BMW 5-Series Sedans

tristanr · February 2003

I recently had a Canadian M540i inspected at a dealership in Canada and they suggested that the rotors and pads be changed. The specs for the rotors are Front right and left - 29.5mm Rear right - 18.1mm and rear left - 18mm. The pads are front right - 7mm left 7.5mm and the rear right 6.5mm and left 6mm.

Any comments on the necessity would be great.

nyccarguy · February 2003

Reiz: you're right (as usual), the trucking industry will fight tooth and nail in order for Diesel Fuel to be made cleaner and cost a few cents more.

I remember reading an article in the British publication CAR maybe a year or so back on a 330d and the writers raved about the car and said they'd definitely take it over a 330i even if gas and diesel were the same price. I think a 530d would be a welcome addition to the BMW lineup (and to US shores). The other BMW that I think would sell very well in the US would be the X5 3.0d. Imagine an X5 3.0d (I hate SUVs in general, but they're not going anywhere so I guess we have to deal with it:) with its BMW-esq handling prowess, the towing capacity that probably exceeds that of the 4.4, great low end torque, that gets somewhere in the neighborhood of 30mpg on the highway. Pretty cool huh?

Unfortunately I think the majority of Americans wouldn't take well to the fact that diesel technology has come further and they'll think of their uncle's 1972 Diesel Mercedes Wagon (much like people who think the 4cylinder engines have no "pickup.").

cdnpinhead · February 2003

I'd be extremely interested in a 530 diesel. The two Audi turbodiesels I rented, plus the VW that came later all had very good acceleration and phenominal fuel mileage. Just as advertised.

Please bring them here.

pen101 · February 2003

jeffry, thank you for your comments. I should hear something back from BMWNA on Monday.

When I called BMWNA Friday morning (9 am), the lady that I spoke with said she would call the dealer right away and see if she could arrange for a representative to check it out. I was encouraged.

However, when I called the dealer Friday afternoon to follow up (3pm), the service advisor said he has yet to be contacted by BMWNA. I then called BMWNA back. Of course, the lady handling my claim had already left for the day. So I called back again and spoke to someone else. They said the claim is in the data base now and they were going to contact the dealer, but that the lady I spoke with is my contact and she is handling it and there is not much more they can do until Monday. This is frustrating, especially when the lady at BMWNA who is handling my claim tells me one thing and does not do it on a timely basis.

We will see what happens on Monday. However, I am not expecting an easy time at this.

akirby · February 2003

kdshapiro - nice post.

div2 - Brian was only defending the statement that the LS wasn't being driven on the track, and that's all he said.

Since BMW is the acknowledged performance leader for sports sedans I think it's significant when an American car even comes close, much less outperforms it. At NO time did I say or imply anything troll like. What I expected was what kdshapiro posted, not lame grandma comments. However, I should have started a new topic under comparisons so for that I will apologize.

div2 · February 2003

Let's see, you brag about your way-kewl sled in a BMW topic-but you don't want to be called a troll. Makes sense to me

As for the "lame grandma" comments, I certainly didn't mean to imply that ANY of the hundreds of elderly LS drivers I've seen were disabled-in fact, most of them looked like they could walk faster than they were driving...
Bottom Line: Enjoy your LS; I hear that Ford won't be building them too much longer

jeffry · February 2003

Pen,

Another thing you might consider if they are not willing to fix it for you. I'd tell them I'll tow it to an independent to be fixed & get a 2nd opinion as well. And if he finds a plain & simple defect I'll be taking them to small claims court. It'd probably be cheaper to fix it there anyhow which would pay for your tow & maybe rental car!

As long as you're 100% sure you did nothing that could have damaged it (& have no teenage son who had access to the car & keys while you're away!!) there is no way it's other than a defect. Surely they'd get that you're pissed & would do it, as a matter of principle, and not want to go thru the hassle themselves......that ought get it handled! Good luck.

habitat1 · February 2003

I would like to add my voice in support of a 330d and/or 530d.

The last Mercedes E300TD (1999) available in the US was very impressive. Acceleration equal to my old 1984 Toyota Supra and 34+ mpg on the highway. A business associate has one and has been offered in excess of $30k by the dealer to sell it back to them (i.e. not a trade, they would give her even more in that case). She (only) paid $43k for it in late 1998 and has 60k flawless miles on it.

My only concern is that one of the big appeals to me of BMW over Mercedes is the tighter handling and steering offered by BMW. Diesel engines are heavy (the Mercedes E300TD weighs about 200-300 lbs more than the otherwise identical E320 3.2 gas version. I would hope that the 330d and/or 530d still handles as competently as their gas counterparts.

P.S. Another business associate refers to his 1990 300D as his "$100,000" Mercedes. He paid $40k for it new, but has deducted over $100,000 in mileage on his taxes (he now has 300k miles on it and it still looks/runs new). After tax, he has actually made money on the car.

im_brentwood · February 2003

They keep asking for them over at roadfly as well.

Seems like it'd make sense.. time will tell, doubt we'll see any E39s as that car is effectively DOA now.

pen101 · February 2003

jeffry, thanks for the additional thoughts.

I just got off the phone with BMWNA Customer Relations. When I dialed the extension for the representative that took my claim, I got a recording that she will not be in today for "personal" reasons and will be unable to take any calls or messages. So, I called back to speak with a different customer relations representative and they said that she is the only one that can move the claim along and that I have to wait until she returns to get anything done.

I called the BMW dealership, and the service advisor said that he has yet to hear from BMW. He says there is nothing he can do until he hears from BMWNA. So, I am stuck. I will loose another day waiting to hear from BMW. If this was Lexus or another car brand, I am sure I would be treated better.

I asked the service advisor if I were to take the car now to another repair place, how much work has been put in the car so far. He says $330.

hicaira · February 2003

Until we get the low sulpher diesel fuel I doubt we will see these sold here. As of now, the California Air Resources Board has a dim view of diesels - mostly due to the particulate pollution - and has made is difficult for them to pass CA emissions. That's why the only diesels you see are for full sized heavy-duty trucks that have a GVW high enough for exemption and the really small 4cyls that have low enough emissions to pass. The combination of low sulpher fuel and particulate traps (filters, actually) will finally allow diesels to enter the mainstream. I think we'll have to wait until the 2006 or 2007 MY year though. Shortly after that I's also expect to see more hybreds running on diesel engines.

pen: fight on. My boss recently lost the clutch in his M5 with only 6,000 miles. When the dealer asked "What did you do to it?" and he answered "Drove it!", they replaced at no cost and no fuss. Turns out the clutch was never fully disengaging. If that was the case in your car you would have smelled burning clutch from time to time. Sudden failure suggests something else anyway.

HiC

im_brentwood · February 2003

Pen,

If you cant get her tomorrow, surely she has a boss. What dealer if I may ask? I might know someone there.. you never know.

Hic,

It's frustrating. For those of you who havent driven one.. WOW. It's made it to my top 10 list of "cars we can't have and have no idea what we're missing". (Others include Lotus Carlton/Omega, Alfa 156, etc...)

mseals · February 2003

Guys,

I really applaud the diesel cars on the road. Before I decided to go the CPO used car route and get my 528 I almost bought a new Jetta TDI. My only delima was that VW is suppose to be coming out with a more powerful diesel in a few years. I also heard that the lower sulfur fuel will be coming pretty soon, more like 2004 or 2005. I also heard that they are going to stagger the drop in sulfer, meaning that they will make is like 15% in 2004, and then something like 10% in 2005. That was the word on why VW was holding out on the more powerful diesel engine, something like 150 hp and 255 ft/lb of torque.

seichler · February 2003

First, I want to thank the group at large on this message board who have passed along very insightful and informative dialogue on the topic of BMW 5 series cars. At times there can be a lot of banter about many matters, some on point, some not at all, and I really try not to waste anyone's time, so I have not posted very often to this board.

Second, I wanted to let the members of this board, especially those in the Detroit metro area, know that I have just ordered my second BMW, and both have been with Brad Hutto at Erhard BMW in Bloomfield Hills. Both purchases have been with an individual who has been knowledgeable and responsive. I have purchased many cars over the yaers and it is always a huge benefit to work with people like Brad. I share this only because I see others out there not having the best experiences with whom they are working.

I cannot help from being a little giddy in having placed my order for a 2003 M5. I really wanted it when I purchased the 540, but didn't feel comfortable making the stretch then. With the new 5 series coming out, I have been deliberating over this purchase for almost a year. I am concerned about the new design and have listened to many of you who have the same concerns, so I finally landed on the side of securing what I think may be a little piece of history for the BMW 5 series before it is no longer made. Yes, I could have opted for a used one, but there is nothing like being able to make choices about a car (colors and options) that are individual likes. Thanks to everyone who has given me input either directly or indirectly.

Lastly, if anyone is interested, or knows of someone interested, I am going to try to sell the 2000 540i6sp private party to "earn" a little more towards the new purchase. It is in mint condition. For more details please feel free to e-mail me directly at seichler@efafunding.com so as not to add any unnecessary congestion to this message board, unless other people are interested in the data points for their own reference.

Thank you again to all.

pobrian · February 2003

I recently bought a set of used rims off a 2000 (non-Sport) 540i. The rims came with the center bmw-insignia caps. The caps clearly fit the rim, but won't seem to "snap" into place. Anyone have any experience with getting these on?

Thanks

mseals · February 2003

Glad to hear about your purchase. If I had known about you 540i 6sp I would have seriously looked into the purchase of it. I just bought my first BMW back in Oct. I bought a used CPO'd 1998 528i 5sp from a guy for $16500. I thought it was a great deal and I always wanted a BMW since the mid 80's when I first started driving. Now that I have had my first one, I don't think I could do back to any other model of car. I am thinking of selling this in a couple of years though and checking out what the 3ers is like. Maybe a 330 Ci coupe not convertible. I am not a big fan of big cars and normally I like smaller nimbler cars, but once I test drove the 5er I was just so amazed at how it handles like a car of smaller size. I am achieving the goals in my life that I had wanted from a monetary stand point so that is a good feeling. I just have to make sure I put money away for early retirement

pen101 · February 2003

The car is at Rusnak BMW in Westlake Village, CA. I left a message this morning on voice mail for my representative at BMWNA. No reply as yet. Also spoke to a third person today at BMWNA who says that their files show that she is working on it. However, no call back as yet from her or the dealer. I am wondering if I can take them to small claims court locally. I cannot see them spending the money to hire a representative to appear and fight my claim. The bill for the clutch will be $1,007.81 including tax.

silverprincess · February 2003

Considering getting this car for wifey:

"2000 BMW 528i Black/Black, leather, 95K miles, Sport Pkg (17 x 8.0 alloy wheels, M-Technic sport suspension; M-Technic sport steering wheel with multi-function controls; 12-way power front sport seats with adjustable thigh support, Premium Pkg (Montana leather upholstery and door trim; High-gloss Vavona Redwood trim; Automatic-dimming inside rear-view mirror; Rain-sensing windshield wipers and automatic headlight control; Upgraded on-board computer), Steptronic, Reverse Sensors, Sunshades, Moonroof, 17" wheels, xenon lights....loaded and very clean!!!"

www.edmunds.com prices it at $24.5k for that high of mileage. Seller is willing to let it go for $21k.

Would you buy a car with this mileage if the car was well-cared for? The story is that the first owner had long daily commutes. Current seller is the 2nd owner and is a BMW mechanic (for an independent shop) and got a good deal on the car cuz first owner was out of job for 1 1/2 years and finally decided to move back home and needed cash. Current owner does NOT think that Inspection II and 90k mile tuneup were done on the car (no service records).

He's selling cuz bought the car for wifey but she doesn't want it (too big, she wants a E46). He's owned it for only a month and has already replaced belts and new brake pads and discs.

CarFax gives a clean report. Couple minor dings and probably couple hundred dollars worth of repaint/touch ups.

Pictures are coming soon and I still need to see the car in person. Would really appreciate some feedback!

riez · February 2003

silverprincess... If it was me, I'd probably pass. Fact the 2nd owner has only had it for 1 month would make me nervous. And if there are no service records, that would make me very, very nervous indeed! Plus, if the car has 95K miles and the current owner has only had it for one month, how come the most recent inspection wasn't done? You should look at the inspection lights. How many colored bars are left?

How many miles a year do you drive? How long do you think you'd keep this particular car?

Have you checked out other BMWs in your area, both CPO and non-CPO?

I wouldn't buy it unless I met the first owner. Ask that person for service records. If they don't have, then ask what BMW dealer they had all or most work done at. Then call that dealer to get service history information.

snagiel · February 2003

The seller's credentials aside, if you're seriously considering it I'd recommend taking it to an independent shop experienced with BMW's (most larger cities have several) to get a thorough checkup, which might run $50-$100. I don't think you'll be able to find a warranty for such high miles, so even a model in good shape may easily cost $1000-2000 annually on maintenance. For the price, I might try finding a CPO'd 328/330, but that's stricly MHO.

im_brentwood · February 2003

Hmmm...

Price is nothing special really, about average retail with those miles. I'd say that if it DOES check out and you DO buy it $17-18K is closer to reality.

See, in my experience as a dealer, the online guides just don't properly punish cars with megamiles. If I could get $24,500 for 10 cars like that.. well.. I'd be making $75,000 a month! (It's a $15K wholesale car, maybe 16K soaking wet IMO)

Even if it is nice.. my suggestion is to either..

A) Go and buy one with about 45K miles for about 24-27K depending on miles/options or..

Go with a 98/99 with lower miles for that kind of money.

There's just oodles of 5ers out there, you can do better.

Bill

mseals · February 2003

I would have to say pass on that. I would be very leary of a used car with miles that high and now know of any service record. I would be asking why a BMW mechanic wouldn't do the inspection II as soon as he got the car if he had it for a month. My standard procedure is to get an oil change as soon as I buy a used car, whether it neeeds it or not. The other point is that the price seems pretty high for those miles, especially for a luxury brand. Brentwoodvolvo is right in the pricing. I bought a 98 with 80k miles for $16500 and I knew before hand that the inspection II was coming up. I found an independent BMW shop who did it for $500 and I was good to go. I think edmunds rated my car at about $20k or so. There are definitely deals out there in this market for 5ers, just look at all places first. The first owner leased the car and put 30k miles on it in three years. All service was done at the dealership, I assume since it was under the free maintenance period. The second guy got all his work done at one of two dealerships but he put 50k miles on the car in two years. He drove roughly 175 miles round trip to work and it was all freeway. He did get all the maintenance done on the car regularly, he is an attorney and didn't want to be bothered with the maintenance any more so he bought a Lexus ES300. There are plenty of cars for sale around $20k that will meet all the options you said with lower miles. If you are in Houston or Los Angeles I would definitely check out Ebay. I ended up getting my car from Ebay and was lucky that the guy was local so I got to test drive the car before I bid.

bigrobnh · February 2003

Do you folks know if there are any plans for an AWD version of the 5 Series?

Thanks,
BigRob.

div2 · February 2003

You asked: <Do you folks know if there are any plans for an AWD version of the 5 Series?>

Yes. BMW already builds it. It's called an X5.

im_brentwood · February 2003

Sorry man.. I dunno anyone there..

habitat1 · February 2003

Personally, I wouldn't necessarily rule out a higher mileage 528i just because of the higher mileage, as long as you were buying from the original owner or a highly reputable dealer and could personally verify exactly how the car was driven and maintained.

However, buying the car from a second owner is just enough to put me in suspicion. Especially given that he is a mechanic and has only owned the car for a month. The story that his "wifey" wants something smaller smells like horse____ to me. I'd guess that either he stole the car (figuratively, let's hope not literally) and is trying to make a speculative profit or that he bought it and now knows something he's not telling you.

No matter what, that's not the kind of seller I would buy a 90k mile 2000 528i from at any price.

P.S. At 90k miles, I would expect to pay no more than about 40% of what a new vehicle sells for. Given that you can get a fully loaded, more powerful 530i for about $42-$45k, the most I would pay for a used 528i with that kind of mileage is in the $16-17k range. And then, only from a reputable source.

div2 · February 2003

Yep, that 5er has "Run Away!!!!!!" written all over it. The miles don't bother me so much as the price, the seller, and the lack of a service history. Let Mr. Wrench ream someone else.

spyderred · February 2003

'01 525i/5 speed, 13,000 miles, had an intermediate oil change about 6 month ago at Long Beach BMW. Car has not been in service yet for anything except for the intermediate oil change. Still shows 1 green indicator light for the oil service. This morning's drive into work @ 5:45am was the usual half hour drive, which was about 30 miles. Once I got to work, after turning off car while key was still in the ignition, I noticed that the oil level indicator was illuminated YELLOW. It wasn't on at all while I was driving. So I turn the key back to "on" without starting the car, then turn the ignition key to "off". The oil indicator light goes off. I thought this was strange. I repeat the process. Turn the ignition key on and start the car, I notice that the oil indicator light illuminates RED, wait a few seconds then it doesn't stay illuminated (which is normal). I get out and decide to check the oil level eventhough the car was driven for half an hour. The oil level seemed normal. Wipe, reinsert, recheck, rewipe. Normal. Any idea why the oil indicator light would illuminate YELLOW instead of the normal RED? I am planning on rechecking the oil level later today after the car cools. Any concern with driving it home?

TIA,
Spyderred.

pap5 · February 2003

My wandering eye and cheatin' heart about to get me into trouble. Came across a '00 540i6 at a local megadealer's lot (not BMW, so not CPO). Supposedly traded on something new. One owner, black/sand, 25.5K miles, looks good, 10 mos. left on new car warranty. Only options I can spot are power sunshade, CD changer, M parallel spoke wheels. Clean Carfax FWIW. Asking $37,300 (which is $2000-$3,000 under KBB and TMV) with some squiggle available. I would make purchase contigent upon contact with the previous owner and inspection of service records.

I'll probably never get this past my wife, but would be interested in your thoughts anyway. Thanks.

habitat1 · February 2003

I apologize if I sound like a broken record on this, but given what you can get a brand new 2003 540i 6-speed for through ED, I think $37,300 (or even $35,000) is way too high for a 3 year old one, even if it only has 25k miles.

I just checked Eurobuyers" and the ED invoice price for a 2003 540i 6-speed is $47,225. Add $1,300 gas guzzler, $695 destination and handling, $1,200-1,500 dealer profit, and $1,000 for the trip, and you are at $51.4 - $51.7k, not including options. But this is a 2003, with a few more horsepower and the upgraded wheels (suspension?) from the M5. The only options really left to consider are navigation and hi-fi stereo.

Buying a 3 year old car for $70-75% of the cost of a brand new one just doesn't make sense in my book. Especially given that you won't spend anything on maintenance and repairs on a new one for the next 4 years.

If you have a price limit (as I do), a new 530i 5-speed makes seems more prudent to me than a three year old 540i 6-speed. Besides, ever since I drove an M5, I realize that once you succumb to power, even the 540i 6-speed isn't enough.

hnn · February 2003

chrism124, any update on your 530i software upgrade?

As shipo stated in his previous post, the dealer will not advertise that there is new eng. software update for 530i. If they do then they will be very busy updating firmware on car modules!! Hnn

pap5 · February 2003

Understood. Unfortunately, the only prayer I have of convincing a reluctant spouse to buy in would be to keep the purchase price very close to the selling price of my '01 530iA, which I hope could be in the $35.5K range to a private party. Even the delta to a new ED 530i (which is how we got this one) would put it psychologically out of range. Why unload the 530iA at all? The "A" part. Transmission type was a non-negotiable with her when we placed the order two years ago, but I might have better luck now if I could convince her that we would be moving into what had been a $60,000 automobile new.

riez · February 2003

pap5... Since you are so close to warranty expiration, I would NOT buy. But then I'm a huge fan of BMW CPO program. Check CPO prices for similar car. If you find one, try to negotiate hard. What is worst BMW dealer can say? He won't take your final offer? Oh well. Nothin' ventured, nothin' gained.

Pace Habitat1's erudite position, I completely DISAGREE with his Euro-buyer analysis. Add $4-5,000 in actual and opportunity costs. Even using his figure, that has the realized cost over $55,000. Not to mention time delay.

Better analysis is based looking at current MY 2003 540i6s actually sitting on dealers' lots today. What are the MSRPs? What are they asking? If you negotiated hard, what would you pay for one? Then use that figure to see what the depreciation is.

Too bad for us all, but 5 Series hold their value pretty darn well! Add CPO status to mix and your costs go up even more. But since they are truly great cars, they are worth it. CPO or new.

Have you thought about buying a MY 2003 525i with 5-speed manual and Sport Package? Still a great car! My local dealer has a nice black/black one. Thinking the MSRP is around $42,000. A good negotiator likely could get it down to around $40,000.

habitat1 · February 2003

pap,

A 2000 540i 6-speed with 25k miles for $37,300 isn't a horrific deal. I sold mine with 37k miles for $39k in April, 2002 to a business associate when I traded up to an M5. He was recently offered $30k in trade-in on a new M3. The car now has 48k miles.

habitat,

I agree with your analysis completely. I too would not buy a 3 year old car for only a 30% discount off the price of a brand new one; especially a high performance, manual transmission car. That said, there are plenty of buyers in the market that have a lot more comfort writing a $35k check than a $50-$55k check.

As for your ED analysis, it's right on. One of my employees got a 2003 530i for exactly $1,400 over ED invoice and the total cost of her 3 day trip (booked well in advance) was $875. European airfares are very inexpensive nowadays.

riez,

Not sure what the "erudite position" remark was or why you seem so skeptical of ED. BMW's program is the last great deal out there of all the manufacturer's who used to have such programs. But if you insist on disbelieving, have habitat go get your car for you and pay him $2,000 over his quoted figure. You'll both end up happy!

needashave · February 2003

Hi Folks,

I'm a bit confused about the pricing on a 2001 525 auto, premium, cold weather, sunroof. My gut tells me the TMV and KBB are overstated. Anyone care to share recent experience on a similair purchase? Happy motoring.

riez · February 2003

epn2... With all due respect to habitat1's (and your) learned position on the subject...

I remain a sceptic. Unconvinced by all the anectodal evidence. Why? 'cause no one has ever set out a detailed analysis of ALL actual and opportunity costs. No one sets forth how much time it takes. All the small costs. The delays.

I'm talking everything from passports, currency exchange, airfare, hotels, meals, insurance, misc hassles, etc. Lost work revenue. Burned up vacation time. Etc! The whole 9 yards!!! Add it all up and I do not think the economics works clearly and convincingly to its favor. Might be close, but if only a small amount in favor, then is it worth it?

And those extolling its virtues always seem to point to a select group of dealers, who appear to be few and far away, who willingly discount off ED price. But will that apply to all dealers? Mine? What if I don't want to go 1,000 miles to find that dealer? Let along go a couple thousand miles just to get the car.

And will I have hassle with my USAA car insurance? Can I get competitive financing? Or do I have to go thru BMW Financial Services?

riez · February 2003

epn2... Forgot to mention the following: time. How much is your time worth? For me, I "discount" my time at $30 per hour.

All the extra time involved with ED, including that tied to travel, has to be calculated and then costed out. Will I sit around all day or days in a dealer's showroom? NO. I won't spend but a couple hours dealing with dealers. Buying a car shouldn't take too much time. Even if you get a good deal. I've done most of my recent car buying over internet and telephone. I do my research, show them I'm a qualified serious buyer, try to make a hard-nosed deal, and then make my best offer. If they don't take it, I pass. Often they call me back to take my deal. If not, we go our separate ways.

sergeym · February 2003

There is no way you can get a brand new 2003 540i/6 for anywhere around $35K even through ED. Where you've got your numbers from?

shipo · February 2003

As some of y'all might remember Riez and I have had several go-arounds about the cost effectiveness of using BMWs ED program for obtaining a new BMW. I of course am very much a supporter of the ED route, Riez is very much the skeptic. Who is right? Both of us, depending upon an individuals point of view regarding factors that are both tangible and otherwise.

As an example, flying from the East Coast to Munich is a matter of only 8 hours over and 9 hours back (Lufthansa nonstop JFK-MUC $629, Note: Northwest/KLM have a flight that connects through AMS for $468, however, it takes a lot longer). If on the other hand, you are flying from Omaha, NE, the flight duration is more like 14 hours over and 16 hours back (OMA-MSP-AMS-MUC $598), so the economics of time change somewhat.

That said, for the "Quick and Dirty" ED trip from the East Coast, according to my accounting, the entire thing can be done for about $1,500 (see below for the accounting) cash out of pocket and a single day off work. Using my deal as an example, I saved $5,300 off MSRP plus another $408 in sales tax for a total savings of about $5,700 on the delivered vehicle. Not too bad for missing a day of work.

Consider the following itinerary:

17-Apr-2003 5:00 PM  Depart from office via Limo bound for JFK Airport ($65)
17-Apr-2003 8:15 PM  Lufthansa #411 Departs JFK ($629)
18-Apr-2003 10:05 AM  Lufthansa #411 Arrives MUC
18-Apr-2003 12:00 PM  Through Customs and have a bite to eat
18-Apr-2003 12:30 PM  Buy a 3 day Munich U-Bahn (Subway) Pass ($12)
18-Apr-2003 12:35 PM  Board the S8 train bound for Marienplatz station
18-Apr-2003 1:00 PM  Board the U6 train bound for Freimann (if memory serves)
18-Apr-2003 1:15 PM  Walk from Freimann station to the ED Center (1 Kilometer)
18-Apr-2003 1:30 PM  Arrive at the BMW ED Center, and check in
18-Apr-2003 2:15 PM  Advisor gives you a complete briefing on your car
18-Apr-2003 2:45 PM  Driving your new BMW all of 6 miles to E.H. Harms
18-Apr-2003 4:00 PM  Drop off process complete, walk back to the U-Bahn
18-Apr-2003 4:40 PM  Check into the Hotel Uhland for 2 nights ($150)

Between check-in and check-out on Sunday 20-Apr-2003, you are on your own to see the sights, shop, drink beer or just sleep. Regardless of what you do, and any money you spend, the costs cannot be added to the cost of the trip as these are discretionary expenditures, and for food, you have to eat anyway, so that does not count either.

20-Apr-2003 12:00 PM  Check out of the Hotel Uhland
20-Apr-2003 12:15 PM  Take a train from just outside the hotel to MUC Airport
20-Apr-2003 1:00 PM  Check in for Lufthansa #410
20-Apr-2003 3:30 PM  Lufthansa #410 Departs MUC
20-Apr-2003 6:25 PM  Lufthansa #410 Arrives JFK
20-Apr-2003 7:10 PM  Through Customs, find Limo and ride home ($65)

Beyond the above travel expenses, the only extra expense you will incur is an extra month of financing, which in my case is $558, so according to my above numbers and the extra payment, the total cost of the trip comes out to $1,479, yielding a net savings of $4,200 on a car configured like mine. Even if you are inclined to add your lost pay (or vacation time) for the single (Friday) day off of work, it is still unlikely that you will erase the entire savings.

If on the other hand you are already planning a trip to Europe, as I was, and if you were going to have to rent a car anyway (as I would have done), not only can you eliminate the travel expenses from the equation, but you can add back the cost of the car rental as well, which is about $300 per week for a VW Jetta class of car. Given that I spent a week over there, my total savings is more like $6,000 compared to what it would have been if I had paid MSRP here in the States AND taken the trip to Paris anyway.

Best Regards,
Shipo

pen101 · February 2003

Just to put closure on this issue (at least for me), I was forced to pay for the clutch. Without going into details, let me just say BMWNA was no help and offered no support. However, I was able to get a 20% discount on parts and labor from the dealer. Total bill was still about $740.

I also asked the dealer to check if the car had the latest software available for throttle response and engine management. He told me that he checked and the car had the latest software versions. How could this be when my car was manufactured in 11/2001 and shipo and others are talking about more recent updates?

It is too bad about the lack of customer support. I have two customer satisfaction surveys in front of me, including one from J.D.Power, and I can tell you that BMW is not going to rate very high with me. However, when I took the car out for a drive today for the first time in a week, and downshifted into a turn (no clutch slippage of course), and then accelerated out of it, the reason why I purchased the car in the first place came back to me. I love the way it drives.

snagiel · February 2003

Sorry to hear of the end result. If it's any consolation, the clutch on my former '98 Passat 1.8T burned out by 29k miles (I chipped the engine, so I didn't even try to blame VW). And a new clutch there was about $1250.

Your observation about the tension between the car's supreme driving dynamics and the often sub-par customer support network has echoed for years. It really is a shame, since anecdotally you always hear about how wonderful Lexus and Mercedes-Benz dealers (and national office support) are. It seems the only time BMW NA really responds is in widescale egregious and shameful gaffes, like the M3 engine fiasco. When you have many people bad-mouthing the company (who were right on, in my opinion, in light of BMW's arrogance), they eventually cave. Remember the guy who registered and publicized www.donotbuyabmw.com? Some of the stories there were either fake or submitted by complete morons, but BMW NA finally gave him a brand new M3 (in exchange for the site and his problematic M3) to shut him up.

Anyway, have fun going at it with the surveys, but you'd probably be better served directing your frustration with BMW NA, not your dealer. It might be worthwhile writing BMW NA a formal complaint letter about the whole ordeal, pointing out you've lost faith and now cannot recommend BMW's to your friends. It just may fall on a sympathetic ear.

snagiel · February 2003

I recently read an extensive article about the Mercedes Maybach, and my jaw remained firmly dropped throughout most of story. Aside from all the luxury, technological, and mechanical marvels you could ever imagine, it also discussed the customer service program.

Of course, ordering the "car" is more akin to commissioning a painting. But Mercedes smartly places even more emphasis on post-delivery customer care. Highly trained and capable "Personal Liaison Managers" are each responsible for a handful of Maybach owners. When an owner needs ANYTHING related to the car (oil change, feature upgrade, or just know how to stack a dozen grey poupons in the mini fridge), there's a button in the car which calls him directly, 24x7. And, if heaven forbid, the beast breaks down, Maybach will immediately deploy a closed-container tow truck and a specially-trained technician to oversee the repairs, even if he has to fly there. And the owner gets trip interruption services and accomodations, some lowly backup car like an S500, and the Liaison's deepest apologies.

I guess that's what a $350k car will get you.

habitat1 · February 2003

riez,

You don't want to know what my hourly rate is for doing something that is "work". I happily pay my company attorneys $350/hr to cover some of those items. I guess I just don't consider a hop over to Europe to pick up a BMW and have a Heinekin or two with the Motorsport guys that much work. On the other hand, if you only discount your time at $30/hour, you probably should be looking at ED for your next BMW, even if it is painful "work". You should also pay shipo about $60 for his detailed analysis in response to your request for more than anectdotal evidence. I didn't keep as detailed records from my 1999 trip.

The bottom line of this is simple, if you (or others) don't think the "hassles" of getting a passport, etc. are worth the savings, that's fine. But you should refrain from suggesting to others that it isn't a great deal. Not only was my assistant able to upgrade from a 330i to a 530i for nearly the same price by going ED, she brought back some great photos and memories that she will enjoy for many years to come.

SergeyM,

I don't see anywhere in the above posts in which it was suggested that you could get a 540i 6-speed for $35k. Re-read.

Shipo,

Excellent accounting. I wish my CFO was as meticulous. Oops, I am the interim CFO. Want a job?

riez · February 2003

epn2... I would suggest that it is you and some others who are the ED fanatics, making it seem as if those of us who don't do ED are out of our minds. Using your own words, you should refrain from suggesting to others that it is such a good deal.

shipo... Again, you don't account for all expenses nor describe the amount of time it takes to do the negotiating with the dealer, trip planning, getting passports, exchanging currency, waiting in airports, meals & miscellaneous expenses, etc. (After your whirlwind little trip, think I'd need a couple days to recover from the jet lag, waiting in airports, and, in some cases, discomfort of cramped flying.) As for your price, was your dealer willing to negotiate ED list price down? Not all dealers will do that. Certainly not out here in the sticks where there aren't that many BMW dealers.

ED may or may not be such a good deal. Depends on each person's circumstances. Depends on all costs. Depends on time factors. Depends on hassle factors. There is no one right or wrong answer.

riez · February 2003

epn2... I was trying to be conservative. You are right, a more accurate discount rate might include benefit costs and all taxes. My $30/hr figure excluded benefits (add another 40%) and was done after all taxes (add another 44% for federal & state income taxes and social security & medicare taxes). So that $30/hr might actually be closer to $55/hr ($30 plus $12 plus $13). [But doing that bolsters my position on the opportunity cost of ED.]

chrism124 · February 2003

Yesterday I had the dealer perform the ECU software upgrade. Have I noticed a difference since the upgrade? Yes, but only a minor change in the throttle response (for the better). My car was built in December 01. Not sure what software version I had nor what version I now have. My dealer, being Tulley BMW, performed this service, at no cost. I must comment that their service department has been excellent for the times that I have used them. I also took a chance and had them switch my winter tires for the summer/all season ones. It is nice to have my handling back. That is as along as it doesnt snow again.

I have made the statement before that I regret not specifying my car to have the Sport Pkg and 5-speed. While it is still a great car, it could have been better. Anyway the dealer had a 03 525i Sterling Gray/Black with Sport & 5-speed on their showroom floor. Except that I have the 530i it was my exact car. Hmm, what could have been?

Chris M

sergeym · February 2003

Sorry, my mistake.

pap5 · February 2003

Thanks for the responses. For reasons of family harmony I probably won't pursue the matter. But I'd like to respond to some of the specifics:

epn -- Your 30% differential between a new 540i6 and the '00 I drove is spot on, assuming similar equipment and a $1,500 dealer profit (but not trip costs). That said, the $52,335 for the ED vehicle, bargain that it may be, is well beyond the realm of possibility. I'm curious about your misgivings regarding a "high performance, manual transmission car." I thought it was the BMW automatics that run the risk of failure above 100K miles. With a stick, under normal use you may replace a clutch once (pen101's screwing by BMWUSA notwithstanding), and that's about it.

riez -- Though a well-equipped 525i obtained via ED might be comparably priced, I'm not interested. Even with a stick, I would want more engine. I find even the 530i/Step combo to be wanting at times. As for ED, it seems that your main objections fall into the "time-is-money" category. If you're an entrepeneur or a commissioned salesman, where no work = no income, then the opportunity costs of a trip to Europe are indeed steep. For a salaryman like me who accrues vacation time (in fact, I have to forfeit unused hours above a certain cap), however, the only expenses that count are out-of-pocket, netted against costs such as meals that would be incurred at some level anyway. Assuming habitat's employee truly paid no more than $875 total for her trip, her cost was still $1,900 less than for a stateside deal at a similar $1,400 markup. And I'm not so jaded that I wouldn't consider even a short visit to Munich a plus, even given the hassles of travel nowadays.

habitat1 · February 2003

The "gross" savings of ED are real and anyone can do that math. But I will concede that, depending upon your situation and perspective, there may be some actual and imputed costs that will result in differences in our respective "net" savings.

You seem to want to subtract every conceivable minute of your time including a "recovery" period from the trip. And I don't fault you for looking at it that way, if for you, this would all be a significant no-enjoyment hassle. I racked up 750,000 United frequent flier miles back in 1988-1995, so I'm used to exchanging currency and getting my passport stamped. On the other hand, if I had to use time off from work that would infinge upon my ability to take a separate vacation with my wife and kids, I wouldn't do ED either.

It reminds me of the golf analogy: First question, What would someone have to pay you to carry a 40lb bag 5+ miles over 5+ hours on a hot summer day? Second question: How much would you pay to play Augusta National just once, even if it meant carrying your own bag in 90 degree weather?

P.S. The most convenient BMW dealer to me is notoriously very difficult to negotiate with on any car in high demand. I know of several people who have come away exhausted and / or empty handed when the 530i was a hot ticket. Even though they sell in excess of 1,500 BMW's a year, they wanted to maximize profit on their precious US delivery allocation. But as soon as I contacted their ED specialist with the $1,300 over ED invoice deal I could get elsewhere, his response was "no problem, we'll match it." It doesn't come out of their US allocation, but does count towards their sales bonuses. So, in my case, the dealer negotiations would be a lot cleaner and easier going the ED route.

shipo · February 2003

Regarding negotiations with the dealer:

I got on the BMWUSA web site, obtained the name and phone number of the four closest dealers (all within 15 miles), that took 10 minutes, tops. I then called the first dealer, got a salesman on the phone and said, "Will you sell me a 530i via the BMW European Delivery Program for $1,500 over ED Invoice?"

His response was, "Hmmm, we don't usually do that kind of deal. Can I call you back in 10 minutes?"

"Yes, my phone number is..."

Eight minutes later, he called me back and asked me, "If I agree to this deal, are you ready to buy right now?"

"If you agree, I will be there in less than an hour to sign the paperwork and pay you a deposit."

The entire transaction was over in less than two hours from the time when I first looked up the list of the dealerships.

Trip Planning:

In my case, this is less of an issue as we were going to Europe anyway; however, using Expedia.com, it took me about 20 minutes to make the plane reservations R/T to Munich and the hotel reservations in Paris. As we were going in April, I didn't figure on having too much of a problem finding hotel rooms while we were touring, and I didn't.

Passports:

I do not count this as a valid expense. Passports are good for 10 years, and can be renewed by mail. A new Passport costs $85 (regardless of whether it is a new issue or a renewal) to process. In addition, you need two "Passport Photographs" of yourself, so when I include my time to have the pictures taken, the time to print out the application (http://travel.state.gov/DS-0011.pdf), fill it out, lick the envelope, stamp it and mail it, we are still talking less than $200, which works out to $20 per year. Given that I used my Passport twice last year, the cost that can be allocated for my ED trip is $10.

Miscellaneous Expenses:

IMHO, expenses for meals and such are not valid as one must eat anyway, that and you are fed two meals (dinner and breakfast over, and lunch and a snack on the way back) each way. In Europe many hotels include a breakfast or offer one for a very nominal charge (the Hotel Uhland is no exception). Basically that means that you need to provide for your own dinner Friday and Saturday nights and you Lunch on Saturday, everything else is covered. Once again, you will need to eat anyway, will it cost you more to eat in Munich than here in the States? Probably not by much, if at all.

Exchanging Currency:

We now live in the era of the ATM, I haven't "Exchanged Currency" since 1991. These days, you simply walk up to the nearest ATM, stick in your card, and out pops local currency, debited directly to your account, and with no "Exchange Fees" associated, you get the EXACT prevailing exchange rate.

Waiting around in airports:

Hmmm, nobody can "Bill" all of the time, we all need some "Down time". I use airport and airplane time as the time to catch up on reading the latest Tom Clancy or Nelson Demille. Maybe I'm just wierd, however I actually look foreward to this time just so that I can relax. Needless to say, in my mind, this is "No Charge".

Final Thoughts:

Riez, you must understand, you and I sing from the same page of the BMW Hymnal on most things BMW. I know that I can count on you being my "Loyal Opposition" regarding the ED thing, as you can count upon me being the same for you. In the end, we are both right, it just depends upon what one's priorities are. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

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