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Lexus LS 400/LS 430

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Comments

  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    All-weather tires are always noisier that summer tires.
  • merckxmerckx Member Posts: 565
    I should have been clearer that I was referring to rattles rather than road noise generated by the tires themselves.
  • paulchiupaulchiu Member Posts: 378
    I tried on 2 occasions to get the MB dealer to address the noise, and the area was actually identified. The panels underneath the comand nav system and the panel around the nav screen. Once they sprayed something like WD-40 on it and the noise came back after a week, and the second time they just say the service manager could not hear any rattles. So the short answer is no.
  • feverhartfeverhart Member Posts: 144
    Merckx is correct when he alludes to the aspect ration causing the harder ride. Unfortunately for the Lexus, 55 is the highest available for the 17 inch wheels, whereas the 16 inch have a ration of 60. It's not really the size of the wheel; the determining factor is the aspect ratio.
  • oac3oac3 Member Posts: 373
    While this is also not a direct answer to your question, but I'd like to disagree with whybuy1's assertion of rattles in the LS. The consensus opinion you'd find here is that the LS is a much quieter car than the S500. Not to say that whybuy1's opinion is not true, but most are rattle-free. My '99 LS has ZERO rattle. And I suspect that will be the same for many many LS's you'd find/hear or read about.
  • paulchiupaulchiu Member Posts: 378
    Dr brt mentioned that he had a rock chip on his new Ls while driving home. Is the height of the Ls windsheld perhaps more susceptible to debris hitting it at a vulnerable angle?

    What's the verdict here on this count? I once had a sports car that was very low riding and had 2 bad breaks while my old Volvo 240 never had any for 11 years.

    And thanks for your comment on the rattles....

    Paul
  • jbianco12jbianco12 Member Posts: 125
    Knock wood, I too have had no problems with rattles. The car is incredibly quiet. The only minor issue I had was a groan from the steering wheel when I turned on the ignition when it was hot out. Service took care of the problem immediately. So...after 8 mos. of ownership, I am 100% satisfied.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    There are ex S-class buyers here so I hope they step up and give you some of their feedback. I agree with post 3258 on rattles and quietness. It's a noticably quieter car than an S-500 with better build quality and higher reliability. It seems that you are very much like myself and others here in your needs and desires based on your driving preferences. Lexus will suit you better than MB because it excels there and pleases better. It took me quite sometime to decide between the two cars in 2001 but in the end I stayed with Lexus (came out of 95 and 98 LS400 leases). Never had a rattle or a repair needed in all that time. This is as close to perfection as you can get and it handles well - particularly the Euro suspension. It just overpampers (which I like) thus you don't feel the road the way you would in a BMW.

    By the time 2004 rolls around though you will be dealing with an updated design, a 360hp engine and maybe even a v-12 option. So the car will be changing but I am sure they will keep the wonderful isolated ride. They'd better!
  • whybuy1whybuy1 Member Posts: 43
    I simply related my own experience. I cannot claim to know about other's experience. It is nice to know that my dealer will take me seriously when I bring in the car to fix a rattle rather than blowing me off as other dealers might. Posts 3252 and 3256 seem to reveal a difference in dealer commitment to the maintenance of the quietness of these high-end vehicles. I agree that nothing substitutes for solid construction and intelligent design at the factory.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Same type of experience for me - I once requested touch-up paint at the dealer to have around - just in case. They were out of it but the next day I got it from Lexus via fedex. It was certainly not anything urgent but they treated it that way.
  • brtmdbrtmd Member Posts: 54
    S500: When I was shopping and visited my local MB dealer/salesman (a great guy who already knows me well from prior business), he actually steered me away from the S500 (yes, I was surprised too). He was much more interested in waiting to show me the new E500. He had an S500 in the show room ready to sell (even my color) and didn't even have a brochure for the new E500. He was being a little vague about about the S500, but said I would "probably be more satisfied with the E class." He also made the comment that the S class is a great choice for somebody who "has to have an S"--that seems pretty obvious.

    To me, the S500 (and the new 745i for that matter) seemed like a very nice car, but in the end it just came down to priorities, and I felt I would be more satisfied with the LS (somewhat of a leap for me since I have never owned a Lexus). Post 3261 from ljflx matches well with my thoughts that led me toward the LS and Eurotuned suspension.

    Windshield rock chips: Probably more bad luck than anything else, although forward surface area and angle of windshield obviously matter. By the way, it repaired very well.
  • aklein2aklein2 Member Posts: 18
    TO brtmd:

    I was awfully glad to see that the eurotuned suspension would not be dropped after all, too. I meant to get back to you earlier about that, but have been so #$* busy over the last couple of weeks that I didn't manage to do that. Thanks for your confirm on that topic.

    TO all: new question. I see that the Mercedes E500 will do 0-60 in 6.0. Isn't the LS 430 a bit slower than that (like by .02-.03)? This annoys me, especially when I'm giving up the GS 400 and its close to 5.6 in the '98 version to get something new. OK. The LS 430 is a big step up in luxury and comfort. But maybe the E500 is, too. (I plan to try one out today to see.) I'd appreciate comments comparing the E500 with the LS 430, including service and pricing experiences.
  • brtmdbrtmd Member Posts: 54
    aklein2: I have only been driving mine for a few days now, but the Euro is clearly different. Negatives--I think there is slightly more road noise, but that is compared to the LS I drove with the 16" wheels/tires with a taller sidewall; the ride is noticeably more firm (which I prefer), but is probably very similar to your GS400 and reminds me of the bmw 540 (without the sport suspension option). Positives--most notable is the improved on-center responsiveness (like with a lane change) and seems to be less body lean when cornering. If you are driving a GS now, I'll bet you will feel at home with the Euro LS.
    As for the E500, I would definitely consider it if you don't need the larger sedan. The primary reason I did not really consider the new E was size. Since I was replacing an SUV, I wanted a bigger sedan with more interior/trunk space.
  • aklein2aklein2 Member Posts: 18
    TO:brtmd

    What could I have been thinking of? It took me twelve years to consider straying from Lexus. It will be at least another twelve before I do that again.

    While the E500 looks good, if a bit gaudy (too many surface changes as one sweeps along the car for my taste), on the outside, the interior is tiny and very confined compared to my GS 400 (to say nothing of the LS 430). The front seats are hard and pretty uncomfortable, though I'm sure devotees will claim that they provide more "support" than Lexus seats, something I doubt.

    How does it drive? Well, quite well. The extra ride firmness options -- there are two -- seem superfluous in such a tight car. The E500 has a nice, tight "all of one piece" feel to it, and corners well at speed. Steering is tight, too, and accurate. The turning circle matches that of the LS, I think. The transmission operates very smoothly without noticeable shifts as one goes up the acceleration curve. A tap to the left of the shitfer is supposed to get the "right" gear at once at any speed. I could not learn to do this effectively, however, in my short drive -- though maybe it works better, like the rest of the complications in this vehicle, discussed below, with practice. The brakes are excellent. Benz claims that the car goes 0-60 in 6.2. (Lexus LS 430 tests reveal about that same pace, as I remember). The E500 felt slower than that to me.

    On to the details, where the Devil resides. The tach is tiny -- too tiny to be of any use. The car's controls are many and baffling: hard to operate at best and oddly placed. The gizmos, of which there are many, are overly complicated (switching functions to one's steering wheel hub, for example). The Benz sales person who showed me the car flunked the "how does each of these things work" test. I sympathize: learning what they all do and how to do it looks like a formidable task. While the cabin is quiet, there's an annoying, heavy "thunk" from the rear when one pushes the button that flattens out the rear seat head rests -- essential if they have been raised by a passenger and the driver plans on using the rear window to see things. The rear seats themselves are not up to snuff for a car of this price: no one will enjoy being in them for even a short trip. They are hard, flat and have no leg room to speak of. What's with the huge new turn signal lights on the outside mirrors? Wonder how long until they get scratched up by collisions with things (something that has persuaded other makers to make sure that outside mirrors swing away from such forward collisions)? The drink holders are a joke: to use any (and, yes, there are two in front and in back) the driver has to deploy -- and I use the word advisedly because it's a kind of automated lifting up and out and then unfolding operation, necessary only in a car that regards cupholders as an after-thought and surely vulnerable to malfunction) -- the passenger cup holder first. Then the driver can bury his/her own drink deep in the tiny hole in the center console compartment from which the passenger holder emerged. This holder might be large enough for a Coke can, but that's pushing it. Then there's the CD player. You get a single disc player in the dashboard. If you want more, you have to get a six-CD player installed in the glove compartment. Sort of last century stuff. (And even this is a first for Benz, apparently.)The lights on the inside, all on the dome, are huge and intrusive, like something out of my refrigerator.

    I could go on, but perhaps I've said enough to convey what the inside of this car is like.

    Finally, trimmed to mimic what one can get on the LS 430 without the navigation system, the E500 tops out at about $63,000 (before the gas guzzler tax).

    Bottom line: Benz will have to find other buyers for its new offering. I'm sure it will, but I doubt that many of them will have spent much time in either the GS or the LS sedans.
  • flint350flint350 Member Posts: 250
    Nice report. But don't post that stuff on the Benz boards - you'll be stoned as a heretic.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Apparently nothing much has changed from the old model in regard to interior confinement. This is indeed a very tight car for a family of four. Remember it's the size of an ES300/Camry. When I drove the E-430, many times, it didn't feel like a luxury car nor did it feel like the expensive car it was. For my wife and I, before we had kids, it would have been a good car but not at its price point. It's a beautifully styled car, as are most MB models but it will not convert too many Lexus buyers. We've been spoiled.
  • paulchiupaulchiu Member Posts: 378
    You are simply telling it like it is. Before my 2001 S500, I had a year experience with an ES300. The seats were great, I could drive 500 miles to Toronto from New York without aches, and the car did not even have thw massaging feature. It was the wind noise of that 98 model (one without the door frames) which had me switch for another. Now, after 3 other cars, I have this overgrown status symbol. My main issue with the S is the bad material and interior noise which I discussed here earlier....

    Now that you mentioned it, I really do not enjoy driving even 100 miles in the S, with the massaging seats. I think the seats might be comfortable for people with more cushioning, I am too lean for these seats. Using the S to race down the highway though, is quite satisfying, as not too many 2 ton+ luxury liners can be as agile.

    Finally, I also post on the S class board, and I am not the only one complaining there.
  • brtmdbrtmd Member Posts: 54
    So are you saying you didn't care for the E500? (just kidding)

    The new E500 is a fine car, and I would imagine those who purchase the E500 will be quite satisfied. However, I would suggest you are making a good decision by choosing to not "stray" from Lexus if you have been a satisfied owner. Different strokes. . .
  • et610et610 Member Posts: 40
    When is the body style of the ls430 due for a change? The 2003 is exactly the same and I believe that the previous couple years were the same.
    Don't want to buy an 03 and have it change next year or two.
    Also, the msrp difference between 02 and 03 with custom package was about $2,000. A big jump with no feature change.
  • carfan4surecarfan4sure Member Posts: 49
    et610, doesn't the '03 custom package add for that extra money:
    Dynamic Laser Cruise Control,
    Intuitive Parking Assist,
    Front climate-control seats with heat-and-cool knob and rear-seat heaters,
    Headlamp washer, and
    Power trunk and door closer?
    I'd go for it, but you have to pay for the "fancier" leather.
  • chuck107chuck107 Member Posts: 20
    Comments from Auto Consumer Guide:

    You can also forget about major changes until the next LS redesign, which shouldn't come before model-year 2006. But do expect minor year-to-year updates, including an appearance alteration or two and a few new comfort and convenience gadgets. Though the LS already offers so many gizmos that it's hard to imagine what else could be added, you can bet Lexus will think up some new ones
  • chuck107chuck107 Member Posts: 20
    From the Lexus website the only increase I see is on the base price (up $520). However when you consider that the 17 inch wheels are standard ($100 option in 2002), the actual increase is really only $420. All the packages and single options are the same as 2002.
  • brtmdbrtmd Member Posts: 54
    The Mark Levinson/Navigation combo package did have a minor change as it now includes the climate control seats and parking assist. There was an associated price increase for this package. Like, chuck107, I had not noticed any other changes.
  • oac3oac3 Member Posts: 373
    The LS4, like many cab-forward designed cars does ride low in the front (for me it appears a tad too low w/out the air suspension), and may be susceptible to more rock chips like brtmd found on his ride home from the dealership. So far I've got no chip on the windshield.

    FWIW, a friend of mine has an '03 LS430 UL on order due October and he told me he is itching so bad for it. And this guy is HUGE on German cars - own a '98 S500 and a '95 740iL Bimmer, and loves to drive real fast..... Now he is a Lexus convert.
  • paulchiupaulchiu Member Posts: 378
    Guys,

    If my lease expires on 9/28/2003, would I be ordering a 2003 or 2004 Ls430 then?

    Thanks,

    Paul
  • brtmdbrtmd Member Posts: 54
    Paul,
    I don't know for sure, but to give you an idea, I ordered my vehicle in the middle of June 2002 (the order was written for a 2002 model year)and ended up with a 2003. However, it probably also depends on exactly what you order--i.e. whether there is already a vehicle in the order/manufacture "pipeline" to fill the bill. Mine was a Euro suspension, of which fewer are made, which may account for why my June '02 order ended up as a '03.

    My guess is you could specifically order a 2004 model early enough and have it by the time your lease expires; my 2003 was delivered to the dealer on 9-10-02.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    If you go the Lexus route I'd wait till 2004 for sure. It'll be updated at least in power and Lexus tends to introduce significant changes every 3 years. 2004 would be the year. Many of the changes are not cosmetic so they are not noticable but all of them advance the car significantly. I'm sure if you need a loaner car to bridge your lease they will get you one. If your in NY area Ray Catena (White Plains and Ocean NJ) or Lexus of Manhattan are fabulous to deal with and will give you outstanding service and attention.

    Flint350 - saw your color today with all around tinted glass. It looked great. All of these lux cars, the MB S especially, look best with tinted glass. I may go the tinted glass route next time.
  • carfan4surecarfan4sure Member Posts: 49
    To all of you who have ordered an LS430, instead of taking one off of the lot, have you been able to discount/negotiate a good price? I've been quoted $3,600 off for a special order, not as good as one off of the lot. I emailed another dealer to get a quote from them and got no response at all. My wife wants a color that is apparently on only 1% of the cars.
  • chuck107chuck107 Member Posts: 20
    Back in the middle of August, I ordered a 2003 Silver with Black Interior Ultra Lux. After a little haggling I was able to get $5,500 off. At first they were only willing to go this amount if I took an '02, but they finally agreed. The car is due in the first of October. I would imagine the silver is a pretty popular color.
  • carfan4surecarfan4sure Member Posts: 49
    To all of you who have ordered an LS430, instead of taking one off of the lot, have you been able to discount/negotiate a good price? I've been quoted $3,600 off for a special order, not as good as one off of the lot. I emailed another dealer to get a quote from them and got no response at all. My wife wants a color that is apparently on only 1% of the cars.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Housekeeping....

    Pardon the interruption, but the "The" in the title of this discussion needs to go away. It does not fit with the naming convention and is an issue for anyone who sorts the main discussion list alphabetically.

    Who would think to look for a Lexus discussion under "T"?

    So the "The" is no longer a part of the title of this discussion. "The Lexus LS" is now "Lexus LS" - cool, huh?

    Thanks muchly to a member for making this eminently sensible suggestion.

    :)
  • paulchiupaulchiu Member Posts: 378
    Are the discounts you all been talking about from the dealer price or dealer cost?
  • carfan4surecarfan4sure Member Posts: 49
    Dealer Price.
  • paulchiupaulchiu Member Posts: 378
    OK, so we are still above the so called dealer cost. That makes sense, as unlike Ford and GM, Toyota makes money!
  • brtmdbrtmd Member Posts: 54
    Yes, they certainly do make money. As an example, the dealer sticker price on a 2002 ultra lux model is about $9400.00 higher than the dealer invoice/cost; so a discount of $5500.00 off of sticker price still leaves a nice profit for the dealer.
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    I always bargain for the total out the door purchase price exclusive of taxes and license and let the dealer figure out all of the other "stuff".
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    There is a large spread between invoice and MSRP on the LS430 (usually $8k+ or so) so the dealer had a lot of wiggle room. MB keeps the spread a lot tighter which is why there cars will sell closer to MSRP.
  • brtmdbrtmd Member Posts: 54
    As pointed out by ljflx above, MB does keep a tighter spread between retail and invoice prices. I believe this likely accounts for MB's common use (need?) of factory incentives at the end of the model year to attract buyers.

    Lexus dealers, on the other hand, can simply offer deep "discounts" from MSRP and still make a profit (of course, the dealer still has to pay operating expenses and commisions out of that "profit"). I don't recall ever seeing a Lexus add offer "cash back incentives" or the like.
  • et610et610 Member Posts: 40
    I have not been able to get any of the three Lexus dealers here in the Seattle area to budge at all off from the msrp on a LS430.
    They have all clearly stated that the policy due to limited availability is to hold to the msrp.
    Anyone else finding this?
    Maybe I need to look outside this area if big discounts are available.

    Any advice?
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    They are so variable and tied to regions and even localities within regions. When the LS430 first came out they were going over sticker in my general area but my dealer would not sell at a price over MSRP. On the other hand he was one of the last to discount as well. I've seen discounts posted on Edmunds (and even Edmunds TMV) that could never be had where I live unless it was an unpopular color or a demo. As well there are times that the dealer will discount - more often at the end of the month and/or quarter to meet or exceed targets. So maybe that is the best time to buy and take one off the lot. If you do a factory order I would imagine it is hard to get a discount, particularly early in the model year. As well since many people lease, the car's value will decline the later you get into the model year hence the better discounts - say in March 2003 as opposed to now.
  • paulchiupaulchiu Member Posts: 378
    I will most likely lease my Ls430 next year, as I only do 5 to 10K miles a year. Anyone have experience leasing their ls430? For instance, what's the residual on a loaded Ls ?
  • brtmdbrtmd Member Posts: 54
    et610: There are definitely discounts to be had off MSRP--on the order of several thousand dollars (I was certainly satisfied with my price). Whether it is worth dealing with a dealership far away . . .
  • et610et610 Member Posts: 40
    What are are you in. I would certainly consider dealing in another area if it was worth it.

    Anyone else in an area that offers discounts?
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    Microsoft money in the Seattle area, try MT.
  • brtmdbrtmd Member Posts: 54
    As I am in central TX, I am afraid I cannot help you with your search.
  • carfan4surecarfan4sure Member Posts: 49
    www.eskridgelexus.com is my local dealer who has quoted a discounted price to me.
    A long way from Seattle, et610, but the discount is greater than the cost of a one-way ticket or trailer-ing it if you are so inclined.
    As suggested by others, I think dealer discounting may be a reflection of local per/capita income, maybe even more so than competition from other Lexus dealers. At the same time, my Dad taught me never to negotiate for your best price wearing socks and a clean T-shirt...
  • wwestwwest Member Posts: 10,706
    many dealers have now become aware that the nerdy unkempt poorly dressed guy may be packing a wad of cash, or Microsoft options, in his hip pocket.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Usually around 60% of MSRP on a 39 month lease and around 62-63% on a 36 month deal. The car has always been worth more than the buyout at lease end - at least that has always been my experience in the NY area.
  • airmaticairmatic Member Posts: 54
    have any of you been to Longo Lexus in El Monte, Los Angeles? That dealership is absolutely HUGE!!! My brother bought a 2000 LS400 there, they have about 2 of every color, each with the options that are rare or very expensive in smaller dealerships. Service there was great, I test drove a 2002 LS430 silver on charcoal. Offered about $53,000/$54,000 for a GPS/mark levinson package. Unfortunately, bought a 2002 S430 instead (something I regret to this day).

    And boy, do you not want to participate in the S-class discussion. Just today, a poor guy was blasted for not knowing something about a rear foglamp on a s-class. they are tough there!
    I Am still considering strongly a 2003 custom luxury LS430 to replace S430.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I read some of those comments on the S board. If you go back in time you'll see many complaints and frustrations with the car as well. I thought I read you were thinking about the E-500. Be careful - you've had one regret already based on that last post.

    Paulchiu - the residual percentages I noted are on 12k miles per annum leases

    Flint350 - you're getting busy again. I sat in the rear of the LS430 once - in the showroom. Just wanted to make sure there was plenty of space back there. I'm a 6 footer and with the front seat as far back as possible I had plenty of leg room. I think the S has a bit more - it should at 7 inches longer - but I'd say that extra space works best when you are taking a child out of a car seat (not that this is hard nor are you pressed for room in the LS430) more so than stretching out. As for comfort/luxury I have always found the cushiony seats on the LS430 (front - where I live but I'm sure the back would be the same) ideally comfortable and the interior the best in this end of the luxury world. When you are behind the wheel it's a great place to be. The Designo package makes it closer for the S but that costs $9k or so.
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