Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
Sorry, Scanner, I don't recall an email from you. (I don't know how you'd know my email address.) So I'm not sure what I posted that I should credit you with, though I'd be happy to do so.
Can you clarify? Thanks.
--rolfe.
Do you have the 3.8L engine ?
Also, you will want the VIN when you call 1-800-992-1997 Customer Service.
Is there something wrong with Edmunds or is someone trying to tell me something?
Steve
Host
SUV and Vans Message Boards
That was a real address, not cloaked profanity.
Steve
Host
SUV and Vans Message Boards
The engine-mount hypothesis says that it is the 3.8L engine and not AWD that is the noise-critical factor. That suggests that a 3.8L non-AWD vehicle would exhibit the noise. I don't recall--were there any reports to that effect?
the response from pgs_28 in (558 & 549) would indicate there is at least one FWD that has a vibration like this.
I asked the test driver/technician at our dealer what else is different between the AWD and FWD engine mounting. He honestly answered that he didn't know, but speculated that the yolk could be different based on the way the drive shaft exits to the rear - could be other things as well - he really didn't know.
It would be interesting to put an AWD and FWD up on lifts side by side and compare. Better yet, if the parts depts have blow ups, comparison of the part numbers for each in the engine mounting area could tell whats different as well.
All I can tell you is that the test driver/tech was adamant that he hadn't had any FWD instances of this to date. That's just one dealer's experience however.
As someone else pointed out as well, if the van is going to make this noise, it's there from day one, and it's always present. There is nothing intermittent about this. So if you test drive a van that's nice and quiet, it would seem that it doesn't fall into this set of noisy cars.
I am interested in it because I could get a new minivan for under $20,000. Any suggestions?
Interesting comment about the engine mounts. I definitely have an FWD and it is definitely there. I noticed it when I picked up the van and had in twice to see if it could be remedied. I came to the Edmund's site when I was searching the net looking for anyone who might have had the same problem. I couldn't believe it when I read that some people had. There is nothing worse than having a problem isolated only to your vehicle and everyone at a dealership telling you things like "it's normal" or "I don't feel it".
I think the guy above was a tad premature running to his Honda dealership. The T&C is still a great vehicle and I'm confident, with the help of this forum, that this problem will be resolved.
I agree that the new torque may be the potential cause of the problem. When one thinks of it, there are very few places the drive train contacts the body. Certainly one is the engine mounts, the 2nd is the exhaust brackets and the third... maybe... might be some kind of transmission mount. I presume the vibration that we are feeling could find it's way to the body via one of those roots. Of course I don't think the vibration on the gas pedal is not going to be effected by this. The gas pedal is picking up the 'torque' vibration and transferring it via the accelerator cable. Even if one was to ensure that the right engine mounts absorbed the vibrations from the drive train, that would only stop the vibration to the body but not to the gas pedal. Therefore I suspect that it is the increased torque that is playing havoc with the whole system. A problem I don't think is easily resolved. The best one can do is minimize the vibration transference to the body and then figure out a way to do the same with the gas pedal. Some kind of rubber coupling might alleviate this.
I am not an engineer. I worked in a gas station through university but that doesn't qualify me to diagnose anything. Just some logical thoughts off the top of my head. I would appreciate anyone else's comments as to whether this is a reasonable hypothesis.
thx
thx
So what other variable (other than FWD vs AWD) might it be? I know this is a stretch, but could it be something like heavy duty suspension as the common denominator? Or the load leveling and height control suspension included with trailer tow group?
After all, HD suspension is STANDARD on the ES AWD and OPTIONAL on the FWD.
(Don't ask me how the suspension could affect noise, I'm just looking at it statistically for the moment.)
pgs_28 -- do you happen to have a HD suspension on your FWD? What about trailer tow group?
--rolfe.
I have the towing package... I have everything available except AWD.
I'm not sure that we can say with certainty that FWD drivers don't have it. I've only driven two FWD but both had it in varying degrees. Of course one was the T&C and the other the Sport.
Good ideas. Keep in mind that resonance doesn't have to be from rotating metal (engine, tranny, etc.). It could be air or gas. For example, the gas (I don't mean gasoline) in the exhaust system can resonate based on the pressures in the system, the geometry of the exhaust pipe, etc.
An example of what i'm talking about is the sound coming from a pipe in a pipe organ. A particular pipe in an organ resonates at a particular frequency based on such things as the length of the column of air.
Too bad the noise in our Caravans doesn't sound more melodic :-(
--rolfe.
Since I haven't a clue about the nature of the engine mounts, I can only cast out wild guesses. One such is that the mounts are OK, but some feature of the installation hardware is wrong. For example, a bolt that is too long. That would be good news indeed. Frankly, I'm a bit surprised that DC hasn't done something definitive about this problem. Of course, there is always the possibility that the relevant staff has been fired and the temps don't understand German.
If I set up the 'steady-state' conditions you suggest and release the gas pedal, the noise instantly stops.
In fact, when demonstrating the effect to my dealer's tech, I would 'pump' or modulate the pedal, and the noise would come and go accordingly.
However, I'm not sure what this really says about torque, because, of course, the RPM also drops instantly. I don't discount your engine mount theory, however. Solving that kind of problem sounds cheaper (per vehicle) than replacing all or part of the exhaust system.
--rolfe.
Your positive test result emboldens me to hazard another test idea. The idea is to get the engine into the critical rpm range without having the engine heavily torqued. I see at least two ways to do this: (1) Drive above the critical rpm and let off the gas. (2) Drive downhill. A result of no noise would support my idea.
Come on, DC, get your asses in gear and get this problem fixed! I want to buy a T&C but will wait until there is evidence that someone is minding the store.
(Apologies if there are two messages like this from me. I tried to check spelling, then edit, and poof, a Microsoft genie ate my message.)
Either (a) or (b) produces no resonance. Furthermore, the 'test' doesn't have to be so severe -- simply cruising on the flat at 2100 steadily OR accelerating slowly on the flat right thru 2100 produces no significant resonance. (The latter is a little hard to do, because the tranny will upshift before you hit 2100 if you accelerate too slowly, so it takes a little practice. But the point is that the less you have your foot in it, the less the resonance.)
(I'll look to others to confirm my experiences above.)
Although this supports your theory, I don't think it rejects the notion of an exhaust system rather than engine mount cause. I say this because when the engine is under load, there is not only more engine torque as you point out, there is also more air/fuel going thru the system.
Comments?
--rolfe.
Since you are obviously 'invested' in the noise issue and are a potential T&C customer, how about hopping down to your local dealer and test driving an AWD and doing your experimenting directly. I have no problem answering your questions, but I just thought this might be more satisfying and/or productive for you.
--rolfe.
I hadn't realized that there was a break-point below the 36,000 mi warranty, but evidently there is.
I pass this on because you, like I, may want to be sure we do all we can to get the noise issue addressed before we lose 'VIP' status.
--rolfe.
Drew
Host
Vans and SUVs message boards
There must be some way to copy all of our posts and send them to a regional dealer rep. for consideration.
Andy
Some of the earlier theories of exhaust or air intake have me thinking... this really could be more of a resonant noise. The air intake would really seem to be too simple but I may poke around tonight and see if I can discover anything more.
It's not unlike my daughter listening to her new CD with the volume on high and the bass turned all the way up : - ).
Rolfe, thank you for the 5 star comment... my dealer has that designation as well.
I live in Toronto and the nights get down to below 32 F. When I start the van in the am there is the strangest noise emitted from underneath. It sounds like a muffled honk sound. Does anyone else get this sound? What might it be?
thx
Blue 2001 T&C LXi - 3.8L - FWD (early model, was a demonstrator, on the lot with 6600 miles on it). Was completely quiet at all engine speeds, no hint of resonance anywhere.
White 2001 T&C LXi - 3.8L - FWD (380miles) - Could hear the start of low volume resonance at 2100 rpm but the window was very narrow and on the highway, it did not set up into the resonating drone my AWD has. The volume was much lower.
Silver 2001 T&C LXi - 3.8L - FWD (100+ miles) - Similar to the White LXi.
I asked the service/tech about the FWD resonance - he acknowledged it was there but felt it was low enough to be deemed acceptable. I agree. And again, he related that he has not had anyone complain about it.
Out of all of this though, I conclude with these thoughts:
- should Chrysler claim this resonance is due to the AWD, I think one could clearly say 'no'. It may have to do with exhaust, engine mounting, etc that is different between AWD and FWD, but this is not noise from the AWD unit itself.
- this sound can be present on FWD to varying (lesser) degrees - but not always. If you are test driving FWDs, look for it and decide if it is acceptable or not. Every person is different. Having driven our AWD van for 4 weeks now, I could be happy with any 3 of the FWDs I drove today... but the blue one would be nicest!
I asked the tech 'how different is the exhaust between AWD and FWD'. He didn't know and didn't offer to run right back to the parts department to start looking. Right now, he is waiting for a call back from his Chrysler contact for an update on Chrylser's position on this problem.
I have a 94 dodge ram which does the exact same thing. When you start it under fairly cold condidtions the horn honks for a quick scecond. I wouldn't worry to much about this, my truck works fine and never had any starting problems. I also have 97 GCES, It honks, only when it's really cold, but the 2001's are a little diffrent.
It starts with post 371 on 12/29. Unfortunately, my original post that got this whole thing started, and perhaps some others, were apparently lost when Edmunds converted its format in the fall.
--rolfe.
I did some additional testing using my 'auto-stick' feature to control engine shifting.
On a level road, locking in 1st or 2nd gear and gradually accelerating through 2100 rpm produces SOME resonance there. But it is much reduced from what I experience with the engine under load.
In fact, under loaded conditions, I can always tell when I'm at 2100 without looking at the tach. In the unloaded conditions above, I could tell sometimes, but had to concentrate on listening.
I continue to believe: this vehicle type (FWD and AWD) has a natural frequency associated with 2100 rpm. How much it resonates depends on how much you excite the system, and on some other unknown factors that seem to vary from vehicle to vehicle.
We owners will never figure it out, but it's fun trying to isolate it!
--rolfe.
It was interesting to see your discussions back and forth on the FWD. I wanted to add for your benefit that I have test drove two FWD Dodge Grand Caravans WITH the 3.8L engine, the towing group, and the load leveling feature, and neither one had the vibration issue at 2100 RPM. I bought the second of the two and have been driving it for a week now. I live in a hilly area with steep inclines in and out of the neighborhood. I am always driving the engine under load on those roads going up without the slightest hint of vibration at the RPM in question. Going downhill I am always switching to Autostick and holding the van in 2nd and 3rd gear to control speed. I frequently go through the 2100 RPM under this condition and have looked for the vibrations ... nothing was ever felt either - subtle or profound. Actually, compared to my other cars (I have a "quite" 2001 Lincoln LS) I am amazed at how quite the Grand Caravan is; it makes the smallest anomaly noticeable, but this vibration is one anomaly I have not detected.
Taking stock of all the previous posts on this subject, it seems that all Town and Country AWD vans had this vibration, and that pgs_28 was the only one that has detected a subtle form of it on the Town & Country FWD.
So, I will ask again the question in my previous post several pages back: has anyone detected this vibration on the Dodge vans - particularly on the Dodge FWDs? Could it be that for some strange reason the Chrysler T&C's have this issue and not the Dodge GC?
Regards.
Thanks for your post on the current financing situation with the GC's. After a lot of checking, I decided not to lease because of the lousy deals being offered - despite the $2600 discount on leases. If one works out the math, these vans are being leased with around 40% residuals on a 3 year lease. This is terrible ... I don't believe that one should pay 60% of the value of these van and then turn it over. This vehicle has everything I need for the next 10 years so it is much better to buy under these conditions.
This is my personal preference, of course. Unless a great lease program is announced tomorrow morning, I am walking into the dealership to pay them off (incidentally, they are trying very hard to get me to bite into a lease because they get payed mucho bucks for them!). The only question I have to answer between now and tomorrow is if I should use some of Peoplefirst.com funds ( they qualified me at 7.39%), or if I should just pay off the car myself. But this is a topic for another forum ....
Thanks again and for corresponding on this topic. A sanity check always helps ....
resonance/vibration improves marginally. I went to one of my kid's hockey tournament about 2 hours away on the weekend. My wife drove and I put the middle quad chairs down, stretched out and watched Dante's Peak on my drop down Audiovox LCD TV set-up. It was absolute heaven. Add to that my pop cooler plugged into the accessory socket and a few chips and my life was heaven. I channeled the audio through the van's stereo system and it blew me away!!!!
I read the post by Abeali. Interesting. I wonder if you have felt the resonance, vibration on any Chrysler product. There is no question that it is there and I also noticed it on a Sport that I drove. I am convinced that it is present to some degree on every vehicle. It may be something that one doesn't notice inless concentrating and looking for the problem. It is somewhat sublte inless you are looking for it. I wish you could hop in my van and drive it. It reminds me of a noise that you notice while you're going to sleep at night and you toss and turn once it is noticed. Not everyone notices it depending on a number of factors. But it is there. I am totally convinced that it has to do with connections (engine mounts) from the drive train to the body and the accelerator cable design that allows for the transference of this vibration to the pedal. I just wish someone in Chrysler would admit to noticing it and give a practical solution to remedy it. Heck I'll even pay to get it resolved.... do I sound desperate???? Thanks for you input on the subject.
Here's a comparison of the two.
http://www.cobizmag.com/nov/pages/wheels/wheels10_23_00.cfm
http://www.canadiandriver.com/testdrives/01grand_caravan.htm
.
Thanks for adding your experiences to the mix.
--rolfe.
I stalls out a couple of times after sitting overnight. Seems to stop when it warms up. Always seems to stall during backup operation or stopping at a stop sign before the vechile warms up.
Also am having some issues with the one of the power sliding doors.
Anyone having these same issues???
I have not specifically had the problems you mention, however, I notice that when I stop at traffic l0ights the rpms go from what should be around 750 to just over 5000. The engine is sputtering abit but it doesn't stall. The dealer blew me off by saying it was normal and as a result of the fan motor coming on. The reality is that it happens even when the fan motor is off. I suspect these 2 problems are related. The doors have worked fine for me. Ihave a 2001 T&C Ltd FWD.