer about a CPO model. The advertised price is NOT what you'll pay if you negotiate hard and know your stuff. Advertised used car price is just like MSRP, it is negotiable and only those who lack knowledge pay it.

My '04 IS300 sedan manual gets about 24-26 mpg on highway at 74 mph using cruise control. All ISs have recommended premium fuel (91 octane).

desiyankee · December 2004

I am looking at a used 2001 is 300 which has 76000 miles. he is asking for 13k. What should i look for in the car.

fredmcmurray · December 2004

dl7265 - I got mine from Lexus of Cerritos, but most of the dealers around here (Lexus of Mission Viejo, Tustin Lexus, Lexus of Westminister) were about the same.

Of course, this was last summer. It could be that they overproduced them in 2003 and had to discount heavily to get them off the lots. They may have curtailed production to better match demand and aren't dealing on them any more.

dl7265 · December 2004

ok, so you were speaking of summer '03 not summer '04 ? I have seen post where Carsdirect have had pretty good pricing in Cali on differnt model cars to find out they sell at MSRP in Dallas area, so i would not be supprised.

DL

riez · December 2004

desiyankee... Some things to look for in any used car:

- Run CARFAX report

- Ask to see all service records

- Talk to the servicing dealer and ask to see their records

- Take it for a very thorough test drive to see how everything sounds and works

- Have a mechanic look it over

- Check the tires out carefully (can give you an idea how the owner has treated it), looking for wear, in general, and any odd wear (might be out of alignment or have had air pressure issues)

Try to get a certified pre-owned (CPO) car from Lexus, so it is under Lexus warranty after the initial warranty period (believe CPO adds 3/50 from the date of CPO purchase)

Lexus IS 300

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