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BMW 5-Series Sedans

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Comments

  • 9186089991860899 Member Posts: 3
    I flew into Paris back in 9/2000 and took the DB overnight train to Munich. Arrived 7:30 Appx. to Munchen. After a couple days in Austria, Fussen and we drove up to up via Stuttgart to Karlsrhue to Heidelburg. The point is, I want to stay in German autobahn as long as can for 2 reasons:
    1) Obviosuly, speed limit. German doesn't have one, but the French does.
    2) German autobahn are wider and best of all. Free!! (you pay in French autobahn for miles traveled, bring a credit card!! :-))

    Before anyone ask, I didn't really care about the break in period, as I don't keep my BMW's long enough to change the first round of oil. Besides, The BMW reps in Munich told me to relax and enjoy the car, BMW are much better build car then anyone here on this board knows.

    Yeah, FYI Reiz, I bought 5 bimmers in the last 30 months (6 if you count my M5, but that's a keeper). And I've been able to sell each and everyone of my Bimmers for more than I paid for the car. That essentially allows me to recover the money I spend in traveling for a week w/ the wife. So please don't give me your BS about not being able to save money w/ Euro delivery. I have NO interest trying to convert you to a ED beliver. After all, If everyone is a believer, then I won't be able to turn my cars over as esaily. Then I will actually have to PAY for my semi-annual vacation out of my pocket. So believe what you will.

    Back to Paris, for those of you who are planning for ED, do your self a big favor, select the Navigation option. Yes, I know you are probably not a believer in Nav system, all I can tell you is that it is WELL worth it!! Take it from the one who has done it many times.

    Driving in Paris in your new car can be nerve wrecking. You have to be aggresive and not being affariad of step on the gas. Keep in mind that if you leave a gap, then someone will squeeze in there. BMW offers a comprehensive insurance w/ zero deductble, no question ask type of insurance. All at no cost to you, so do drive w/ a piece of mind.

    btw, I also stayed at Hotel Jedermann, Nice place, with very reasonable rate (inclds an authetic Bavaria Breakfast). I highly recommended.

    beewang
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Joseph40,

    Actually, I am leaving for Munich with my wife the day after tax day, we are scheduled to pick my 530i up on 17-Apr, and then take a leisurely drive on the two lane back roads to Paris for a long weekend with friends and family. Needless to say, I intend to have a route already mapped out directly to a parking garage, where the 530i will spend its tenure in Paris. ;-)

    Pap5,

    Sounds like you had a wonderful trip, I like the idea of the Museum passes, the last time I was there (1985) they either did not have them, or I did not hear of them, either way, I stood in the rain. ;-)

    530bmw,

    Last night, while I was waiting for my car in a garage at 56th and 7th, I noticed a new S500 sitting next to a 745i, so I just walked around both cars, and made some mental comparisons. All in all, IF I was in the market for such a car (trust me, even if I could afford one of them (I can't), I would still rather have my 530i), I have to admit it, the Mercedes-Benz would easily win out over the BMW. While the BMW may be the most technically advanced of the two, the MB wins hands down as far as looks goes, both inside and out.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • bmw323isbmw323is Member Posts: 410
    I believe the web site of mats.com (WeatherTech) has very good rubber mats and trunk liners. I have not bought them, but I know others that have. They advertise in most of the car mags. Their phone number is 800 441-6287.
  • 530bmw530bmw Member Posts: 130
    I am with you on that, even if I could afford one I would not get 745i. If someone gives me the car for free (dream on...) I would sell it and get another 530i or 540(fully loaded) and invest the extra cash. I think you will do the same too, right?
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    On the other hand, I would probably just keep the 530i and find a nice Ferrari Dino 246 GTS to tool around in for weekend play-time. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    91860899... Regarding #2950, the minute I can actually pore over all the paperwork, bills, receipts, etc., not to mention the time it takes and how a real dealer acts toward negotiating prices, all associated with ED, then, and only then, will I be convinced. Unsubstantiated unverified anectodal evidence doesn't prove anything. I chuckle at all the claims about huge ED savings. It seems to be a group of people trying to convince the rest of us that it is the only rational way to go. I'm still waiting for proof. You also make some interesting claims about the number of BMWs you've bought in the last five years and how much you "made" on them. It's a free world. But no one here has any ability to know if what you purport is accurate. So not sure what you mean about "BS".
  • 530bmw530bmw Member Posts: 130
    Please do not chastise me for posting this question about Maxima here. I tried the Maxima board but could not find anything relate to my problem. I know members on this board own a number of Maximas and have plenty of knowlege about cars in general that's why I am giving it a try. Here is my problem: my 95 Maxima's rear left door is hard to open/close, it is dragging when I try to open all the way out. Mechanically speaking, there are three parts that control openning/closing of the door: two hinges and a control arm (not sure what it call but it control how wide the door can swing open).I suspect that one of the two hinges is bad because it is causing the arm to rub against it track which make the door hard to open/close. Is there a way for me to tell which part is bad? As for the hinges how can I tell if the top or the bottom one is bad. Each one costs about $40, I do not want to waste money to replace both. Any advice will be appreciated.

    brave1heart/habitat, I know one of you own a 95 Maxima can you shed some light?
  • zubazuba Member Posts: 58
    I have owned a 98 Maxima GLE for 2 years - and the front passenger door has been a [non-permissible content removed] to open and close since day one!!! Never bothered to fix it cause I drive the car. Well yesterday I found some old WD-40 in the garage - sprayed it a lot, and it is 75% better today!!!

    A friend who also had a Max told me she had the same problem!!

    Try it before replacing hinges!
  • vishnu11vishnu11 Member Posts: 59
    Just got back from ED a week ago - had a blast of course, and saved about $1000/- *including* the cost of the trip.


    I think Beewang's right - if what he says is true, then he has a gift of unloading nearly-new bimmers for a profit. (Bee - followed your M5 trip across the country with great fascination on the bimmer board)


    Shipo went into extraordinary details some posts ago to details costs. Rather than repeating him with my version, here's some more information for you: http://www.bariaur.com/e39/EDsavings.html. Can't say you'd be convinced reading that either.


    IMHO, at the end of the day, you can't be too anal about every single penny. The objective here is to get a good car, have a good time and not get cleaned out of your wallet doing so; this is not an excercise in creating a balance sheet. And if you are as smart as beewang, you can also make money having fun. Then there is a value placed on human emotion - the joy of experiencing new places and other cultures, the thrill of 100mph+ driving, the memories you have with loved ones - these just don't translate into money.


    If you are worried about every single penny, may I respectfully suggest that you shouldn't be considering a bimmer. I'll paraphrase one of my good friends: If you want to save money, stay at home - you'll save a lot! If you want to save more money - don't buy a bimmer - you'll save even more! In any case, for most people, a car never a smart investment. It is a depreciating asset, and expensive cars depreciate more in absolute $$ terms.


    'Nuff said.


    Vishnu


    PS: For all you ED travelers, Lufthansa economy was sorely lacking in food and comfort. Try some other airline or try business.

  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    vishnu... Notice it isn't me that is always claiming that ED is essentially guaranteed to save every potential buyer thousands of dollars and provide what then turns out to be a "free" vacation.

    ALL I say is the only true comparison is between:

    a. A buyer in USA negotiating really hard with available dealers to get the absolute best price s/he can. And the absolute best leasing or financing deal.

    b. The total cost of ED, including time, effort, paperwork, etc. Not sure I've seen anyone who has actually done an ED deal account for all the money costs, time costs, hassle costs, waiting costs, etc. The true cost of ED is more than just mere dollars!

    And the person in (b) can only claim a comparison if they also first seriously tried to do (a). Because without trying (a) first, how do they know how much the same or similar car would cost non-ED?

    That leads me to opine that a good negotiator in (a) might not be paying that much more (or possibly even less) than the person in (b) once you factor in all relevant actual and opportunity costs.

    Thus it might be perfectly logical and economically rational to NOT go ED.

    I'd love to know whether or not you get a better trade deal if you ED or not? Or will dealers doing ED not take trades? (I'd be fearful to do an ED with trade and then wreck my trade while I wait for the ED.)

    I'd also love ED people to report on their financing. Can you finance thru your bank or credit union? Or are you trapped with BMW FS?

    Can you lease thru ED? I don't know. If not, then ED wouldn't be the way to go if leasing is in your interest. If yes, is the lease deal less than what you could get leasing directly from dealer stock?

    Conclusion: If anyone says ED is better always or in most cases, then they bear the burden of proving it. And if they can't prove it, then just say ED works for you but might not for others (and might not actually save you money).

    Fair 'nuff?
  • zubazuba Member Posts: 58
  • zubazuba Member Posts: 58
    Great question - I would like to know the answer as well!!

    I just struck a great deal on ED - and am sleeping on a few options over the weekend before pulling the trigger - so I would like to know about Ed financing as well!!

    I know you have to pay for the car ahead of time!

    When do you pay State taxes on the car? When you register it upon arrival?
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    In 1998, I negotiated a non-ED deal for my current 1999 328i, the MSRP was $38,720 and the negotiated price was $36,777.66. I leased the car with a "Zero Down" lease (meaning paying security, first month and origination fee, totaling about $1,400), which worked out to $510 per month for 39 months. During the process, I visited the dealership three times, the first was to test drive and start negotiations, the second was to order the car and pay the initial deposit money, and the third was to pay the final monies due, sign the final paperwork, and take delivery of the car. Said three visits took place over a three and a half month period, and no one visit took more than an hour (including the test drive). Given that I was active on the TownHall 3-Series board of the time, I knew what type of deal I should have been able to negotiate, and told the salesman that fact when I first met him. He countered with his “No BS best price” which was less than $200 higher than the number that I was looking for (which I had not told him yet), and I decided to look no further, done deal.

    Total savings (interpolated from the old lease agreement):
    CAP: ~$1,942.34
    Monthly: ~$57.20

    Now, in 2002, once again, being active on the BMW boards, I had a fair idea of the type of deal that I was looking for, namely, about $1,500 over ED invoice. A 20-minute discussion with a salesman at the dealership where I leased the 328i provided no joy, so I decided to call around. On my first call, I made my offer; the salesman said “I will call you back in five minutes.” He called back in eight minutes, and asked me if I was willing to order the car right then, and I told him the equipment that I wanted and that I would be right over with a deposit check. I drove right over, signed the order, gave him a deposit, and walked out with a 36 month lease on a $47,395 MSRP car for $558 per month (CAP cost of $42,180), once again with “Zero Down” (meaning paying security, first month AND second month (required by BMWFS for ED), GAP insurance (also required by BMWFS, and not a bad idea anyway), and origination fee, totaling about $2,500). I have since had to make two other trips to the dealership to sign an ED related document, and deliver a notarized photocopy of my Passport, and to drop off the final monies due 30 days prior to delivery in Munich.

    Total savings (less the cost of the trip):
    CAP: $5,684.35 (Including extra sales and luxury taxes)
    Monthly: $170.00

    Given that I travel a fair amount, and have the associated costs calculated fairly accurately (and I am sure that I have), the cost (as previously posted) for a minimal “Lone Wolf” trip would be $1,243.19, generating a savings of $4,441.16. To match that deal, you would have to negotiate a 530i, 5-Speed, PP, SP, PA, Xenon down to about $1,000 BELOW the dealerships’ invoice cost, which, in my opinion, is not very likely.

    Do I think that ED is a better deal if you are already planning a trip to Europe? Without question, and to the best of my knowledge, nobody here has contested that point.

    Do I think that ED is a better deal if an individual does a 2-day “Quickie”? Absolutely.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Yes, you can lease a car obtained via ED, in fact, see my last post, I am doing it.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • pap5pap5 Member Posts: 144
    You are not confined to BMW FS to finance an ED deal. I got financing thru my credit union, same terms as any other deal. Needing payment in hand 30 days before delivery was not a problem.
  • pap5pap5 Member Posts: 144
    You say that you don't care about break-in because you flip your Bimmers quickly. What does that do for the poor sap who becomes the second or third owner? BMW engines may be built to robust standards, but does anyone really know the effect of redline gear changes on a green engine 75,000-150,000 miles down the line? Buyer beware, certainly, but how is a buyer going to tell without tearing down the engine and inspecting key components for abnormal wear? What buyer would do it? What seller would allow it?
  • vishnu11vishnu11 Member Posts: 59
    Riez, good point re: comparison, so here's some guidance (David Zuba I guess you wanted the answers too):

    (a) I did do the eval between non-ED and ED and ED won.

    My first question was exactly the same - is it worth it economically to do ED? From the point of view of the price of the car, ED won handsomely. I negotiated with the dealer first a flat $1200 profit over invoice (at the time I was undecided re ED/non-ED). Therefore, if the cost of the car was $35K ED invoice, I agreed to pay $36200 and if it cost $40K non-ED invoice, I agreed to pay $41200. As you probably already know, ED invoice is significantly less than non-ED invoice. In addition to that, ED implied that I did not have to pay for MACO fees which dealers will pass on if the car will be delivered non-ED. In the Boston area, that's around $200+. Finally, its easier for a reasonable dealer to negotiate a tighter profit margin because ED does not feature into the dealership's car allotment.

    My next question was: is the savings worth the extra hassle and paperwork, if any? I kept travel arrangements out of this because travel is something I can control. When I investigated it, ED paperwork is not significantly different than regular non-ED delivery. Perhaps the only difference is that you have to sign a piece of paper committing to ED delivery when the production number is available. I also was keen on getting the factory tour, so I pestered the dealer and BMWNA for this until I was satisfied I was on the list (note that this is an optional step). I did get an International Driver's License, but this is a 10 min thing at a AAA office. You need a passport obviously, and if you don't have this, its a bit of a hassle getting it done in time for the trip.

    My final question was: Is financing going to be a [non-permissible content removed]? I did investigate this, and it turns out that I will be out of about $100 because I have to finance with BMWFS rather than with my favorite bank. The reason is that the favorite bank requires the title and insurance (which requires a title), and the title cannot be had until the car is Stateside and has a Certificate of Origin. BMWFS overlooks this because of obvious reasons. As soon as the title and/or car is Stateside, I am going to refinance with my favorite bank at no additional cost of pre-payment to BMWFS. BMWFS's rate was not bad - 6.99% as opposed to the industry standard around 5.5%+, so there's not much difference (I did put down a cash downpayment). I would have blown the extra $100 in a dinner or a speeding ticket anyway.

    Corollary question was: should I should lease or finance? Since the lease is a definite 3 years and I would not have the car for over 2 months, I would not be driving it for the full period. With financing, this meant that I am merely accelerating my car payments but not been denied driving privileges in the long term. Plus I have heard too many horror stories about leasing and I did not want to get ulcers watching the odometer all the time. So financing it was. Yup, this means that as a buyer, I may be in for a significant crash when the new E60 comes out, but bimmers are great cars anyway and this did not mean much of a downside to me. Hopefully, Bangle will keep his ideas alive and my value afloat..:-) As Shipo pointed out, however, you can either lease or finance ED.

    After all of this, my other goal was to make sure that the savings actually materialized after the Munich vacation. So I did not stay at the Kempinski or the Bayerischer Hof but stayed at a Colony Inn right opposite the Niederlassung dealer, took the sardine-class in Lufthansa for $320 rt and utilized the excellent Munich subway system. All off-season of course. A couple of hours on the Internet, and I had everything lined up. Munich has some incredible international food, btw.

    (b) My opinion about trading a vehicle is the same broken record that Edmund's preaches: Never discuss a trade until the deal on your new car is done. Both deals should be financially separate. I should not be one to preach, however, since I have got shafted before. Maybe next time I'll be sharper.

    Hope this helps!

    Fair 'nuff?
  • vishnu11vishnu11 Member Posts: 59
  • boxsterboxster Member Posts: 28
    some dealers are selling some 2001 model cars, stated they are factory executive cars, what are they exactly? are they good? most of them are with around 10k miles and they are not CPOed, why? does it mean they might have been abused and disqualified?
  • theomdtheomd Member Posts: 11
    Have been shopping in MA for a 530ia,CW,PP. Found best deal on 3yr/15k; 0 down to be $660 with walkout total upfronts $1500. Note monthly lease payment includes MA 5% sales tax. (Found wide variety of offers $558-707; upfrnts $1500-2200). Any feed back on the best deal noted above will be signing this weekend. Thanks
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Boxster,

    I don't think I have ever heard of a CPOed executive car with under 10,000 miles. FWIW, I live right by BMWNA, and I rarely see any of the employee cars being "Abused", and the ones that are, are things like M3s and such. Also, if it was an "Executive Car", technically, it is not Pre-Owned.

    Theomd,

    I ran your numbers and they seem pretty good, I would go for that deal.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • sjmurray2sjmurray2 Member Posts: 65
    My Father was a partner in a small New England Volvo dealership back in the 70s. When I was in College, my Father use to send me with a few other guys to the Volvo Distributor in Rockleigh, NJ to buy these "Executive" cars with approx. 10,000 miles on the clock. These were beautifully kept vehicles and we bought them very cheap compared to the retail sticker price. E.g., a $17,000 retail sticker may have been bought for $10,000-$12,000 if my memory serves me correctly. Bottom line: Good deal and we the dealership made some good profit on these cars. This seemed to go on for a few years and I'm not sure why there were so many cars available or why my Father (he passed away last year) seemed to be the recipient of this good deal since we were 210 miles away from the Headquarters in NJ? Hope this helps.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    boxster... I'm assuming you are talking about buying one of these from a BMW dealer. Since it costs the dealer to CPO the car, it doesn't surprise me that they would try to sell them non-CPO. If you ask the dealer about it, would bet he'll say something like: "The car is under the remainder of the original 4yr/50k bumper-to-bumper warranty and the "free maintenance. Why would you want it CPO?" And since it is so low miles and has so much warranty remaining, he'll be asking top notch price. He won't believe CPO'g the car will allow him to raise the price much; he'll be thinking he can get that price or very close without CPO'g anyway. So he won't see any value to him of CPO'g.

    That is exactly what the BMW dealer told us when my wife initially tried to buy her used '00 323iA. It was a dealer's service loaner (had never been titled to another party) and had about 18,000 miles on it. When I told the dealer it was either CPO or no deal, he agreed to CPO it. We wrote the deal up with CPO clearly specified.

    Thought I read somewhere that BMW dealers could CPO cars that had at least 6,000 miles on odometer.
  • rtboonrtboon Member Posts: 21
    Can anyone tell me how to have the daytime running lights turned off in a 97 528i ? I think the key is the answer but who do you see to have this done and what is the cost?

    Thanks
    Cape Cod
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    shipo... The timing of your respective purchases is fascinating. If I'm understanding your stories...

    1. You bought the then all brand new E46 3 Series platform upon introduction. Didn't it come out in CY 1998 as a MY 1999? And you were buying the hotter 328i? This is the time dealers will be attempting to get the most money for the car, as they are dealing with the type buyers who have to have the latest and greatest and will pay the most. Compare MSRP with same options on your then new '99 328i to a new '02 330i (adjusting for engine difference and changes in standard equipment), and then take into account inflation.

    2. And now, near the end of its platform life, you are buying an E39 5 Series, at a time when this platform is in its 7th model year and facing a replacement soon? People are now focusing more on the next generation 5 Series than the current generation.

    On an inflation adjusted basis and taking into account all the additional standard equipment acquired by both platforms thru their lives, the '02 330i and '02 530i cost less today than they did upon introduction. (And they cost BMW a lot less to build per unit today, as they amortize plant & equipment and the production learning curve allows them to produce them quicker and easier, requiring fewer man-hours to make, etc.).

    Leasing complicates your situation. There has likely been a significant change in projected residuals. Not to mention a huge difference in interest rates between CY 1998 and CY 2001/2. Rates have fallen dramatically in just the past year.

    So I end up having a hard time drawing any firm conclusions from your stories. I might if you had tried to both seriously negotiate ED and non-ED in BOTH CY 1998 and CY 2002.
  • zubazuba Member Posts: 58
    When the dealer agreed to CPO the car for you - did he add on another $1500 or so?
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    zuba... Odd that you ask. Short answer is NO. But dealer would've if he could've.

    We did the deal on a Saturday in the afternoon (12/1/01). Almost an impulse purchase. We were on vacation in Des Moines seeing my parents when I came back from Appleton WI the day before with my CPO 540i6. Wife became insanely jealous when she rode in it. We were driving by the DSM BMW dealer, European Motorcars, and she said she had to see if they had a car she liked! We walked the lot with the salesman but she didn't see anything she liked. As we were getting ready to leave we were walking thru the Service Area. She saw a silver 323iA and looked at it. Salesman commented it was a Service Loaner. But it was the right color and had all the exact options she wanted (PP, sunroof, CD, leather, metallic paint, automatic, heated seats). So he said he'd ask the dealership about selling her the loaner.

    When we worked the deal out with the salesperson we discussed CPO. Told him I was only buying CPO. I probably mentioned it 3 times. He agreed. We got a price (for car and trade-in) and he wrote it up. When we were passed to the finance person (the real deal person) I noticed no mention of CPO. He then acted surprised about going CPO. Told him we had discussed it in advance and the salesperson had agreed. Told him the deal stayed as was, and he write it up CPO, or we'd walk. Told him I had no problem waiting and betting that Markel BMW in Omaha would have something she wanted. So he wrote it up. We got the price we negotiated.
  • 530bmw530bmw Member Posts: 130
    I am somewhat leery of "exec cars" advertised by all dealers. I have seen ads all the times promoting these cars by many dealers not just in my area but in every US cities. If I total all the cars together there are hundreds and hundreds of of them and I wonder how many executives are working for BMWNA. Because I think the number of cars claimed will exceed the number of executives. Is it possible a dealer include leased cars that turn in prematurely and make them more attractive as "exec cars"? I am not suggesting that BMWNA is doing this, rather, it is an unscrupulous dealer who is trying to do this on his own to move cars on the lot. I may be totally off on this but based on my take on this, it is possible. If my theory is wrong, may be someone on this board can explain to me how BMWNA control this from happenning.

    On to a different subject, according to Consumer Report (April issue), the best overall lux sedan car is the 530. It is so good that the chart ran out of room for "excellent" on the right side. Check it out for yourself.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    If you go ED, who do you actually buy the car from? BMW AG? BMW USA? The dealer?

    Got me wondering about differences in deals when there is a lease subsidy. If BMW USA is subsidizing leases (either artificially low money factor or artificially high residual), can you get that subsidized lease deal thru ED? Or is that only from dealer stock?

    Or differences if BMW FS is offering cut-rate purchase financing (e.g., 3.9 percent subsidized financing)? Can you get this rate going ED or do you get a higher rate?

    Someone (shipo?) mentioned buying his ED thru BMW FS but then planning to refinance thru his local bank or credit union. Wouldn't the refinance deal be based on a used car? Interest rates are normally higher for used cars rather than new cars? Don't see how the bank or credit union could finance as a new car, since it would already have been titled thru the original lender. It would then be-retitled. And the loan terms might be different. Some used car loaners might only go 48 months or 60 tops while new car financing is almost always available out to 60 months and sometimes 72 or 84.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    While I cannot speak to the financing of an ED vehicle by third party sources, I do know that the lease deals that BMWFS offers for domestic purchases is the exact same deal that is offered for the ED folks. The cool thing about leasing an ED car is that the residual is calculated upon the MSRP of the US car NOT the ED MSRP, so, ED works out sort of like a CAP cost reduction.

    Said another way, if I had paid MSRP ($47,395) for my 530i, the residual would have been $28,437. If I had done a $1,500 over US invoice deal ($44,850), the residual would still have been $28,437. In my case, I did a $1,500 over ED invoice deal ($42,180), and yes, my residual was still $28,437.

    Reiz,

    The differences between my two BMW leases are interesting, my 1999 328i had a calculated residual of 63% after 39 months, while my 530i has a calculated residual of only 60% after 36 months, definately not as good of a deal. That said, the interest percentage on the 328i was around 6.6% while the interest on the 530i is more like 5.0%, which works more in my favor.

    In the end, the two differences come close to cancelling each other out (gut guess, I haven't run the numbers yet).

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • joseph830joseph830 Member Posts: 9
    hi,

    2002 525ia
    Anybody else got the letter from BMW USA that there's a recall? Something with strut mount is not secure and can damage your car such as front tires blowing while driving if this problem is not fixed.
    Appearently, I will not go fix this because i am using H&R springs already on my car.
  • vishnu11vishnu11 Member Posts: 59
    Someone (shipo?) mentioned buying his ED thru BMW FS but then planning to refinance thru his local bank or credit union. Wouldn't the refinance deal be based on a used car? Interest rates are normally higher for used cars rather than new cars? Don't see how the bank or credit union could finance as a new car, since it would already have been titled thru the original lender. It would then be-retitled. And the loan terms might be different. Some used car loaners might only go 48 months or 60 tops while new car financing is almost always available out to 60 months and sometimes 72 or 84.

    Actually I mentioned that. Right now, it appears that many lenders are offering refinancing at the same rate as new cars. Check it out at your local banks. Same goes with the loan term.

    Vishnu
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    vishnu11... When I was shopping rates for used cars in Nov/Dec 2001 I found many lenders that charged higher interest rates for used cars in comparison to their new car rates and many lenders that would lend for shorter period on used cars.

    I went CPO on my '98 540i6. At time BMW FS would only go 48 months on its 3.9 percent deal (and they made first payment). You could get 60 months on some newer used cars and thinking upwards of 72 on new cars. I ended up going thru USAA FSB for a 72 month loan on wife's CPO '00 323iA.

    With the glut of used cars on market due to all the new car sales during the aggressive 0.0 percent financing wars, now the dealers are subsidizing used car loans. Seeing many for 0.0 percent to 3.9 percent. But often the terms of loan are only 24 or 36 months.
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    shipo... Ordinarily don't think there is a direct relationship between going nominal interest rates and residuals. They usually change independently due to different factors.

    The interest rate is going to be tied to future inflationary expectations and short-term interest rate activity by Federal Reserve Rate. Fed has aggressively cut its short-term rates so interest rates on most durable goods financed for 60 months or less has declined dramatically over past year. (Think Fed cut its short-term rate 11 times in 2001, a record number of cuts in such a short period.) But you must keep in mind that it is the market, not the Fed, that determines long-term interest rates, e.g., 15- or 30-year house mortgages. That is tied to inflationary expectations and market desired real rates or return on various risk levels.)

    Automotive residuals and depreciation are driven by the future expectation of the value of the car over time. This will be driven by supply & demand, reliability, buyer perceptions, etc. But you have to keep in mind the nominal versus the "real" value of the car over time.

    There can be some linkage if the short-run expected inflation rate is high. Anyone remember the double-digit annual inflation rate under then President Carter in late 1970s? Retail prices were skyrocketing as the nominal value of the dollar plummeted each year. Each dollar held for a year would buy less goods and services at the end of the year. Makes more since to spend rather than hold money during high inflationary times. Since the residual or depreciated value of the car will be in nominal dollars, high inflationary expectations can raise the residual to account for the real decline in the value of the currency though not the car. As the nominal value of all used cars is increasing by the rate of inflation.

    High inflation can raise the nominal value of a used car higher than its start at the beginning of the year. But the "real" value of the car is still declining, once adjusted for inflation.

    But the late 1970s high inflation and high inflationary expectations were far, far different than the late 1990s.
  • vishnu11vishnu11 Member Posts: 59
    I ended up going thru USAA FSB for a 72 month loan on wife's CPO '00 323iA

    Why would you go for a 72 month (6-year) loan? Wouldn't the interest on that be inordinately high compared to the original loan? Did you calculate how much interest you would be paying compared to the principal? How did you rationalize this?

    Vishnu
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    vishnu11... I needed to keep my monthly payments down. The day before I had just bought my CPO '98 540i6. My wife was insanely jealous of my car and absolutely, positively had to have a BMW. I can't explain it. She knew about my 540i6 plans a long time in advance and never said a peep. Minute she sees it and rides it, she exclaims, "How could you? You know I've wanted one of these since I was a little girl. It isn't fair. I'm not happy." I met her 12 years ago when she was 27. How would I know the psychology of her purported automotive lust? So what could a loyal, loving husband do other than to give in to his wife's demands????

    But I did get a very good interest rate on the deal. I was preapproved for a special offer. Told my wife I wanted her to keep the car for many years. When she bought it at 18,000 miles CPO she ended up with 32,000 miles of b-to-b warranty plus 50K more CPO warranty miles. Is under warranty thru Aug 2006 (57 months warranty period from 12/1/01 purchase).

    And if she sells it, there is no penalty nor does USAA FSB use any horrid interest rate calculation formula (e.g., Rule of 72 that is allowed in some states).
  • dl7265dl7265 Member Posts: 1,381
    Currently my credit union has 5.49% on 1998My and up used cars as well as new. However on leases it more like 8% and ballon is 6.49%

    riez, i suppose we all would like CPO if it was added on at no extra charge.

    DL
  • ek5ek5 Member Posts: 33
    Belated thanks for the car mat information...I'll try out the suggestions!
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Riez: Since you seem to be skeptical about ED, here is the quick analysis of my deal:

    Bought MY 2000 540i 6-speed w/premium sound, shades, few other minor options for $1,200 over ED invoice. Including shipping, I bought in February 2000 for $49,365. That price does not include taxes (sales, luxury or gas guzzler).

    The best deal I was offered at the time for a US delivery car was $1,700 over US invoice (and it was not to my preferred specs). As I recall, the US invoice in 2000 was about $3,800 higher than the ED invoice, so my "gross" savings were roughly $4,300 ($3,800 + $500).

    The entire cost of the trip for me was $1,683. However, it was a business trip and deductable, so my net trip cost was under $900. I also paid cash for the car, so leasing or financing differences were not a factor.

    I am now selling my 2-year old 540i with 40,000 miles for $42,500 to a buyer referred through my dealership. That is roughly a split between trade-in and retail value. The car is in exceptional condition with 90%+ highway miles. Although I didn't sell my ED car at a profit, 2 years and 40,000 miles for under $7,000 depreciation is pretty good in my book.

    I expect to take delivery next week of a new 2002 M5. Getting it at $7,500 under MSRP (which just happens to be the forfeited deposit of the buyer who ordered an interesting color combination and then backed out of the deal in transit). It's good to have friends in the business.

    It's certainly your perogative to remain skeptical about the benefits of ED. I, for one, could never figure out why someone would pay $40k for a used car. But I'm glad they do!
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    Happened to be looking over the 1997 US Supreme Court case State Oil v. Khan (96-871, 93 F.3d 1358). Case in which the court overruled its own prior precedent to now hold that vertical maximum price fixing (e.g., by a manufacturer to its retailers) was no longer a per se (in and of itself automatic) violation of anti-trust laws. Now all future such actions would be "evaluated under the rule of reason ... identify[ing] those situations in which vertical maximum price fixing amounts to anticompetitive conduct."

    Noticed the Supreme Court decision mentioned the case of Caribe BMW, Inc. v BMW Aktiengesellschaft as ruled on 3/25/94 by the US First Circuit Court of Appeals, in a decision by then Circuit Chief Judge Breyer (now Supreme Court Justice), No. 93-1653. Caribe filed suit in 1991 and lost in District Court. The Caribe v. BMW AG decision has some interesting discussion about various then BMW AG practices. Caribe bought cars directly from BMW AG in Germany and resisted BMW AG's attempts starting in 1987 to force Caribe to buy directly from BMW NA. And Caribe ended up facing BMW NA selling BMWs to its competing BMW dealers cheaper than it could get them from BMW AG. And Caribe had to agree to maximum sales prices. If Caribe violated the contract, which had exclusive dispute resolution clause mandating German venue, then BMW AG could terminate Caribe's contract. (Before CA1, BMW AG lost and case remanded, but don't know what happened afterwards.)

    Both cases are on the internet. US Supreme Court's web site for State Oil and CA1's site for Caribe (www.ca1.uscourts.gov).
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    epn2... I couldn't imagine spending $70,000 or thereabouts on a new car. Not even $55,000 or thereabouts. But I would pay less than $40,000 for a great used car with a decent warranty from manufacturer. Enjoy your M5. What is the MSRP? Probably close to what I paid for my house in 1995.
  • scoutlabscoutlab Member Posts: 12
    Does the toolkit in the 530i come with a folding reflector? I took a look at the fold-away toolkit attached to the trunklid and noticed a place for a reflector together with info on how to use the reflector. However, there's no reflector in the kit.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    $73,195, with my cost being $65,695. But we need to agree on a definition of "spending". As previously indicated, my MY2000 540i 6-speed only "cost" me $7k in depreciation over 2 years and 40k miles. And all service expenses were covered under included maintenance plan. Now, what are your loan payments plus maintenace for your CPO 540i over two years & 40k miles? I suspect a bit more than $7k.

    To each their own. And, as I said, I am glad that used BMW's maintain their value so well. Means I'm "spending" less to buy one new.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    The folding reflector is only included as standard issue on U.S. spec cars delivered in Munich via the ED program.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • vishnu11vishnu11 Member Posts: 59
    ...seems to confirm what I said in post #2966:
    My first question was exactly the same - is it worth it economically to do ED? From the point of view of the price of the car, ED won handsomely. I negotiated with the dealer first a flat $1200 profit over invoice (at the time I was undecided re ED/non-ED). Therefore, if the cost of the car was $35K ED invoice, I agreed to pay $36200 and if it cost $40K non-ED invoice, I agreed to pay $41200. As you probably already know, ED invoice is significantly less than non-ED invoice. In addition to that, ED implied that I did not have to pay for MACO fees which dealers will pass on if the car will be delivered non-ED. In the Boston area, that's around $200+. Finally, its easier for a reasonable dealer to negotiate a tighter profit margin because ED does not feature into the dealership's car allotment.

    Enjoy your M5! I did ED about a week and a half ago. I find it interesting that I ordered the car late last December and life passed between then and March fairly quickly. After ED pickup, every day of waiting is excruciating. :-) Anybody had the same experience?

    Btw, I dropped the car off at the Harms location in Munich - any way of finding out whether its been trucked to Bremerhaven? (I think Bremerhaven is the nearest port to Munich).

    Vishnu
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Congrats on your purchase. My only regret on the M5 is that it is not ED. I would have gladly gone back at my own expense (there are no ED discounts for "M" cars). Alas, I will make up for it with the free performance driving school offered by BMW with all M5's. I did one several years ago with Porsche, but could use a refresher. I don't drive aggressively or irresponsibly, but first hand knowledge of a car's dynamics and capabilities is useful at any speed. I credit my Porsche session with saving my neck a couple of times getting out of the way of other drivers (or in one case, a disintegrating semi tire).

    There is a BMW tracking system, but I'm not sure how detailed it is, since I haven't used it for a couple of years. Check with your dealer. Good luck.
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Three weeks after I took delivery of my 328i in February 1999, some “(*^$$@#%%^~” “Mini-Van Personage” managed to back into the drivers door of my car, get out, look at my door, and then drive away (according to two witnesses who were not close enough to get the Tag number). The damage turned out to be a 3” diameter dent in the lower rear section of the door that was maybe 3/16” deep at its deepest. I decided to leave the dent there and have it dealt with at lease end, at which point, I had intended to have all dings fixed. As providence would have it, this lone ding remained my only significant hurt that my car suffered throughout the last 38 months.

    Last Friday, I went to my local “Dent Wizard” (by appointment), and using Black Magic, Voodoo, Curses (I heard them from the waiting room ;-)), and some very appropriately applied leverage, my ding was COMPLETELY removed, no trace at all, none, zip zero, zilch, NADA! Total cost: 1.5 hours and $150, a veritable bargain, I shouldn’t have waited so long. ;-)

    There are a number of “Paintless Dent Removal” outfits dotted around the country, and I highly recommend exploring this option prior to having a traditional bodyshop breath on any dings or prangs suffered by your car.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • snagielsnagiel Member Posts: 750
    As I've mentioned before here, the Owner's Circle promises to improve order tracking in the future, but for now it's imprecise and slow to update. Your best bet is to call BMWNA at 800-831-1117 and select option 3. Give them your VIN or order number, and they should be able to track down your car for you, along with an estimated US arrival date.
  • jwilson1jwilson1 Member Posts: 956
    Me too, shipo! I once had a ding in the hood of a black Miata! Talk about conspicuous, a difficult color, and a bad area! Not only that but the car was about eight years old and I was afriad a body shop couldn't get the color match exact enough.

    The dent wizard dance & funny-shaped-steel-bar-thingee worked. Oh, if you stood at just the perfect angle in the sun and were looking for it, you could see something had happened, but...
    I'll stand with you on recommending them as a great place to try before hitting a body shop.

    Take care.
    Joe W.
  • scoutlabscoutlab Member Posts: 12
    Thank you.
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