Lexus LS 400/LS 430

ljflx · May 2003

If the car had the navigation system than it likely had the ML stereo. That is a package deal and the only time you will have them independently in an LS is on custom orders. I've always put good radios in cars and the only stereo I've ever heard that compares to the ML is the Nakamichi that Lexus had before 2001 as the premium option. Trying out the ML with a CD rather than just the radio will really bring out its high quality.

I've had a number of friends that have given up on MB because of reliability problems. Some were totally frustrated from continuing problems with minor things to some real serious problems with brakes locking up rendering the car unusable. In 2001 I almost went with the S500 but backed off because of fear of bad reliability plus that Lexus ride and serenity is just unbeatable. I also knew I was signing up for a trouble free car. That is not guaranteed but your chances of getting a bad one are very small. In 2004 when my lease is up I'm not thinking of anything but the LS. I do hear that an LS500 with a 360hp is definitely going to be an option. I'll find out more on Friday as I am scheduled for service.

Lastly as much as I love the LX ride, luxury comforts and interior space - and I just took it for a 250 mile trip yesterday so its fresh in my mind - I could not give up the LS for it. It's great to have both though. But in the land of SUV's there is nothing I'd rather be driving instead of the LX. With that said I am likely to trade down to the GX though because my wife feels more comfortable driving an SUV that is a bit smaller than the LX. She also finds herself needing space for more than 5 people more and more lately. From everything I've heard the GX is also a great SUV and very quiet and smooth with better handling.

Take your time and pick what you like best. You've got plenty of time to decide. Good luck.

anthonycecil · May 2003

I find the ml radio to be supremely clear. In fact it is the clearest sounding system Ihave ever heard. The base does not go down that much, but the clearness is well worth the extra charge. Tony

nealm1 · May 2003

The Mark Levinson stereo is the best available -- OEM or aftermarket -- on the market today. Easily. Now, by "best," I mean the most faithful and accurate reproduction possible, the most vivid and realistic soundstage, and the cleanest, most distortion-free sound even at ridiculous volume levels. There is an Absolute Sound review from 2001 that is buried in the early posts on this board; you should read it. Also look at the Edmunds LS "Road Test," which rates the LS ML as the best available at any price.

I am surprised you didn't like it in your test drive. Did you take some source material with which you are familiar? Remember, an exceptionally high quality stereo will reproduce sound faithfully, and therefore show the weaknesses in the source material that may not be apparent with another system. Listening to the FM radio, for example, is bound to be a frustrating experience because the stations compress and process their signals so vigorously. Gives their signal more range but it sounds just dreadful. (Anyone know whether ML/Lexus will add XM in the '04?)

Take a CD you know well and you know to have excellent sound. Try the Clash's London Calling or Green Day "Warning" if you like rock, The Essential Mingus Big Band or American Jazz Orchestra "For Ellington" if you like jazz (I can make other recommendations if you are interested).

Also, the lore is that the system gets "warmer" as it ages, and I suppose this might be true, although it is hard to tell w/o side-by-side comparisions.

Finally, I have never turned the bass control past 1:00 (yes, I have the non-nav, analog controls, but that is another topic). With all due respect to Anthonycecil, I simply cannot imagine complaining about a lack of bass response. Tight, controlled, and warm; on the right material, it is a physical presence. If you crank it up, you could crack a windshield. My wife complains that she can hear me coming a block away -- that I sound like a "50-cent wannabe."

I love a lot of things about the car, but the ML is far and away my favorite. I can't listen to music at anythng above a wisper in my house due to familial constraints; I REALLY love the open road and a great CD.

paulchiu · May 2003

Neal, you must think you're Neo, playing your ML that loud.. :-)

Thanks for the review, I'll try look for Absolute Sound article.

I listen to 106.7 FM in NYC, and it was not great. I'll try a CD next time. I love to test equipment with 'Jazz at the Pawnshop'. Love to 'see' how each instrument is placed in the LS or LX470.

dustbird · May 2003

Biased for sure, but still interesting is the wealth of information on this ML/Lexus site:

http://www.marklevinsonlexus.com/

One thing I've come to appreciate with the ML is a well-produced CD. The ML (and the LS) really exposes the quality of the source material for what it is...good, bad, or otherwise.

Maybe I'm dreaming it up, but it seems I can even differentiate production values between songs on a given CD. After extensive unscientific evaluations (conducted while commuting to work), I have concluded that some bands/producers spend more time and effort on the "hit single" and less on the other tracks. For instance, on Smash Mouth's self-titled CD, the song, Pacific Coast Party is much clearer and has IMHO, a better overall sound than most of the other tracks.

On other stereos, none of this would be measurable.

ljflx · May 2003

I'm with you all the way. Give me the open road and turn up the stereo and I'm all set. Unfortunately it doesn't happen often enough and my wife is ALWAYS lowering the volume on me.

Paul - I'm a big 106.7 fan also. Great music station. No comparison though between it and a CD. I tend to make my own compilations these days.

nealm1 · May 2003

The bane of every audiophile's existence. You can have great sound, or you can have meaningful material, but only rarely can you have both in one CD (or record etc). I am doubly cursed, in that I am a fan of music that either had its zenith in the 50s for the most part (straight ahead jazz) or in the early 70s (roots rock). That means that my play list is full of compromises. The 10% of my collection that is both sonically and artistically outstanding is in constant very heavy rotation. More than 1,000 album's worth of material and a relative handful of these gems.

ljflx, I am doing a lot of compilations lately with the Apple iMusic store and my own collection. They play fine on the ML, esp. with the sunroof open and the windows down on a glorious spring day (all too few of those this year!), but the bit rate (192) and compression process do no good for the sonic integrity of the music.

randolph4 · May 2003

What is the best price anyone has seen for a new basic model 2003 LS 430 (new)? MSRP is approximately $57,750. Best I have seen is $53,000.

randolph4 · May 2003

What is the best price you have seen on a new basic model LS 430? The MSRP is approximately $57,750

paulchiu · May 2003

Can the ML audio play MP3's or CD's burned from computers? My S500 Bose CD cannot play CD-RW at all, and skips on CD-R's.

vcheng · May 2003

...my 2003 LS plays CD-Rs just fine. I do know that MP3s are not playable, but I do not know about CD-RWs as I have not tried to play one of these.

nealm1 · May 2003

Play fine in my LS. MP3 format compresses the hell out of the signal, but they play just fine

vcheng · May 2003

The ML in my 2003 LS does NOT play MP3 format files.

ljflx · May 2003

Never tried MP3's. But the CD's burned on your computer play beautifully.

stevestein · May 2003

Don't put CD's with stick-on labels in the ML! A small wrinkle can cause the CD to jam in the player. I also had bad results using CD-R with a blue tinted playing surface. Silver and gold hued media worked fine. I don't know if my unit was extra sensitive or this is common.

vcheng · May 2003

ron36330 · May 2003

I personally don't know prices but if you go to hometown@aol.com you will find some of the best prices around. As an endorsement check clublexus.com SC board. A guy there bought an 03 GX and an 03 SC. He stated they were delivered as advertised and is totally satisfied.
Best I can do.
Good luck.
Ron

ljflx · May 2003

That guy is posting everywhere. I'm not sure it should be trusted.

nealm1 · May 2003

Prompted by all the discussion about the ML system, I sent an email to ML asking whether the '04 would include an XM receiver. Here is the answer I got:

"I will inquire as to what information I am willing to share about the system plans for the future. Lexus usually wants to remain very tight-lipped about this information."

Reading between the lines, it sounds to me as though they are at least considering XM or Sirius. That would be a real improvement.

As for CD formats, a store-bought/factory-recorded CD is not in MP3 format, but if you rip one off of your computer (as ljflx and I were suggesting), it is going to be processed as an MP3 or AAD file before it hits the CD, I am fairly sure. That is how it gets digitized on your hard drive. The AAD format is Mac proprietary I believe. I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.

vcheng · May 2003

Conventional audio CD format is digitized at 44.1 KHz without any compression, and these files can be edited, stored etc on a computer as .wav files. The file size is about 70-80 MB per 3-4 minute song. Super audio CD (SACD) is digitized at 96 KHz, and has additional data layers on the CD, which are not accessible to ordinary CD players. MP3 files are MPEG Layer 3 compressed audio files that are about one-tenth (about 7-8 MB per 3-4 minute song) the size of corresponding .wav files depending on the bit rate. Usually 128 bits or higher yields acceptable sound quality. 196 bits or over is about as good as a conventional CD, but results in bigger files. Most PC software (I do not know anything about Macs) can change formats on the fly, eg Roxio's Easy CD creator will take MP3 source files and create an audio CD by converting them to 44.1 KHz .wav files that can play in any CD player.

I am doing some background work on adding XM to my ML system, hoping to avoid FM modulation. I would be interested in exchanging information with anyone else contemplating this.

nealm1 · May 2003

vcheng obviously knows a great deal more about the technology than I do. Here is what I see as the problem. When you donwload a song from a pristine, store-bought CD to the hard drive of your computer, it converts it into an mpeg (MP3) file. When you then burn that song onto a compilation CD, the data lost during the store-bought-CD-to-hard-drive process is gone for ever and cannot be restored. Therefore, the compilation CD, ripped on a computer, will never sound as good as the store-bought CD. The difference is noticeable.

I always use the 196 bit rate for downloads on my Mac, and even at this higher rate, the difference is noticeable. But since I listen to the downloaded music primarily on airlpanes, or while weazing on treadmills, excercycles, etc., the difference is not that significant.

The Mac can read all of the current MP3-like formats "on the fly," but converts them (I think) to the AAD format for use, which, I am told, is superior. Sort of like the betamax experience all over again, though Mac has been aggressive in implementing cross-platform transparancy (a lesson Sony never learned).

Now, if Lexus/ML add (a) and XM/Sirius receiver or preamp-level inputs; AND (b) an SACD reader, that would BY ITSELF motivate me to trade early.

vcheng · May 2003

<<When you donwload a song from a pristine, store-bought CD to the hard drive of your computer, it converts it into an mpeg (MP3) file. >> NOT NECESSARILY.

You can store songs from a store-bought CD digitally as .wav files at a 44.1 KHz sampling rate, and not convert them to MP3 format at all. This way, there is no compression and absolutely no loss of quality. Trust me, I have done this, and with the proper software, there is no difference at all because it is a true digital copy.

You are right in that if you convert to MP3s at any point, you are likely to lose quality, especailly at lower bitrates.

JBaumgart · May 2003

My experience is that music downloaded and burned at a bit rate of 320 sounds about as good as a store-bought CD. Even at 256 there is a noticeable loss of clarity and dynamic range. I cannot tell the difference between WAV files and those stored at 320. I don't bother with anything at 192 or less.

vcheng · May 2003

...the MP3 files tend to be a lot bigger, in which case I just went back to plain old .wav files, which offers greater flexibility from a software point of view.

wwest · May 2003

CAUTION !!

Some inks will penetrate the substrate and damage the material, personal experience.

vcheng · May 2003

..usually work best with the cap taken off and using the tip with ink. Its use as an engraving tool is highly dangerous to the integrity of the data especially if used on the data side of the CD.

In any case, I will surely spin out and crash in a front wheel drive car due to adverse vehicle dynamics, or crash from an intantaneously fogged windshield due to a poorly designed AC system, before losing the data on my CDs!

wwest · May 2003

I assumed the particular marker pen my friend used had a high acidic content in the ink and it actually did penetrate the substrate and damaged the recorded material.

Speaking of fogged windows...

wwest · May 2003

Nobody volunteered to let me experiment with their 92 LS...

Located an early delivery (11/92) private sale LS400 black/ivory, with 153,000 miles in Tucson via autotrader.

Bought it Wednesday afternoon for $6600.00.

Owner had just installed new timing belt and water pump, and cautioned that the A/C needed work and the security system was intermittent. Climate control LCD was obviously in failure mode.

A/C shop added 6 oz. of freon and no leaks detected, security system was due to a loose #5 fuse socket holder, neither of the electric radiator cooling fans are operative.

Drove 741 miles yesterday on ~30 gallons of premium, AZ speed limit is 75MPH but traffic was moving above that.

Haven't yet had a chance to explore the climate control functionality in detail but seemed to be fully functional otherwise.

Lexus records indicated an "in-service" date of 11/92, about the same time I bought my first new one. Records also indicate the car had been to Lexus service only rarely, almost never considering the mileage, but appears to be in excellent shape.

To be continued.....

vcheng · May 2003

..my post was in jest, and I must say that I do enjoy your posts all over Edmunds. I did put in a smiley at the end of my post.

wwest · May 2003

But I wanted to be sure ALL readers took the acidic ink issue seriously.

vcheng · May 2003

oac3 · May 2003

I was at the dealer today changing my oil and getting the front brakes replaced. Asked a service writer AND a sales guy what's in store for '04. Here are what I gathered:

1) RX330 hybrid will debut as an '05 release, but come out about mid-year 2004.

2) The GS 3/4 redesign is due out this fall. Interesting that the two gentlemen could not agree on this issue - one said Lexus will push back on the release to '05 in order to generate more sales for the GS line, sales that are lagging quite badly. The other was emphatic that the redesign is on its way for '04. I guess we shall see.

3) The LS will definitely get a facelift for '04. Trouble is neither of these guys could agree on the magnitude of the change. None wanted to comment on a possible AWD option for '04. Hmmmm...

On a different note: I had an '03 Camry loaner, and I was appalled at the butt-ugly dashboard and especially the speedo+tach display. Just simply cheap and terrible. Whatever happened to the wonderful display and dashboard in the mid-90 versions ??? Toyota may skimp, but it is simply ludicrous to see the poor designs they are turning out in their bread-and-butter Camry's.

alpha01 · May 2003

I'd imagine that coming out of any Lexus, even the IS, the Camry dash/instrumentation wouldnt begin to compare. That said, there are many who like the new instrumentation, including myself. The dash itself is perhaps too American, but the instrumentation is much improved, at least over the last generation Camry- it isnt so cookie cutter looking, and benefits from white-blue lighting at night (as opposed to the dreadful swamp green that afflicted the Camry for years).

I would love for the electroluminescent gauges to trickle down eventually.... perhaps if Lexus can come with something even more astonishing for their product.

I am interested- how do current generation LS owners feel their instrumentation/dashboard appeareance, ergonmics, and quality are compared to previous models, and competing models from MB and BMW?
~alpha

splogue · June 2003

I recently took a look at the redesigned owners area on the corporate Lexus site, and I see that it recommends that I take my 2002 LS430 in to the dealer to have the Lexus Link reflashed for a programming change. Apparently this includes an update to the users manual.

Does anyone know what this is for, and what it entails?

On an unrelated topic, my car seems to have developed the infamous steering wheel groan on extension now that the weather is hot. If anyone knows what the TSB number is and where I can get the text for it, that will help me when I bring the car in for the fix.

I guess I'll have them do both fixes at the same time.

Sean

paulchiu · June 2003

Is it just me, or are we missing messages here?
4135-4136 ?

ljflx · June 2003

They are missing as well.

flint350 · June 2003

I just replaced my front a/c filter after getting the warning light (it was actually dirty, but I think the light is timed/miles not a real "dirt" indicator). In case you do this, I discovered the way to "reset" the warning light - you replace filter, turn key on, hold climate control "OFF" button down for about 8 seconds and you will see "A/C filter reset" appear in the warning message window. Just FYI.

splogue · June 2003

Where did you buy the filter -- the dealer? Just curious. I know there are several air filters in this car, and I'm hoping there is some magic online source that has them for less.

Off the top of my head, I can think of two under each front seat, one for the front AC, and one for the rear AC. There may be more that I'm not thinking of. I'll have to check my books to see how often they are supposed to be replaced. (Of course the number of filters varies depending on which options the car has.)

Sean

paulchiu · June 2003

Test drove the 2003 LS430 ultra edition with the air and the soft aniline leather seats. The color combo was black/black, with the darker wood. It is stunning, but the misses want white.

As for the ride, the normal setting was perhaps a little less soft than the regular LS430, without the air suspension. I test drove 2 back to back. The sport mode in the ultra edition was very close to my 2001 S500's ride. The normal was noticeably better than my Mercedes, and it is close to total isolation, without having the engine closed.

I played my favorite Jazz CD on the ML for a considerable period of time, and I have to say it wasn't that much bette than the stock radio/cd.

But, the softer aniline leather in the deluxe is worth the extra bucks. 70,333 was the MSRP on this edition with everything. But it seems I could have walk out at close to 6K off. I am now unsure if I should get it now, or wait for the 2004's and take the chance that some comparable discount could be had during September. Any ideas?

ljflx · June 2003

Chances are that the 2004's with the body style change will be hot so I wouldn't expect much, if any discounting. It wasn't easy getting this car in our area in 2001 and it took until February to get $1-2k off. If you have the patience wait it out as the redesign looks nice. But if you want the bargain - now thru September is the best time.

Bu the way - just my 2 cents - but I like the car in black. Maybe your wife will like it with the brighter ecru interior. The black on black is too dark for me. I had it in 98 and got tired of the dark interior quickly.

paulchiu · June 2003

It was another rainy miserable day in the northeast when we tested 3 Lexus vehicles. The Black onyx with black seats was nice even under these awful conditions. But since I am already tired of my silver/dark grey interiors of my S500, I can understand why you and my wife hates the black/black.

One thing that had me considering the black/black was that you cannot get (order) the softer aniline leather in a lighter color for the ultra edition with a white exterior. So I was told.

wwest · June 2003

Go across the canadian border and order...

tdo123 · June 2003

flint350- I was a week late reading your post. I just took my car in for the 15k and mentioned that my a/c filter light had been on. They told me that in the midwest they should be changed 2 times a year, but I think it has got to be based on miles. I paid an additional $70 for the new filter and reset. Had I seen this, I would have reset for one more round and then had it changed. If the warning returned right away, I would know it was the filter and not based on miles.

vcheng · June 2003

I am curious as to how many of us with this option on the LS have activated it? Of those who haven't, how many, like me, are annoyed at the stupid message every time I start the car?

I do not believe the line that there is no way to shut the message off. Any ideas?

lenscap · June 2003

I attended the Lexus SUV driving event this weekend. While there, I had a chance to talk with a guy from the Lexus Midwest Regional Office. He confirmed the changes we've all heard about (front, back, bigger wheels, new features, etc.) to the LS this fall, but said the engine will not change. It may get a bump in horsepower, but it will remain a 4.3.

Three other interesting comments: The new GS coming next year will most likely have 4WD standard (that's what my dealer has been saying also), the GS will be the first car with the new Lexus "corporate" styling theme and the HPX concept will become a production car within the next year.

paulchiu · June 2003

Rick,

Did you get the date when the 2004 LS will hit the dealers?

Thanks

syswei · June 2003

Any word on whether AWD will be on the LS this fall?

rennybosch · June 2003

vcheng, I too am annoyed at the stupid LexusLink message, but have become convinced that there is not yet a way to turn it off. You can however greatly reduce its volume.

I have received a notice from Lexus that "An update to the voice prompt software is now available which will more accurately reflect the subscription status of your vehicle as well as provide the ability to control the voice prompt in the near future."

I take this to mean that at present I will still not be able to turn the stupid message off, but it will be a much longer message telling me that the hardware is OK but my subscription status is blah blah blah. So I intend to wait until the "near future" update comes out that will allow me to actually turn the message off.

vcheng · June 2003

rennybosch · June 2003

Lexus LS 400/LS 430

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