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Older Acura TLs

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    habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    My understanding of the autosick is that it is a fully automatic transmission that also has a setting whereby the driver can select between gears by moving the shift lever back and forth (or up and down). But it is mechanically an automatic, with torque converter etc. The GS430 that I test drove a while back had something similar, with paddles on the steering wheel to shift the gears.

    Sequential manual gearboxses (SMG) by BMW, AMG and others are touted as "clutchless manual transmissions" since they require the driver to shift the gears by paddles, but do not employ an power sapping torque converter and do not have a manually operated clutch. I'll botch the technical description of how they work if I try, so I won't.

    No mistaking a manual transmission in my book. Left foot clutch, right hand shifter. And no worries about an automatic transmission recall. My Maxima clutch at 153,000 miles is still going stong and when it does have to be replaced, it's about $400 labor included, not $2,500+ for an automatic (make that $5,000+ for BMW/Mercedes).
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The contour/mystique was based off the previous generation Ford Mondeo. Both the contour/mystique and that version of the Mondeo are out of production. The X type is based off the current Mondeo which is very different from the previous generation Mondeo.
    My point is it's not "the same as the Contour/Mystique". They're based off totally different versions of the European Mondeo.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    That is an accurate description of both.

    With an automanual you can select the gear instead of the computer selecting it for you. You must shift sequentially since you only have up and down controls (think videogame). Some automanuals will automatically shift for you (upshift if you redline e.g. - I think Porsche does this) and some will not. My Lincoln LS is forced to start in 2nd gear when in manual mode (thank the EPA fuel economy test rules for that one. They've since changed the rule) and if you give it > 60% throttle it will downshift to 1st. The other option was to lock out 1st altogether and they didn't want to do that. Other than that, it won't change the gear you've selected even if you hit the redline. It will just bounce off the rev limiter. Total control.

    Automanuals are still automatics with all the inherent traits of an automatic. You just get a little better control of the gear selection than you do with a regular automatic. It is NOT a substitute for a manual. Never will be.

    The automatic mode in SMGs is similar - it's not the same as an automatic. Not nearly as smooth but it works. But in manual mode these things can shift in milliseconds and there's no power robbing torque converter. They're also really expensive.
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    kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 237,197
    If you get the BMW SMG, you will most likely be using it as it was intended, or you will be very unhappy.. It really is designed as a manual, with no clutch... It makes a poor substitute for an automatic..

    I agree with all the other manumatics.. They are mostly for fun.. then you get bored. Even the BMW steptronic.

    regards,
    kyfdx

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    bosoxin04bosoxin04 Member Posts: 11
    I've had a steptronic in my Audi A6 since early 2000, and have the manumatic in the TL I bought at the end of March. I tend to use them regularly:

    getting on and off freeway ramps,

    driving thru twisting sections of highway, and

    thru any stretch of road where I am changing speeds frequently.

    The ability to downshift and control shift points above and beyond typical tach-regulated auto shifts improves the driving experience for me, and gives me a measure of the manu experience I used to enjoy before my wife's driving limitations forced me out of manuals. Once I got in the habit of using the Audi steptronic, I've maintained it for over four years now.

    FWIW.
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    hcsolo1hcsolo1 Member Posts: 5
    It's still a FORD!
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    habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    I recently read an article placing the Acura TL in the top 10 list of vehicles relative to expected resale value. The X-Type was singled out as one of the 3-5 worst. This is out of every make/model of car for 2004.

    I believe the article appeared in USA Today but was done by JD Powres, Consumer Research or some other such authority. I am sure a Google search on auto resale values would reproduce it, for anyone that is interested.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    The ones who take the hit on depreciation are the ones who buy close to msrp, then have big incentives added to new models a few years later. The lower cost of the new vehicles drives down the value of the older vehicles. If you bought an Xtype now, with the $5500 discounts, that would offset the potentially low resale value later, so the actual cost in depreciation dollars is probably the same. Plus most depreciation or residual figures are based on MSRP, not actual selling price so cars that are routinely discounted look worse than cars that aren't.

    If you really want to do a comparison, look at two cars optioned the same way for the same lease terms and see which one is lower.
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    shs111shs111 Member Posts: 39
    I owned a Jaguar XJ8L from 2000 through 2003, and could not be happier since I traded it for my 2004 Acura TL. Sure, it's a smaller car, less prestigious, and might not draw as much attention -- but at least I know I can rely on it. Every time I walked up to the Jag I would wonder whether it would start or not. When I had to have it towed four times in November/December 2003, my decision could not have been easier. Love the TL, might go for the RL in a few months. Buy an Acura and at least you know you can rely on the car. Good luck.
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    nkeennkeen Member Posts: 313
    I took delivery on a 2004 TL with manual 6-speed transmission (somewhat rare no-cost option that includes stiffer roll bars and Brembo front brakes) three days ago. It is back in the shop now because it was pulling to the left slightly at speed -- a problem that has been diagnosed as due to tire imperfections -- they've replaced two of the Bridgestones. This has given me the opportunity to drive an automatic TL loaner, which is nice, but not as nice as the manual with its more composed suspension set up. The service people have been great so far. Hope they've truly got the problem fixed -- I'll find out tomorrow.

    The TL replaces a 2002 VW GTI, which in the course of 36K miles got through a transmission, ignition coils, window mechanisms, etc. (I am not rough on cars). I also drove the Saab 9-3, BMW 525, Jag X-type, Subaru Legacy, but had no interest in the Lexus E330 --not my type of vehicle. (I also drove an Impala LS for good measure -- at the price does what it does well and built like a tank ...but the depreciation!)

    The TL has a good stereo (DVD-A surround sound) which also does decent mono (adds to the enjoyment of my beautiful Furtwangler Beethoven CDs from the 1940s). It's front wheel drive: unfashionable perhaps, but I too well remember effortlessly cruising past 325s, C240s and Crown Victorias that were struggling hopelessly in my wife's FWD Malibu last winter. The TL must be the fastest front driver on the road: 60 in around 6 secs and top end over 150. Great engine.

    Negatives: steering that is a little isolated and darty. It lacks the direct liveliness of the GTI's, and certainly doesn't measure up to the 3 series Bimmer's.

    Not a sport sedan perhaps, but definitely a four door GT. And clearly a lot of thoughtfulness and quality went into its design and build. And my first "Japanese" car too, with it's slightly video game-ish instrumentation. I used to hate this approach but am growing to see it as part of the charm. And I get the BBC World Service on the satelite radio.
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    sworkssworks Member Posts: 10
    no doubt the tl is a great car. but it can use some fixes.
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    tampajay1tampajay1 Member Posts: 4
    In the past there has been several posts about vibrations in the 2004 TL. Is there anyone with a very recently built 2004 TL who can say if this problem has been taken care of? Was it really just the EL42 tires causing the vibrations or other factors? Who knows the latest?
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    jeffreylevinjeffreylevin Member Posts: 32
    The motorola v710 phone settings has an option to enable the phone to discover a blue tooth connection. No need to re-link it. With the phone on/off; start the car and automatically pair up. Sorry for the delay, on vacation and away from the internet.
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    nkeennkeen Member Posts: 313
    Yes, the Ford Mondeo is a well respected platform in Europe -- check out reviews in CAR or other publications. I liked the X-type, but it was a little short on headroom for me (a common problem -- my torso is too long, my arms and legs too short).
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    tomjonesrockstomjonesrocks Member Posts: 8
    Emailed a dealer about this very topic and they wanted to call me on the phone and blah blah blah. Just kind of gathering information as to what lease options are currently available/what people are paying to lease their TLs right now.

    All I'm looking for right now is a ballpark # so I can see if I should wait to buy one in 2-3 years preowned or just least one now.

    I'd prefer a shorter lease opposed to a longer one, something around 3 years probably.

    Any advice/information would be useful!

    Thanks!
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    sharpwitzsharpwitz Member Posts: 30
    I hope everyone who reads this will visit Acura and send them some feedback.

    http://acura.com/help/help_feed_index.asp

    AC plug. Forget cigarette lighters. Everybody needs to charge their cell phones, PDA, or laptop.

    Rear seats that fold down for more trunk space.
    Beamer can do it, why can't we?

    How about an mp3 capable CD player and iPod external plug? CD's are like 8 tracks, they're yesterday.

    Most luxury lines have side mirror blinking lights for safety reasons. Why not Acura?

    Rear turning lights are red. Why not yellow? Blinking red lights are hard to recognize and dangerous in some situations.

    Metal door handles like the TSX. That's hot!
    Mercedes E320 has metal handles, why can't TL?

    Rear motion sensors to detect anything moving behind you. It's a cheap upgrade for Acura, I'm talking $5-10.

    Fog lights for TL.

    Lexus has a rear window shade thing. It's awesome. Why not step it up and add shade for rear passengers.

    Adaptive cruise control smart enough to slow down when approaching other cars.

    Driver assistance technology to alarm sleep deprived drivers when veering off.
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    equan1equan1 Member Posts: 27
    Great suggestions - obviously a lot of thought given to this. I really agree with the yellow signal lights. Red is totally stupid - looks rather than safety. In Europe I was under the impression it must be yellow by law (though the Audis and some VW are red, perhaps for the North American market)
    I understand there will be no SH-AWD option for the 2005 model.
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    habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    I generally appreciate constructive criticism and tend to give a lot myself, but in this case I'm going to send you back to the drawing (or thinkng) board more than Acura.

    (1) There are two AC plugs in my TL, no cigarette lighters. I keep my Bluetooth cell phone plugged into the center armrest and it's always charged and available. So what are you talking about?

    (2) Folding rear seats - "Beemer can do it, why can't we?". Listen, I seriously considered a $50k 2004 530i 6-speed before going with the $33k TL 6-speed w/ nav. You want to list how many things the BMW doesn't have as standard equipment that the TL does? Like xenons ($800 BMW option), a standard stereo that is better than BMW's $1,800 "premium sound package", a sport suspension and Brembo brakes standard on the 6-speed (vs. BMW's $3,300 sport package), heated seats and mirrors (vs. BMW's $750 cold weather package), XM radio standard (vs. BMW's $575 Sirius), Bluetooth phone link standard (vs. BMW's - oops, nothing.), and the best damn navigation system in the business (vs. BMW's $1,800 small screen wannabe). Oh, and the fold down rear seats you are clammoring for, those are a $475 option on the 530i.

    (3) I still have some good 8-tracks, and I can't find anywhere to play them. Seriously, the DVD system in the Acura, according to my audiophile friends, is about as good as it gets in a car. Sounds like you are a bit gizmo crazed.

    (4) Side mirror blinking lights. Not a big deal in my book.

    (5) Rear turning light colors. Also not a big deal in my book. I may be old enough to remember 8 tracks, but I never plowed into anybody's rear end because they had the wrong color brake /turning lights.

    (6) Metal door handles. You're kidding, right? The TL door handles are similar to BMW's 3 series. Oh, I forgot, it's only the rear folding seats you like from BMW.

    (7) Rear motion detectors for $5-10? Now that's a great deal. And perhaps you could get a job at BMW showing them how to build hinges in their rear seats for less than $475. Or heated seats for less than $750.

    (8) Fog lights. Duh, the TL has fog lights. Not that I use them much with the STADARD Xenon lights but they are there. I'm guessing that you missed them because they are integrated into the headlight cluster. Or because you never actually drove a TL.

    (9) Lexus has a "rear window shade thing". And they drive like a Toyota.

    (10) Adaptive cruise control? Better yet, a standard chauffer that drives the frigging car for you.

    (11) "Driver assistance technology to alarm sleeped drivers..". See #10, you don't need that with the standard chauffer.

    Seriously, the $33.3k I paid for my TL 6-speed Navigation with HPT package is considerably LESS in inflation adjusted dollars than the $21k I paid in 1994 for a 1995 Maxima SE 5-speed. And the only option the Maximan had was a $1,000 set of ABS brakes. No sunroof, leather, CD (or 8 track), or rear fold down seats.

    The 2004 TL is by no means a perfect car. But I would argue that it's probably the very best value for a mid-size sport sedan out there. And kudos to Acura for not nickle and diming buyers for every bloody option. I am considering upgrading to a 545i 6-speed (or even M5) down the road, but would have to give up some of the TL's features in the process. Even the bloody $85k AMG E55 I drove last week doesn't have most of the things on your shopping list. Oh, and it's "parktronic" system is a nice $1,050 option. So you can also try going over there to market your $5-$10 knock-off.

    If you are actually car shopping, I think you need to figure out what is important to you and stop fantasizing about getting something for nothing. Reminds me of the discussions I had when I owned a Honda S2000 as a fun car. Some "shoppers" like you compained about the weak stereo. On a $32k SPORTS CAR that in every performance catagory stacks up with the $60k Porsche Boxster S.
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    kennyg5kennyg5 Member Posts: 360
    The TL with Nav for about $33.5k is a lot of car and gizmos for the money, especially when you compare it with BMW and MB. If you want to talk about a "wish list", I hope the TL could come with a standard rear entertainment unit (DVD and X-box player) for my 11 year old kid for $200, but I know I am only dreaming :-)
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    sharpwitzsharpwitz Member Posts: 30
    I'm not here to bash the TL. I'm planning to buy one next month. It's been a year since I've test driven the TL and I forgot that it had AC plug(s).

    I am willing to pay more for the TL if it added more features. Rear fold downs would be worth the $475. I still feel MP3 capable player is a must. I would put that ahead of DVD-A. If you're going to put DVD-A in a car, you better have amazing speakers in the car (which the TL does not have - but still decent compared to cars in its class).

    Motion detectors go for $50-100 at any auto stereo shop (including labor).

    I thought earlier posts mentioned that fog lights were no longer available in the the new TL. Kudos that TL does have it.

    Thanks for the response. The TL is a great value.
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    igibanigiban Member Posts: 530
    Many valid points there but your pro-TL mindset may go a bit far at the same time.

    TSX actually has folding rear seat and blinking mirror lights. Whether it's a big deal depends on each person's needs, but one can easily argue if TSX does it why not TL.

    Rear window sun shade is indeed nice, regardless of it's being coupled with a Toyota ride or a Honda ride (and who's to judge one is necessarily better than the other; just preference only). Plus it's not only Lexus who has it.

    For a $30K car TL has quite a package but it does not have some of the common features seen on other lux lines either. Some of the common luxy feature missing on TL are rain sensing wipers, auto lights-on, and one-touch all windows. But I am sure it's not a big deal to many TL lovers.

    It does have some unique ones that others don't. DVD-A is one but is not a big deal to me as there're not too many of those. BT is nice if you phone often in the car and opt for those more $$ phones. A feature I actually like on TL that I don't hear mentioned often is setting driver's seat position b4 you enter the car.

    I mean TL has some goodies that you don't find even on some much more $$ cars, but it also lacks some common ones too. So it's a good value but at the same time it does not have all the 'stuff', even some common ones, in a package as many tend to conclude either.
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    1violinist1violinist Member Posts: 338
    I heard on the grapevine:

    Quote (Originally Posted by GeoffS):
    "New ones are definitely coming. My TL is here today and I'm picking it up Tueday but they have to give me the 17's until the A-spec rims are finalized. According to my sales guy it had something to do w sizing. I think the appearance is supposed to be basically the same. Also, as many probably know, the EL42's are out of there and the Pilot Sport A/S's are the norm..."

    Anyone knows for sure if the 05 TL will come with Michelin Pilot Sport tires?
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    habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    I guess my point (excessivley made) was that "stuff" isn't really what drove me to buy the 2004 TL.

    I have the 6-speed with HPT package. Retained FWD notwithstanding, it is a vast improvement over the previous TL-S in the "driving" department, which never would have been on my shopping list. Prior to test driving the TL 6-speed, I was pretty convinced my next sedan was going to be an underpowered 530i or a healthily priced 545i. The 330i was just a bit too small. The G35 was too unrefined in both the engine and interior department. That is also why I make the distinction with Lexus/Toyota. Lexus, for all of their gizmos and interior quality, has put almost no engineering effort into improved driving dynamics over what you would get in a Camry or Avalon. in other words, Lexus has perfected the Buick.

    So, on my wish list for the TL would have been rear wheel drive and an extra 1,000 rpm on the redline. The most likely thing to keep me from buying the new M5 when it comes out next year is the apparant lack of a true manual transmission, to go along with its 8,300 rpm V10. Rumor is that a 7-speed SMG will be the only transmission offered. So you can see that my priorities are a bit more to first getting a "drivers car" and then worrying about the extra gizmo's and goodies. But I guess I need to recognize that many TL owners and shoppers put those things first.
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    igibanigiban Member Posts: 530
    For sure TL does strike a decent balance among perfromance, luxury, and $$. One can certainly ask for more on either P or L, but then what's RL gonna do and be able charge another $10K? In the mean time, people who want more P can go to B330 or G35, depending room and budget requirement, and others who care more on L may want to go to Lexus instead.
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    ricks04ricks04 Member Posts: 2
    I am considering buying TL with AT. My only concern is the AT recalls on the TL's for 2002, 2003 and 2004. Either Honda cannot solve the cause of the problem, or they figure it is cheaper to recall. Either way, how much of a problem is it? Is it worth living with it?
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    fueledupfueledup Member Posts: 64
    i"m about to purchace a used 2004TL with nav, all factory body side, front,&rearskirts, factory performance tires and painted wheels. 2000 miles, perfect condition $31,000.00. but con cerned about all negative press in tl forums. please respond.
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    nkeennkeen Member Posts: 313
    Couldn't care less about bluetooth (don't/won't carry a cell phone) or memory seat settings (more complexity -- wasted 10 minutes trying to figure out how to override it in a loaner). The nav is fun to watch when you're driving along -- but $2K? But the features that really matter, this car has: great, revvy 270 HP engine, 6 seconds 0-60, slick short throw 6 speed transmission, quiet and comfortable interior - great distance car, build and materials quality, firm but compliant suspension, great audio, and, yes, front wheel drive. I've admired FWD since the original Mini destroyed RWD cars with much greater power in the 60's Monte Carlo rallies. Watch any RWD BMW or Mercedes contend with a light snow fall or heavy rain for a repeat perfomance.
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    diz1diz1 Member Posts: 5
    I am in the market for a used 1999-2000 TL and wondered about the gas recommendations. I have heard that you must use premium in a TL. Is this true and what will happen if I use regular 87 octane? Thanks for the feedback.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    You'll get less power and worse fuel economy which could mean using regular is actually more expensive than premium. If the vehicle was designed for premium, use it.
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    habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    What negative press on the 2004 are you concerned about? Most of the press I've seen has been very positive on the new TL.

    The only concern of significance is the "fixed or not-fixed" dilemma regarding the TL's automatic transmission. But if you are buying "factory performance tires", you must be looking at the 6-speed. The HPT package is not availbable on th eautomatic. And after 5,000 miles I have nothing but praise for the 6-speed. It's better broken in than new.
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    307web307web Member Posts: 1,033
    If using regular causes engine damage, then it will be more expensive for that reason, but I have never seen it proven that you save fuel by using premium.
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    nkeennkeen Member Posts: 313
    Why would you want to use gas that's not recommended for the car? Depends on how the engine management system works, but expect either reduced performance to avoid detonation or engine damage due to detonation.
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    akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    When a car that is tuned for premium uses regular then the ignition timing has to be retarded to avoid knocking. That will reduce power and fuel economy. How much will vary but I've seen specific numbers from one person who tried it (not in a TL) and their fuel economy dropped about 12%. As always, YMMV.
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    highenderhighender Member Posts: 1,358
    at what speeds do the vibrations come on ?

     I have a new TL, with only 1500 miles on odometer....and have not taken it past 90 mph.

    It was smooth from 0 to 90 mph , at least mine is.
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    nkeennkeen Member Posts: 313
    My 2004 TL (6 speed manual) pulls to the left and the steering loads up much more in a turn to the right than in a turn to the left (it almost falls into a turn to the left and feels as though it's fighting gravity in a turn to the right). The dealer has replaced both front tires, which has improved the situation a little, but has not fixed the problem. The alignment, front and back, has been verified to be within factory tolerances. Anyone any ideas? Anyone aware of a service bulletin that addresses this?
    Thanks.
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    mdhaukemdhauke Member Posts: 202
    I am wondering what parts of the dash, door, counsel, and seat are leather. I have this new leather cleaner and conditioner from Zaino that I want to apply but am wondering which parts are leather and which parts are not. Like for the seat, are only the edges leather or is the middle part too? How about the dash? Can I apply the leather cleaner and enhancer to everything?
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    cbfreemancbfreeman Member Posts: 5
    I'm torn between these two cars. I've driven nothing but Acuras since I was in college, but love the performance of the 330i (particularly w/ the sport package). Living in Atlanta, the FWD vs. RWD in snow issue is virtually nonexistent. I've read some comments about the interior of the TL not holding up (sagging upholstery and worn leather seats) which concern me. Any advice/opinions?
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    highenderhighender Member Posts: 1,358
    I'm getting about 19 mpg mixed driving (but mainly local) and about 24 mpg freeway only.

    my TL has 1600 miles, auto, w/nav.

    did your mpg improve since June ?

    I was hoping to change oil to synthetic, and maybe that will help .
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    highenderhighender Member Posts: 1,358
    I wish for such a DVD system also..

    I paid over $90,000 on the cayenne, and it did NOT have as many features as the TL did...well, comproble features....

    the DVD system installed in the TL would be about $1600 in aftermarket ...

    the TL just has so many features that BMW, MB, porsche, do not have....

    so instead of those, we went for TL....

    even the Audi was not as nice...
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    habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    On a 750 mile highway rountrip over the weekend, I averaged 29 mpg on the outbound leg, 27.5 mpg on the return leg. Those are actual measurements, but the trip computer was also accurate. Average speed showed as 72 and 69 respectively, which meant I was really driving most of the highway portion at 4-5 mph higher, since I had to go a few miles to get to/from the highway and had to stop a couple of times for tolls. The return leg was in a light but steady rain much of the way.

    I am not particlarly impressed with this highway mileage. It is 1-3 mpg less than the 6 speed is rated (30). By comparison, my 1995 Nissan Maxima 5-speed, rated at 27 mpg highway, would averaqge 28-31 on the same highway trip. My S2000, rated at 26 mpg highway, did it in 31.5. And in 6th gear, at 75 mph the S2000 is turning 4,500+ rpm; the TL runs at about 2,600 rpm at 75 mph.

    Even more unimpressive is the "mixed" mpg of around 17 mpg. The TL and S2000 had identical city ratings of 20. I have intentionally "babied" the TL for a tankful of mixed driving and still only gotten 17-18 mpg. I averaged 22 with the S2000 under similar conditions and drove it a heck of a lot more aggressively. According to my logbook, the worst mixed use tankful I ever had in 2.5 years on the S2000 was 18.9. In my Nissan Maxima, I only had 5 tankfuls (out of over 500) that averaged below 19 and my overall average in the Nissan was/is 24.03 mpg. So far in the TL, it's 18.71 and that includes 2,000 highway miles out of 5,500 total. In mixed driving, my TL gets about 25% worse gas mileage than the Maxima, 15-20% worse than the S2000 and only 10% better than our Trooper. It's marginally quicker than the Maxima, it is way the heck slower than the S2000 and it's 1,200 lbs lighter than the Trooper.

    I have an associate with a 2002 M5 (400 hp V8) and he gets 16 mpg city and up to 26 mpg highway. At least I didn't have to pay a $2,200 gas-guzzler tax, but I sure would have expected better out of the TL.
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    kennyg5kennyg5 Member Posts: 360
    Considering the 04 TL is at least 450 pounds heavier and 70 more in horsepower than your 95 Max, your mileage isn't bad. I made a 900 mile New York City to Williamsburg/Virginia Beach roundtrip two weeks ago in my 03 Max and I got 27 mpg (about 95% highway with approx. 800 passenger and 100 luggage pound weights). Around the city with stop and go traffic, however, I average only 16.5 mpg.

    As to comparing the TL to the M5, the money you saved on the purchase price will more than offset any difference in mpg numbers :-)
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    jerrynycjerrynyc Member Posts: 4
    Hi-

    I started this forum because I havent seen any talk in any other forum relating to the offical release and production dates for the 05 TL.
    I ask because, I pre-ordered a 2005 acura Tl Black-on black in JULY. I was told that the 05 models will be in by september. I havent seen one thing relating to 05 TL's yet anywhere. I called my acura dealership (in BK, NY)and I feel like my salesman is giving me the run around. I placed the order in July for the 05 because he sounded to sure and confident that the models will be in sept. However, now when I call, he does not even have a build date for me. And he said there is no way of him knowing when it would be. Funny he was quick to tell me a date when he wanted my $$ for a deposit.
    My problem now is I just sold my car, so i have no car, thankfully I commute into the city everyday for work via public transportation.
    My question is basically, does anyone know of any dates for the production to begin on the 05 TL. And also, does anyone know of any price increase or changes to the style. I heard they may be putting turn signal lights on the mirrors like the TSX has. Anyone else hear/confirm that?

    Thanks
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    habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    My point with the M5 was that the BMW gives you Porsche 911 performance in a 4,000 lb passenger car for gas mileage that isn't much worse than the TL. The TL's performance is marginally better than the 10 year old Maxima at significantly worse gas mileage.

    It's a bit perplexing. The TL's 6-speed is geared for fule efficiency, not performance (compared to the S2000). And it's a 10 year newer car that has the latest ULEV technology, compared to the Maxima. And yet, it's real world performance - at least mine - suggests it's a considerably less efficient engine than all of the others if you were to do an "MPG per horsepower" type of calculation
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    kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 237,197
    I would think that highway MPG is most heavily affected by:

    1) Final drive ratio

    2) Aerodynamics

    3) Rolling resistance

    Horsepower and weight are much farther down the scale on the open road.

    Also, even sixth gear in a manual transmission usually is lower than top gear in an automatic in the same car.

    regards,
    kyfdx

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    habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Agreed. Which is why it is perplexing that the 6-speed TL, which at 75 mph is only turning at 2,600 +/- rpm gets 27-29 mpg whereas my 6-speed S2000, turning at 4,100 rpm got 30-32 and my 10 year old Maxima, turning at 3,300 rpm gets 29-31. This is the exact opposite order of the EPA ratings, which are 30 for the TL, 26 for the S2000 and 27 for the Maxima.

    The TL certainly looks more aerodynamic than the Maxima and in terms of rolling resistance, the S2000 has the "stickiest" tires of the three by a large margin. I'm not being particularly scientific, but clearly the Acura TL is not at the forefront of efficiency / performance technology compared to, say, the Honda S2000.

    P.S. Just confirmed with a friend who has a 2004 330ci convertible 6-speed that on a weekly 250 mile highway roundtrip, he consistently gets 33-35 mpg with the top up and only about 1-2 mpg less with the top down. That is fully 20% better than the TL, in a vehicle that weighs 300 lbs more and has (I assume) lower aerodynamics and greater rolling resistence. Not to mention, in a car that in hardtop form, outaccelerates the TL in spite of a "rated" 45 horsepower disadvantage.
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    qwallsqwalls Member Posts: 406
    I just placed an order for a 2005 TL today. I was told production is supposed to start this month, and they expect to see the first cars arrive in October...maybe late September, but more likely October.
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    ivan_99ivan_99 Member Posts: 1,681
    I think your TL is achieving its objective.

    If you're receiving 27-29mpg and EPA is listed at 30 then that's about as close as you'll ever get. I think (not positive) but the highway testing is only going 48mph average with a max of 60mph in a LAB...and you’re doing 75mph!

    Comparing to the S2000, the TL has a much larger cylinder swept volume with 2 more cylinders; rpm doesn't tell the whole storey. And they are pretty close in mpg, which is actually quite impressive for the TL.

    Comparing to the Max...maybe Nissan makes better engines ;)
    In reality the TL is making substantially more horsepower with a slightly larger engine, and getting near identical (according to you) mpg.

    Yes, BMW's are amazing...as the price reflects.

    I really don't see your concerns.
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    habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    My concern is simple. The actual gas mileage I have been getting with the TL is well below what I would have expected and compares very unfavorably to other cars that I and friends own or have owned.

    I get as low as 15 mpg in mixed driving. I don't commute to work on the DC beltway or in bumper to bumper city traffic. I'd hate to think what the mileage would be like under those circumstances.

    Everyone's city and mixed driving habits differ, but setting the cruise at 70-75 mph for a 300+/- mile highway drive has always produced actual mileage better than EPA estimates for me. Except in the TL. Put even a relatively small amount (30%) of non-highway driving in the mix, and the overall mpg drops to BELOW the "city" rating.

    For the record, the cost of gas is not an issue with me. Hell, my other consideration was a 545i 6-speed which costs $25k more than the TL. But I am concerned that either (a) my car has an engine issue or (b) the basic design of the new TL engine is inherantly inefficient and that could signal other engineering issues or problems down the road.

    So I don't think the TL is achieving it's objective. Certainly not from a fuel efficiency perspective.
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    bodble2bodble2 Member Posts: 4,514
    I have been doing only almost exclusive city driving. For the first 1000 KM, when I babied my TL, I got city mpg slightly better than my CL did. But for the last 4 - 5 fill-ups, my mpg has dipped by about 2 - 3, so now I'm getting about 1 - 2 mpg worse than my CL did. (For the record, I'm now getting about 18 - 19 mpg city. But it's imperial gallons)

    Also for the record, my '95 Maxima automatic for the most part hovered around 20 mpg city for the 4+ years I had it -- not much better than the TL despite being almost 400 lbs lighter, a smaller engine, and 80 hp less.
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    leopardxleopardx Member Posts: 3
    2005 are slated for October release.
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