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Comments
This is simply not the case in the 70's, as most Americans believed the tiny (econo) boxes from Japan were simply a solution for the oil crisis in that high inflation period of American history.
Who's to say that the Koreans and even the Chinese auto makers of today wouldn't be the dominant auto makers in another 5 to 15 years.
You really should find the C&D edition where they reviewed the Kia in depth. A good read.
As for testing methods. I have no idea. I would think C&D's reports are pretty reliable. They have the highest circulation among the 3 main US car mags. You can find similar results in the other 2 US car mags and Consumers Report also tested a cheaper Kia (Optima) back in Jan 04 and the noise rating was better than the Taurus (not saying much) and as good as the Impala, and (base) Accord.
Of course, after driving a Lexus GS, you will probably not settle with anything less going forward. But even within Lexus, there is a noticeable difference from a RX330 and a LS430. An IS and a LX470, etc.
That's not to say that they are incapable of currently building or ever building a good car. But it does make me hesitant to think that a 60k+ dollar flagship Lexus LS430, made by the company that most prides itself and is most well known for making perfectly refined extremely well-made/reliable cars, is less refined (or at least more noisy) than a 25k dollar Kia.
Also, I agree there is a massive difference even within Lexus' own ranks. The ES330 and RX330 feel very similar to me in terms of driving dynamics (chassis feel, noise, steering, power, shifting, etc)... but all for a good reason since they are on a closely shared platform and drivetrain.
While they are both great cars, they feel like they aren't even made by the same company that makes the LS, GS, and SC, which all have a much more substantial and more of a 'point and shoot' feel to them IMO. And then with the GX and LX body on frame SUVs
By the way... thanks for reminding me about my profile (almost forgot that I had one here). Strangely enough I updated it with a second vehicle but it's not showing up. Does it take a while to show up or something?
Although, I will almost bet you that some poor interior auto designer at Lexus probably got "chewed" out after that report was posted, and you can be assured that the 2006 edition will likely be better. Their "relentless pursuit of perfection" is for real. The 2004 LS430 was 69dBA and 41dBA idle. So you can already see a BIG improvement there.
As for the profile, maybe Pat our forum boss can update it for you.
Still 69dB compared to 65dB is more than TWICE as loud. I mean that's just nuts!
BTW, from 65 to 69 isn't a doubling, since it's Log based, a 10 dBA difference is a doubling, so 4dBA is 40%.
See here:
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/sci/A0835810.html
Remember that when the LS400 debuted in 89-90, it only cost $38k and people at Cadillac, Lincoln, MB, and Jaguar were snorting "A luxury Toyota?! Hah!"
No one's laughing now.
So as someone who is really nuts about his LS400, I can only say that I look forward to a time when I can get near LS quality for 35% off in a Korean car that has no cachet. That's not yet the case, but we will all benefit if that comes to pass.
I also have to question those surveys sometimes... because you know darn well that even though Mercedes, *just for example*, looks terrible in JD Power's 90 day survey... I wonder how many of those Mercedes owners were complaining that there was a tiny little barely audible rattle, or their seat massager seemed sluggish. Whereas the Hyundia owners would get laughed out of the dealership if they made such a basic complaint because that level of attention to detail can't be expected for that price range in present day times. For that reason they probably would not report or even really think to notice a slightly misaligned fender gap or a loose screw in their glove box like a Mercedes owner would.
Furthermore, on most high end cars there are a LOT of toys and computer controlled systems, visible or not, that are just not present in lower end cars. With complication causes added problems.
So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think that at least for now, if Hyundai tried to make a 50-60k dollar luxury car with every feature on the market and promised only the best white glove quality and service to a their new much more discerning customer base... would their initial quality complaints not skyrocket... not to mention their mid-term and long-term quality.
Well, I've had my new '05 LS for a week now and WOW! What a car! I pay cash for my cars and like to hold them for a long time, but haven't done so recently with my old '98 (7 months, long story and my '02 (3.5 yrs)...I liked the old '02 initially, but it didn't seem like a "Keeper." Maybe it was just the silver/black combo..
I'm surprised how a modest refresh has improved the exterior. It looks much better than the previous car. I think it's more aggressive looking than my old '02 LS. I'm still getting used to the backup camera and the park assist system. The ability to control the transmission is a plus..The leather on the climate controlled seats also seems to be better than that on my older car. I think the navy blue/ivory interior is much better than the silver/black one on my old car. I think this design will age better than the last one..I definitely can't complain considering how much I paid.
The new car has a nice presence to it.My only complaint is the ivory floor mats..They get dirty far too easily..I bought a can of Scotchguard from Autozone and sprayed the mats...I also got plastic covers that will fit over them..It looks a little tacky, but it does the job.
The Lexus dealer listed my old '02 LS (Nav, ML, 25K) for $45K and sold it in two days...It was well maintained and shined like it was still new..Obviously there is a big market for these cars..
I'm new to Bluetooth..I'm aware of what it is, but how do you use it in the LS? Can you have the phone in your pocket and use the integrated system? My company phone is a Non Bluetooth Verizon one..Maybe I can cajole someone to give me a newer one..
One last comment..When I shopped for my new car, I looked at an S Class...It is me or does the S Class seem to have thicker sheetmetal? The Benz's metal had a much sturdier feel to it, yet it doesn't score any better in the crash tests...Any significance to that? I thought the AWD option was the only advantage the S430 had over my new car..However, after driving my car through 3 consecutive New England snowstorms I feel confident with the car. I have Michelin Arctic Alpin snow tires on it..I was thinking of switching to Blizzak WS-50's..Anyone have any experience with these tires?
Thanks,
SV
Blizak tires were not available when I got my LS last January. I have Dunlap Winter M3, which handle bettter on dry and wet pavement. They are marginally worse than Blizzak MZ02 on ice.
I'm just asking because according to the stats posted earlier, the newer models ride around 4dB quieter at 70 MPH.
I plan on buying a used LS430 to replace my GS400 here in another couple of years, and was wondering about that.
OM says if we leave a regular master SAK in the car, all sorts of problems can happen. Okay...got that. No prob.
But the *valet key* is my question. I have experimented and placed it in the glove compartment and all seems to work fine. No warning chimes, etc. We don't want to carry around two key fobs in purse or pockets and sometimes Valet Parking is spontaneous, serendipitous or unexpected.
OM says that if a SAK is left in the car too long ~ but I believe this is if the car is not driven for some period of time ~ it will wear the batteries down of the key and the car due to signals transmitted. I understand that concept.
OM also says don't put our regular every-day SAK in the glove box since signals won't reach each other. *That* is why I think the valet key is safe in there.
My big question is this: Can I leave that Valet Key in the glove compartment safely,,, all the time?
I'll appreciate any input and experience on this topic.
To the contrary, I think the LS manual is pretty pathetically written--it's probably my second biggest complaint about this car (#1 being the neverending NAV nag startup screen). It obviously was written in Japanese and then translated by someone whose primary language was not English! Clearly, many of the words chosen are actually synonyms of the correct word, but are not right. And verb tenses... well don't get me started. It might be a fun exercise to have people quote here what they believe is the worst written sentence in the manual.
You would think that for all the cars Lexus is selling, they could afford to hire a native-English speaker to edit the manuals!
On your specific question, the valet key is technologically the same as the regular Smart Key (the only difference being the valet key doesn't have a trunk opening button), so logically anything that is said about the regular key would apply to the valet key. I would be concerned about the battery wear issue and anomalies from signals passing between the key and the car sometimes but not other times, etc.
Besides, you ladies at least have the option to put the extra key in your purse-- we gents do not (but see previous messages #6762-6765 on this forum for a chuckle).
Enjoy your new wheels! I see in your profile that you also have a BMW 5 series in the family; I'd be interested to hear your comparison of the two vehicles after you've been driving the LS for a while.
What people may be confused about is interior noise versus outside isolation. The former is tested with the data these magazine provide while the latter is usually described verbally in the report; usually goes like ' how well the thick double-paned windows and heavy sheet metal buffer out the cobblestone streets....
Paul
The '05 seems like an incremental improvement over the last model..A few more toys for virtually the same price. The SmartKey and backup camera keep me amused..At least that irritating "Lexus Link is Active" message is gone..The Nav seems to be much better as well. It picked up a few obscure streets that I travel to in New Hampshire.
I like the new transmission and it seems to ride a little nicer. Lexus attributes that to a new shock design..Then again my last car had the Euro Sports Suspension, And I'm driving it on Snow tires..I can't wait until the spring to put the original 18" tires back on. For me it was mainly aesthetic reasons and price..I showed up on Christmas Eve about an hour before they were scheduled to close.I really wanted a 4 Matic S430 but wasn't able to get the deal I wanted..They wanted $31K plus my car..Seemed too much for a car with dubious reliability. (Would you believe they had a brand new leftover 2003 sitting there!)
I simply handed the Lexus dealer the invoice from my '02 LS430 purchase (from their chief competitor) and told them I wanted the same deal. (I paid $55.5K for that car with a list of $61.7) After arguing over the trade for some 30 minutes we made the deal..It was possibly the shortest negotiation I had in a long time..I started by contacting the various Internet sales departments
My new car had a list of about $62.7K and they sold it for $55K plus $37K for my car. Granted I could have sold it for maybe $40K, but it had been repainted so I didn't want to deal with that issue. It also needed new tires, extended warranty and the 30K service..I think I did okay on the deal.
There was no logical reason to get rid of the old car, $2K would have taken care of all of those issues..I just saw the '05 in Navy Blue/Ivory and just went for it. I felt I was getting a much better car than the S430 for nearly half the price..
Having had it for two weeks, I'm satisfied..My son polished and waxed it so it looks amazing..I haven't had a Blue car in a long time so I'm thrilled with the way it shines!
SV
I am not the principle driver of the BMW 530 but have driven it on occasion. I drove Volvos for over 14 years and can't tell much difference in the ride or handling with the BMW. To me, a european car's ride is the same, whether its Volvo or BMW---sporty but comfortable . . . firm and fun. Nice feeling of 'grip' of the road. Front seat cup holders are a joke.
When our last Volvo was sold and the BMW was acquired, and "musical cars" was over & done with 18 months ago, I had our '98 Toyota Avalon as the hand-me-down prior to acquiring this LS430 last month. Once I became accustomed to full power steering in the Avalon, I've gotten spoiled. Also, turning the ignition of that BMW is an uncomfortable (unnatural) wrist motion and I prefer to do it in a two-stage motion. Still a bother.
When I first test-drove the '05 LS430 in December I complained to the salesman that it was too soft a ride. You should have seen the incredulous look on his face, like, "what planet are you from?" <LOL>
I think I've seen the term "couchmobile" used in these forums and I finally understood what they mean. Next I test drove a used '02 LS430 and really preferred the ride, but it did not have heated seats (a must). Then I understood the difference in the shocks with the '05 LS.
I'm getting accustomed to the feel and ride of the LS. We call it "The Mother Ship" for lack of a better name. Beam me up, Scotty . . . . .
The LS ratings are usually around 9 or more. But the few ultra bad ratings drive the 05 LS down below 8.0. Perhaps you happy campers should head over there and make your voices heard. Bad ratings for a new car may have an effect on the marketplace and this is certainly a clearcut case of slamming.
I don't drive a 2005 so I honestly can't contribute a review and will not stoop to the tactics of the attack shills who are jealous that their beloved MBs are down in the dumps.
sv7887 - You're finding out what others here have said and confirming it further. Be glad you stayed away from MB - they are not having an easy time right now.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/10/automobiles/autospecial/10merce- des.html?oref=login
Maybe people here who are interested in pursuing that subject would like to join us in our High End Luxury Marques discussion - that is certainly one place where that topic is appropriate.
"Clearly, the early negative reviews here were entered by competing car dealers, not by bonafide owners. If that is how they hope to compete with Lexus, rather than by building reliable engineering into their cars, you can see why they are losing out."
Sounds like the cheap shot artists are at again in MSN, I think they have my review on my '92 and '02 LS..I'll have to add my take on the '05 too..Too bad that's all they've got to battle Lexus..Anytime I hear a single criticism about Lexus, I rollout my 1992 LS400 which looks and performs flawlessly to this day. In fact when I was back at the dealership to complete some paperwork on my new '05, I showed a prospective customer my '92 to indicate how well the cars hold up in time.
You can argue about handling and other subjective things till the cows come home..In every Objective measure, Lexus wins. And according to the sales numbers, it seems the public agrees. I find the Lexus bashing pathetic..I just think it's an attempt by owners of the other nameplates to somehow justify their purchase..I suppose the first step is denial!
SV
However, the Germans -- especially MB -- seem to think cachet and style is everything. Who do they think they are, Ferrari? [Growing up, I never thought of MB as the style leader in anything. It was the solidity that was so prized. I guess if there's no steak, you have to sell the sizzle.] The Europeans are stuck in a mindset that relies on name, style and history -- and expect us to tolerate high prices and poor reliability. Now is the time for Lexus -- and the domestics to make their move.
With luck, the next decade will be an exciting one for consumers.
garyh1 --- well, I agree with the translation issue. Anything that is translated is never going to be seamless. Even literature I have read that has been well translated will have the occasional odd phrase. It is a hazard of the trade. There *is* a really weird paragraph in the Smart Key chapter that I'm still trying to figure out...one of those "Information" boxes.
Don't get me started on that owners' manual. The index has a line item for Interior Lights but nothing for Exterior Lights. Okay . . . so how long do I hunt for that page about the puddle lights . . . I'm slowly putting little tabs and writing in the index my own additions for everyday stuff that was omitted in the index.
As for the pockets v.s. purses . . . when the OM clearly states do NOT store the smart key next to a cell phone and ladies only carry a purse (and often wear clothes with no pockets), one arrives at a real dilemma. Will the cell phone "kill" the smart key? If not in one day, how many days will it take?
The OM also says to keep the flat key thing with us at all times in case we lock the SK in the car. Allrighty . . . another transponder chip to carry around? With the Valey Key? Battling it out with my cellphone? Thank heavens I'm not paranoid about electronic fields and carrying all these devices.
But . . . I *do* like the paragraph in the OM that says 'SK may not work near TV transmission towers or in close proximity to other SKs' or somesuch info. Good thing I don't work for a TV station and don't attend Lexus conventions.
In September I was sitting at a lunch table with a woman whose cell phone kept "killing" her electronic hotel key (the credit card-looking type). She was on her 3rd hotel room key. Go figure. My own key didn't work upon returning to the hotel (it was a convention) because her purse was on the floor right next to mine.
So I wonder, if the OM says don't keep the Smart Key next to a cell phone. . .
There's one guy,"Chris" who used 2 different id#'s to bash this car to a 3 out of 10 rating-each time comparing it to a recycled Camry. He has driven down the overall rating of this car to an 8.
All other reviewers are in the high 9's.
If you bought or leased this car, please register at MSN autos and review the car.
Sounds like this guy Chris works for MB.
Anyone who feels that the Camry and the LS430 are related to each other in ANY way beside maybe one or two minor shared parts such as uh... the windshield wiper stalk *maybe* is just crazy. Much less if you were to actually drive the two.
Heck... even when I bring my GS400 in to the dealership and drive the ES330, which is admittedly very closely connected to the Camry, there's still a night and day difference (I say this with confidence especially since my parents have an 04 Camry XLE, loaded to the hilt, and after driving my ES330 loaner and realizing that option for option Lexus was only asking around 4500 more for it... they kind of wish they had gone for it. And they care nothing about brand name. Only substance.
Thanks also to SV7887 for putting up his positive review.
By the way, a number of our Forum regular participants are fighting for the LS' honor on the High End Luxury Marques forum. Check it out if you haven't already.
I've given up on that topic. I actually wish the German cars luck. But it is this sort of arrogance that has contributed to the gradual economic decline of Europe, Inc. This sort of snobbery: I know what's best for MB/BMW/Audi, and if the customers don't like it they can just leave, is exactly the sort of thinking that insulates German management from the realities of today.
Having just read Jonathan Mahler's book on Lexus, I am impressed by the fact that Toyota did not produce the car that their management originally wanted, nor the car that Japanese liked, but designed the LS so that it specifically satisfied the American car market. They targeted the sort of person who buys MB but wanted more, and in my opinion, they hit the bulls-eye.
In contrast, I remember Audi blaming drivers for the sudden acceleration problem and MB declaring that no one should have cup holders in their cars.
Now the mantra seems to be Style! Reliability is boring!
Frankly, if MB could only deliver a car with all the goodies they have but with Lexus reliability, they could easily charge $100K and grow their market share. But if they keep posting VW like numbers on the JD Powers rankings they WILL suffer -- maybe sooner than later. And excuses won't matter.
I complained about the guy from Germany who had the gall to say, "My LS430 doesn't corner as well as my M5" Are you serious? That's like comparing a 747 to a F-16...I don't even think the S Class would corner as well as an M5! I read that comment about the 300C owner..Ridiculous..That's like me comparing my LS with a Rolls Royce!
Jvcn,
I don't know about style...The latest German designs aren't very eye-catching. The only thing I'll give them is that most of their cars have a sleek profile..I personally find my LS430 a little bulky and wish Lexus would return to the original LS400's profile..It was a much better shape. I love all the "image" ads Mercedes has run in the recent past.(With all those people posed in front of their cars)"Unlike any Other.." If that's all they've got I feel sorry for them..
Sorry that's not enough to get me to pay an extra $14K for.. (LS vs S430 4 Matic) The sad thing is that they almost got me to trade in my '02 LS for a S..I got cold feet at spending $75K for a car I didn't have complete faith in..I also found their negotiation tactics very disingenuous..Constant games of subtracting discounts from the MSRP from the trade..
I'm just saying that's what the MB fans keep saying -- We have style. Lexus doesn't. Well I don't agree.
But even if we give them that. It's pathetic that a great marque like MB is reduced to selling their products on style and feel. Growing up, MB meant luxo-boxes. Stodgy but solid, beautifully built and reliable. Well, now, Lexus has them beat on that AND on price and it drives the Germanophiles nuts.
If you do find it is a radio problem...Lets us know and I will take my car in...It should be covered if you are under a warrenty.
Two by a Chris that were pure MB rants (Pro -"easy to replace Camry parts").
Another was by someone who said they only test drove the car before buying something else.
All three were removed as of this evening, and the true owners LS430 ratings are in the high 9's.
Question for you car mavens: Is the Lexus LS even sold in Germany? Or was this a put-on by a non-owner?