BMW 5-Series Sedans

brave1heart · January 2002

"Your rating scale goes up to 13?!?"
"Yeah"
"Why not make 13 10?"
"Because 13 is 3 more than 10"

)

I think many of us have considered selling the house, wife, & kids but we still come up short for an M5. I am monitoring their market value and if it comes close to an M5's, I would consider robbing the pizza delivery truck to make up the difference

)

jhammell · January 2002

I have to admit to getting a great chuckle regarding all of the postings regarding the 530i/540i comparisons. Either way you end up with a great car !

We just completed the process of evaluating and purchasing (ordering) our first car together a 2002 530i 5-speed manual Sterling Grey with Grey interior. I have been contemplating this purchase for almost 17 years (since my last purchase) so we had the list down to the Audi A6 2.7T and a BMW 5 Series. After test driving both (try fining an A6 2.7T 6-speed manual to drive) cars we both choose the BMW. I knew that the 530i was probably the way to go and we confirmed this with a back-to-back test drive between the 525i and the 530i. We learned that we could also build a "better" 530i that we could enjoy more than a 525i over a long term ownership period of ten years or more.

After determining our options (pp, sp, xenon's, folding rear seats, pdc, cwp and premium sound) I did look at a comparable 540i 6-speed. That car would cost us $9,950 more (M wheels, cwp, folding rear seats, pdc, gas guzzler tax and premium sound) on the sticker price, more insurance, more gas and more car than we really need. Don't get me wrong as I consider myself a "car guy" (one with other expensive hobbies) and know from driving the 540i 6-speed and a M5 that there is nothing more entertaining to drive than a car with more displacement. If we had won the lottery then none of this logic would apply and I would have bought an M5, a Porsche 996 etc. a long time ago !

The bottom line for us is that we got what we wanted at a price we could afford (almost) and look forward many years of great driving experiences along the way.

rgwl · January 2002

I just bought a 2002 530i . Great Car. After the warranty period , what can I expect the yearly maint/repair costs for the car to be on avg. ?

snagiel · January 2002

It's tough to estimate these things, but generally speaking you may want to consider quality after-market extended warranties. I've heard more than one repeat-BMW owner recommend never to own a Bimmer not under warranty, and I think there's good logic in that. While I wouldn't expect the car to fall apart like an old Jaguar, even many reasonable wear & tear items (brakes, clutch, electrical snafus, radiator, suspension bits, etc.) can add up pretty fast. I'm not sure how extensive those warranties cover such items, but I'd definitely look into it if I was planning on owning the car well beyond the manufacturer's warranty.

I think you can do a search on intellichoice for the ownership costs they compute. But I'm sure it'd be a hell of a lot less than on a 540! (Just kidding, riez)

6_speed · January 2002

This reminds me of the times when I was shopping for a 5 series both in 1994 and in 2001.

Back in 1994, I test drove a 1990 525 and a 1990 535 (there was no 1990 M5). The price difference when new was about $8k, I think. The price difference after 4 years was about $4k.

I bought the 535 over the 525 because of 3 factors: HP and Torque advantage and 'stronger' engine technology.

525: 168 HP / 164 torque
535: 208 HP / 225 torque

On paper, nothing is obvious but I was won over after a couple of test drives, especially on on-ramps and merging traffic to feel the difference (i.e. kick in the tummy).

Fast forward to year 2001. I was looking to replace my 535 and started looking at 530, 540 and M5. The M5 was easily $10k over MSRP, so that ruled it out. Had it being available at MSRP, I would have gone with it (of course after selling everything else I have

)

So, it was down to 530M vs 540M. Again, the 540 won me over with the same traits - higher HP and torque and a V-8 to boot!

530: 225 HP / 214 torque
540: 282 HP / 324 torque

Price difference when new was around $7k (sorry riez) but it wasn't even an important factor considering the broader grins I get from a 540.

But I was also looking forward to the 2004 5 series iteration, and just like riez, opt for a used 540 instead.

Had I to buy new, I would still have gone with the 540 for the exact same reasons.

This is not to say the 530 is no good, just different strokes for different people. I'm sure an M5 owner would say something similar about 540 vs M5 to 'justify' the $15k MSRP diff.

Bottomline is you get what you pay and you pay what you get (higher insurance, gas consumption, etc).

rgwl · January 2002

One more question, (thanks, sangiel) . I have the low profile sport tires on my 530i. Never had these kind of tires before. How long might they last, mileage-wise. I am usually easy on my cars.

snagiel · January 2002

The sport tires are fairly soft, so I wouldn't expect much longevity out of them. My 530 is only 3 weeks old, so I can't extrapolate an estimate from mine, but I'd venture to guess they'll last you 20-35k miles, depending on the usual factors.

compwhiz · January 2002

They last 20-25k on average. Don't even THINK you will get more than 25k out of them, unless you love driving on bald tires. Sorry, that't the reality of ownership. I had 17" Z-rated tires on my 3000GT - paid $2000k for tires over 52k miles, and would've paid another $500 now if I hadn't just sold it. Now I'm enjoying my brand spanking new 530i with 16" tires - it's fine by me, especially during Chicago winters.

rgwl · January 2002

Thanks, Snagiel and Compwhiz. FYI, I bought my 530i only 10 days ago. Hopefully the reliablity of the 5-series is better than 5-10 yrs ago, as the consumer magazines/reports indicate.. I live in SoCal , where the weather def. will help.

john01 · January 2002

Is it "V" or "Z" rated tires on the 530 spp? My last set of V rated Michelin XGT-V tires on Integra lasted 57,000 miles even though the tires rated to go 30,000. I did not drag race it, but had fun with it, and was surprised I got that much out of it. I got Kumho at about 120,000 after Goodyear RS-A, which were not very impressive. Is it the negative camber on the Bimmers along with the suspension setting that only gives you such short mileage? I vaguely remember hearing something like that. I hear Porsche 993 and NS-X are lucky to get beyond 10,000 to 15,000 on their rears.

chrism123 · January 2002

How does your car, with the 16" wheels, handle the winter conditions. I'm about 3-weeks away from taking delivery of my 02 530ia (built but not put on the boat, yet). Curious if I need to use snow tires.

After reading this message board over the last 4 weeks I wish that I had selected the Sports package (SP). Before ordering my car, I went to 3 dealers and non had a 5-series with the SP option. Therefore it was difficult to know if the SP was worth the extra $2300. Oh well, perhaps next time.

Chris

riez · January 2002

530iM is certainly a nice car. If I bought one new, I'd be leery of crossing the $45,000 mark. I like performance and safety over luxury. That means I'd want to go for Sport Pkg, Xenons, and rear air bags but give up the Premium Pkg and no Premium Sound.

Anyone who just bought a 530i or is thinking of one should read the recent Consumer Reports issue in which they say it is the best car they have ever tested. And their reliability has been good in CR's surveys. This bears out what Motor Trend said about used 5 Series. You won't go wrong with darn near any current platform 5 Series.

snagiel... Don't worry, I have a great sense of humor.

compwhiz · January 2002

Chris,

530 is a JOY to drive, even in winter conditions. I come from 3000GT SL with 17" Z-rated tires that I drove for 4.5 years. 530 definitely performs better in this weather on 16" tires. Interestingly enough, I test drove 530 with the Sports package(that's the only thing that was available on the lot of one dealer). It was a nice ride, but when I drive my car now, nothing really comes to my mind that makes me regret not going for the Sport package(well, maybe the seats and the steering wheel a bit). At any rate, I wanted a bit more luxurious ride. The beauty of 530 "stock" tires is that they're all-season, so they're fine all year around. You'd be spending extra $1200 on 4 rims/tires if you had bought Sport package, cuz EVERYONE says it's miserable to drive 530i with Sport 17" tires in winter, and I though during my test drive that it handled much better than my 3000GT.

Sadly enough, my situation was that nobody around had a 530i 5spd WITHOUT the Sport package(short of ordering it). Since I sold my car and didn't have a luxury of waiting 8 weeks, I had my dealer trade his stock cars for the one I wanted. I have 530i 5spd with Premium and CWP. I wanted Xenons, but at the end it turned out that the car description had Xenons entered in the system, but when I picked it up, it turned out Xenons were not on it.

First I freaked out, then I realized that I had no other options, and decided to capitalize on the situation by knocking more $$$ off MSRP. I ended up paying $42k for my 530, and it's great. Puts a smile on my face every time I look at it - and then there is always the drive....:)

mshriro · January 2002

I'm looking into buying an M5, and have a few questions.

1. According to past posts, 540's are available at some discount. Do dealers discount M5s?
2. If you buy a new M5 on ED, does it work like other orders where it doesn't come out of the dealer's allocation or are M5s different?
3. Edmunds lists a 2000 M5 for the Dallas, Tx area as available for $63k. Does the M badge inflate that?

snagiel · January 2002

1. You won't find discounts on new M5's, but at least far fewer dealers are marking them up like they used to. However, due to the economic situation, if you look around in the bimmer.org and ebaymotors site, you'll see quite a few minimally used (<5000 miles) new M5's available for sale.

2. No, ED is not considered part of the dealer's allocation, but there's still a wait. But, last I checked, the M cars are not available for ED (or, at least, not any discount like the other models enjoy).

3. $63k sounds reasonable for an '00 M5, but I'm sure you'd have better luck with a private sale than through a dealer, who may very likely mark it up.

Good luck.

dantlo · January 2002

When I returned my 528 sports back in Sept, the 17" tires had over 30500 miles on them and the dealer was shocked that they still look brand new. My wife drove that car and I rotated and balanced every 5K miles. Very important. My neighbour bought the car from us. He still has those tires on. The car must have about 36000 miles by now.
Dan

snagiel · January 2002

They still looked new at 30k miles?! That's crazy...do you take turns at 5mph?

Rotating tires helps even out wear, but it doesn't reduce it. In fact, BMW recommends against it.

jim52 · January 2002

I just talked to a dealer who said that BMW raised the invoice on the 530 starting 1/1/02 leaving the MSRP the same. He said they took away about 2.5% of their profit in doing so. Does anyone know if this is true and if so what the new invoice #s are?

abyoung · January 2002

Yes to invoice price going up: 1% on base and options.

No to taking away 2.5% of their profit; dealers either offer less discount from MSRP, or keep the same over invoice pricing.

You should still about around $1,500 over invoice.

jim52 · January 2002

I'd be thrilled to get that. I haven't started to push yet but no one I've talked to here (near Philadelphia) has even come close to that so far. The increase in invoice caught me off guard. I don't remember anyone talking about that on this board.

snagiel · January 2002

Agreed; in Atlanta average has been between $2k and $3k over invoice; I paid $2500 and was happy with that. One dealer I talked to in Dallas, TX (where I work during the week) wouldn't budge from MSRP. I laughed and walked away.

parrow · January 2002

Ten days ago I paid $1,700 over invoice for a 2002 530i, step, sport, premium, xenon. The dealer was Cutter Motors in Santa Barbara, CA.

cmr530i · January 2002

I have a 2001 530i that I took delivery on in May of last year. I have had to replace a brake light and a turn signal light because they burned out. Has anyone else experienced this? It seems like such a short time to own a car and have lights burn out. Even though they are covered under warranty, it is an inconvenience and a nuisance.

shipo · January 2002

My 1999 328i lost two taillights after about 18 months. I have also had to replace these same bulbs in several VWs and Audis that I have had over the years. I replace them myself for a total of about $2.00 per bulb. As a result, in now just keep a few spares in my trunk.

In years gone by, I used to buy heavier duty replacement (1175 vs. 1034) bulbs for my cars and found that they draw so much extra power that at idle, at night, with the turn signals on, all the rest of the lights on the car would dim with each flash of the signal. Kind of silly looking. I now stay with the OEM spec bulb and deal with intermittent failures.

Best Regards,
Shipo

530bmw · January 2002

I paid $1700 over invoice for 530ia with sp,pp,and cwp when I bought the car last month. I live in D.C. area.

530bmw · January 2002

Is it normal for a BMW dealership to pass along MACO(advertising fee) to buyers? When I bought my car they charged me $200 for MACO on top of the invoice mark-up. Is it negotiable or can it be waived by dealership?

Also, I was told by my dealer that a trucking fee($450-$700) will be paseed along to a buyer whenever they have go and get a car from another dealership. I was told the same thing when I went to a Nissan dealer.

snagiel · January 2002

Well, EVERYTHING is negotiable, but dealer love adding fees on top of agreed-upon prices to increase their profits. I personally find it filthy, but it's part of the business.

Yes, I've heard many dealers charging for MACO (price usually $50-200), but on my fiancee's car (a $16,500 Altima), I talked the dealer out of it (since we agreed on a "final" price before hand, and I told him flatly we refused to pay above that inclusive amount, and after a "let me talk to my manager" bit, he acquiesced).

As for trucking fees, even $450 seems very steep to me. Destination charge from the manufacturer (i.e. GERMANY) is $600, so $450 for a cross-town transport seems excessive. Besides, dealer's swap/trade inventory all the time based on customer preferences, so they should subsidize some of those costs. If you feel strongly enough about it, you can just call other area dealers to see who has the closest thing to what you're looking for, and then just go there.

Good luck.

abyoung · January 2002

The MACO fee is hard to get out of because the dealer has to pay this, so if he is discounting it, it means he is just reducing his markup on some other line item. The MACO fees are area dependent; I don't know how to discover them to make sure the dealer isn't inflating it. I believe the LA area fee is 1%.

A Trucking fee of $450 - $700 is ridiculous. Here the dealer is trying more profit. I think the typical in-area cost to the dealer for transportation is about $50.

530bmw · January 2002

SNAGIEL, ABYOUNG
In my case, it is out of state and I agree with you two that it is too steep. I know it will cost them to go get a car but I just want to find out how much and how legit it is. I also think that any dealer would prefer to sell what they have on their lot over swapping with the others, so they quote a high fee for trucking to discourage and force a buyer to get what they have in iventory.

cmr530i · January 2002

Thank you for your comments on the bulbs.

rnarala12 · January 2002

How much over invoice did you pay for 530iM SPP Euro delivery? None of the dealers here in NC want to deal with anything less than MSRP for such a delivery. TIA

millerro3 · January 2002

It depends on how far they have to go to get this car. If they're going 300 miles, $500 doesn't seem all that unreasonable.

If you really don't want to pay for it to be trucked, tell the dealership to send their 'lot guy' to go pick it up and drive it back, they shouldn't charge you for that.

johnrph1 · January 2002

I am considering buying a 2002 525 Wagon. (540 is out of the question). This will be driven primarily by my wife and we keep our vehicles for a long time as she does not drive that much. Questions are: leather vs leatherette with kids?
If leather is best, get premium package? Are moon roofs reliable?

My definites are xenon headlights, cold weather package, automatic. My wife currently drives an accord, so the 525 should be a power boost over that. Any suggestions, resale value is not a big concern as we will keep this car long enough that resale value won't matter.

Thanks in advance, also any dealer recommendations in So Cal ?

metmdx · January 2002

Took a 525 non-sport for drive today. Was pleasantly surprised at the handling. See no need for sport. Seemed to have enough "pep" for around town, but hi-way was definitely lacking. I could see with a couple of people & luggage where it would really feel sluggish. Will have to consider 530 (if at all, as over 40k is stretching the $$ a little too thin). Love the car though.....

metmdx

cmr530i · January 2002

Try Pacific BMW in Glendale. Ask for Keith Kruser. He was very willing to beat what I thought was a good quote from Long Beach BMW and a few others.
I have the premium sport package with leather on my 530i and have two boys ages 8 and 14. It cleans up easily and looks and feels so much richer than the leatherette. I was worried about scuffs, but none yet to be had. Since you have children I would highly recommend the rear and side sunshades if the 525 wagon is available with that option. My boys use them daily to keep the sun out of their faces and the rear shade is a lifesaver when the sun is glaring in from the back window. I have owned three cars with moonroofs, two Nissan and my current BMW. I had to replace a motor in one of my Nissan moonroofs after about two years. Fortunately it was covered under warranty. The other Nissan is 12 years old and the moonroof is still in good working order. I hope the same will be true of my BMW moonroof. Hope this helps and good luck.

riez · January 2002

metmdx... Did you test drive 525iA or 525iM? I can certainly understand the issues if you drove the automatic, though I would think it might lack punch around town as well. But I'm thinking the manual version should've been moderately spritely on highway. Just downshift from 5th to 3rd if you need to pass.

Don't be too hard on the 5 Series, esp. 6 cyl automatics. You should test drive and read published road tests of comparable cars with their smaller engines and automatic transmissions. For example, noticed in latest R&T and C&D the new Cadillac CTS with 3.2L engine and 5-speed is achieving about 7.0 sec 0-60 mph. Will be interesting to see what the automatic version will do. Maybe 8.0-8.5 seconds? The C&D driver test is a comparison test with other manual transmission sport sedans under $40,000.

riez · January 2002

Filled up my '98 540i 6-speed today. 92 octane Amoco Ultimate. She returned yet another tankful in excess of 24 mpg. Actually 24.4 mpg. Doing mostly interstate a 74 mph and some 2-lane county highways at 64 mph. A great fun yet relaxed cruiser. How many nearly 2 ton cars with 282 HP and its kind of blistering performance can get that kind of highway fuel economy?

drosex · January 2002

You should also try Cutter Motors in Santa Barbara. They beat the price of all dealers in San Diego by enough of a margin to make me go up there to get the car. I had also checked several dealers in LA and Cutter beat them as well.

Send a request for a quote to their internet site (Cutter Motors) and see how it stacks up. I dealt with Franco Karzog.

jim52 · January 2002

I've asked this before but don't think I got much feedback. Since I'm getting ready to take the plunge I figured I throw it out there again. Has anyone had any experiences with multiple security deposits with BMW Finance (particularly at lease end)? It seems to be an excellent return on your money but that assumes that you get it all back at lease end. When trying to understand why BMW would offer such better rates, my conclusion was that they feel that if you have more skin in the game due to your higher potential exposer you are more likely to return the car in mint condition thus boosting its resale value for the finance company (or at least reducing their re-conditioning costs). My concern is that since they'll be in possession of a few extra grand of my money, they'll be sure to use it for things such as brand new tires, brakes, fixing small dings, etc. In the end, instead of keeping my 600 sd they we'll keep much more and the extra return I thought I was getting goes down the toilet. Any thoughts? Am I just being paranoid?

snagiel · January 2002

I assume you're talking about a lease here. If so, verify with your dealer one thing I'd been warned about: That security deposit(s) are not refundable in the event of an accident.
Aside from that, you're usually better off investing the money on your own and paying off monthly leases from that instead of paying off as much as possible up front, which is antithetical to how leases are designed to operate.

cbat · January 2002

considering buying a 530 heard changes are coming for '03. anyone know of an information source to determine what changes are coming. trying to decide if i should buy now or wait. thanks in advance for any help

jim52 · January 2002

From what I'm told, you can lower the MF by .0001 for each sd you put down. If you put down 10 sd's (say 6,500) the mf goes down by .001. This would effectively lower the monthly lease payment by about $82 per month or $984 per year. This is around 15% annual return on my money. I doubt I could do as well on my own. Again, all of this assumes I get my investment back (the 6,500) at the end of the lease.

snagiel · January 2002

Most likely, BMW will introduce the car in Europe Spring 2003, with a summer/fall rollout there, and it will arrive in the US in the late fall or winter 2004 as an '04 model. As for details, not much is known yet. Presumably, engines offered will include the 4.4 liter "valvetronic" engine from the new 745i, as well as a 3 or 3.2 liter 6-inline version as well (325 and perhaps 250 horsepower, respectively). Expect some styling cues from the new 7-series, but BMW may clean it up some based on the controversy it's generated with the new 7. And the iDrive will likely be made an option as well.

Frankly, all I'm hoping for, aside from the new engines, is lighter weight and an improved, DVD, touchscreen-based navigation system.

pgill · January 2002

I opted for multiple deposit option for last 2 cars I leased. One with MBCC and the other with BMW FS. My understanding is that multiple deposit is treated exactly the same as regular (single) deposit. I believe at the lease turn in, the excess wear-and-tear inspection will not be different because you have multiple deposits. In fact, the inspector wouldn't have any idea you have multiple deposits on your vehicle and have incentives to identify additional flaws. I haven't turned in either vehicle yet, so I wouldn't know for sure, but I don't anticipate such low handed tactics from BMW or MB. Also, multiple deposit is not like a down payment on a lease which you would lose in case of a total loss. Even if you total your vehicle, you will get your deposit back (just like any other deposit).

I went with the multiple deposits since it offers about 13 - 15% return TAX FREE without any (or very little) risk. Yes, it requires a lump sum of money which defeats one of the biggest benefits of a lease, but I'd treat additional money you get from investments same as money you have to pay less on your lease payments. Also, if this is not your first BMW leased through BMW FS, they waive the first security deposit (i.e., you get the lower MF of 10 security deposit for 9 security deposit). Back in 1998 or 1999 I may have thought I could do better in the stock market, but I doubt you can find better rate of return for investments adjusted for tax and risk.

I think BMW FS and others offer this since it reduces the risk lessor will default and they can put the multiple deposits to work for them (i.e., invest the cash and earn a return). I'm sure they have some financial analysts or accountants who calculated all this and came up with MF reduced for each security deposit.

Just my $0.02.

millerro3 · January 2002

the max rate reduction will be nine(.0009)basis points, so if youput down 10 deposits the first one doesn't affect the rate. If you're a previous BMW FS customer and have the initial deposit waived, you can put down up to 9 deposits, with a corresponding rate reduction

hnn · January 2002

cbat,

See following URL for early look of 5 series

http://www.bmw2002.co.uk/news.htm

search for "5-Series". I am not quite sure I like the design of the rear. Hnn

alphmac · January 2002

I've been wanting to do this for 8 years and am ready to purchase my first BMW - a 530i. Looking for opinions on a couple of options - the premium sound system and the lumbar seats. Also, does anyone have experience with pricing in the Chicago area?

jim52 · January 2002

Thanks for the info. If you have the cash available, and the alternative is to keep it in a money market or CD over the next three years, it seems like a no brainer. Are there any other experiences out there?

snagiel · January 2002

Good decision; My '02 530i is barely three weeks old, and it's far and away the best car I've ever owned (albeit the most expensive as well).

As for your questions: First, the premium sound system has generated some debate about whether it's worth it or not. I'm not a high-end audiophile, but I've spent a few thousand on my home theater system and appreciate good accoustics. I did order the premium sound, and am very happy with it. It's not perfect, and some argue that for the same price ($1200) you can add after-market speakers/woofers/amps that'll sound better, but I preferred going the factory OEM route and haven't regretted it.

And the lumbar seats: Yes, they're good, but I'd steer you towards the sport package instead. I know the roads in Chicago aren't the best, but the SP is only marginally harsher than the standard suspension yet allows the car to handle with far more balance, precision, and control. Not to mention, the steering wheel, seats, and wheels are far better. It truly makes the car a sports car. I can't emhasize enough how good it is. But, alas, yes, the lumbars are worthwhile. I'd highly recommend you test drive the different configurations and see for yourself. Find a dealer who'll let you see what the SP is about, and I guarantee you won't look back.

jwilson1 · January 2002

How does the security deposit work so that an accident doesn't effect it?

Sorry to be dense, I guess.

Take care.
J. W.

BMW 5-Series Sedans

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