BMW 5-Series Sedans

kdshapiro · December 2004

Amplification to above statement. The second sentence in the last paragraph should read: ....believe these cars are tested by professional drivers during the development cycle.....

hpowders · December 2004

Well said. Amen.

rich545 · December 2004

Designman-Not to worry, I am very happy with my car. As far as AS handling hairpin turns, I don't know where you drive your cars, but even if AS did make them more difficult (which I don't agree that it does) how many do you really encounter day-to-day??? I mean, it makes me think of people that HAVE to have the biggest, baddest SUV just so they can drive to the supermarket. I think it's more the concept of AS that some people don't like rather than the reality of it detracting from "sport" driving. I can't remember the last hairpin curve I had to take on here in the 'burbs of Chicago. Sweaping turns off of exit ramps yes, hairpins not that I can think of. It's not like we're driving these cars in Indy car races are we? You're right that BMW is losing some customers (like yourself) because of things like AS and iDrive, and that, IMO, is why they made AS optional in 2005. I do believe though that for every past client they may have lost with the new designs, they've added a new one that wouldn't have bought a BWM before because they found them to be too conservative, but I guess that's another argument that we've had ad nauseum here!

kdshapiro · December 2004

Well said. Amen!

designman · December 2004

You still have to get AS in 2005 if you want the sport package. So non-sport buyers have the option, the others have to compromise, not a good thing considering there are many ways for a buyer to option a BMW.

Will active steering be an option with the sport package on the new 3-series? If it isnt there will many torqued-off 3-series buyers. If it is there will be many torqued-off 5-series buyers.

This has nothing to do with buying the biggest baddest car or where we drive. Everyone has to make turns at low speeds. Let me put it to you this way at low speeds I find AS to be like a Windows PC mouse set to its fastest speedits extreme.

Kdshapiro do you work for BMW?

hpowders · December 2004

You can hypothesize all you want. Just check the sales numbers going forward for the 5 series. I do believe they will speak volumes.

kdshapiro · December 2004

"Kdshapiro do you work for BMW?"

Why do you ask?

designman · December 2004

Wry smile? Good answer ;-)

scoutlab1 · December 2004

I have a 2002 530i w/5sp and SP. My lease ends next month. I was advised by the dealer that (a)the new 255HP engine goes into production in March to coincide with the introduction of the AWD option, (b)the nav system in the 2005 530 is much improved over the nav in the 2002, and (c) the 2005 has Bluetooth capability. Can anyone confirm some or all? Thanks in advance.

matt5 · December 2004

I'm been in the market for a new sport-luxury sedan. To sum it up, it's quite difficult to decide. Money is not the main issue for me, its the performance/value ratio that counts.

At first, the new 5 seemed hideous, but now kind of grows on me. Not sure though if its an enduring design...no one knows yet, of course. NO QUESTION, the handling is unmatched in this category after my test drives. Unbelieveable stability in sharp turns.

My thoughts thus far after several drives:

1) the 545 doesn't seem (significantly) more powerful than the 530. Just can't get over the relatively anemic hp ratings for the 530, though. But yes, the 530 still seemed EVEN STRONGER than the 05 RL which I've also driven, rated at 300hp.

2) Sport package seems like a two-edged sword. Clearly, IMO it "enhances" the driving experience, after the initial adjustment period. Yes, a little weird at first, but the hand-eyes adjust and ultimately translates to better responsiveness. BUT, when you go back to a "regular" car, the feeling and result is kind of dangerous. I found myself almost on the curbs...yes, you quickly re-adjust, but makes you think.

3) Still kind of apprehensive about quality/reliability, compared to acura or lexus, for example.

Totally unbiased here, just some observations and looking for some comments/responses.

cassidym · December 2004

matt5, I could have written your post a year ago. I had a 1986 325 that was rapidly fading away. Since I'd had it for 18 years, I felt justified in spending a lot for its replacement. I test drove everything (Acura RL, MB Coupes, Infinity Sedans) but I kept coming back to the BMW. I test drove the 04 5ers a lot and finally concluded that Active Steering was for me (really glad I did because I've come to appreciate it a lot).

As for power in the 545 (which is what I ultimately bought), I finally test drove enough 530s and 545s to convince myself I really wanted the extra power and that it was more powerful than I first thought.

The 5er is so smooth and the 545 accelerates so quietly that it was easy to underestimate how powerful it was. My wife finally convinced me. We had a 530 out for a long test drive and after about 30 minutes, I asked her what she thought. "Absolutely great car", she answered, "but it's not fast enough". Man, that's like having your wife tell you you don't drink enough beer!

I picked up my 05 545 six-speed (NAV, HUD, CWP, SP, Sat Radio) in October in Munich (think European Delivery to save five grand or so and have a ball) and my frau now says it's the most perfect car she's ever ridden in...and she is not easy to please.

Active steering: I banged a few curbs when I first started using it but it quickly becomes intuitive and I like it. Analyze your driving. If, like me, you park in a condo garage at home and a covered garage at work and live in a built up area in which you have to parallel park often than AS is a good bet. If you don't, then maybe it's not for you.

Quality/reliability: Maybe it's not up to Lexus or Acura standards but it's pretty damn good. Lexus may be perfect but, IMHO, they're also perfectly boring. Driving the 5er is exciting; not so the Lexus. I've got 3000 on mine already and can't find a thing wrong with it.

I was a little put off by the new 5er's looks but no more. I get lots of compliments. I'm getting used to total strangers coming up to me to ask about my ride.

Bottom line: I agonized over this decision for a long time (an eternity' to hear my wife hoot about it) but believe I made the absolute right choice. If I had it to do over again, the only thing I would have done differently is drink more beer in Munich.

rrusso1 · December 2004

The 2005 530 has bluetooth technology and works very well providing you use a phone designated as compatible by BMW. This is my first experience with the NAV system so I can't compare it to 2002 but I find it is easy to use and gets you where you want to go. I am told it is not as sophisticated as the new RL but I enjoy it very much.

erickpl · December 2004

We were behind a new 5 last night and my wife asked me, "Did they change the design at all on the new 5 since last year?" I defer to you guys - were any cosmetic changes made for the 2005 year? Nothing major, just a slight difference maybe? I think she's beginning to like it.

-Paul

rich545 · December 2004

I believe they will too given how many new 5ers I see where I live (burbs of Chicago).Plus I have looked at the figures and they show more E60's sold this year than E39's last year. Again, the only people I see having a problem with the new 5 is people that own the old one.

rich545 · December 2004

No changes to the design that I know of. Just some changes with the options.

rich545 · December 2004

Key line there, "...I find AS to be like a Windows PC mouse set to its fastest speedits extreme." The key word being "I". You drove the car for what, maybe a half hour if you test drove it? I've been driving it since July and others that own them on this forum don't have a problem with it. I think most E60 owners would agree that once you get used to AS you don't even notice it until you get into a car without it. Then you actually appreciate it because you realize how much more responsive it is at low speeds, and how much it tightens up at higher speeds. Again, I haven't taken too many hairpin turns where I go from 70 mph to 20 mph in a second around here so I still disagree that you're ever really faced with the issues you mention.

ksccts · December 2004

Plus I have looked at the figures and they show more E60's sold this year than E39's last year. Again, the only people I see having a problem with the new 5 is people that own the old one.

Actually, the last figures I saw for the 5-series revealed a drop in the US of about 2,300 cars sold. 2003 figure through november was 42,739 and figure for 2004 is 40,468. New style not as well liked as some would like to think.

Disclaimer: I own a 2001 530i.

hpowders · December 2004

These stats. bear out what I said in my previous post. Have only seen 2 or 3 new 5's in the last 3 months or so in the Tampa area. Seems like most people here are totally truck-happy. Lots of luxury SUV's-so many Lexus trucks. Hard to squeeze my 330i inbetween 'em.

rich545 · December 2004

I mentioned this a million times already, but you can't look at overall 5 sales because the M5 and station wagon were not available this year, but were in 2003. If you compare sales for the 545 (04) vs. 540 (03), 530 (04) vs. 530 (03), and the 525 (04) vs. 525 (03) you will see that they've actually sold more of the new model YTD. AND the sales for the E60 are getting steadily stronger.

ksccts · December 2004

You're right. I just quickly glanced at the latest figures. Unbelievably, people are actually buying that ugly E60. Then again people also buy Escalades. One will never go broke underestimating the taste of the American people; or something like that!

Disclaimer: 2001 530i owner

kyfdx · December 2004

The E60 will become more popular.. You can still get a late model, super low-mile E39 right now... but, in another year, that will be harder to find..

Some of you dislike the looks of the E60 so much, you'd never buy it.. but, I would say the number of people in that subset is pretty small..

It still is the only BMW mid-size sedan, and by all accounts is a great drive.. That will sell a lot of cars, right there... I predict they will be just as popular as the E39, eventually...

regards,

kyfdx

ksccts · December 2004

Probably all true but that doesn't change the way it looks. But who knows maybe it will grow on me. Like a fungus.

kyfdx · December 2004

Hey... that's my line!! ;-)

ksccts · December 2004

Sorry, I plead guilty.

kyfdx · December 2004

I'm sure I "borrowed" it from someone else.. you can use it..

hpowders · December 2004

Should be a boon for the tow truck operators.

hpowders · December 2004

I would love to buy a new E60. The only thing standing in my way is the idrive/reliability issue. They are positively correlated.

rich545 · December 2004

I still don't think the AWD option is true by the way. My dealership and BMW both said that there are no immediate plans to have an AWD E60. As far as NAV goes, the improvement for 2005 is that you can get both NAV and SAT radio together. In 2004 you could only have one or the other. I don't think they changed NAV functionality though.

rich545 · December 2004

Whether it's ulgy or not is completely subjective. You think it is, but everyone that has seen mine thinks it's really attractive. Seriously, you'd be amazed at how many people walk up to me and offer their completely unsolicited praise of how the car looks. So different strokes for different folks. No one is an expert on what is good looking or not.

ksccts · December 2004

Like I said; never underestimate the....

ksccts · December 2004

It is subjective, I know. Enjoy your car.

cdnpinhead · December 2004

I believe it was H. L. Mencken who said: "No one ever went broke underestimating the taste of the American public."

I've been using this quote since I got out of high school, not quite 40 years ago.

It was true in his day, it was true in mine (or at least in my salad days), and it's true now.

ksccts · December 2004

Thanks for the proper quotation!

rich545 · December 2004

Hmmm. Good to see you haven't changed much since the good 'ole high schools days. I'll hold off on saying anything negative about our neighbors to the north because though high school was only 16 years ago for me I'd like to think I've matured just a little since then. Anyway, ksccts, as I said to designman, I do like my car (obviously), and I'm not saying all of this for your validation. I'm simply pointing out that just because you don't like it doesn't make the car ugly or a bad car. Hell, for all I know the fact that you don't like how it looks may mean it's a true work of art!

rich545 · December 2004

Oh, and by the way, have you happened to look at the European sales figures for the E60? But then, I guess they have bad taste too right?

ksccts · December 2004

We all know most europeans have bad taste as do most Americans as do, in reality, most people. Nice sentence structure. Actually, if I don't like how a car looks then that does make it unattractive. E60 is a great car, some traits not included, but it is not a good looking auto no matter how many people swear the opposite.

pat · December 2004

Err, let's be careful about sweeping generalizations - individual opinions are fine and what we are here for, but to declare that some, any, group of people all feel the same way, and even worse, the way "they" feel is somehow "bad" a) doesn't make sense and b) isn't good form. Okay?

kdshapiro · December 2004

We can agree there are varied tastes and one man's meat is another man's poison.

ksccts · December 2004

Well put!

seloo · December 2004

Gentlemen, (Let's have a group hug)

We all can agree that these cars are great, most people on this board drive one.

There is no doubt that the E39 is a classic automobile, the E60 is the natural evolution of the model and in due time this model will take it's place in the classic ranks.

We are all very fortunate that we have the time to debate about our very expensive toys.

Everyone have a blessed holiday season!!!

nyccarguy · December 2004

"1) the 545 doesn't seem (significantly) more powerful than the 530. Just can't get over the relatively anemic hp ratings for the 530, though. But yes, the 530 still seemed EVEN STRONGER than the 05 RL which I've also driven, rated at 300hp."

Don't look at the 530i's hp ratings on paper. BMW has been known to quote very conservative hp numbers. The Inline 6 is inherently balanced and turbine smooth. It also produces healthy amounts of torque. So when you felt the 530i quicker than the RL, you're right it probably is. But if you really want numbers, then wait until the late '05s come out with the 3.0L valvetronic I6 rated at close to 260hp.

cassidym · December 2004

Hey rich545, I've experienced the same phenomena with my E60 (2005 545 six-speed). In the month and a half that I've had it here in the States, at least a half dozen people have walked up to me to compliment my ride. One guy even ran out of the dealership and demended to know what color my it was (Olivene Green) because he was going to buy 'the same damn thing'.

hpowders · December 2004

No reliability issues? I'm thinking seriously of a 545 next August.

530ir1150r · December 2004

I killed a board a month or two ago. This time I'll be brief and paraphrase.

BMW decided to chase volume 25-30 years ago.

Each "advancement" has been resisted by the fan.

Sales increase, but each generation is less a "BMW" to the fan.

Eventually BMW will be bought out, but they will not be making "BMW"s any more.

kyfdx · December 2004

I've got news for you.. the more cars they sell, the less chance of being bought out.. One family controls a majority of the stock in the company... They don't have to sell, if they don't want to.. And, if they sell more cars, they won't need to.

The old geezers still driving their 2002s don't have the numbers to support a thriving car company.. so, I'm kind of glad that BMW has moved onward and upward and isn't marketing to them anymore.

Really... the majority of people griping about the E60 are E39 owners.. Most people really like the new styling..

That doesn't mean that it is attractive.. that is a personal decision.. but, all of this claptrap about it being the end of the company.. please..

regards,

kyfdx

ksccts · December 2004

Interesting perspective.

rich545 · December 2004

Nice reading comprehension. It makes the car unattractive to YOU, not everyone else. I'm glad that you seem to think you're the pinnacle of good taste, but I'm sure that's arguable at best. Enough of this childish bantering though. If you'd like to continue bashing everyone that likes how the E60 looks go right ahead. It says more about you than it does about us anyway.

rich545 · December 2004

Pretty wild isn't it? I never expected it, and this certainly never happened with the '03 330xi I had before it. I guess it's the kind of design that people either love or hate. Not a lot of middle ground.

designman · December 2004

No need to take it personally, it's not childish, rather it's an opinion, an expression of disappointment with hope that it will change. I hear people criticizing the car, not the people who buy it. In other threads people criticize each others cars/brands and get along just fine. I prefer the term "criticize". "Bashing" is little too billigerent.

rich545 · December 2004

Companies that don't grow or change die eventually. I don't really know who "the fan" is, but I can't think of a single company that failed because of increased sales. There is no such thing as a car that defines "BMW". Different people have their favorite models and model years so how do you decide what "BMW" really is? The fact is the company is trying to stay ahead of its competition which is proactive and smart. There will always be people that resist any change. BMW as a company can't worry about them because all that they do is hold the company back. What yould you like them to do? Produce the same exact cars every year forever? It would be interesting to take a poll on this board to see how many people that hate the E60 actually own the E39. I'm willing to bet it's an overwhelming majority.

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