BMW 5-Series Sedans

5speed5 · April 2003

Hello,

Well first off, there is a GREAT difference between a Minivan and a 5 series, especially when it comes down to the kids aspect.

Let me answer your question about the Sport package first. This consists of larger rim diameter (17" vs. the standard 16") and lower profile tires (less rubber between the wheel and the road). The purpose of this, is to give the car more 'sportier' handling and grip, especially in the turns. With that in mind, the package also has stiffer shocks, and springs that lower the car to the ground. The trade-off to this is a ride that is 'harsher' to your passengers. You will feel every road discrepancy in your driving. The taller profile tires and softer shocks of a 'non-sport' package car will be much more forgiving and absorb the bumps and jolts more. Two other aspects of the sport package are a 3 spoke 'sport' steering wheel (vs. the regular 4 spoke) and the exterior trim is 'blacked out' instead of chrome.

The premium package really has no bearing on the sport package. It is basically a way of ordering all the 'non-standard' options together. Leather seats, wood trim on dash and doors, dual zone climate, on-board computer etc. It's pretty much a 'must' when ordering a 5 series.

Now, as far as the kids in the rear aspect, you didn't mention the age of the kids, but let me give you my experience with 2,5,7,& 12 years olds that have been back there. MISERABLE!! For me, and them. First off, the cupholders, they are located at the back of the center console, on the floor by the driveshaft hump. As soon as a foot comes near them (mine, from getting in and out and the kids), they pop out and break. Heck, the ones in the front break, and that's without doing anything. Many trips to the dealer to fix them. Next, the seats back there sit low, and the 5 and 7 year olds complain that they can't see out the windows, period. Is it secure back there for car seats, VERY, but the rear of the 5 series is still somewhat cramped compared to other cars in it's class. On a day to day basis, bending in and out in the rear is more tedious than a vehicle that is more open in the rear.

Don't get me wrong with this, the 5 series is a great car, and I can understand the desire for not wanting a minivan. There are other 'sportier' options to the minivan as well, Acura MDX, BMW X5 (or 5 series station wagon-more interior room). Also the Lexus RX300 (now a RX330) rides like a 'sporty' car, but has the features of a minivan. This is the reason it is Lexus' best selling vehicle.

I hope I have given you some insight into your questions. (Based upon actual expreience with 2000 BMW 5 series w/Sport/Premium)

jb_shin · April 2003

I had posted this a while ago, but there seems to be ways to go around BMW-type security system. One of the people worked at my wife's office picked up a brand new Audi A6 (which has similar anti-theft system, I think) to take back to the states. Well, within 2 weeks, the car was gone and never to be seen again. It turns out, Audi's, A6 in particular is very popular in former Eastern Bloc countries and Russia. So, the auto-theft rings there picked up matching ECU and key and whatever else they needed to start the car and simply swap it out with cars they want to steal. Then they actually pick a target on the road and follow it around until opportunity arises. I am not sure if the same is true for BMW and MB, but at least this was what German police told the poor lady.

sirtiger · April 2003

Specifically, are you referring to the ignition is more complex so it is difficult to hardwire? Or the stock alarm is more sophisticated than most cars?

I am particular curious because my friend's 3 day old MB E500 was stolen. If these european makes are more secure, it would make me curious as to how other makers didn't do the same since car theft is costing some of us a bundle to insure our cars (I am sure accidents/fraud is another major contributor).

jbf5 · April 2003

No word yet on a ship date from Germany for my 530i, though it's been about 3 weeks since I dropped off the car in Munich. Guess this is the downside of Euro Delivery.

But in the meantime, has anyone installed the X-Pel (Scotchcal) bumper kit on a car with the Cold Weather Package? I don't see any cutouts in the plastic for the headlight washers, and am wondering whether there should be some.

Thanks.

jay44 · April 2003

Do any of you have any strong feelings between the Jet Black verses Black Metalic color options? My current vehicle is jet black and looks great (when clean, of course) I'm contemplating a new 530 with the metalic finish and would appreciate any comments.

cmr530i · April 2003

You should take your car seats to a dealer and try them out for yourself on a 5 series. One poster on this board just picked up a 5 series and was going to use the back seat for his newborn triplets! I can't quite picture that one, but he seemed satisfied. IMO two car seats would work with each placed by a rear door. My brother has plenty of room left when placing one car seat by a rear door in his 5. He'll need to use the other space by August for baby #2. Trying your car seats out for yourself sounds like your best bet to know if you'd be satisfied. Good luck.

dzuba · April 2003

2003 530 - Manual, Sport, CWP, PP, Xenon, Power Rear Sunshade, and Premium sound - MSRP of $49,270

Dealer will lease to me at $45,410, 59% Residual, .0010 Money factor, 3 yrs 15K miles, 1st and last down and some doc fees totalling $1600.00 down = for a monthly payment of $687.00

Yes - the $45,410 is the real lease price, but I am not convinced the $687 is correct?

Any thoughts!!

jb_shin · April 2003

If I remember correctly, BMW at least uses a key that has to send a proper electronic code to the car each time it starts. The code is said to change randomly each time, making it virtually impossible to duplicate. Even if a copy is made, it has to be initialized with the ECU before it will actually work. I believe MB and Audi use the similar technology.

riez · April 2003

trip1113... I have a '98 540i6 (std. Sport Pkg) and my wife has a '00 323ia (w/Prem Pkg). We have two kids, ages 10 and 12. They fit just FINE in both cars. No problems. We've had no problems adding a 3rd kid in back. I often take my two kids and two of their friends up to the local McDonald's indoor playland. No problems.

I haven't tried to get car seats in either car. The E39 5 Series has a lap/shoulder belt with headrest in the middle center. The E46 3 Series did not have either initially, having just a rear middle lap belt, but the newer ones do have a center rear lap/shoulder belt.

I must prefer the Sport Pkg. It does NOT unduly compromise ride quality, but does improve handling. For me, SPORT PKG is an ABSOLUTE MUST!

If room is important, just take the family down to the dealer and see what all fits and how well. You should also test drive cars with and without the Sport Pkg.

Take thorough test drives!!!

dzuba · April 2003

My BMW dealer says the Multiple Security deposits on a lease are not refundable if the car is totaled - is this true?

If it is true - you guys out there putting $4500 down are taking a risk, right?

With 1st and last down - 3 yrs, 15K per year I am being quoted $687 per month on a car with a MSRP of $49,270, and a leasing/selling price of $45,410!

I have no idea if this is good or bad - but the dealer is willing to share any all info he has on the lease docs, etc..........

div2 · April 2003

My eight year old has no complaints about my 528iA. In fact, at night he prefers the 5er because the rear reading lamps allow Game Boy play and reading Harry Potter without additional lighting equipment. He does sit a bit higher due to a BMW "Carli" child seat a friend smuggled into the US for me;). That said, in daylight div Jr. prefers my 318ti Club Sport and my Jeep TJ in that order. Even if I'm taking a corner in the ti at 20+ mph over the posted advisory, he yells "Faster Dad! Faster!". Good kid.

srfast · April 2003

does not include protection for the top of the front bumper. That's why you don't see a listing for kits with or without CWP. The kit only asks if the bumper has PDC. I had the front paint and front bumper kit installed on my 2003 530i on 4/18/2003 and that's when I realized the piece didn't exist. I thought the installer had missed cutting it, but after checking the XPEL website, we realized it didn't exist. XPEL doesn't feel the top of the bumper is a high exposure area. If you really want it, the XPEL installer can custom cut it. I didn't do it, but will have it done if I see a need for it.

Hope this helps...JL

ksqrd · April 2003

trip1113: It's me who just bought an '01 CPO 530iA Sport/Premium because we needed a second car (to replace a well-loved Integra GS-R) following the birth of triplets who are now 4 months old. First, it's important to know that our other car is an Acura MDX, which is the primary baby-mobile. We love the MDX, and we bought it because we were thinking about kids down the road and couldn't see ourselves in a minivan, either.

When we bought the 530, it was for my commute, but it needed to be able to accomodate 3 car seats (to serve as a backup, and in case we both need to ferry the babies down the road). Our PegPerego carseats fit, though very snugly, in the back. The slight rise in the middle actually makes this possible, as the middle seat rides slightly over the other two. I wouldn't recommend this as the only car to transport infants or toddlers, though I imagine it will be fine once the babies are in the booster stage or beyond. We'll buy the narrowest seats for the next stage. The car is awesome in every other way, and I won't comment otherwise.

Snaigel: The saga of your car theft gets more fascinating at every turn. You did make out well, and I wish you luck with the G35. If we didn't have triplets, I would seriously have considered the coupe. One of my best friends also has an MDX, and traded an E320 for a G35 coupe, and loves it.

weberamg · April 2003

I'm considering a 540I with a six speed. I've heard that the clutch is heavy on these cars and provides the left leg with a work out. Is that true? Is it hydraulic or cable actuated?

Any help in this area would be appreciated.

Thanks

srfast · April 2003

hydraulic and are not heavy. I suggest you drive a BMW 5/6 speed to confirm. "Heavy" is relative.

Hope this helps....JL

riez · April 2003

weberamg... 1) Take a thorough test drive in one. 2) Do you mostly drive in congested city traffic or lighter interstate/rural traffic?

I've put over 20,000 miles on my 540i6. Probably 90 percent interstate or rural 2-lane county roads. I also live in a small city with only 3 stoplights. No problem with clutch.

I also spend some time in congested city traffic (e.g., Omaha and Des Moines). She isn't too bad. But she is "heavier" than in a 4-cyl Honda/Nissan/Toyota.

You really should test drive it in the type traffic and at the time of day you normally drive. Many automotive reviewers (e.g., see the old Edmunds Comparison test, C&D, etc.) commented that it took a while before you got the engagement right. Till then, some drivers were "lurchy", esp. in 1st/2nd gears.

jbf5 · April 2003

Srfast, thanks. That explains it.

Interesting that X-Pel's installation video shows a bumper-top piece being installed on an M3. I checked the website, and sure enough, that piece is optional on the M3 kit, but not available on the 530i kit.

Maybe X-Pel figures 530i drivers don't do whatever it is that M3 drivers do to damage the top of their bumpers?

rweiss2 · April 2003

Can someone advise me. Want to get a 5251 or 530 but have had all wheel Audi, Saab and Acura in past. I could opt for the 325ix all wheel but I really would like the larger sedan. How DOES this car perform in the winter in snow or in rain?? Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you

5speed5 · April 2003

rweiss2, you will probably get many differing opinions in answer to your question. The first aspect to look at it is Sport package vs. non Sport package. The sport package vehicles come with larger rims & 'summer' high performance tires. The non Sport vehicles come with smaller rims and all season tires.

My 'opinion' comes from 3 years of all season driving with a 5 series. In the rain, I never experienced a problem. The computer (DSC) always kicked in when it had to and prevented any slipping. I always had great confidence when driving in the rain with the car.

Snow driving was a different story. Having a 'Sport' setup, in winter meant switching to 16" wheels with Blizzak winter tires. For 2 years the snow level was mild, and the car handled it very well. The only problem times the RWD had was with ice, and it lost that battle.

This past winter was a totally different story. The snow levels were much higher, and the RWD with the snow tires were no match at times. I got stuck once in a parking lot after it had snowed 6.5" of wet snow during the day. It took me over 2 hours to get out with another person helping me shovel & push.

What you need to evaluate also, is where you live/drive. How often does it snow there, and how much snow does each storm average.

As far as the 325ix, I had the opportunity to spend some time with one as a loaner car. In daily driving (no snow) the car felt 'underpowered' due to the AWD setup. If I were to go the ix route, I would definitely opt for the larger engined 330ix.

sirtiger · April 2003

5speed5,

There are cupholder at the rear passenger? Where? I better look again.....

As a new 530i owner, I learned something new. The automatic headlights only work when the foglights are in the off position. I wonder what is the logic behind that....

mseals · April 2003

rweiss2:

I live in the Detroit area and we get snow over the winter months. It varies from year to year, but this past year we really got dumped on even into April. I have to say, that my car was very poised and predictable in even 6-10" of snow. I have to note that I have the non-sport package and 15" all season tires. If I had winter tires I would have been able to track through the snow with the confidence of a snowmobile, but even with all seasons I did quite well. Much better than my FWD Honda I replaced. And the Traction is great in all but completely no traction from a standstill. I just turned if off for a second to get moving an then kicked it back on.

tlmmhowell · April 2003

I would appreciate any input on replacing the OEM Contis. I can't decide between summer/winter or all seasons. I have a 540iTa, no sport. Thanks

hicaira · April 2003

"With 1st and last down - 3 yrs, 15K per year I am being quoted $687 per month on a car with a MSRP of $49,270, and a leasing/selling price of $45,410!"

Find another dealer. This one is lying to you.

MSRP $49,270.00
Negotiated Price $45,410.00
Down Payment $-
Residual % 0.59
Money Factor 0.001000
Term (mos) 36

Deduced Factors
Capitalized Cost $45,410.00
Residual value $29,069.30
Depreciation $16,340.70

Monthly totals:
Depreciation $453.91
Interest $74.48
tax $43.59

Monthly total $571.98

And that is based on CA tax of 8.25%.

If you want, I'll e-mail you a lease calculator.

HiC

dzuba · April 2003

I agree - the numbers are not making sense. Problem is some of the leasing calculators come up with different numbers as well.

If you can - send me yours! (E-mail in my profile)

They quoted me a hell of a price to buy the car - at $500.00 over invoice, and I may go that route.

Their lease quotes are 15K 3yr at $687, and 25k 3yr $807!

Lease vs. Buy - what a headache!!

hicaira · April 2003

I've sent it. I made mine from the State of CA Dept. Consumer Affairs version. All lease calcs should be within a few $$ of each other. It's basic math, really.

Curious as to what the dealer's lease worksheet looks like. I found another dealer when the first one I was working with tried to double dip the aquisition fees: He was not only collecting up front but also trying to finance them into the lease! I was only able to discover why our numbers were not matching when I demanded to see his worksheet.

BTW: load a lease calculator into a laptop and take it to the dealer with you. If you don't have one, print out your worksheets & the formulas and take a small calculator with you. That ought to cut through the confusion.

HiC

riez · April 2003

tlmmhowell... What year is your 540iTa? What Continentals do you have? I'm assuming TouringContact. But there are SportContact and SportContact2s.

What do you want out of your tires? Long life? Cushy ride? Great handling? Low noise? How important is wet (rain) vs dry performance? What tradeoffs will you accept? Some noise to get great grip?

I have a '98 540i6. I just replaced my former Yokohama AVS Decibels with SportContact 2s. I wanted a maximum performance summer (3-season) tyre. So far, in first 750 miles, I love the grip, ride, noise, and wet (rain) performance. They live up to their advertised billing. Won't know about wear and noise for a long time, though.

I recently put sets of ContiTouringContacts on my wife's '00 323ia and my work car (a Hyundai Sonata). Like them as an all-around all-season tyre.

Do some research. Continental and other tyre makers have nice web sites. European Car had three great articles last year on maximum performance tyres, high performance tyres, and winter tyres. Consumer Reports had a nice test comparison article on winter and all-season tyres late last year.

riez · April 2003

tlmmhowell... Forgot that Continental also has a more aggressive all-season tyre. Believe it is called the ContiExtremeContact. More aggressive and more expensive than the less expensive ContiTouringContact.

tlmmhowell · April 2003

My 540 is a 99. Yes, it has TouringContacts. I have read all the sources you cite and been to Tirerack.com. I am MORE confused than before. I want low noise and grip, not worried about life.I am leaning towards summer tires, with the intention of biting the bullet and buying winter wheels. Yet, most of the summer tires come in a bigger, and lower profile than my OEM wheels/tires. Is it OK to jump up 1 inch? Is it OK to go wider? Then, I start to lean towards buying summer wheels/tires and using my fact. wheels for the snows. Or, maybe I should just sell out and get all seasons. I am looking for recommendations.

weberamg · April 2003

srfast and riez--Thanks for the info on clutches. I'll certainly try before I buy.

Also, I was wondering what the "I" stands for in 540I or 530I, etc. I've been told it stands for injection as in fuel injection, but I'm not sure that's correct.

Thanks,

erickpl · April 2003

I think the i means inline, as in inline 6.

-Paul

hicaira · April 2003

The 540 is a V.

HiC

riez · April 2003

Believe it is a throwback to that forgotten era before fuel injection was the norm. Used to be meaningful and indicated which cars were fuel injected. Back when BMW used to sell both fuel injected and non-fuel injected engines. Now, when all BMW engines are fuel injected (and beyond), just seems to be something that continues. Maybe it just sounds nice? Looks nice? The marketers like it?

But unlike where 1/3/4/5/6/7/8 indicate platform, the other numbers (usually) indicate cubic liter engine displacement, "x"=AWD, "X"=SUV or SAV, "t"=touring (station wagon), "M"=Motorsports Division (and have to have non-automatic transmission), "d"=diesel, and "Z"=roadster... "i" is like your appendix: there and no one is exactly sure, what, if anything, it means or does.

Too bad BMW is still sometimes odd. When the (inaccurate) 323i was in reality a "325i", which didn't happen until the (accurate) 328i become the (accurate) 330i. Then the marketers afraid the 328i wouldn't seem "worth it" when the "325i" was so much less expensive.

srfast · April 2003

1. No rear cupholders after MY 2001 - it has been replaced by small storage bin. You can probably order cupholders from dealer and install it yourself.

2. Auto headlights are not dependent on fog lights. My auto headlights come on regardless of the fog light switch position.

Hope this helps...JL

pen101 · April 2003

Without going into detail, dealer induced me in to that dealership with $1000 over invoice price (next lowest dealer in my area was $1800 over invoice), but leasing department tried to do a number on me. But I was prepared. If I did not catch them at their game, the difference would have been about $3,000 extra profit in the dealer's pocket. The final transaction price was $42,895, lease payment of $535 per month (includes CA tax of 8.25%) for 3 years/36 months and I get back $3800 at end of lease.

pen101 · April 2003

No rear cupholders in MY 2002. Also, when headlight switch is in "auto on" position, and then turn fog light switch to "on" position, headlights turn on. Fog switch overrides auto mode.

billbrox · April 2003

Am considering purchasing ex-Warranty for New 2003 530i. Any thoughts on if it is worth the $1300 for 4 years 100k miles.

sirtiger · April 2003

I think BMW got it all backwards. The driver sliding armrest should be a storage bin like most cars and not that silly sliding armrest. The rear storage thing should be a cupholder.

I read that some countries may have it or its a added feature to modify it to be a storage armrest and a rear cupholder. I guess its another way for BMW to make more money or just drive us nuts with these lack of amenities.

My car is like pen101, the foglights overrides the auto headlights. Another BMW mystery.....

jb_shin · April 2003

It actually is quite small, but it is available as an option for those who want it. It will barely fit a mobile phone, or a small wallet. The European version of the lower dash, without the foam padding has a storage compartment on the left side of the driver, which actually seems to offer bigger space.

fjk57702 · April 2003

I think that there were some changes in the engine tuning when the "323" was upgraded to "325". The engine went from 170 HP to 184 or so.

mseals · April 2003

I am not sure but I agree, there was a change, I believe it was double vanos that increased the HP rating, or at least helped in increasing the rating.

riez · April 2003

fjk... While peak horsepower rose, peak torque fell. The '99-'00s had higher peak torque. That might make sense for way most Americans drive as well as for cars with automatic transmissions. Is interesting that there was such a trade off. Too bad HP wasn't increased without decreasing torque. And too bad they couldn't increase both!

fjk57702 · April 2003

riez... well yes and no. The history of the 2.5 liter I6 (which may not be the same engine) is:
1994-1995: 325i model: 189 HP@5900 RPMs - 181 ft-lbs@4200 RPMs
1998: 323 coupes/convertibles 168 HP@5500 - 181@3950
1999-2000: 323: 170 HP@5500 - 181@3500
2001-: 325: 184@6000 - 175@3500

I have quoted the factory numbers for horsepower/torque peaks for 2.5 liter engine since the mid - 1990's. I have pointed out in the past that the "peak" numbers are not the only speed at which horsepower or torque is produced. An engine produces both horsepower and torque at all engine speeds, not just at the peak speed. In general the peak horsepower is at a higher speed than the peak torque. This is because the horsepower depends on the torque and speed. If torque were constant at all engine speeds, then horsepower would "peak" at the red line. However, torque generally drops off quickly once the engine exceeds some speed beyond which "breathing" efficiency drops off.

We can calculate the torque at the peak horsepower and we find that the 170 hp engine had 162 ft-lbs of torque @5500 and not more than 148 ft-lbs @6000. The 184 hp engine has 161 ft-lbs @6000. So we know that the new 2.5 liter has more torque @6000 RPM's than the old engine. We don't know what the new engine is like at lower engine speeds, but I suspect that it has more torque at 2000 RPMs than the old engine.

fjk57702 · April 2003

We also know the difference in horsepower between the 170 and the 184 HP 2.5 liter engine is 4 horsepower at 3500 RPM's, the peak torque for both engines. Playing around with a spread sheet suggests that both engines will produce around 163 horsepower at 5000 RPM's. I am guessing that the 184 horsepower engine will have about 175 horsepower at 5500 RPM's, the peak for the 170 HP engine. At 4500 RPM's the new engine should be within 2 HP of the old engine.

cmr530i · April 2003

Twice during the past week my 2001 530i with manual transmission has violently shaken for a few seconds in the front end while braking into a slow stop while in neutral. The speed was less than 20mph and the braking was gradual. The front end shook side to side and then just stopped and I was able to continue on my way as if nothing happened. I have an appointment for Thursday at the dealer, but was wondering if anyone has had or has heard of this shaking before. Thanks.

sdg380 · April 2003

New to board, just a few thoughts, if I may. Have an '02 530, stick, PP, no SP, xenon, silver/gray (like that monochromatic look.)

To jay44. go with the metallic black, they're charging you for metallic paint whether you get it or not.

Re: lousy weather, I have found this 5 and my previous '91 525 to be quite respectable, but NOT up to a good front-driver, IMO. Here in the Midwest, lots of people buy AWD for those 10 days each year that it really helps, I'll take my chances with rear drive on those days for the handling balance (and lack of torque steer) for the other 355.

I've got the OEM Conti's (SC1's? SC2's? will have to check), good for all weather, a plus since no need to swap around. I'll put in my plug for BMW's WITHOUT the sport package, aside from dollars saved (of which you'll probably see $.10 at trade time; I bought, didn't lease), I think stock suspension is plenty responsive. Perhaps more importantly, I think that those nice-looking 17" sport wheels just don't offer enough sidewall height to give adequate ride cushioning. Just my O. (Oh, and I've got the >heated< steering wheel, not available with spt.pack.)

BURNING SECURITY QUESTION: did not see answer to this, but just how does that little wallet key work if the system is constantly changing codes?! Does somebody merely need copy of this key (seems like a glaring hole in security, heh?)

jb_shin · April 2003

I am no expert, but it seems to be similar to how those garage door openers work, with the rolling codes. In order for the new clicker to work with the base, they have to be initialized. A mere physical copy of the key will not work until then.

riez · April 2003

sdg380... If you do not have the Sport Pkg and you have Continentals, they are likely ContiTouringContacts. These are the tyres used on my wife's '00 323ia. I put a new set of TouringContact on her car last year. An inexpensive ($60-70) all season tyre that has decent handling capabilities. For example, see CR's 12/02 test report.

But you likely don't have the summer (3 season) ContiSportContact or ContiSportContact 2. These are most definately NOT all-season tyres. Continental has a dedicated winter tyre. The SC2s only came out in USA last year. They are the replacement for the original SportContacts. SportContact & SC2 are Continental's maximum performance tyre. Continental also makes an ExtremeContact that is their highest performing all-season tyre. (Anyone here running a set of ExtremeContact?)

I recently put a set of SC2s on my '98 540i6. So far I'm quite pleased. Great handling. Awesome wet performance.

mukman · April 2003

Hello everyone. I have been a reader of this board for almost 2 years. I finally bit the bullet and picked up the car I've been wanting. The car is a 530i with PP, SP, CW, XEON, and STEP. I love the way the car rides and handles. I can't wait for the beak in period to be over so I can see what this car can really do. As of now, the only thing I'm thinking of adding is tinting the windows. Look forward to adding more about my experience with the car.

dabimmer · April 2003

Welcome aboard. Keep us informed of your
5ers progress, you'll enjoy this car , it is a
great car ! Is it an '03, if it is, what was your
motive in buying the E39 instead of the E60?
Again, welcome to the Ultimate driving experience.

mukman · April 2003

Thank you. Yes it is a '03. One reason for the wait was to see what the new 5er would look like. I was not immediately pleased, and I also did not want to buy a new model its first year. This would mean an even longer wait. The current model also has a good history of performance and reliability.
Also, with relatively low interest rates, now seemed a good time to buy the car.

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