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Another owner with whom I communicate finds it so unacceptable that he is getting rid of the vehicle.
That's why I'm recommending (for those able) that you test drive one.
Does it "disappear?" Nope. In fact, at 8500 miles I'm now hearing a secondary noise at the same rpm. This secondary noise I'd call a rattle -- it sounds a bit like engine ping, but it seems more like something that's gotten loose in the engine compartment, probably due to the vibration.
--rolfe.
Is this vibration/resonance at 2100 rpm problem in all the AWD?
Thanks
It had a nice cloth interior -- I could easily live without the leather!
I was really hoping the climate control would be auto-temp, but it wasn't -- although it was still 3 zone.
Dealer wanted $26,800 and said this was about $500 over invoice and plus an advertising fee (I think invoice is $25, 797 with side air bags and destination).
I read on this board a post about speculation that the prices on the limited and Lxi would have to be adjusted when the EX showed up on the lots.
I figure there is a difference of about $2700 (after rebate) between an EX and a non-loaded Lxi. With leather, an extra power door, home-link, and auto-climate, its a little bit of a stretch but not that munch
A Limited is about $4500 more and I think there are people who would pay for that.
Still, we can always hope for more rebates.
Yes. I say that based on driving several new ones, communicating by email with other owners who have also test driven several, and talking with my dealership.
I did understand from your first post that you were unable to test-drive one. I'd suggest that you consider doing a thorough eval after yours comes in and before you make a final commitment.
As described earlier, find a hill (doesn't have to be steep, just long). Accelerate and hold 2100 rpm and listen/feel. This will be at 30-35 mph. Quickly modulate the pedal slightly to hear the noise come and go. It's a low-frequency droning sound.
You might have someone listen from the 2nd row seat -- I've heard, but can't confirm, that the noise may be more pronounced there.
Also notice that at 2000 and below you won't hear any noise; above 2100 it tapers off more gradually. Then repeat the same tests on a FWD if you want to hear the contrast -- you won't hear the same thing.
--rolfe.
The van I drove was the Town and Country Limited. It was beautiful. I can only hope that I like the LXi nearly as much.
When I went to pick up it had a paint imperfection. Dealer said that all new chrysler on the lot would also have one?
Does any know if this is true? HE said that he would look for another perfect car without paint problem?
Now that spring in MN is approaching with daily highs in the 30-38 degree range, the harsh resonant characteristic of my van is somewhat reduced. However since early January until this past week, I have been living with a resonant drone (especially at 65-68 MPH) that few would find acceptable for a luxury minivan.
Personally, I like the T&C minivans. I have driven many AWDs to try and find one without this characteristic. I haven't been successful. Per my numerous discussions with Chrysler, all the AWDs currently do this. My intent is merely to let potential AWD owners know what they may be getting into. If you live in a climate with sustained cold winter temperatures, please be aware that the noise you hear in the warmth of spring, may become more pronounced next winter.
Of course, both the minivans and an individual's personal tolerance, vary greatly. I post this only for awareness to help others avoid possible future 'surprises'.
Regarding the effect of tires -- I will give you two reasons why I don't believe tires are an issue. First, the resonance is present with both stock Michelin MX4 tires and Michelin Arctic Alpin snow tires on my vehicle. The only difference is that at 68 or 70 mph (equivalent to 2100 rpm in overdrive), the somewhat higher tire noise of the Alpins tends to mask the resonance. At other speeds (meaning lower gears), the 2100 rpm resonance sounds the same on both sets of tires.
Second, the resonance is independent of speed (road speed and therefore tire rotational speed). It is only a function of rpm (provided you are putting a load on the engine, as in climbing an incline or accelerating).
Regarding what your dealer told you, if it were a tire issue that is already solved, I don't' think that District Sales Managers would still be telling folks that Engineering is still investigating with no projected resolution in sight.
--rolfe.
But we do love our AWD and don't find the noise very objectionable. . .it still is a problem though.
According the Chrysler, the EX uses IR sensors to keep you at the same temperature, but the sliders for temp on the EX don't act like a thermastat.
So I'm still unclear if the EX has auto temp control or not. Maybe someone who has an EX could let me know?
Thank You.
True, the van is fantastic, and otherwise very quiet, except for wind noise. I do drive at high speeds - 70-80, and maybe this is unavoidable. I really think the antenna is at fault, although I will find out soon when I remove the roof cross bars.
Interestingly, the Honda Civic which is a way smaller car outscored almost all vehicles except the luxury Mecedes Benz.
http://www.dateline.msnbc.com
#2. Trolls.
#1. Again... trolls.
---
Hotspur, perhaps you can explain to us why you changed your user name from the one you were previously using named Capecodder? Forgot your password, or do you think you're actually fooling somebody?
The best way to remove these minuscule pieces of metal is by clay barring the entire car. The special clay is offered by Zaino, McGuires, Magic Clay and other brands. With a little experience, the whole van can be washed and clay barred in about an hour. This is the best preparation for the polish of your choice. You won't believe how smooth and clean the surface will be.
This technique is great after a winter of snow and grime.
Can anybody comment on the dealer installed VCP-Monitor (LCD TV on a overhead console) add-on? What is the going dealer price and are there other alternatives on the aftermarket, that match fit and finish?
Thanks.
Ed
We who own the ultimate comfort vehicle...A DC minivan...do not consider the ability to haul home 10 sheets of sheetrock each week from Home Depot by flipping down the Magic Seat the ONLY feature of a minivan. For DC owners, comfort and convenience is more important than to have our minivan double as a cargo van each weekend.
I am always amazed at how CR, Edmunds, etc are awed and overwhelmed by that old station wagon folding into the floor trick...now called the "Magic Seat".
I have a couple of questions.
1. In one post you recommended driving uphill and holding about 2100 ram to induce the problem. However I have also seen posts that say cruising at highway speeds (65-70mph) puts the drive train in the same range and the problem is evident. Does both of these situations cause the problem? I would think driving up an extended incline puts the drivetrain under more load than maintaining a cruising speed and so I'm curious if the drivetrain needs to be under load for this to happen or just be turning at the indicated rpm?
2. Vibration vs resonance. I've heard this problem described both ways. I've been unable to drive an AWD van yet so this is why I'm trying to get a better picture of the issue. Is this sympton like having a wheel out of balance, something you would feel? Or, is it more of a tonal frequency phenomenon and hence something you hear? Is it both of these?
For instance, our 95 Volvo has a quirck in that if you are driving at 35-40mph with the sunroof open the air passing over the opening creates a harmonic disturbance inside the car (it has to do with the shape of the opening btw). The effect is a 'thumping' sound, like a helicopter hovering directly overhead. This is something you hear, and maybe feel in your ears but it really isn't a vibration that you feel thru the steering column, gas pedal etc.
Can you say as to which of these the 2100 rpm issue is more like?
Apologies for the somewhat long post but appreciative of the input.
-- BKS
Regarding your first question, cruising in an AWD at 65-70 mph once the transmission 'locks-up' puts you in the 2100 RPM range. The noise heard here is the same type that the van will exhibit in any gear at 2100 RPM. In the lower gears (1,2,3), normal driving situations rarely result in sitting at 2100 RPM. In this case, you will hear the noise briefly as the engine goes through 2100 RPM but it is quiet on either side. In the higher gear ratios, engine RPM varies less with speed, and the load on the engine is also increased - thus the vans will stay within the 2100 RPM range longer and you will hear the noise continuously all the time they are in it. Increased load results in increased volume. In my van, cruising at 65-70 up even the slightest incline causes a noticeable increase in volume. Rolfe's technique of driving uphill achieves the same thing, you just don't have to be on the highway going as fast.
Vibration vs Resonance - you will feel a small vibration. It is nothing so severe as a wheel out of balance. In terms of vibrations, it is very slight and is of a high frequency. It can often be felt through the gas petal, if you sit in the middle seats, reach down and rest your hands on the metal pedestal under the cushion. You'll feel it. The vibration is really not a problem however. It doesn't change much with speed or engine loading. If there wasn't a corresponding noise, I suspect we'd never be talking about it.
The problem comes from the sound. Hum out-load to yourself at a low frequency continuously. Or imagine having a small hole in your muffler. The sound is more like that. For a point of reference, if I travel down the highway and turn the van's fan on high, I can still very clearly hear this low frequency resonance (or hum, or drone) throughout the passenger compartment. I can turn on the radio - its still there. On a cold day (20s or below), there is more resonance in the sound. Imagine having your head in an oil drum and humming loadly to yourself. When its warmer, you only have the sound to contend with vs the harsh resonance.
It is not at all like the low frequency thumps of a helicopter.
I hope you're able to test drive an AWD and listen for yourself. Only then can you reach your own decision as to whether this is acceptable for you or not. Good Luck!
>>1. In one post you recommended driving uphill and holding about 2100 rpm to induce the problem. However I have also seen posts that say cruising at highway speeds (65-70mph) puts the drive train in the same range and the problem is evident. Does both of these situations cause the problem?
Answer: Both cause the problem. In the former case, your speed will be in the low 30mph range, so there is less wind noise and road noise and the problem is very evident. Also, this may be an easier test to perform, depending on your terrain (I live near Seattle -- hilly). I recommend modulating (or pumping) the accelerator every second or so to hear the noise come and go. Don't stomp it or hold it so much that your speed changes, just your rpm.
In the latter case, 68 mph or so corresponds to 2100 rpm in overdrive. However, in my vehicle, the noise is considerably masked by the road and wind noise at 68 mph. But other reliable sources (also owners) report that at the higher speed it is VERY annoying, even intolerable for extended periods.
The two critical factors are: 2100 rpm, regardless of which gear you are in; and some load on the engine.
>>2. Vibration vs resonance. ... Is this sympton like having a wheel out of balance, something you would feel? Or, is it more of a tonal frequency phenomenon and hence something you hear?
Answer: It's not at all like a wheel out of balance, it is a tonal freqency thing that you hear. I call it a resonance, because I have a technical background. That term may not be familiar to all. I claim it is quite sharply "tuned". It will actually start at exactly half way between the 2000 tick and the 2100 tick on the tach where it is maximum volume, then gradually diminish as you increase rpms toward 2600 or so. Less technical folks call it a "drone", and I think that is also a good description. You can feel it in the accelerator pedal as a vibration, but you'd have to be looking for it. It's the sound that you'll notice.
It is steady; it is not a beat frequency; it does not pulsate. It is NOT like your sunroof example.
I cannot tell what is resonating. It could believe it's in the intake manifold, the exhaust system, or in the engine or drivetrain.
I hope I've answered your questions; if not, try me again.
FWIW, I'm continuing to pursue this with my dealership. They cannot fix it, and acknowledge that. They have one other customer with the same complaint. I'm pressing them to find out from an authoritative D-C source a) what the priority is for fixing this problem; b) whether someone in Engineering is actively pursuing it; c) whether and when they expect a fix. Understandably, my dealership and the zone rep are unable to reach the appropriate people in Detroit because of the current shake-up in DCX. Until the dust settles and people know what their new job titles and responsibilities are, things will remain cloudy, I'm afraid.
The encouraging things are that D-C is "well aware of the problem" according to several dealers and zone reps, and that the problem is acknowledged to be present on all 2001 AWDs. The discouraging things are that D-C claims they have always had a resonance problem with AWDs (it's just more noticeable in the newer, quieter van), that D-C is having severe financial difficulties, and that there is no hard evidence, such as a TSB, that there is or will be a fix.
My belief is that the "noise level" from owners and dealers will have to increase sufficiently for this to get high enough priority to get fixed. (We all know that if wheels were falling off, they'd get right on it!) I certainly think that we consumers are greatly empowered through our ability to share information via the Internet. It's already changing how merchants have to deal with us.
--rolfe.
In addition, has anyone else had problems with excessive rattling/squeaking from the side doors and center quad seats?
I have an appointment this Thursday to have these looked at.
While I love the van I am concerned. 20 minutes after taking delivery the driver side power door failed. The dealer ended up replacing the in door motor and computer control module in order to correct the problem. This was somewhat disconcerting, but I will say that my dealer has been quite good at addressing the issues. So far anyway....
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/ivoq/default.htm
http://www.carseverything.com/news/details.html?NewsID=02856
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Yes I noticed the issue with the AWD and both your descriptions (posts 797, 798) were spot on but expected it to be worse. Maybe I'm not as picky as I thought. If the symptoms occurred across a wider RPM range I could see it being an issue. Granted the ambient temperature was 45-50 degrees on Friday afternoon so it was certainly on the warmer side. It will certainly make my decision tougher since when the time comes. I'm most likely 6-9 months away from a purchase.
-- BKS
I've had three Hondas - my current one being a 99 Accord sedan. I think they make some fine products that are economical to own (I really miss my Prelude!). However, with the current Odyssey, I feel the Honda product does not offer all that I want in a vehicle that I average 2+ hrs in when I travel. It feels like too much of a 'basic box' when compared to the Chyrsler. My purchase decision would be much more difficult if Honda offered some features I find useful in an environment that is more inviting. Also, the current Odyssey has had problems unchararistic to Honda, showing that just because it has an "H" in the grill doesn't mean its bullet-proof.
If Mr. Wadlaw wants to draw direct comparisons on price and content then he should not have taken a *loaded* Caravan and compared it to an Odyssey.
-- BKS
Right now, as long as I can converse with my 3 year old sitting in the back row I am pleased.
The April 2001 CR shows the 1999 Ody as having much worse reliability for hardware and worse than average reliability for electrical. Meanwhile, Caravan has no reliability rating worse
than average. Then look at the T&C 2WD: NO reliability rating lower than "Better than average".