BMW 5-Series Sedans

karmikan · August 2003

Part of an article from an English newspaper:

EVEN George Orwell would have choked. Government officials are drawing up plans to fit all cars in Britain with a personalised microchip so that rule-breaking motorists can be prosecuted by computer.
Dubbed the “Spy in the Dashboard” and “the Informer” the chip will automatically report a wide range of offences including speeding, road tax evasion and illegal parking. The first you will know about it is when a summons or a fine lands on your doormat.
The plan, which is being devised by the government, police and other enforcement agencies, would see all private cars monitored by roadside sensors wherever they travelled. Police working on the “car-tagging” scheme say it would also help to slash car theft and even drug smuggling.
It also notes that cars driven by terrorist suspects or drug smugglers could be monitored even in Europe if, as officials in Brussels envisage, EVI is introduced across the European Union.
The DfT has hired management consultants to co-ordinate the development of the system, which it is thought could become operational by 2007.
The government is likely to face opposition from motoring groups. “We need to have an open discussion about what this technology is being used for, who is being tracked and for what purpose, and what could be the hidden agenda,” said Bert Morris, deputy director of the AA Motoring Trust.
Liberty, the civil rights organisation, said: “This could turn every driver into a potential suspect.” It warned that motorists’ details held on a central computer could form the basis of a “stalkers’ charter” if accessed by hackers.

Let's hope that none of the do-gooder "nannies" in N. America like this idea and hook onto it.

kyfdx · August 2003

Don't get the navi... it works both ways...

hoopsref · August 2003

Even though you are not looking at a new '03 530, you might want to read the posts I & others have written about the incentives. This may help you when negotiating on a used one. You tell the dealers that a new is only "$x,xxx" more, surely you can much better than that.
Check posts: 299, 302, 307, 359 in prices paid as a start. New 2003 530's @ $39K with full waranty... Good luck. How are the Sixers going to do without Brown this year?

ponytrekker · August 2003

is reading between the lines. Yeah, it'll show you the "total" or the "rollback" but unscrupulous sellers probably try to get around this.

One thing I have seen is cars registered many times in different states between private owners. That's a sign the car's a dud. Also, if a car is registered with 47525 and the next time it is registered with 47526, you should be suspicious.

jakumaba · August 2003

Thanks for your remarks. Sorry you got the short end of it. I'll be on the look-out for any such irregularities when my car gets to the dealership. And reporting them here. I might be able to understand not filling the tank. But the rest seems like common courtesy and good relations, and your expectations seem reasonable. Did you make any complaints to anyone other than Sterling sales? How about BMWNA? Write a letter to the dealership owners?

vsaxena · August 2003

I am thinking of splurging on a 5 series. I am considering a low milage (< 20K) 2000 528; the other option is to go and get a brand new 525.
The 528 is a private party deal and would cost about $9K less than the new 525.

In terms of performance and handling do the extra 300 cc on the 528 engine make a difference vs the 525? What about other features which may have changed between 2000 and 2003. To me fun to drive and safety are the top concerns. According to Edmunds the used 528 is going to be about 10% cheaper to own than the new 525. What will clinch the deal is if the comparable 528 has a better driver (the 528 has sports + prem + cwp). I plan to get a 525 with (sports + prem + rear air bags).

hoopsref · August 2003

Read the posts on prices paid section for new 525 pricing. Keep in mind the new 525's have a factory to dealer incentive of $3500 until the end of the month. So you can get a new one for about $2,500 BELOW invoice!!! Where is the pricing on the used one? How much is the new warranty worth? You will get a lower finance rate on the new one, also. We have beat this topic (incentives...) to death the last two months, so take some time to catch up. You won't regret it.

sixers76 · August 2003

Thanks for your feedback. I think signing Coleman was a step in the right direction. Now all we can do is hope that he still has that same fire he had during the playoffs last year. I think Ayers will do fine, whether or not he can control Iverson is still unknown. Most likely will be a rebuilding year.

sixers76 · August 2003

I'm currently in the market for a 2000 528i. After some negotiating I received an offer from the dealer for a 2000 528i with 39K miles with additional options which include: leather, moonroof and heated front seats for $28,900. Does this seem reasonable? Please help... I personally think it's still a bit too high.

vsaxena · August 2003

The numbers I presented include all incentives. I am looking at a 2003 525 with Premium + Sport at $38-39K. The 2000 528 is immaculate, has some more options thrown in and I could probably get between $27-$29K with 18.6K miles.

A 5 yr/100000 mile (which translates to a 5 yr/80000) bumper to bumper (after market) warranty can be had for $2500ish for the 2000 528. Financing is probably not a significant issue in my case.

For me the driving experience and the safety equipment is the primary decision criteria for 2000 528 vs. the 2003 525. Are the extra 300cc worth getting a used car? How about the other driving experience/safety related stuff? Any obvious styling issues which make one better than the other?

hoopsref · August 2003

HEre is what I come up with for the price of the car with the options you listed above: Invoice (with MACO) $39,250. Now you must DEDUCT the incentive of $3500 which brings you to $35,750. THis is your starting point. $36,750 is a doable number. See my prior posts 299, 302, 307, 359 in the prices paid section for more details. Good luck.

kyfdx · August 2003

I was offered a 2000 528i with 40K miles from a private party for $25K.. that was in March. Equipped the same as the one you are looking at. This was a car that was put in service in March of 2000. Depending on the in-service date, you could be out of warranty in as little as a couple months. The asking price on that car seems awfully high. I think you'll find that the market has really dropped on used 5 series in the last couple of months, mostly due to the incentives on the new ones.
All that said, I think you would definitely see a power difference between the two cars. If you go for the 2000 model, I'd shoot for $23-25K, unless buying certified, then maybe a couple K more.....

regards,
kyfdx

vsaxena · August 2003

I think I forgot to mention the auto tranny (I kind of took it for granted). $44,155 MSRP, $40,450 INVOICE - 3500 + profit... (38-39K).

The 2000 528 has less than 20K miles and a bunch of extra goodies (sports spoiler which may have been a part of the sports package, CD changer etc.). Also I may not be able to get the exact goodies for the new 525 so may have to pay extra for stuff I do notwant.
The key still remains the driving experience..

mseals · August 2003

I am not an expert on the subject because I won't be in the car buying mode until next year, but I have been dabling with prices on 5ers this year to see where they are at. I plan on upgrading my CPO 98 528 to a 01 530 in a year or so. That being said, I think that the price you got, $28k, is a bit high for a 528. Yeah the mileage is low, and it has a lot of goodies, but I got my 98 528 for $16,500 back in October of last year and I couldn't be happier. I got a 5 sp, which was hard to find for me, and leather, pp, moonroof (it wasn't included back then), CWP with heated steering wheel. Sticker for the car was $46,700. I have the stock 15" wheels which are driving me crazy, but I plan on changing them after this winter. I am not too sure about the power difference between the 528 and 525 when going with an automatic. The raw numbers point to the 528, but from what I heard, the torque comes on sooner in the 525, I might be wrong. Maybe some engine experts on the board here can shed some light.

riez · August 2003

Notice that the 5 Series is blowing out the door right now. Outselling last year. Notice the huge increase in July sales!

7 Series doing OK but not improving on sales from last year.

Units Sold in USA, ranked by July 2003 Sales Volume:

Make Model July 2003 July 2002 2003 YTD 2002 YTD

BMW 3 Series 5,984 5,282 42,268 39,535
BMW 5 Series 5,022 3,195 26,192 23,664
BMW 7 Series 1,595 2,094 11,530 12,837
BMW M5 122 146 1,180 1,102

vsaxena · August 2003

What do you think would be a good price for a 2000 528 which has an Edmunds private party value of $30K? I think this price does not reflect the current incentives for the new cars.

fielding_yost · August 2003

FWIW, I spent 3 months scouring all of southern Michigan for 2000 528's. This was from April through June of this year, and at one point I was getting quotes from 6 different dealerships. Not that I'm an expert by any means, but I consider myself a pretty decent negotiator for used cars (fully researching blue and black book and edmunds prices, bargaining one dealership against the other, etc). At the end of the day, these were the best deals that I was offered:

(1) 2000 528, non-CPO, 32K mi, PP, SP, CWP for $28,900 (originally asking $31,900);

(2) 2000 528, CPO, 48K mi, PP, CWP for $27,500 (originally asking $28,900);

(3) 2000 528, CPO, 40K mi, PP, SP, CWP for $29,000 (originally asking $29,900).

I thought these offers were mediocre. My last used car was negotiated down from $25,000 to $19,000, but it wasn't a bimmer. It was really hard to get any price movement, because there were very few used 5ers available when I was shopping. I had little leverage because of that short supply (I still don't understand why so few 5ers were for sale). Anyway, all of the dealerships seemed to hit a same basement price of around $28K or $29K, depending on the options.

I ended up ditching the CPO market and opting for an '03 525 for just a few grand more than the 2000 CPO's. I would think that by now, with the incentives on the '03 5er being so well publicized, the CPO market must be softer. However, I still look at used 5 series prices for old times sake, and the dealerships are still hanging onto those same asking prices. Maddening. Why buy CPO, when a few grand more gets you a new one? I know the 528 is a slightly stronger engine than my 525, but IMO both the 528 and 525 suck in comparison to the 530, so who cares.

Good luck. Just my two cents.......

kennynmd · August 2003

I went to VOB BMW again and got the same crappy service again! I went there and walked around the showroom and the lot for about a half an hour and no one came over to talk to me. This is the second time this has happened to me. I left and ended up going to Tischer BMW in Silver Spring. I got great service , got the car I wanted, and the price I wanted. All took and hour or so. Great buying experience. The salesman was great as well. If anyone is interested in going there, e-mail me. Antways I ended up getting a 325Ci. MSRP was $37,095. I ended up getting it for 34k out the door. taxes tags and all.Thanks everyone for all the help. aventhough this is the 5-series forum and I ebded up getting a 3-series. Thanks again.!

hoopsref · August 2003

Interesting info. Do you have a breakdown by model (i.e. 525, 530 & 540's)? Obviously the incentives are the big reason as well the "new" design not being universally accepted. Speaking of which, I read an article in Automobile & / or C & D about the design... with the pres. of BMW (or some other "grand pooba" of marketing...). He said the design is here to stay (it may stay right in their showrooms & factories), it is revolutionary (it may cause a revolution) and Bangle is doing a good job, blah, blah blah and he is not going anywhere (cuz if he leaves the building in daylight, he may get stoned)Stoned! That's it. He must have got a hold of really good stuff. It reminds of the story of the Emperor's new clothes. If they keep telling us it's cool and futuristic... then maybe we will believe it. Since I have not seen it in person, I guess I should wait to pass judgement. I guess if the driving experience is great, we'll forget about the looks.....nah! Not us crazy Americans. Style, baby, style.

riez · August 2003

hoopsref... That data is for sedans only. No breakdown by individual model. Historically for E39 sedans, 540i has only been about 15%. 530i about 50%. 525i about 35%. For 3 Series, the 325i handily outsells the 330i.

kyfdx · August 2003

My $.02: About $25K.. Maybe $26K, if its the exact one you want, and they've treated it like an offspring.

regards,
kyfdx

hoopsref · August 2003

Are you looking at any new ones with the incentives? I see you have a 540i6. Is the 530 too underpowered you now that you are spoiled?

habitat1 · August 2003

I strongly suggest that anyone considering a 5-series extensively test drive the line-up themselves rather than rely on others' opinions regarding the power. I myself think the 530i is very adequate in power. I traded up to an M5 in 2002 from a 540i 6-speed based upon a deal I couldn't possibly refuse and the handling and other amenities of the M5 that I wanted. If I were graphing the 5-series line-up from the 525i automatic to the M5 strictly based upon "power", here's how I would subjectively place the various models:

525 automatic = Starting point of 0
525 5-speed = 0.20
530 automatic = 0.35
530 5-speed = 0.50
540 automatic = 0.60
540 6-speed = 0.70
M5 = 1.0

Back when I bought the 540i 6-speed, the 528i was a non-starter (about a 0.3 w/ 5-speed). But today, I'd have to say that the 530i is the best power bang for the buck in the BMW line-up. Had the current line-up been my choice back in 2000, I would have either gone "prudent" for the 530i 5-speed or all the way for the M5. And if I had gone for the 530i, I would have been very pleased, especially with the sports package handling. I consider both the 530i 5-speed sport and 540i 6-speed to be comparable in handling.

Everybody has a different opinion of what their power / value graph looks like. Nothing helps as much as test driving the entire spectrum.

riez · August 2003

What can I say. Practical and efficient. Fun and exciting. Stylish and admired. Room for 4. Decent trunk. Gets me 26 mpg cruising at 74 mph. Top speed of 155 mph. 0-60 mph in mid-5 second range (though I've never even tried to come close to this). I'm already dreaming about a CPO '03 540i6 that I'd buy in '05. Or maybe an M5???

sergeym · August 2003

540ia is much faster that 530 5-speed. 540i6 is only marginally faster that 540ia. 5.5sec vs. 5.7sec vs. 6.8 sec for 0-60mph and 14.1 vs. 14.3 vs. 14.9 for 1/4 mile run (540i6/540ia/530i5). And as you can see from the previous post most 540i6 owners either cannot or do not want to explore their car's limits. New clutch every 5K miles anyone?. 540ia on the other hand can run 5.7/14.3 all day until its driver gets sick. Note that 540ia Sport has a shorter final drive that helps it keep up with 540i6. No question that M5 is much, much faster that any of these. BMW numbers for 0-60mph are 6.7/6.1/6.0/4.8 for 530/540ia/540i6/M5 respectively.

hoopsref · August 2003

Does anyone know if there is a site that has the reliability by models, with manual and auto tranny...? It would be interesting to see if the higher performance ones had any more trouble...
I guess the manual tranny's would have more problems than auto, but that is purely a guess.

seaf · August 2003

I see them on some BMWs in the front headlight, there are faint 'rings' around the actual projector, are they daytime running lights or parking lights? Seems kind of dim for DRLs, what bulbs do they use? 5W 20W? Thanks.

habitat1 · August 2003

I have to agree with epn2 (and BMW's own numbers) that the distance between the 530i and 540i is relatively small compared to the distance between the 540i and M5.

Sergey: You correctly quote BMW's figures, then claim the 530i is slower than the official figure and the 540i is considerably quicker. That doesn't conform to my test drives using my Maxima (0-60 in 6.7) and S2000 (5.5) as benchmarks. If anything, BMW might have been a tad conservative on the 530i. I was pleasantly surprised that it didn't feel much, if any, slower than the 330ci.

chrism124 · August 2003

I just purchased a 03 530i with the Sports pkg. While it is fun to drive, I wish that it had a little more power. Therefore I have made the decision to install some small modifications from DINAN. The modifications will consist of a CAI, exhaust, throttle-body and the upgraded engine software. The resulting changes should produce acceleration times closer to a 540ia at a very reasonable price level (compared to buying a 540ia). This is not a knock on the 540ia as I admire the capability of such a car. Rather the extra $$$ potentially spent on acquiring a 540ia is better served by investing it.

Regards,
Chris

riez · August 2003

hoopsref... You should read Roundel (BMWCCA) and Bimmer magazines. Both have repeatedly pointed out the long-term reliability problems with the automatic transmissions. High catastrophic failure rates in the 80,000-120,000 mile range. Doesn't seem like there is much preventive maintenance can do to prevent. If yours is destined to fail, it does. Good maintenance and good driving (i.e., not abusing it) can help.

540i6's Getrag consistently praised for its long-term reliability. Change the fluids regularly and don't abuse the clutch, and it should last a long, long time!

Big issue for me with the new 545i6 is that it uses a ZF manual. Much prefer Getrag. Getrags also used in current M3 and M5.

riez · August 2003

SergeyM... You wrote, "And as you can see from the previous post most 540i6 owners either cannot or do not want to explore their car's limits."

I'm no street racer. I don't ever see a point in smokey tire burnouts and high RPM drop clutch launches. Ruin tires and destroy transmissions & clutches.

But I do sometimes drive her over 130 mph. And I often accelerate quickly from say 55 to 85 mph or 65 to 90 mph or 75 to 110 mph. 6th to 3rd or 4th gear shifts.

Top speed and midrange acceleration times much more useable to me in the real world. This is where the 540i6 shines!

riez · August 2003

540i6:

Motor Trend, 5/99: 5.6 seconds
Car & Driver, 4/98: 5.4 seconds (40k miles)
............. 5.5 seconds (new)
Car & Driver, 8/98: 5.5 seconds
Motor Trend, 3/98: 5.5 seconds
Car & Driver, 3/97: 5.4 seconds
Motor Trend, 2/97: 5.6 seconds

540ia:

Car & Driver, 9/01: 5.7 seconds (Sport)
Road & Track, 12/99: 6.6 seconds (Sport), tested at high altitude
Car & Driver, 11/99: 6.1 seconds (non-Sport)
Road & Track, 5/98: 5.9 seconds (Sport)
Road & Track, 2/98: 5.9 seconds (non-Sport)
Motor Trend, 2/97: 6.2 seconds (non-Sport)
Car & Driver, 12/96: 6.3 seconds (non-Sport)
Road & Track, 9/96: 6.7 seconds (non-Sport)

M5:

Motor Trend, 3/01: 4.75
Automobile, 12/02: 4.8 seconds
Car & Driver, 3/00: 4.8 seconds
Motor Trend, 3/00: 4.7 seconds
Motor Trend, 2000: 4.7 seconds

srfast · August 2003

not racing. 0-60 & top speed numbers are for marketing. Buy a car that fits your life style, personal needs/desires and hopefully your budget. The most annoying and dangerous drivers are those that try to drive their highly capable vehicles at the limit. It's not what you drive, its how you drive what you have that separates the skilled drivers from the wannabes.

Just my $.02....JL

sergeym · August 2003

I do agree that the distance between 540 and M5 is much bigger that 530 and 540. I do NOT agree that the distance between 530i5 and 540ia is the same as the distance between 540ia and 540i6. BMW numbers always were conservative. But it is them who gave 530i5 6.8sec for 0-60mph acceleration. In any case I do believe latest BMW 6-cyl engines are somewhat underpowered compared to the best from Honda and Nissan.

jb_shin · August 2003

I agree, it is academic at best in the states, and it just is not safe to explore the top speed in US. Having said that, despite decreasing percentage of unlimited sections on German autobahn, it is still possible to cruise safely above 120 mph, mostly in the northern part of the country. At times, I sure do wish that the car did not have the darn speed governor, but I will be joining the poor souls in DC area traffic so no sense in messing with the ECU.

hoopsref · August 2003

Thanks for the input. I am waiting for my first issue of the Roundel to show up. Discouraging to here about the automatic's life span. Do you know if the Steptronic is more or less prone to problems than other automatics? It seems like a lot companies are putting in simular types of trannys. Should we not shift it in sport mode, for example, to reduce wear & tear...? I'd like to hear from those with knowledge on the subject, as I am not mechanically inclined.

erickpl · August 2003

Those are called angel eyes and seem to be essentially a trademark on the 5 Series. I don't know what type of bulbs they use though.

I believe they are available if you have halogen or xenon bulbs as the low beams.

-Paul

habitat1 · August 2003

As a Nissan owner I never thought I'd have to argue with a BMW owner that BMW's 6 cylinder is not "underpowered".

Perhaps you are looking at horsepower ratings. But I believe that the 225hp 330ci is every bit as quick as the (supposedly) 280hp G35 coupe.

Nissan and Acura seem to have bolstered their horsepower ratings over the past several years compared to the more modest increases in the BMW lineup. But I can immeditely tell the difference from a 190hp 528i to a 225 hp 530i. It is a bigger jump in real power and performance, in my opinion, than Nissan made taking my 1995 190hp Maxima 5-speed up to a 255 hp 6-speed.

BMW does not need to apologize to anyone for the performance of their 6-cylinders. The Japanese have gone to using Shetland ponies as their horsepower standard, BMW appears to use Clydesdales.

chrism124 · August 2003

I agree with habitat1, while looking at pure numbers the Japanese models have more powerful engines. But something doesnt add up. Before buying my 03 530i, I test drove a G35 sedan. I believe the engine is rated at 265 bhp. To be honest the acceleration appeared to about the same as a 530i with a meager 225 bhp. Yes, gearing could have something to do with it but there should still be noticeable difference with an advantage to the G35. I wish that BMW had more power in their inline-6 engines. But the power that is there is put to good use.

Habitat1, I am also an owner of a Nissan Maxima SE (95). Great car. I have 100k miles on the odometer and plan to keep it for a while longer.

Regards,
Chris

mseals · August 2003

I have to agree with habitat1, I had a 160 HP 2000 Civic Si and I can tell you, there seems to be way more than a 30 hp difference from that and my 528i. Both are 5 spds but the main difference is that torque kicks in very early with the I6, both are very smooth, but at higher rpm's, when the I4 starts making torque and horsepower, the I4 gets very loud while the I6 is so smooth and quiet that I have to glance down at the tach to make sure I am in the right gear for gas mileage purposes. BMW's seem to be conservative with their HP and Tq ratings. Is there some penalty that the auto makes per in Germany if they have over a certain HP rating? I know in Japan, they have a limit on how much HP a car can make, so the automakers underestimate what the cars are putting out. A good example of this is the WRX STi that is in japan or the Mitsubishi EvoIV, both produce over 300 HP but they are rates in the 280 range.

Mark

microrepair · August 2003

Based upon the torque ratings though, the Nissan should easily beat the BMW off the line... 255 ft# vs. 214 ft#... If they are the same weight, the Maxima would win if they have comparable transmissions and drive ratios.

jb_shin · August 2003

I seem to remember that it is not so much that there is anything from liming the hp, but it is sort of a gentlemen's agreement between the manufacturers. Much like the 155 mph speed limit in Germany.

sergeym · August 2003

I believe that BMW engines performed between that Nissans/Acuras mostly due to a rear-drive configuration. I remember some car magazines using "German horses are bigger" cliché. Now more and more manufacturers switch to read-drive and BMW advantage is going to disappear. For G35 vs. 330ci CARSTATS.COM shows 5.5/14.2 vs. 6.1/14.7. 330 may feel as quick as G35 but numbers say opposite. BTW I am also a former Nissan owner (98 Maxima SE) and I at that time I did consider 528s to be a slower cars. Not only because they were/are under-powered but mostly because they are usually driven slow drivers (would get 540 otherwise). I drove 530ia and 330ia several and was not impressed at all. Very smooth power-train but no real punch.

erickpl · August 2003

I know exactly what you mean about the HP difference between BMW and a Civic. I have a 99 Si (just sold it) with the 160. If I run my Civic at 90 mph, the engine is running like a sewing machine on steroids and everything is REALLY busy. Even my 325 with it's lower HP rating of (I think) 174, just feels much more composed, smooth, and relaxed.

As long as my car can cruise at highway speeds and handle a quick acceleration to pass going 70+ mph, I'm happy. My Civic Si, while a fun car, never just had that get up and go when it was already at highway speeds. My BMW doesn't have that problem.

I enjoy both cars, but for different reasons. If I were into the HP game, I'd be looking for a Viper or a McLaren.

-Paul

kdshapiro · August 2003

Since there are many models of 3 series, 325, 330 and 330ZHP, lets use the 3 series with the Performance Package(ZHP) for reference. You can get the PP for about the same price as a 330i.

As reported in Car and Driver:
0 to 60 5.6 and 1/4 mile in 14.3.

Almost the same considering the huge disparity in HP and TQ. Additionally the ZHP has a revised suspension that the mags seem to go gaga over.

ponytrekker · August 2003

are pure BS and theoretical. There's no way an Acura TL, non type S has the same HP -- or is even in the same league -- as a 330. And this is even accounting for the higher RPMS said HP is measured at on the TL.

vsaxena · August 2003

Purchased a Titanium Silver Metallic with Gray Seats with Performance Package, Sports Package, Steptronic and Fold Down Rear Seats for $37855 + $45 doc fee + taxes at Allison BMW, in Mountain View, CA. MSRP was $44,425.

The owner of the 00 528 I was trying to work out a deal did not accept my offer of $27000.

kyfdx · August 2003

I think the new one is a much better deal on all fronts, compared to even your offering price on the used car. 4 years of maintenance and warranty may well make it an even deal in the long run.

regards,
kyfdx

kennynmd · August 2003

vsaxena on you r new car. Hope you love everybit of it.Also, great job on the price. Nothing beats getting a new car!

vsaxena · August 2003

Thank you for your words of encouragement. I have written a more detailed description of my buying process in the Smart Shopper Prices Paid for BMW 5 series board. I hope to enjoy this car for quite some time to come.

BMW 5-Series Sedans

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