Older Acura TLs

boe_d · February 2001

Thanks again - if you have any details please e-mail me at boe_d@hotmail.com. Any guesses on where to see what those new colors actually look like?

PeterUbers · February 2001

I've come across some URL's that have scanned images of the TL Type S's new colors, I'll scour for 'em again (as I'm interested again too) and I'll post 'em. PS: I'm emailin' you the details.

scott31 · February 2001

My 2003's AC system does not work normally. I can get very cold air, but to do so I have to turn the temp gauge down to 60 degrees.

If I set the system to a normal 72, the car never really goes cool. I notice that if I'm in non-freeway speeds traffic the situation gets worse. The dealer has told me twice already that everything is fine. This is the 3rd car I've owned (ok leased) that has automatic climate control, and this is NOT normal.

As for the console lid, mine started popping up on day 1, they just replaced the latch (I pick the car up on Monday) and we'll see if it fixed it.

PeterUbers · February 2001

You should check out acura-tl.com for more posts pertaining to the TL Type S and TL. Plus there are picks and more stuff on the Type S.

pat · February 2001

We also have a discussion here at this link: 2002 Acura TL-S - that would be a great place to post information about this vehicle - the participants there would love for you to fill them in on what you know.

Pat
Host
Sedans and Women's Auto Center Message Boards

PeterUbers · February 2001

I have.

jzauberman · February 2001

re: dougsilver's post no. 592 -- your experience is exactly the same as mine with my 00 3.2 TL that now has 15,000 miles on it. Nice car but, like you, I am experiencing a few interior creaks, shudders, clicks, etc. that are extremely annoying. In addition I had dash rattles from day 1 that ultimately were fixed but it took some considerable time and aggravation (both mine and the terrific tech that worked on the car). I also had a couple of Maximas (/89 GXE and /93 SE) that I ran to in excess of 100,000 miles each with none of the "noises" that the Acura has. I drove the 00 Maxima SE before settling on the 3.2 but now I am wondering whether I made a mistake. The Acura (and don't get me wrong those of you who have had no problems with your cars) just doesn't seem as robust as my old Maximas did. Initially I thought the "Nissan God" was punishing my for straying to the competition! However, from driving a number of 3.2 loaners at my dealer and from dougsilver's experience it appears that perhaps these "noises" are somewhat more prevalent that one would think. Although I'll keep the 3.2 for 3-4 years, I'm not too happy with the prospect of having to listen to these noises that just should not be present in a car approaching the 30K mark. By the way, the tech at my dealer has tried numerous times to trace and eliminate these noises and simply can't seem to make them disappear. I wonder if this type of thing qualifies under the lemon law in my State (Michigan). My noises are primarily coming from the right rear passenger door/seat/parcel shelf area. Anyone have any ideas? I don't mean to sound as if I hate the car or am attacking its mechanical quality, but the rattle/squeak factor is disturbing. I'd rather have a minor mechanical breakdown that gets fixed under warranty and once its fixed you don't think about it any more than a persistent rattle/squeak problem.

bdubin · February 2001

I purchased an '01 TL about 4 weeks ago. I've had a few problems with the car. The valve cover gasket was leaking oil and a rattle from the passenger side of the dash (very near the door).
The valve cover gasket was easily fixed - though I'm concerned that this may be a harbinger of other engine problems in the future.
The rattle in the dash, however, has proved elusive to the service manager and tech. The car has been to the dealer twice now for the rattle - each time for a full week.
Because the car is so wonderfuly quiet the rattle really does bother me. It seems to happen after the car has been driven for about 30 minutes and the cabin is fully warmed up.
Any suggestions?

dougsilver · February 2001

If by "right rear" you are referring to the seat directly behind the driver (I believe right and left directions are with respect to facing the car head on) then that is exactly the same location as my click/rattle. I sat in the rear while my wife drove and traced the source to the wide side pillar just behind your head to the left when you are seated. Pushing on the trim made the noise go away but then it returned again later. Seems that hitting rough road during cold temperatures triggers the noise that, once started, never stops. However, now that I know where it is coming from I will have the dealer fix it during my next service.

In terms of "robust", the TL overall seems more solid than our previous 90 Maxima but it also feels more ponderous and less nimble. True the TL has 60 more horses than the Maxima but also several hundred pounds more weight.

Finally, it is too bad that the foglights that we were all clamoring for (even as an option) will now be standard equipment on the new TL. By the way, except for the grill/headlight/foglight area, which looks similar to the CL and the semi-clear tail lights, the new (2002) TL looks just like the current model. However, Acura is planning for some dramatic remodeling in the very near future that will make this generation (1999 through 2002) look obsolete.

marsha7 · February 2001

while I do not speak for other posters, I believe that ANY reference to a vehicle position is always stated as though one was sitting in the driver's seat looking forward...hence, anything on the right side of the car would always be on the passenger side...left rear would describe the position behind the driver...facing the vehicle head-on does not change this...looking at the vehicle, the driver's side would always be called the left side (at least in America, not England), even though facing the vehicle head-on the driver would be "on your right" it is still the left side of the vehicle...

klkrause · February 2001

I agree with marsha7 ... everything is relative to sitting the driver's seat looking forward. That's at least how cars are designed.

rickslick · February 2001

are also prevelent in my car. I hear the noises mostly the sunroof and around the rear passenger door. It happens mostly when I'm riding someone that weighs in excess of 200lbs which are most of my friends. The car only has 1500 miles on it. I will schedule an appointment soon. The stereo in this car is nice but I wish it sounded as nice as the one in my old Maxima SE.

hunter001 · February 2001

I agree that I probably, was a bit too exuberant in my previous post, and I apologize if I offended anyone.

But nevertheless, I do not agree with Rolex/Seiko similies for the simple reason that Rolex/Seiko are not direct competitors - not even close. These particular models from Acura/Lexus (TL/ES300) are DIRECT COMPETITORS to each other. More like 2 similar products from Aiwa and Panasonic. The Acura MDX and Lexus RX300 are also direct competitors to each other. Lexus has products like the GS300/430/SC430/LS430, where there is no competing model from Acura. The 3.5RL from Acura is a joke compared to the LS430. At the same time, Lexus does not have anything that even approaches the $88,000 Aircraft Aluminium alloy bodied mid-engined pure sports-car, the Acura NSX, sporting innovations like drive-by-wire and titanium connecting rods. The NSX, for people not in the know, single-handedly put Ferrari on the defensive and forced them to improve the reliability of their products. But Lexus has better Luxury name recognition than Acura, since (inspite of the lack of something at the level of the NSX), their mainstream products go head-to-head with mainstream products from companies like BMW and Mercedes, which is what common people identify with Luxury. They also have fantastic customer service. Lexus, which took birth AFTER Acura, started off well with the presence of the LS series, with the ES250 providing the volume backup - and from the word go, Lexus went after the established Euro players like BMW/Mercedes by providing high quality products, pretty cheaply (the "Citizen" alternative to established "Seikos" ??). That woke up the Euros and put a lot of pressure on them to reduce prices and match up, to the quality/reliability of Lexus products.

Acura on the other hand(till the recent years), had been floundering without direction, with lack-lustre products (high quality mind you, with reliability comparable to Lexus) like the previous generation 3.2/2.5 TL etc. Luckily, the recent products from Acura, due to intelligent design and listening to the market, have been consistently putting Lexus on the defensive by being value priced to move - the exact same tack that Lexus employed on the Euros when Lexus first came into the US - when the Lexus name had zero recognition (to be a Rolex, it takes a lot more than a decade, BTW, regardless of the quality of the product, FYI).

The next generation RL from Acura is rumored to be a RWD vehicle with a 5-valve per cylinder DOHC V8 engine, which is the first vehicle from Acura, that would be a direct competitor for the Lexus LS430, and is supposed to be in an advanced state of testing/development. There is also rumored to be, an AWD variant for the next generation RL, with sport tuning. Going by the tenor of the past couple of presentations from Acura (3.2TL, 1999 and beyond, and MDX), I predict that Lexus is going to have a hard time when that model hits the streets. Lexus would have a harder time, if Acura were to bring in a small sedan based on the RWD Honda S2000, with a small DOHC V6, to compete with the IS series.

Basically, my take is that competition is good. The consumers like you and me would be the winners.

Cheers !!!

Later...AH

hunter001 · February 2001

For people experiencing squeaks etc from their cars, I would suggest that you insist on getting it fixed at the dealers'. I would expect nothing but perfection, from an Acura product.

My in-laws who have a 2000 Mercedes S500, also have a few squeaks and phantom rattles, that occur periodically, especially noticeable when the weather is cold. The dash (of the S500)is particularly squeaky. A friend had recently purchased a similar Mercedes S430, which also suffers from an off-and-on "squeaky dash syndrome" and a faint rattle from somewhere. But the Mercedes dealership experience had been fantastic and they are pretty happy, in-spite of the un-acceptable noises that emanate from such a premium car. My in-laws who ride with us, once in a while, are amazed at the fit-and-finish of the Acura....they had trouble believing the price at which I purchased this car.

Touch wood, but my 3.2TL has been tight as a drum since the day I bought it. Absolutely no imperfections whatsoever, except for the original touring tires (exactly the same as the one on the Lexus ES300) that came with the car. I replaced the OEM tires with Ultra-high performance all-season Michelins, and the transformation of the car is well-nigh miraculous. The car accelerates, brakes and corners fantastically now. The only disadvantage with the new tires are that they are a bit noisier (only noticeable by a TL owner with the stock tires) when compared to the stock TL tires and the mileage reduced by a mile or two on the highway.

Four of us, including my wife and I, along with assorted light luggage, had taken the TL on a road-trip from NJ to Chicago/Rockford IL, via Cleveland, OH, a few months back. The Navigation system was fabulous, guiding us through thick fog and pitch darkness, through un-familiar streets like a guardian angel. Before the turns approach, the NAV warns us about the turn with a countdown like 1000 ft.... 900ft.... 800ft.... 600ft.... 200ft... 100ft.... etc...you just cannot miss your turn. Our overall mileage during the approximately 2500 mile trip with Automatic climate control set, was about 32 mpg. Hell, that is almost Honda Civic mileage territory. I just love this fantastic car.

Later...AH

ruski · February 2001

I still don't believe those magazine numbers.

If I were to believe them, then the acceleration improvement between TL and TL-S would not seem to be worth the extra money.

P.S. I am glad people backed me up re: leather seating surfaces in the Lexus ES. turbotc - you have to buy a very expensive Mercedes or a Rolls Royce in order to get full leather seats.

lexus4me · February 2001

hunter001,

Ok, OK, you got me on the Rolex vs Seiko thing. So how about we agree on the Citizen vs Timex. Cool? I do agree with you how lexus entered the market and offered quality cars for a lower price forcing the Europeans to lower their prices and improve on the quality of their cars. Maybe now Acura is doing the same by offering so much car for so littler money (TL). I don't really know Acura Customer Service but I must say Lexus has a darn good customer service. We purchased our car on a busy Saturday afternoon and they had a storyteller at the dealer reading books to the kids and had pudding and ice cream and our kids loved it. And a week after delivery of our car, we got a call from the sales manager saying that we can expect a survey in the mail soon and that we should fill it out to however we thought the dealer had treated us. He wasn't like trying to bribe us and offer free oil changes or things like that. The car has been running really well. Quite floaty on the highway reminds me of my dad's Lincoln Town Car.

ruski,
What do you mean by the seats no being fully leather? It looks to me like it is all leather. Even the back of the seats and the door trim felt like real leather. i could be wrong though.

hunter001 · February 2001

Since the Gear ratios (of the 5-speed Sportshift Automatic Transmission) of the TL and the TL-s ( & CL-s) are EXACTLY THE SAME, the acceleration numbers would be pretty close to each other, in-spite of the additional 35 horses in the TL-s. Of course, the TL-s would be a bit faster but not a lot more. With more closely spaced lower gears, and a non-overdriven 4th gear, the TL-s would have been a lot more faster - in fact a raging demon, at the expense of a bit worse mileage. Maybe the mileage would reduce from the current 19/29 to about 19/27. If you need it, I can explain the theory in a bit more detail, with examples from the Acura/BMW family (why the BMWs are pretty fast inspite of less horses under the hood and coincidentally, their lighter automatic transmissioned cars get worse mileage than other heavier auto transmissioned cars).

The TL-s has got certain things the TL does not have, including a much more sportier suspension that includes stiffer springs & dampers, stiffer rear anti-roll bar etc., in addition to differences in the Anti-lock brakes, Traction Control System and VSA. Due to the above, the TL-s would be a much better handler than the TL. Also, it costs less than a couple of thousand dollars more than the regular TL.

I think if I had a choice, then I would emphatically go for the TL-s over the TL, and that would definitely not be, for its acceleration prowess (which is plenty good enough for me).

Later...AH

klkrause · February 2001

Ruski was just pointing out the fact that most leather seats usually only have leather on the seating surfaces themselves, especially on cars that are less expensive than $40,000. Some high-end luxury cars (like upper-end Mercedes, BMW, Lexus?, Jaguar, etc.) do have full leather, even on the backs of seats. I'm not sure what Lexus you drive, but the lookalike leather on the backs may not be leather.

bsheng · February 2001

the new tl-type s look great when i saw it on motorweek. i heard a new tl was coming out 2003 or 2004. i think i can wait for 2003 but not 2004. anyone know more?

dj5 · February 2001

Just received an invitation in the mail to see the new 2002 3.2 TL Type-S a the Auto Show here in Atlanta on March 8.

This leads me to believe this car will be hitting the dealerships by the end of March.

hunter001 · February 2001

From what I hear, MOST Lexus dealerships offer much better service than MOST Acura Dealerships. Note that I have emphasized the word "MOST" in the previous statement. Basically, what it boils down to, is the individual dealership. Some Acura dealerships offer service that rival some of the top-of-line Luxury dealerships in the country; while some others offer lousy service, a bit better than a Honda dealership experience. But then my take is that there are no free lunches in the automotive service arena. If they provide bells and whistles over and above what some others do, then they must be building the costs up, in higher charges. So if you get more, you are certainly paying more for it - for essentially the same service.

Originally, I wanted the Acura 3.5RL, which is truly a Luxury automobile (albeit a gutless one, when it comes down to the basics), unlike cars like the ES300 or the 3.2TL, which can be categorized as near-luxury. While at the dealership, I got caught up in the TL, took the car for a spin, went home, researched it further, took the TL for a few more spins, and then the RL was history. Did a cash purchase of my 2000 TL with the Navigation system. Best way I have spent my money, in a long time. The ES300 was briefly considered but the driving characteristics never appealed to me, to put it mildly (no offense to ES300 owners). The Lexus GS series had what I wanted, but then for the money I had budgeted for my car, I would have had to settle for the GS300, since the GS400 (now the GS430) costed a lot more than what I was willing to spend while purchasing for cash (I was never a fan of Financing/Leasing).

Later...AH

klkrause · February 2001

Motor Trend sounded pretty excited about the TL-S in the issue I received today. They didn't have a full road test, but I'm looking forward to reading more about it.

They said that they should start hitting dealerships in March.

When it comes down to it, I think my only decision will be TL-S with Navigation System or not ... not which vehicle! For the price, I don't know how you could beat it.

msu79gt82 · February 2001

The TL-S arrival date is March 15. This has been posted several times. See also the 2002 Acura TL-S post.

phil4vers4 · February 2001

I purchased '00 3.5RL last May and noticed a rattle in the right dash in front of passenger. It took me a few months to isolate where it specifically came from but when I did I showed the service tech. He took out the airbag cover and added an extra layer of EPT tape. This took care of the vibration. This may be where your rattle originates, it sounds familiar. They can be very annoying huh?
Good Luck.

PeterUbers · February 2001

My dealer called me yesterday night and told me that my vehicle would be arriving ('02 Pearl TL-S) in mid-April. He said he thinks this might be due to the unique color I've ordered. He expected that the silvers and blacks will arrive late March (at this point).

stevejjjjj · February 2001

Anyone with a recommendation for an Acura dealer in the Chicago area? Thanks. Steve.

PeterUbers · February 2001

Continental Acura

Ask for Abe, and tell him Raj referred you.

2110 Ogden Avenue
Lisle, IL 60532
630-960-2100
www.continentalmotors.com

They're dumpin' their '01 TL stock, and they're a great bunch of people -- very courteous and polite.

Lemme know if ya need more info!

hunter001 · February 2001

I agree about Continental Acura. When I was in Peoria, IL, I used to visit them for my service needs. Compared to all the Acura dealers I have dealt with, including Acura of Somerville, NJ, Acura of Bellevue, WA, Brunswick Acura, NJ, Park Avenue Acura, NJ etc.,.......Continental Acura was the best - FOR SERVICE - Bar none. They used to go out of their way to make sure that the customer was happy. However, I am not aware of Sales experiences there.

Later...AH

guest · February 2001

That's a heck of a drive for service. Guess the Peoria dealer waspretty bad.

hunter001 · February 2001

Nope there is no Acura dealer, in or around Peoria. There was a lousy Honda dealer in Peoria, but no Acura dealers. The nearest Acura dealer was Continental - 165 miles away. But they used to always give loaners. I used to be at the dealership at 7.30am, be on my way back in a loaner by around 7.45am and then drop the loaner back in the evening (after work) and pick my baby up (my car at that time was an Integra), and drive back to Peoria.

But I did that only for major services like 7500 mile oil change, 15000 mile oil change etc. For the minor ones (3000 mile changes), I used to visit the local lousy Honda dealer.

Later...AH

stevejjjjj · February 2001

I am thinking of a TL but want to wait to test drive a 2000 type S first. Do I get a good deal if I mention your name? Thanks for the tip, I will give Abe a call. Steve.

PeterUbers · February 2001

I've told Abe that I would refer several of my friends to him, and I know that only means you'll get some sort of preferential treatment (be it free mudflaps or what-have-you). Abe will keep you in touch as to the status of your TL-S should you decide to put some $money down on it (arriving early April according to Continental Acura). You're probably referring to the 2002 Type S, and I'm sure that if you've been in the $30K market, you'll enjoy the performance enhancement of the Type S. I didn't have the option of driving the TL Type S, so I took it's little brother, the CL Type S for a spin (both will weight exactly the same -- 3558 lbs and should accelerate and do 1/4 miles in about the same time too.. however, the TL-S will not be as "stiff" of a ride as the CL-S), and I was just ga-ga over the performance of the 260 horses. You won't necessarily get a good deal on the TL-S since it's brand new, and there is a waiting list (only four or five names), but should the demand be low, you may be able to negotiate when it comes in -- hey, it never hurts to try. I am sure you'll get a good deal on the 2001 TL, however. Good luck, and lemme know what you decide!

boe_d · March 2001

Anyone know when Acura will update their home page to include the 2002 models in full detail?

boe_d · March 2001

Does anyone know when the the invoice price of the 2002 will be posted?

cjb10350 · March 2001

I am just coming off an Accord lease at the end of April and I was thinking of getting an Acura 3.2TL, which I hear is a great car. My local dealer whom I spoke with briefly today (it was very busy in the show room) said he can give me a great price on the 2001: $26,499 but he mentioned that the residual came down quite a bit to 58%. Is this some dealer scam? Should I wait for the 2002's to come out?

klkrause · March 2001

I've heard that residuals have come down lately for a lot of vehicles, not just the TL. The same is happening with other manufacturers' vehicles, as well. I think a lot of it is due to the slowing economy and the fact the many automakers and banks have overestimated the residuals for the past few years. Many companies are trying to make up for their underestimating by lowering their residuals substantially. Of course, make sure the money factor is taken into account, as well, because it is a significant part of the lease payment calculation.

boe_d · March 2001

I just bought a 2001 TL for a very good price at Cerritos. Can anyone tell me if there is internet vendor for the alarm chip? They wanted $500 for the alarm chip though - there must be an alternate chip. I could get a P4 for that kind of money.

boe_d · March 2001

Has anyone gotten their TL with a full spare? Does it fit under the the wheel cover?

smile2846 · March 2001

Are there any tall drivers out there like myself that find it difficult to "fit" in the TL? I sat in one today at the dealership and found I had about 3/4" to spare below the moon roof. I'm 6'2" tall, but my Legend and the TL seem to have much more room at the top. Interestingly enough, legroom was not a problem on the TL.

Are there any fixes for lowering the seat in any way to accommodate taller drivers?

Thanks.

kkuet · March 2001

just curious, how much did you pay for your tl and could future buyers also post what they paid. thanks.

boe_d · March 2001

It was $100 over invoice, of course there was destination, tax and 415 for license fees- seems a little excessive but I hate dealing with dmv. Out the door w/ Nav, wheel locks, splash guards, touch up paint (don't forget to ask) tax, fees 31140. The license fees messed up the price - I just am too lazy to deal with DMV.

I'm ticked about the alarm though - they claim $500 for a chip (just the chip) to make the alarm active - I could get a P4 for that amount. I just had a full one installed for less and kept their system so now I have two alarms activated with one remote. Pity they make you get leather seats and a sunroof, heated seats and they skimp on an alarm system. I would gladly trade any of those for the alarm.

boe_d · March 2001

I know one dealership mentioned free oil changes for the first 3 years. The one I purchased my car from never said anything - does anyone know if Acura has a policy for CA on this?

slz · March 2001

I just purchased a 2001 3.2 TL (w/o nav) for invoice! Had to take the color they had on the lot - Naples Gold Metallic. $26,216 incl destination but w/o tax and DMV fees etc... 39 month lease with no money down (only acquisition fee, security deposit, & 1st month payment) and tax rolled into the payments = $416.41/month.

The residuals on the 2001s have dropped because the car is at the end of its cycle - so in 3 years it will be worth less. This is not a dealer scam. The new 2002 TLs will have higher residuals but the money factor (interest rate) will not be as good as the 2001s. The 2002 TL (w/o nav) will also be selling at MSRP initially (1st 3-6 months) which will be about $30K. I felt that the differences between the 2001 and 2002 model line were not worth $3800.

Dealers around here (New York - Westchester) have told me that they expect the 2002 TLs to be in within the next 3-4 weeks.

If you are willing to take what a dealer has sitting on the lot now (2001) you should be able to get close to invoice.

sasmith95 · March 2001

What dealer in Westchester did you deal with? Did you visit more than one of them, and if so what were your impressions/comparisons of the dealers?

hunter001 · March 2001

http://www.acura-tl.com/ubb/Forum14/HTML/000245.html

Later...AH

mhammy84 · March 2001

Test drove a GS430 by Lexus a week ago. Nice car...but I was SO surprised to find that my 2000 Acura TL on Michelin 205's was MUCH more quiet than this car. Sure, it had 225 tires, but its all V-rated rubber...and I had much higher expectations of the Lexus with regard to sound insulation. Just felt like sharing this point!

bluesky999 · March 2001

I respect the opinion of the poster who feels that the '02 will sell at MSRP for 3-6 months, but I feel differently. Being that this is the 4th model year of a projected 5 year run, I don't believe that the MSRPs will hold longer than 2-3 months, max. The new ES300 will be coming out, along with the new A4, which will help keep prices down. Also, some people will wait 2 more years to get the '04 TL, which will be an entirely new car. The base TL for '02 is not much more than a restyled snout with a nicer CD player and memory seats, compared to the '01. Not much to get excited about. The TL-S does of course offer a good bit more. Of course, we can give our opinions until we pass out, but time will be the final judge.

bluesky999 · March 2001

It surprises me to see people get excited about the TL. It's such a plain-looking car. Not that I don't like it--will be purchasing one this summer--but my choice is all about competence in many areas. Now the 300M, or the BMW 5 series, or that new Lexus convertible coming out--now those cars have a personality. I think if Acura infuses some style into the next iteration of TLs (i.e. '04 models), their sales would be unbelievable.

Happy Touring

PeterUbers · March 2001

Hmm.. I think that is just Dodge taking that cab-forward concept to the extreme edge of automotive engineering and design. Ugh! What an ugly car. And, I'm sorry, for a car w/ 253 horses under the hood, it sure doesn't perform like it. You're talking about competence in many areas?? Well, unless you're including the trunk size, and glove compartment size of the 300M as being some "serious" competency categories, wake up and consider the basics: performance, price, reliability, value. I guess I've never been a big fan of domestic vehicles, and I've honestly considered the 300M objectively -- but, please. How do you get excited over the 300M? You're obviously taking Chrysler's multi-million dollar t.v. ad campaigns way too seriously. And by the way, Acura's sales are pretty good right now. According to JD.Power, more TL's were sold since '99 than ES300s, and that's a pretty good benchmark.

Furthermore, why did you decide on the ultra-plain TL? You seem to imply that the 300M does handsprings all over it. I'd be very interested to read an objective, convincing argument on why the 300M is a superior vehicle if you are comparing it with the TL. The challenge is yours for the taking....

PeterUbers · March 2001

You also forget you're in an Acura TL forum -- implying that mostly people very interested and enthusiastic about this vehicle will be posting here -- I seem to recall a 300M forum in the SEDANS category.. or wait, was it in the Maintenane and Repair category?? can't remember.

Older Acura TLs

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