BMW 5-Series Sedans

shipo · February 2003

Back in the mid 1990s, when I worked for MBUSA, the thinking about lots of options went something like this; by offering them, MB would distance themselves from other manufacturers who use the (now) common practice of offering a few packages along with a few extra ala-carte options, so as to keep the manufacturing and logistic variables to a minimum. You would be surprised at the different number or ways the MB customers option their cars, so, I guess they are just catering to their customers wishes.

Pap5,

My original dealership tried the accelerator pedal fix as well, and in the case if my car, IF it helped, it didnt help much.

My car was manufactured (if I remember correctly) during the first half of March 2002, and during the nine days that I drove it in Europe, it ran perfectly. When I picked it up in May (24-May-2002 to be exact), it ran like crap. At the time, I assumed that maybe the quality of the gas put in it (I delivered the car to E.H. Harms with less than a quarter of a tank of gas) either at the VPC or the Dealership was to blame. After a couple of weeks, either I got better at anticipating how the car would balk, or the Adaptive part of the software learned my driving style, or maybe a little of both, because, while still annoying, the problem seemed to be a little better. By October, I was still annoyed, but not much more than that, so it was almost in passing that I mentioned it to the service manager at Tully.

During the test drive, the technician told me that my cars throttle response felt typical for a 5-Series, and that he didnt think that there was anything wrong. That said, when I told him that my car ran perfectly in Europe and only started this problem once here in the States, he decided to investigate further. He then hooked my car up to the shop diagnostic system, and he was able to confirm that my software had in fact been changed since the car came out of the factory. As soon as he saw that, and realized that there was a later release available, he installed it in my car. He did warn me that my car would take a couple of weeks to Re-Learn my driving style, so I was to reserve my judgment until then. I didnt have to, my car was instantly better.

Regarding your car: When was it built? When did you take delivery of it here in the states? Do you know if your dealership (or the VPC for that matter) upgraded the software once the car arrived here in the States?

It sounds like you have a copy of the same Mark II code that I used to have.

Ask your dealership, I would be curious to know if my situation was an isolated incident, or if this is a common problem.

Regarding "Being in 540 territory", nothing, really, however I do have a theory. More on that later.

Best Regards,
Shipo

jhox85 · February 2003

Well, I tried to do what you told me about turning the clown nose counterclockwise. But, I had no luck. I was afraid of breaking it.

Is there another trick?
Thanks for your help.

pen101 · February 2003

I called a local BMW dealer asking if a software upgrade was available for my car. My 530i was manufactued in 11/2001. The dealer looked up the VIN of my car and saw no recall or other work necessary of this nature for my car. He suggested that I bring it in and so he can check the car's different systems.

From day one, I always have had trouble with smooth shifts from 1-2. I always thought I was spoiled from my previous car's clutch operation. It has taken me awhile, but I have now taught myself how to shift smoother in most situations. But after reading shipo's posts, maybe I'm not entirely at fault. Do you have any additional information about the software that would be helpful in describing it to the dealer service writer?

snagiel · February 2003

What Shipo referred to is a throttle software problem that manifested itself in a sticky/surge gas pedal problem. What you're talking about is the result of the CDV (clutch delay valve), which many owners have chosen to remove or drill out to alleviate the unnatural 1-2 upshift problems. See http://www.bmwtips.com/tipsntricks/cdv/cdv.htm for information about this.

shipo · February 2003

Hmmm, I have had the understanding that the CDV was only installed on the 540i 6-Speed (and probably the M5 as well), and that the 525i and 530i have no such impediment to the clutch operation. Do you have any idea how we can go about finding out for sure?

In my experience with this problem, there is absolutely no question (in my mind at least) that the clutch is not involved (hence the CDV is not the issue), and that the problem rests entirely with the throttle software. How can I be so sure? Simple, the problem manifests itself in situations where the clutch is not being used. Here is a snippet from my previous post:

when transitioning from little/no throttle (as in negotiating a down-hill freeway ramp with a mean kink in the middle) to say 50% throttle (same ramp, same kink, but the hill bottoms out half way through the kink).

In this example, as you squeeze the throttle (without changing gears and without touching the clutch), the car would (sometimes) momentarily balk (say for a quarter to a half of a second). Said balk could be barely noticeable (except by the driver), or it could be severe enough to cause all the passengers to rock forward until the power came back on.

I will call Tully and see if they can bring up my records and tell me what version of software they used. I will let yall know.

Best Regards,
Shipo

snagiel · February 2003

As I suspected in my prior message, I believe the problem you're describing is different from that of the CDV woes, which manifest themselves as a delayed clutch reaction when shifting (especially quickly).

As for the CDV's presence, I'm fairly certain it's the M5 that doesn't have one, but the rest of the 5-series (manual) line does. I'd have to comb through the near-worthless Roadfly search functionality to be sure, but I'm 95% certain that 530's and 525's have them.

shipo · February 2003

Regarding my theory about why my 530i might be faster than a typical 530i, (please understand that I am grasping at straws here because I can not rationalize the theory with my knowledge of how an engine operates), the story goes back to my teenage years growing up in a Suburb of Detroit. Said Suburb happened to have lots of white collar executive types from the Autos, and as such, plenty of my friends parents were automotive engineers. On two separate occasions I had conversations with two engineers from two different companies where I was told that Breaking a car in at high RPMs will make the engine more powerful and, as a result, the car faster.

Both then told me that every time they got a new car, they would drive around in second gear (back in the day of the Turbo Hydromatic and the Torque Flight three speed automatic transmissions) for as much as a thousand miles. Both of them swore that this made their cars faster than other similarly equipped cars. Hmmm, here we are 30 years later and I am still having a problem choking that one down.

Nevertheless, here we are (or were) in 2002, and there I was driving in my 530i with a BMW technician from Tully, and he was telling me that my car Felt like it was in 540 territory. So, how does this potentially BS story from the 1970s relate to my 530i? As many of you will remember, I picked my car up in Munich last April, and promptly drove it to Paris and back over the next seven days. During that period of time, I spent much of it driving on the Autobahn, and while I did observe the recommended RPM and Top Speed restrictions for proper engine break-in (for the most part anyway ;-)), as soon as I hit 1,200 miles, I planted the accelerator pedal. For the next 400 miles or so, I drove just shy of the point where the Speed Limiter would engage to slow things down (which on my car is 132.5 indicated).

So, while I did vary my speed, and while I did not (often) exceed the break-in limits, I did spend most of the time with the engine well into the upper half of its RPM range. Could it be that those engineers back in Detroit were on to something? All I know is that my (former) 328i was supposed to be a tick faster than my 530i, however, according to my Butt-Dyno, it aint even close, the 530 is significantly faster.

Hmmm, this should generate some interesting comments. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

mseals · February 2003

It is true that the CDV is in all BMW 5er sticks. I have a 528i and I have CDV. From my understanding based on the bimmer.org board, this is a common mod for 528's, 525's, 530's and 540's to have this drilled out. There is even a guy who holds clinic in the north east. He will also drill it out for free for the price of a CDV. You just mail two CDV's to him and he will mail you one back that is drilled out. It is supposedly an easy mod, other than bleeding you breaks once you are done. The CDV itself is realitively easy to get to. I have thought about doing this myself.

srfast · February 2003

I own a 2003 530i/5spd and have a "drilled" CDV installed. I drove a 1993 325i/5spd for 10 years without any complaints/problems which wasn't the case regarding the 2003 530i. I drove the E39 for approx. 15 days with the factory CDV and then had it changed. The car now shifts as I am accustomed to - no more guessing or changing my driving style to compensate for the CDV. BTW, I had the "clinic person" mseals mentions in his post perform the work.

Hope this helps....JL

shipo · February 2003

Hmmm, well, I guess that I need to have my CDV done too. I had previously ignored that suggestion because I (incorrectly) thought that only the 540i had the CDV.

Thanks folks for correcting me. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

riez · February 2003

Will be interesting to see what BMW will think if an owner has transmission problem and they find out you messed with the transmission. How come methinks they might have heartburn and argue that you voided the warranty as relates to the transmission? They put it there for a reason and they'll know if you messed with it.

I must be odd. The CDV doesn't bother me. I love my '98 540i6. But I didn't buy her to do smokey burnouts or blast away from stopsigns. I enjoy the top end power. Does the CDV have much impact on shifting at higher speeds in 3-4-5-6th gears?

div2 · February 2003

Drilling out the CDV is the preferred technique; a dealer will probably never notice a drilled CDV. A missing one, on the other hand...

srfast · February 2003

My belief is that the only tranny problem you would have is burning out the clutch, but if you somehow manage to do that, you probably didn't know how to drive a manual to begin with. BMW puts the CDV in their clutch hydraulics to make it easier for the newbie to drive a manual. For the "seasoned" driver who has driven non-CDV manuals for decades, it is an annoyance. I went with the DRILLED CDV because no one can tell the system was modified, but removing it completely would be a dead give away.

Hope this helps...JL

mseals · February 2003

I think div2 is correct. I don't think that a dealer would ever know that the inside of the CDV is drilled out or even think to look at that part. It is only a $13-15 part from what I have heard. I believe that the reason for the part, and any one correct me if I am wrong, but it slows the engagement of the clutch. I think this would be more noticeable at lower gears and lower speeds as shipo has questioned. The thing I hear that it really does though is take the stress off the drive shaft and half shaft. Shipo, you are correct, I didn't buy my 528i to do burnouts. I do notice though that the engagement on my car is smooth, meaning that when I accelerate hard, I am sure the clutch is slipping a lot more than I would like causing the power to be smoothly applied instead of all at once. This would make the car seem somewhat sluggish to a car that had the CDV drilled out. As for the 540i6, if I had that car, I am not sure I would drill mine out for a couple of reasons. One, that is plenty of power, clutch slipping or not. And secondly, that engine would put some serious strain on every drive componet past the transmission. This could potentionally cause problems later in life, but I am sure it would be long after the warranty is up on the car.

pap5 · February 2003

Interesting theory you have there. Never heard anything like that before, but who knows? I wouldn't have had a chance to try it out even had I heard about it, since I was anal about following breakin precautions and ended my ED experience with fewer than 1200 miles on the clock. Driving on the autobahns/autoroutes, I never got north of 100 mph (well, maybe 105).

My 530i was built in 6/01, and delivered stateside the last week of August. I'm not aware of any modifications made by the VPC or the delivering (out of state) dealer. It may have felt better in Europe, but then again it developed two defects during the first year of ownership that greatly affected drivetrain feel and function: A bad AT valve body resulting in torque loss under load, and the sticky pedal. Both were fixed under warranty and the car now drives better, but still suffers from problems like the balkiness you document above and I have described previously. I thought the Steptronic might be the culprit, but here you are experiencing the same thing with a stick! I definitely will have my local dealer assess the engine management software.

shipo · February 2003

Hmmm, interesting. I dont suppose that the balking started after the transmission fix? Did you have any work done on your car between April 2002 and the first half of October 2002? If you did, I would suspect that the software was upgraded at the time, and that you got the same "Mark II" code that messed up my car. FWIW, my technician at Tully was instantly able to determine that the software had been upgraded since the car left the factory.

I just called Tully BMW, and while they were not able to give me any kind of code release level, he told me that the date of my service call was 22-Oct-2002, and I specifically remember the technician saying that the dealership "Just got the code in two days before." Given that the 22nd was a Tuesday, I am guessing that the previous Friday (18-Oct) was the actual distribution date. The individual I just spoke with said, "Yeah, all he needs to do is have his dealership drop the latest new code into the DME." At least, I think that he said "DME".

Interesting side note; to me, DME means "Distance Measuring Equipment", which is used for calculating the "Slant" distance to a marker beacon for a pilot. Said Slant distance, when coupled with current altitude and the current radial to the beacon will yield a fairly precise location fix without triangulation.

Best Regards,
Shipo

spyderred · February 2003

I was stunned. It is a gorgeous blue 2003 awd 911 turbo with a special optional high performance engine and transmission factory package. He let me drive it a couple of times. Oh my god, the power in this car is phenominal, absolutely intoxicating. I didn't get a chance to take it through any twisties but when my friend comes back I will put it through the paces. Here are some pictures.

Me like, me Want.

Spyderred,

snagiel · February 2003

Very, very nice. BUT, is that a slushbox Turbo?

snagiel · February 2003

[Forgive the tardy post, but I just received and read the C&D report.] It's appeared to me recently that their editors' advancing ages are manifesting themselves in ways contrary to the magazine's driving theme, and this report exemplifies the point. Granted, we're talking about luxury sports sedans, so it's not all about the driving. But that should take a priority, and it appears that in this case it hasn't.

The editors rave about the E320's style and elegance, and I'd have to agree that it's gorgeous, even to the point of making the E39 feel a bit antiquated. But: "The steering effort goes up at times...brake response is nonlinear...no braking feedback...throttle response is soggy." The 530i: "...has the kind of trusty, predictable control responses we like." And the Merc wins?

mseals · February 2003

Now we all know, that normally the trend is the the latest and greatest that has been in the top before wins comparo tests. Obvious contridiction to this claim is the CTS. But look, the G35 won and with comments like "it is obvious that the money went to the right places, engine, transmission and suspension" Well, to bad that rest of the car got left out at such a cheap price. Sure I like the look of the G35 for the most part, not to big on the back end still, but the interior of the car is awefully cheap. I was in line this weekend at a swanky club and a G35 pulled up. The girl in front of me immediately said, that is a beautiful car, but the inside is totally cheap. I was in love at first site. She then went on to tell me why the BMW should have won the comparo test in a car magazine she read but didn't. I was totally taken off guard. I think the same is for the new e series. It is a beautiful car, finally they make it look like all the others. BUT, we all know that mercs are not for sport, but rather luxury. This is not to say they can't improve this, but they choose to make the majority of their cars as autos and they choose to focus to the groups that want luxury over sport. There is nothing wrong with that. I have a friend from Romania, and he told me that MB is the luxury brand, VW is the every day brand, Porche is the pure sport brand and BMW is the mix between MB and Porche at semi practical prices. I guess over there the car isn't nearly as expensive and has way more options.

seivwrig · February 2003

I never read the comparo but interior in the G35 is plasticky. Buying autos is due to personal taste. Only sports cars are built for enthuaists (see Porsche option list). We pay the cheapest prices on BMWs, Audis and Mercs, but the cars are viewed different here (U.S) than there (Europe). Like some one has said on the board before, we are brand conscience. Every time I go home to England, I see the 4-cyl Audis, Mercs and Bimmers. With the exception of the c230 coupe and sedan, we do not see those 4-cyl models over here. It kind of keeps the brand a little prestigious even though a 3er can hardly be considered prestigious with the recent sales numbers. Auto makers are in the business of making money. If most people that buy Mercs like slushboxes, then Merc will satisfy those buyers. The car lover will just have to find another brand to buy. Take BMW, it will be interesting to see how the SMG (SSG) transmission does in the U.S., this could bite into some manual transmission sales. In the U.S., BMW is a luxury marque, a sporty one but luxury none the less. In Europe, you can option a BMW with cloth seats and no luxury, pure sport sedan.

spyderred · February 2003

kdshapiro · February 2003

"It kind of keeps the brand a little prestigious even though a 3er can hardly be considered prestigious with the recent sales numbers."

I'm not following how sales affects prestige or prestige affects sales.???

dabimmer · February 2003

Fortunate to drive '03 Porsche with the Tiptronic, my oh my what a car !! I could never afford one but it does have the most sophisticated auto tranny I have ever driven, the shifts are ever so smooth and quick. Do I dare say that it may be quicker and smoother than any skilled driver can accomplish with a stick? Please , you stick shifters don't drum me out of this message board, please.

seivwrig · February 2003

Prestige in terms of commonality. The BMW has sold as many 3er as maybe Mitsu has sold Galants (I don't know the trade numbers). But prestige is sometimes associated with rarity. If a Rolls was desirable and sold for $30,000, we would see many Rolls. This would somewhat tarnish the marque or at least the perception that we had of the marque. Ferrari will be deemed as prestigeous based on the idea that it is a dream car that most of us cannot afford. It just like some say that a lease increase the number of people that may be able to drive a particular car. I hope you understand my reasoning on prestige, at least as a concept.

kdshapiro · February 2003

Prestige - from the dictionary:
1. The level of respect at which one is regarded by others; standing.
2. A person's high standing among others; honor or esteem.
3. Widely recognized prominence, distinction, or importance: a position of prestige in diplomatic circles.

This definition from dictionary.com has little to do with sales numbers. I submit BMW, as in definition 3, has achieved a "widely recognized prominence".

To wit, a competitor the G35, who has not sold nearly as many, with your definition would be prestigious, but the dictionary definition would not. (Of course, some defenders might say otherwise, however).

Contrast this definition for a Pinto with the exploding gas tank and you see that it fits definition number 3 nicely. As the Pinto has attained "widely recognized prominence, distinction", but has failed to achieve importance (except in how not to design a car), thus the Pinto cannot be viewed as prestigious.

Mercedes has sold an untold amount of cars, yet they still remain a prestigious brand.

snagiel · February 2003

...but not nearly as much in Europe, where the three-pointed star is affixed to homely little A-class cars, big trucks, taxis, etc. You're right, the 3 series (and 5, while we're at it) has set class standards. And, in a generic sense, the BMW brand is indeed prestigous. Not as much as an exotic, but certainly more than a Honda. But seivwrig's point is correct as well: In affluent sectors of any big city, a 3-series is widely considered a "working man's Accord." Not to disparage Honda or the 3-series, but abundance indeed dilutes prestige, with all due respect to the dictionary.

kdshapiro · February 2003

Not to pick nits, but that is an opinion as opposed to an application of a definition. I know a few people where they consider a Porsche GTR a poor mans car. So we can take the analogy of the masses and keep moving it up the socioeconomic scale until a few million dollars becomes pocket change and nothing becomes relevant.

That's why IMO the dictionary is a good place to start when debating these loosy-goosy parts of life.

riez · February 2003

kdshapiro... Which dictionary? And are we to use American english or English english? I want to ensure my car has a functional boot and stylish bonnet, but she had better go like hell, know how to make it thru the twisties, and be fun to drive.

mseals · February 2003

The dictionary is a great source of definition, but sometimes it can be lacking. The reason is that the dictionary is lagging in terms of social definition of words. Not to debate this topic extensively, but the dictionary is almost a living document which over time changes to accept the social uses of speech and words.

seivwrig · February 2003

I guess in the future I will pull up my dictionary or just stay away from Edmunds. O.K., well maybe I should use a better word. But any debate is really a matter of perspective. Using definition number 1 would apply to BMW as a brand but it might only apply in a certain part of the world. Exotics, we would consider as cars of prestige based on the numbers of vehicles produced.
I was not trying to debate here, because I have not learned to debate or learned the points in good debate. Argue, I an do that but it does not solve anything.
We have different frames of references. I grew up as working class in England. This would mean that if I stilled lived there, I might have not gone to college and drive a BMW. Where I grew up, even a 4-cyl BMW is not common. I presently work in a pretty nice neighborhood. On my ten mile drive, I see an abundance of 3er and 5er. This would lead my small mind to believe that there are a lot of BMW and that a lot of Houstonians could own one, to the point of making BMWs common. This is probably not true but a perception based on a narrow scope. My original post was somewhat written in that same vein. I really pray that my previous post did not offend anyone. If i did, I am truly sorry. But considering the prices of some cars, they are not far from the price of a 3er. Realistically, a 3er and even a 5er could become more common.

kdshapiro · February 2003

We are all just having a little fun given the other serious worldly issues at this point.

Debate is good and debate can be fun. And it certainly reflects on point of view. If you go into a swanky place in So. Cal. and there is a parking lot full of Porsches and 1 Honda. Is the Honda prestigious? Are the Porsches common? Are the Porsches prestigous? Well I think if you lived in So. Cal. you may not find Porsches prestigious, or you may feel you belong to a very special prestigious club.

shipo · February 2003

All of this discussion of what is "Prestigious", while an interesting exercise, seem to me to be missing the original point. What if Seivwrig had said, "It kind of keeps the brand a little exclusive even though a 3er can hardly be considered rare with the recent sales numbers."

Best Regards,
Shipo

kdshapiro · February 2003

I guess I'm trying to understand the connection between prestige and BMW. To me there is a connect the dots loose connection. People do buy "things", huge mansions, huge diamonds, rare works of art, $100,000 watches to set themselves apart from the masses. Is that what we are saying about BMWs that people buy BMWs to set themselves apart. Or do BMWs set themselves apart from other manufacturers because:

1. the price range caters, or will cater many levels,
2. there are a ton of configuration choices,
3. there is an association of performance (not undeserved) with buying BMWs,
4. there is an association of brand name with reputation and quality.

Rarity and prestige has little to do with the fact that riezs' 540i is a joy to drive. Anyway onward and upward.

shipo · February 2003

Hmmm, to me, I like driving a car that is highly capable, first and foremost. That said, I also like driving a car that is not as ubiquitous as the 1998 Green Metallic Dodge Grand Caravan Sport that I am currently driving. Given that my old house in New Jersey was less than a mile from BMW-NA, and that 3s, 5s, 7s, Xs and Zs were about as common as our Caravan, clearly exclusivity was not my first priority. On the other hand, given that I might see one other E39 a day around here in southern New Hampshire (if that many), I really am enjoying (or, at least was) the exclusivity aspect of my 530i.

Best Regards,
Shipo

hicaira · February 2003

Thank you for steering this topic back to the 5 series. I learned long ago that you cannot debate with those who have rigid mind sets: there is no debate; they are right and you are wrong. Fortunately, OCD is treatable, for those who seek it. Besides, anyone who is more hung-up on their preception of their car's "Prestige" (and the definition thereof) than they are on the driving experience needs a psychiatrist a heck of a lot more than they need a BMW.

Now then, anyone know how often (and how reliable) the data is on the BMW Owner's circle web site? (for cars in production) I have come to the conclusion that it is not updated anything close to real-time.

HiC

seivwrig · February 2003

OC is not very reliable

snagiel · February 2003

seivwrig is right. Owner's Circle is nearly worthless as far as being up-to-date, and otherwise a half-baked idea that could be so much more. I haven't looked at it in months, but somehow I doubt much is new. About the only thing there I do like is the ability to view/download manuals and various BMW publications.

To get the (real) status of a car in production, call BMW NA at 800-831-1117, select option 3 (I think), and give them your VIN or production number. They're usually able to give estimates on delivery as well.

mseals · February 2003

Hey kdshipiro and seivwrig, it is funny that one of you lives in the Houston area and one of you lives in the So. Cal. are. I think in this country, those are the denses populations of BMW's. Seriously, I think the highest percentages of BMW's in this country are in those two cities. That being said, I don't think BMW's are as common in other areas, even those that are more affluent. I hope I spelled that right, does someone have a dictionary

. Any way, I live in the Metro Detroit area, and I am not sure if it is still true, but Oakland County is/was the richest county in the country per capita. That even surprised me, but I guess the big three execs are making a lot of money and they are hiring their friends as well. Anyway, due to being the home of the big three, BMW's are not that common, or at least not as common as in Houston or So Cal. If you are thinking of exclusivity based on numbers then think of it this way. If you count all the BMW's sold in America, and compair that number to say, All the Dodges or Chevrolets or Fords sold in the US, then you have an idea that the car is not as common as you might think. I am not sure what BMW sales numbers are, I saw them once but didn't pay too much attention to them since it was no where near the number that scrolls on a bill board here in downtown Detroit which shows the number of cars produced by the big three in the US. Just a thought on this whole subject.

hicaira · February 2003

Thanks for the info. Much appreciated.

HiC

shipo · February 2003

Back when my 530i was being produced, there seemed to be a latentcy of anywhere between a day and a week regarding the "Current Production Status". Then again, once the car hit our shores (I took delivery here a month after I dropped it off in Munich), it seemed like they just stopped updating the status, by that I mean that as of last September, my was still showing as being at the VPC, even though I had been driving it here for four months.

Best Regards,
Shipo

kdshapiro · February 2003

I live on the east coast but have a working knowledge of So. Cal.

joatmon · February 2003

My wife is getting an X5 delivered at the Spartanburg Performance Center on the 28th. The OC info was updated up as soon as it was produced and gave us the VIN. Maybe Spartanburg does a better job of this.

I live about 6 miles from the US factory as the crow flies. BMWs are REALLY popular here.

pap5 · February 2003

Prestige may be something that varies with your demographic. Without going out on a limb, though, it's easy to say that BMW, MB, etc. are prestigious marques in the minds of most Americans. That's a function of relative rarity, relative high cost, and Marketing Dept. footwork, combining with some degree of actual product merit, to produce a common cultural perception. Even in locales swarming with high rollers, does the no. of BMWs on the road at any one time really outnumber any combination of 2 of the Big 5 (Big 3 Detroit + Big 2 Japan)? Also, even though I don't have the data to back this up (do you, Riez?), I would venture that a 3-series stripper goes for at least 20% more than the average new car sold in the U.S. Even we who own BMWs for the "right" reasons (quality + driving experience) occasionally decry those who own them for the "wrong" reasons (prestige).

It's interesting to see how the marketing dept. deals with a prestigious brand going downmarket (3 Series compact, C Class, etc.) to attract lower-end buyers. Quite a balancing act.

Shipo -- I never got very far into DME, VOR, etc. I've mainly done informal right seat/back seat training courtesy of a buddy with a license keeping up his hours. Mainly local VFR day and clear night work, with occasional cross-country jaunts to Tangier Island in the Chesapeake Bay or the NC Outer Banks. He belonged to a flying club based at MCAS Quantico. The club had a couple of old Marine-surplus T-34s, which were a blast to fly compared to the Cessna 172s. Alas, he has since retired and moved back home to NC.

shipo · February 2003

Oh boy! MCAS Quantico! Wow does that take me back, I went through OCS at Quantico back in the summer of 1977 (I heard about Elvis from the Chaplin). I don't think I have been back to that little patch of earth since then. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

kdshapiro · February 2003

stereotype: (def)
A conventional, formulaic, and oversimplified conception, opinion, or image.

Owning BMWs for the right reason or wrong reasons, or even the buyers reasons.

demographic: (def)
a statistic characterizing human populations.

Who is my customer as defined by the marketing department?

The two of these are totally different and stereotypes and generalizations do not help the marketing department sell cars.

pat · February 2003

Our subject is the car itself.

We don't need to get tangled up in stereotypes, generalizations, nor do we need to debate the definitions of same.

Let it go, please.

Thanks.

dabimmer · February 2003

cbgb1975 · February 2003

I followed my car in production on the website and the estimated delivery dates were accurate. My dealer had more updated info, so there is some lag but probably not much. The website was preferable to me than repeatedly calling the dealer.... Since then, the website has been less interesting , though I will be taking advantage of a "Reward" soon on a ski trip. Has anyone gotten worthwhile rewards over the years?

ksqrd · February 2003

Thanks to riez, habitat1 and multiplechoice for the prior posts regarding the possibility of getting three car seats across the back of an E39. Our 8-week old triplets have been home for two weeks now and I'm happy to report that I'm taking delivery tomorrow of a 2001 CPO 530i Sport/Premium, with <14K miles.

Encouraged by multiplechoice's experience getting two infant seats and a booster in his 540i, I attempted to get our three PegPerego infant seats in several E39s. To my surprise, they fit, probably only because the middle seat sits at a somewhat higher (and slightly forward) position. In addition, our folded Triple stroller and all three stroller seats were able to fit in the trunk, albeit only after several attempts at arranging the parts appropriately. Since our primarly baby mover will become our MDX, the E39 needed to serve as a capable (if not ideal) form of transport for the babies. Clearly, our '93 Integra GS-R would no longer do!

I'm thrilled with the car, and we got a good deal (more than 4K under TMV for a CPO car). The dealer let me drive it >100 miles on Tuesday to show the car to my wife at home, and it handled like a dream. I'm very excited about joining the ranks of E39 owners, and will look to further discussions on this board with interest.

BMW 5-Series Sedans

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